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A new twist on rroberts Free-Will/Omniscience

rroberts
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10/6/2013 10:11:06 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Having read and followed rroberts posts on free-will/omniscience and the various responses, I see as is usual the talk tends to drift far away from the original topic. I would like to propose a similar but not quite the same topic for discussion.

Suppose God wrote a secret message to me, Henry Smith, signed and sealed it and gave it to one of His angel/messengers who hid it in my coat pocket while I was out of the room. Now suppose I went to a nice restaurant and ordered and ate a fine chicken dinner. After my meal I reached for my usual after-meal cigar and in doing so found the sealed envelope. I open it and read it. It says:

Dear Henry,
Tonight at the restaurant you will order a nice chicken dinner.
Signed,
God

Well I think, God really knew my future. He predicted my meal right on. Just another proof of his omniscience. Then as I puff my cigar a disturbing thought develops in my mind. Suppose I had found the letter and read it before ordering my meal. Would my free will have allowed me to order beef instead ? Opinions??
rr
cgamble
Posts: 2
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10/6/2013 10:44:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
That is a real puzzler. If I have free will I should be able to order beef. But then God would have made a mistake in saying chicken. God can't make mistakes. And I don't think the writing in the envelope would change by magic, so........?????
laocmo
Posts: 18
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10/6/2013 10:58:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm still trying to see the error in the original post. It seems to obey all the laws of logic I learned in college. And the long winded arguments against it are not at all enlightening. If the logic is incorrect I should think it could be refuted in a few words as was the original speculation given. If I remember, the common logical fallacies had simple refutations in my logic book.
slo1
Posts: 4,309
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10/6/2013 12:05:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/6/2013 10:11:06 AM, rroberts wrote:
Having read and followed rroberts posts on free-will/omniscience and the various responses, I see as is usual the talk tends to drift far away from the original topic. I would like to propose a similar but not quite the same topic for discussion.

Suppose God wrote a secret message to me, Henry Smith, signed and sealed it and gave it to one of His angel/messengers who hid it in my coat pocket while I was out of the room. Now suppose I went to a nice restaurant and ordered and ate a fine chicken dinner. After my meal I reached for my usual after-meal cigar and in doing so found the sealed envelope. I open it and read it. It says:

Dear Henry,
Tonight at the restaurant you will order a nice chicken dinner.
Signed,
God

Well I think, God really knew my future. He predicted my meal right on. Just another proof of his omniscience. Then as I puff my cigar a disturbing thought develops in my mind. Suppose I had found the letter and read it before ordering my meal. Would my free will have allowed me to order beef instead ? Opinions??

Just because you order beef in the second scenario does not mean there is free will. The act of seeing the note bring in a new experience and information that when coupled with your past experience and genetics will result in a predetermined, predictable response.

Secondly, the underlining assumption of omnipotent God allows for God knowing whether you would see the note before or after the meal. Why speculate on an possibility when it truly is not a possibility? It just brings in a logic paradox which is nonsensical such as can god create a stone so heavy he can lift it.
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.
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bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/6/2013 4:20:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/6/2013 10:11:06 AM, rroberts wrote:
Having read and followed rroberts posts on free-will/omniscience and the various responses, I see as is usual the talk tends to drift far away from the original topic. I would like to propose a similar but not quite the same topic for discussion.

Suppose God wrote a secret message to me, Henry Smith, signed and sealed it and gave it to one of His angel/messengers who hid it in my coat pocket while I was out of the room. Now suppose I went to a nice restaurant and ordered and ate a fine chicken dinner. After my meal I reached for my usual after-meal cigar and in doing so found the sealed envelope. I open it and read it. It says:

Dear Henry,
Tonight at the restaurant you will order a nice chicken dinner.
Signed,
God

Well I think, God really knew my future. He predicted my meal right on. Just another proof of his omniscience. Then as I puff my cigar a disturbing thought develops in my mind. Suppose I had found the letter and read it before ordering my meal. Would my free will have allowed me to order beef instead ? Opinions??

God has given me the knowledge of when, where and how I will be killed. There's no way possible I'll be able to change the will of our Creator who planned the death of my body as well as the births and deaths of all flesh in this world.
cgamble
Posts: 2
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10/7/2013 8:11:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"(If) God has given me the knowledge of when, where and how I will be killed. There's no way possible I'll be able to change the will of our Creator who planned the death of my body as well as the births and deaths of all flesh in this world."

This is denying you have free will.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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10/7/2013 8:26:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

Then answer the question. God appears out of know where and says: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow."

Can you then order beef instead?
v3nesl
Posts: 4,463
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10/7/2013 9:50:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/6/2013 10:11:06 AM, rroberts wrote:
Having read and followed rroberts posts on free-will/omniscience and the various responses, I see as is usual the talk tends to drift far away from the original topic. I would like to propose a similar but not quite the same topic for discussion.

Suppose God wrote a secret message to me, Henry Smith, signed and sealed it and gave it to one of His angel/messengers who hid it in my coat pocket while I was out of the room. Now suppose I went to a nice restaurant and ordered and ate a fine chicken dinner. After my meal I reached for my usual after-meal cigar and in doing so found the sealed envelope. I open it and read it. It says:

Dear Henry,
Tonight at the restaurant you will order a nice chicken dinner.
Signed,
God

Well I think, God really knew my future. He predicted my meal right on. Just another proof of his omniscience. Then as I puff my cigar a disturbing thought develops in my mind. Suppose I had found the letter and read it before ordering my meal. Would my free will have allowed me to order beef instead ? Opinions??

To just sort of throw in a thought, without directly taking on the excellent question: I see free will as limited. This was expressed by Jesus: "Which of you, by taking thought, can add one cubit to his height?" So, at least in a Christian context, free will and predestination are not peers, there's a hierarchy there. I have an illustration from parenting: At some point I figured out I could get better cooperation from my kids when I gave them choices. So, if I wanted them to put a shirt on I didn't say "Go put a shirt on! Because I said so!", I'd say "So, what color shirt would you like to wear today?" Sneaky. So my boy got genuine free will, but it still served my predestination of him getting dressed.
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v3nesl
Posts: 4,463
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10/7/2013 9:54:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 8:26:17 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

Then answer the question. God appears out of know where and says: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow."

Can you then order beef instead?

Yes, you can. But you won't. The restaurant will probably be out of it anyway, or else topless PETA protestors will distract you.
This space for rent.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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10/7/2013 10:17:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 9:54:59 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/7/2013 8:26:17 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

Then answer the question. God appears out of know where and says: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow."

Can you then order beef instead?

Yes, you can. But you won't. The restaurant will probably be out of it anyway, or else topless PETA protestors will distract you.

So it's logically possible for me to choose beef when god knows I will choose chicken? There exists some possible universe where I chose beef in contradiction to God's prediction that I would choose chicken?
v3nesl
Posts: 4,463
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10/7/2013 11:17:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 10:17:24 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 10/7/2013 9:54:59 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/7/2013 8:26:17 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

Then answer the question. God appears out of know where and says: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow."

Can you then order beef instead?

Yes, you can. But you won't. The restaurant will probably be out of it anyway, or else topless PETA protestors will distract you.

So it's logically possible for me to choose beef when god knows I will choose chicken? There exists some possible universe where I chose beef in contradiction to God's prediction that I would choose chicken?

No, not if you went to Chick-Fil-A.
This space for rent.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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10/7/2013 11:26:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 11:17:30 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/7/2013 10:17:24 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 10/7/2013 9:54:59 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/7/2013 8:26:17 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

Then answer the question. God appears out of know where and says: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow."

Can you then order beef instead?

Yes, you can. But you won't. The restaurant will probably be out of it anyway, or else topless PETA protestors will distract you.

So it's logically possible for me to choose beef when god knows I will choose chicken? There exists some possible universe where I chose beef in contradiction to God's prediction that I would choose chicken?

No, not if you went to Chick-Fil-A.

So how can you say I "can" do it while at the same time saying it isn't logically possible? How can I do something that isn't logically possible?
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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10/7/2013 12:23:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 8:26:17 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

Then answer the question. God appears out of know where and says: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow."

Can you then order beef instead?

Well, if God appeared out of nowhere and said "I know you will order chicken tomorrow" that is just a statement. God would know OP's reaction to that statement as well. If OP's reaction is then to choose beef, then God would have already known that. If OP's reaction was to listen to God and choose chicken then God would have known that as well. If God wanted to he can put another secret message in OP's wallet, so when OP goes to pay for the meal it will say, "I knew you would order Beef (or whatever) all along." If thoughts and actions really are completely deterministic then I don't see why this is a problem. God is not forcing or limiting OP's choices, he is just predicting them. It is like me predicting that a hobo will pick up a hundred dollar bill I placed on the sidewalk. The hobo can choose to pick it up or not, but you can see from his situation it makes it extremely likely that the hobo will pick it up. An Omniscient God does this but with 100% certainty.
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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10/7/2013 12:29:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 12:23:09 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 10/7/2013 8:26:17 AM, drafterman wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

Then answer the question. God appears out of know where and says: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow."

Can you then order beef instead?

Well, if God appeared out of nowhere and said "I know you will order chicken tomorrow" that is just a statement. God would know OP's reaction to that statement as well. If OP's reaction is then to choose beef, then God would have already known that. If OP's reaction was to listen to God and choose chicken then God would have known that as well. If God wanted to he can put another secret message in OP's wallet, so when OP goes to pay for the meal it will say, "I knew you would order Beef (or whatever) all along." If thoughts and actions really are completely deterministic then I don't see why this is a problem. God is not forcing or limiting OP's choices, he is just predicting them. It is like me predicting that a hobo will pick up a hundred dollar bill I placed on the sidewalk. The hobo can choose to pick it up or not, but you can see from his situation it makes it extremely likely that the hobo will pick it up. An Omniscient God does this but with 100% certainty.

"If OP's reaction is then to choose beef, then God would have already known that."

Then God lied when he said: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow"?

Recognize that the statement isn't "just a statement," it is an expression of God's supposed infallible foreknowledge. As a premise of the argument, it can't be false.

Now, people bring up issues of causality and limitation and those are red herrings. No one is saying that God's foreknowledge, in itself, "causes" or "limits" Free Will. Rather it is merely the fact that they can't coexist. Whatever configuration of reality is such that Free Will exists, then foreknowledge cannot, and vice versa. That is the incompatibilist view. No attributions of limitation to foreknowledge are being made or are required.
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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10/7/2013 12:54:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago

"If OP's reaction is then to choose beef, then God would have already known that."

Then God lied when he said: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow"?

Yup.

Recognize that the statement isn't "just a statement," it is an expression of God's supposed infallible foreknowledge. As a premise of the argument, it can't be false.

If God is infallible, he can still lie. We can't just assume everything he says to us is true. He may be manipulating us, or telling us something that will ultimately help or hurt us. We can never know if what he is saying is actually the truth or not until it happens. If it so happens that what he said was false, then perhaps he was lying to have us react in a certain way. We are assuming he is completely omniscient already.

Now, people bring up issues of causality and limitation and those are red herrings. No one is saying that God's foreknowledge, in itself, "causes" or "limits" Free Will. Rather it is merely the fact that they can't coexist. Whatever configuration of reality is such that Free Will exists, then foreknowledge cannot, and vice versa. That is the incompatibilist view. No attributions of limitation to foreknowledge are being made or are required.

This heavily depends on the definition of free will. If the universe is completely deterministic (as it must be for God to be omniscient) then we don't have any free will, it is just an illusion. If the universe, and by extension our own thoughts and actions are not deterministic then God cannot be omniscient, as our thoughts and actions are unpredictable. The former seems more likely, as human actions are quite limited and seem to be more predictable as knowledge of the situation and the person increases.
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drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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10/7/2013 12:56:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 12:54:22 PM, Orangatang wrote:

"If OP's reaction is then to choose beef, then God would have already known that."

Then God lied when he said: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow"?

Yup.

Recognize that the statement isn't "just a statement," it is an expression of God's supposed infallible foreknowledge. As a premise of the argument, it can't be false.

If God is infallible, he can still lie. We can't just assume everything he says to us is true. He may be manipulating us, or telling us something that will ultimately help or hurt us. We can never know if what he is saying is actually the truth or not until it happens. If it so happens that what he said was false, then perhaps he was lying to have us react in a certain way. We are assuming he is completely omniscient already.

It's a given of the argument that the statement is true. The point of the argument is to investigate the relationship between Free Will and Omniscience, and the truthfulness of the statement is a given to be taken for granted.


Now, people bring up issues of causality and limitation and those are red herrings. No one is saying that God's foreknowledge, in itself, "causes" or "limits" Free Will. Rather it is merely the fact that they can't coexist. Whatever configuration of reality is such that Free Will exists, then foreknowledge cannot, and vice versa. That is the incompatibilist view. No attributions of limitation to foreknowledge are being made or are required.

This heavily depends on the definition of free will. If the universe is completely deterministic (as it must be for God to be omniscient) then we don't have any free will, it is just an illusion. If the universe, and by extension our own thoughts and actions are not deterministic then God cannot be omniscient, as our thoughts and actions are unpredictable. The former seems more likely, as human actions are quite limited and seem to be more predictable as knowledge of the situation and the person increases.

...

Ok. So you're an incompatiblist and you agree. So why are you disagreeing?
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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10/7/2013 1:18:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 12:56:25 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 10/7/2013 12:54:22 PM, Orangatang wrote:

"If OP's reaction is then to choose beef, then God would have already known that."

Then God lied when he said: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow"?

Yup.

Recognize that the statement isn't "just a statement," it is an expression of God's supposed infallible foreknowledge. As a premise of the argument, it can't be false.

If God is infallible, he can still lie. We can't just assume everything he says to us is true. He may be manipulating us, or telling us something that will ultimately help or hurt us. We can never know if what he is saying is actually the truth or not until it happens. If it so happens that what he said was false, then perhaps he was lying to have us react in a certain way. We are assuming he is completely omniscient already.

It's a given of the argument that the statement is true. The point of the argument is to investigate the relationship between Free Will and Omniscience, and the truthfulness of the statement is a given to be taken for granted.

Oh, well I wasn't told that what God says must be true and that he is incapable of lying. If that is the case, and God cannot lie then yes OP will in the end, choose chicken. OP will be the kind of person that follows along with God's prediction, or OP's situation will be such that the restaurant only has chicken available. Still does not mean God is limiting the choices of OP, rather just predicting OP's ultimate choice on the matter.


Now, people bring up issues of causality and limitation and those are red herrings. No one is saying that God's foreknowledge, in itself, "causes" or "limits" Free Will. Rather it is merely the fact that they can't coexist. Whatever configuration of reality is such that Free Will exists, then foreknowledge cannot, and vice versa. That is the incompatibilist view. No attributions of limitation to foreknowledge are being made or are required.

This heavily depends on the definition of free will. If the universe is completely deterministic (as it must be for God to be omniscient) then we don't have any free will, it is just an illusion. If the universe, and by extension our own thoughts and actions are not deterministic then God cannot be omniscient, as our thoughts and actions are unpredictable. The former seems more likely, as human actions are quite limited and seem to be more predictable as knowledge of the situation and the person increases.

...

Ok. So you're an incompatiblist and you agree. So why are you disagreeing?

I'm just clearing up the air, showing omniscience is totally compatible with the colloquial understanding of free will.
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drafterman
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10/7/2013 1:21:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 1:18:15 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 10/7/2013 12:56:25 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 10/7/2013 12:54:22 PM, Orangatang wrote:

"If OP's reaction is then to choose beef, then God would have already known that."

Then God lied when he said: "I know you will order chicken tomorrow"?

Yup.

Recognize that the statement isn't "just a statement," it is an expression of God's supposed infallible foreknowledge. As a premise of the argument, it can't be false.

If God is infallible, he can still lie. We can't just assume everything he says to us is true. He may be manipulating us, or telling us something that will ultimately help or hurt us. We can never know if what he is saying is actually the truth or not until it happens. If it so happens that what he said was false, then perhaps he was lying to have us react in a certain way. We are assuming he is completely omniscient already.

It's a given of the argument that the statement is true. The point of the argument is to investigate the relationship between Free Will and Omniscience, and the truthfulness of the statement is a given to be taken for granted.

Oh, well I wasn't told that what God says must be true and that he is incapable of lying. If that is the case, and God cannot lie then yes OP will in the end, choose chicken. OP will be the kind of person that follows along with God's prediction, or OP's situation will be such that the restaurant only has chicken available. Still does not mean God is limiting the choices of OP, rather just predicting OP's ultimate choice on the matter.

Again no one is saying that God is limiting anything. Why do you keep addressing this when no one is asserting it?



Now, people bring up issues of causality and limitation and those are red herrings. No one is saying that God's foreknowledge, in itself, "causes" or "limits" Free Will. Rather it is merely the fact that they can't coexist. Whatever configuration of reality is such that Free Will exists, then foreknowledge cannot, and vice versa. That is the incompatibilist view. No attributions of limitation to foreknowledge are being made or are required.

This heavily depends on the definition of free will. If the universe is completely deterministic (as it must be for God to be omniscient) then we don't have any free will, it is just an illusion. If the universe, and by extension our own thoughts and actions are not deterministic then God cannot be omniscient, as our thoughts and actions are unpredictable. The former seems more likely, as human actions are quite limited and seem to be more predictable as knowledge of the situation and the person increases.

...

Ok. So you're an incompatiblist and you agree. So why are you disagreeing?

I'm just clearing up the air, showing omniscience is totally compatible with the colloquial understanding of free will.
s-anthony
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10/7/2013 1:35:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

God not only knows the future but, also, created the future. Everything that exists, according to most religions, was created by God. So, any weakness or imperfection in God's design was intentionally placed there by God.
Orangatang
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10/7/2013 1:41:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago

Again no one is saying that God is limiting anything. Why do you keep addressing this when no one is asserting it?

I am answering OP's question in a relevant way that may help him make sense of the argument. I am saying this carefully because many people confused about this subject are unsure about the whole limiting/causal relation between omniscience and free will (or it's illusion).
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Orangatang
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10/7/2013 1:42:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 1:35:17 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

God not only knows the future but, also, created the future. Everything that exists, according to most religions, was created by God. So, any weakness or imperfection in God's design was intentionally placed there by God.

Agreed, if we assume God exists, he created the universe, and he his omniscient.
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s-anthony
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10/7/2013 1:53:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 1:42:20 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:35:17 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

God not only knows the future but, also, created the future. Everything that exists, according to most religions, was created by God. So, any weakness or imperfection in God's design was intentionally placed there by God.

Agreed, if we assume God exists, he created the universe, and he his omniscient.

I agree God exists, and I agree God is omniscient; but, I don't believe God created anything; I'm a pantheist.
Orangatang
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10/7/2013 2:06:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 1:53:16 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:42:20 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:35:17 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

God not only knows the future but, also, created the future. Everything that exists, according to most religions, was created by God. So, any weakness or imperfection in God's design was intentionally placed there by God.

Agreed, if we assume God exists, he created the universe, and he his omniscient.

I agree God exists, and I agree God is omniscient; but, I don't believe God created anything; I'm a pantheist.

Ok, so you think God is synonymous with the universe? If so in what way is the universe omniscient? Just curious here.
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s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/7/2013 2:19:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 2:06:48 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:53:16 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:42:20 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:35:17 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

God not only knows the future but, also, created the future. Everything that exists, according to most religions, was created by God. So, any weakness or imperfection in God's design was intentionally placed there by God.

Agreed, if we assume God exists, he created the universe, and he his omniscient.

I agree God exists, and I agree God is omniscient; but, I don't believe God created anything; I'm a pantheist.

Ok, so you think God is synonymous with the universe? If so in what way is the universe omniscient? Just curious here.

Sentience exists in the Universe, and God is the Universe; so, God contains all sentience.
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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10/7/2013 2:32:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 2:19:57 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/7/2013 2:06:48 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:53:16 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:42:20 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:35:17 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

God not only knows the future but, also, created the future. Everything that exists, according to most religions, was created by God. So, any weakness or imperfection in God's design was intentionally placed there by God.

Agreed, if we assume God exists, he created the universe, and he his omniscient.

I agree God exists, and I agree God is omniscient; but, I don't believe God created anything; I'm a pantheist.

Ok, so you think God is synonymous with the universe? If so in what way is the universe omniscient? Just curious here.

Sentience exists in the Universe, and God is the Universe; so, God contains all sentience.

I see, but certainly all sentience, at least as far as we see with humans is not omniscient, not even close. And why set God as the name for the universe? There is already a name for the universe, God carries unnecessary baggage.
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bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/7/2013 2:40:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 8:11:38 AM, cgamble wrote:
"(If) God has given me the knowledge of when, where and how I will be killed. There's no way possible I'll be able to change the will of our Creator who planned the death of my body as well as the births and deaths of all flesh in this world."

This is denying you have free will.

I've never had free will in the will of our Creator. Men don't understand who they are in the mind of our Creator as wavelengths of energy that doesn't require space, time or mass. They can only see, hear, taste, smell and touch processed wavelengths of energy that gives us the illusions of a defined world.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/7/2013 3:42:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/7/2013 2:32:42 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 10/7/2013 2:19:57 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/7/2013 2:06:48 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:53:16 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:42:20 PM, Orangatang wrote:
At 10/7/2013 1:35:17 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/6/2013 1:50:49 PM, Orangatang wrote:
Knowing an action that one will perform in the future is not equivalent to causing that action. If God did know everything that could possibly happen in a deterministic sense, this does not mean he takes away any of our free will, rather he just knows what actions we will choose big difference. Free will and omniscience are compatible.

God not only knows the future but, also, created the future. Everything that exists, according to most religions, was created by God. So, any weakness or imperfection in God's design was intentionally placed there by God.

Agreed, if we assume God exists, he created the universe, and he his omniscient.

I agree God exists, and I agree God is omniscient; but, I don't believe God created anything; I'm a pantheist.

Ok, so you think God is synonymous with the universe? If so in what way is the universe omniscient? Just curious here.

Sentience exists in the Universe, and God is the Universe; so, God contains all sentience.

I see, but certainly all sentience, at least as far as we see with humans is not omniscient, not even close. And why set God as the name for the universe? There is already a name for the universe, God carries unnecessary baggage.

If there were one bank that contained all the world's currencies, it would not be accurate to say the bank had only five U.S. dollars, or ten-thousand British pounds, or 150 Indian rupees, but the bank had all the money in the world.

Personally, I have no problems with the terminology you choose to use; the reason I choose to equate the Universe with God is to emphasize the fact I don't see the Universe as made up of a collection of unrelated parts but, rather, an interconnected, contiguous whole.
Orangatang
Posts: 442
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10/7/2013 5:19:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I see, but certainly all sentience, at least as far as we see with humans is not omniscient, not even close. And why set God as the name for the universe? There is already a name for the universe, God carries unnecessary baggage.

If there were one bank that contained all the world's currencies, it would not be accurate to say the bank had only five U.S. dollars, or ten-thousand British pounds, or 150 Indian rupees, but the bank had all the money in the world.

Personally, I have no problems with the terminology you choose to use; the reason I choose to equate the Universe with God is to emphasize the fact I don't see the Universe as made up of a collection of unrelated parts but, rather, an interconnected, contiguous whole.

You can believe that as many do, without calling it God. Seems like your basically an atheist without the conviction to leave the term God (like pretty much all pantheists).
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Naysayer
Posts: 746
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10/7/2013 6:27:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/6/2013 10:11:06 AM, rroberts wrote:
Having read and followed rroberts posts on free-will/omniscience and the various responses, I see as is usual the talk tends to drift far away from the original topic. I would like to propose a similar but not quite the same topic for discussion.

Suppose God wrote a secret message to me, Henry Smith, signed and sealed it and gave it to one of His angel/messengers who hid it in my coat pocket while I was out of the room. Now suppose I went to a nice restaurant and ordered and ate a fine chicken dinner. After my meal I reached for my usual after-meal cigar and in doing so found the sealed envelope. I open it and read it. It says:

Dear Henry,
Tonight at the restaurant you will order a nice chicken dinner.
Signed,
God

Well I think, God really knew my future. He predicted my meal right on. Just another proof of his omniscience. Then as I puff my cigar a disturbing thought develops in my mind. Suppose I had found the letter and read it before ordering my meal. Would my free will have allowed me to order beef instead ? Opinions??

You are assuming that reality is fluid. You're speaking as if God is identifying what may happen when what He is saying is what will happen.

This does not mean He made you chose. It means He called you on your choice. Reading the letter doesn't have to affect the future because He took into account whether you would or would not read it and how it would affect you. Knowing is not dictating.