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The Never Changing God

s-anthony
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10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/9/2013 3:46:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

God only created space, time and dimensions as illusions for His created "beings" to have a defined world to live in. There's no such thing as space, time or dimensions in the mind of our Creator or in the wavelengths that He spoke into existence. Energy doesn't require space, time or dimensions.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/9/2013 6:54:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Not only is it meaningless, it is metaphysically impossible. If God created space and time, then this entails a change in God. God went from:

a) A state of not creating the universe

to

b) a state of creating the universe

However, change presupposes time! Thus, the idea of an atemporal creator is nonsense. The only way out of this problem is William Lane Craig's view that God places himself within time at the moment of creation. However, that means that God is temporal. His atemporality only holds as no universe exists (assuming time started when the universe did of course), but as the universe begins to exist God places himself in this temporal domain.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/9/2013 10:36:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/9/2013 6:54:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Not only is it meaningless, it is metaphysically impossible. If God created space and time, then this entails a change in God. God went from:

a) A state of not creating the universe

to

b) a state of creating the universe

However, change presupposes time! Thus, the idea of an atemporal creator is nonsense. The only way out of this problem is William Lane Craig's view that God places himself within time at the moment of creation. However, that means that God is temporal. His atemporality only holds as no universe exists (assuming time started when the universe did of course), but as the universe begins to exist God places himself in this temporal domain.

I see time and space intrinsically contingent on sentience and sentience intrinsically contingent on time and space. However, looking at the Universe, as a whole, can we say it is self-aware? An unbroken existence, in the middle of a void. It sounds meaningless, (as a pantheist) for me, to ascribe to it the property of self-awareness. Yet, its constituents do have the property of being self-aware. Though many varied undulations of consciousness exist, not unlike an ocean the Universe is yet one; and, being one there is no division in substance.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/10/2013 12:13:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

I don't blame you, for a being that is completely dependent on time and space...

If God was dependent of time he would then need a cause , and if he was limited in space, he wouldn't be God.

God is what causes time and space to be.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/10/2013 12:16:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/9/2013 6:54:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Not only is it meaningless, it is metaphysically impossible. If God created space and time, then this entails a change in God. God went from:

a) A state of not creating the universe

to

b) a state of creating the universe

However, change presupposes time! Thus, the idea of an atemporal creator is nonsense. The only way out of this problem is William Lane Craig's view that God places himself within time at the moment of creation. However, that means that God is temporal. His atemporality only holds as no universe exists (assuming time started when the universe did of course), but as the universe begins to exist God places himself in this temporal domain.

Time : the possibility for events to occur.

Events exist because God exist.

Time exists because God exist.

It's not really a creation, but an attribute.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/10/2013 12:46:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 12:16:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/9/2013 6:54:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Not only is it meaningless, it is metaphysically impossible. If God created space and time, then this entails a change in God. God went from:

a) A state of not creating the universe

to

b) a state of creating the universe

However, change presupposes time! Thus, the idea of an atemporal creator is nonsense. The only way out of this problem is William Lane Craig's view that God places himself within time at the moment of creation. However, that means that God is temporal. His atemporality only holds as no universe exists (assuming time started when the universe did of course), but as the universe begins to exist God places himself in this temporal domain.

Time : the possibility for events to occur.

Events exist because God exist.

Prove it.


Time exists because God exist.

Prove it.

It's not really a creation, but an attribute.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/10/2013 12:49:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 12:46:38 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/10/2013 12:16:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/9/2013 6:54:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Not only is it meaningless, it is metaphysically impossible. If God created space and time, then this entails a change in God. God went from:

a) A state of not creating the universe

to

b) a state of creating the universe

However, change presupposes time! Thus, the idea of an atemporal creator is nonsense. The only way out of this problem is William Lane Craig's view that God places himself within time at the moment of creation. However, that means that God is temporal. His atemporality only holds as no universe exists (assuming time started when the universe did of course), but as the universe begins to exist God places himself in this temporal domain.

Time : the possibility for events to occur.

Events exist because God exist.

Prove it.


Time exists because God exist.

Prove it.

It's not really a creation, but an attribute.

Well not here, was just showing it follows and makes a sense that God is eternal (infinite past).

To start with, do you agree with my definition of time or you have a better one ?
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/10/2013 9:19:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 12:13:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

I don't blame you, for a being that is completely dependent on time and space...

If God was dependent of time he would then need a cause , and if he was limited in space, he wouldn't be God.

God is what causes time and space to be.

My question has always been, how can that which is timeless and spaceless give birth to time and space.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/10/2013 9:23:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 12:16:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/9/2013 6:54:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Not only is it meaningless, it is metaphysically impossible. If God created space and time, then this entails a change in God. God went from:

a) A state of not creating the universe

to

b) a state of creating the universe

However, change presupposes time! Thus, the idea of an atemporal creator is nonsense. The only way out of this problem is William Lane Craig's view that God places himself within time at the moment of creation. However, that means that God is temporal. His atemporality only holds as no universe exists (assuming time started when the universe did of course), but as the universe begins to exist God places himself in this temporal domain.

Time : the possibility for events to occur.

Events exist because God exist.

Time exists because God exist.

It's not really a creation, but an attribute.

So, you're saying God is temporal?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/10/2013 9:43:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Yes, it does, and in some respects is.

God is an immortal spirit who inhabits a realm completely different to our own, and not part of our physical universe.

In that sense he is indeed outside space and time, our physical time at least.

However that does not men that his realm, dimension, call it what you will, does not have it's own time, and he is certainly affected by time, if only in relation to his plans for us, and his means of making sure that they come about.

Certainly, to him and his spirit creation distance on earth or even the universe is of little consequence, however scripture indicate that time almost certainly is not.

Scripture tells us of prayers being answered instantly, even before the one making them has had time to actually vocalise them. ON the other hand it recounts at least one occasion in which an angel, despatched to answer a prayer, was delayed for some time in his journey there by opposition from a "Prince of Persia" who was undoubtedly in fact a demon backing the Persian powers. No human would possess such power.

I sometimes visualise our universe as an enormous "goldfish bowl" with our creator and his Angels watching what is happening from outside it. How accurate that visualisation is I have no idea, however we are most definitely under observation by the "fish-keeper" who set up the "Goldfish bowl" in the first place, and he is guiding his "fish" in the same way a human fish-keeper cares for his tanks or bowls, just tweaking things as needed.

I see us as the prize fish in his tank.

To some I don't doubt that is as meaningless as your ideas, maybe more so.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/10/2013 2:17:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 9:43:16 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Yes, it does, and in some respects is.

God is an immortal spirit who inhabits a realm completely different to our own, and not part of our physical universe.

Sorry, but, first of all, how does a nonphysical being inhabit anything?

Secondly, if God inhabits a realm other than our own and is not apart of the physical Universe, how are we even conscious of God's existence?


In that sense he is indeed outside space and time, our physical time at least.

However that does not men that his realm, dimension, call it what you will, does not have it's own time, and he is certainly affected by time, if only in relation to his plans for us, and his means of making sure that they come about.

So, being affected by time would mean God is temporal. Is that correct?


Certainly, to him and his spirit creation distance on earth or even the universe is of little consequence, however scripture indicate that time almost certainly is not.

Scripture tells us of prayers being answered instantly, even before the one making them has had time to actually vocalise them. ON the other hand it recounts at least one occasion in which an angel, despatched to answer a prayer, was delayed for some time in his journey there by opposition from a "Prince of Persia" who was undoubtedly in fact a demon backing the Persian powers. No human would possess such power.

I sometimes visualise our universe as an enormous "goldfish bowl" with our creator and his Angels watching what is happening from outside it. How accurate that visualisation is I have no idea, however we are most definitely under observation by the "fish-keeper" who set up the "Goldfish bowl" in the first place, and he is guiding his "fish" in the same way a human fish-keeper cares for his tanks or bowls, just tweaking things as needed.

I see us as the prize fish in his tank.

To some I don't doubt that is as meaningless as your ideas, maybe more so.

God is not apart of our World but controls it, nonetheless?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/10/2013 5:00:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 2:17:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:43:16 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Yes, it does, and in some respects is.

God is an immortal spirit who inhabits a realm completely different to our own, and not part of our physical universe.

Sorry, but, first of all, how does a nonphysical being inhabit anything?

Secondly, if God inhabits a realm other than our own and is not apart of the physical Universe, how are we even conscious of God's existence?


In that sense he is indeed outside space and time, our physical time at least.

However that does not men that his realm, dimension, call it what you will, does not have it's own time, and he is certainly affected by time, if only in relation to his plans for us, and his means of making sure that they come about.

So, being affected by time would mean God is temporal. Is that correct?


Certainly, to him and his spirit creation distance on earth or even the universe is of little consequence, however scripture indicate that time almost certainly is not.

Scripture tells us of prayers being answered instantly, even before the one making them has had time to actually vocalise them. ON the other hand it recounts at least one occasion in which an angel, despatched to answer a prayer, was delayed for some time in his journey there by opposition from a "Prince of Persia" who was undoubtedly in fact a demon backing the Persian powers. No human would possess such power.

I sometimes visualise our universe as an enormous "goldfish bowl" with our creator and his Angels watching what is happening from outside it. How accurate that visualisation is I have no idea, however we are most definitely under observation by the "fish-keeper" who set up the "Goldfish bowl" in the first place, and he is guiding his "fish" in the same way a human fish-keeper cares for his tanks or bowls, just tweaking things as needed.

I see us as the prize fish in his tank.

To some I don't doubt that is as meaningless as your ideas, maybe more so.

God is not apart of our World but controls it, nonetheless?

In fact at this time it is Satan who is in charge of this world, though not for much longer now. His opportunity to prove his Challenge is almost up.

When Christ is in control things will be very different, and by the time he hands the kingdom back to his father even more different still.

There will be no death.

There will be no more sickness.

There will be no more war.

There will be no more famine or drought.

The earth will be returned to the pristine state of the Garden of Eden.

Sorting all that out will start in the near future.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/10/2013 5:19:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 5:00:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/10/2013 2:17:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:43:16 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Yes, it does, and in some respects is.

God is an immortal spirit who inhabits a realm completely different to our own, and not part of our physical universe.

Sorry, but, first of all, how does a nonphysical being inhabit anything?

Secondly, if God inhabits a realm other than our own and is not apart of the physical Universe, how are we even conscious of God's existence?


In that sense he is indeed outside space and time, our physical time at least.

However that does not men that his realm, dimension, call it what you will, does not have it's own time, and he is certainly affected by time, if only in relation to his plans for us, and his means of making sure that they come about.

So, being affected by time would mean God is temporal. Is that correct?


Certainly, to him and his spirit creation distance on earth or even the universe is of little consequence, however scripture indicate that time almost certainly is not.

Scripture tells us of prayers being answered instantly, even before the one making them has had time to actually vocalise them. ON the other hand it recounts at least one occasion in which an angel, despatched to answer a prayer, was delayed for some time in his journey there by opposition from a "Prince of Persia" who was undoubtedly in fact a demon backing the Persian powers. No human would possess such power.

I sometimes visualise our universe as an enormous "goldfish bowl" with our creator and his Angels watching what is happening from outside it. How accurate that visualisation is I have no idea, however we are most definitely under observation by the "fish-keeper" who set up the "Goldfish bowl" in the first place, and he is guiding his "fish" in the same way a human fish-keeper cares for his tanks or bowls, just tweaking things as needed.

I see us as the prize fish in his tank.

To some I don't doubt that is as meaningless as your ideas, maybe more so.

God is not apart of our World but controls it, nonetheless?

In fact at this time it is Satan who is in charge of this world, though not for much longer now. His opportunity to prove his Challenge is almost up.

When Christ is in control things will be very different, and by the time he hands the kingdom back to his father even more different still.

There will be no death.

There will be no more sickness.

There will be no more war.

There will be no more famine or drought.

The earth will be returned to the pristine state of the Garden of Eden.

Sorting all that out will start in the near future.

God is the Creator of ALL things including the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is God's created delusion during this age to deceive His people from knowing Him and His eternal plan. This delusion also has other symbolic names like Lucifer, devil, satan, false prophet, antichrist, wicked, flesh of man, etc.

You believe in the religious delusion that comes from the beast where all religions and false gods come from. This plan of God's taught men how to build things with their hands until the modern technology was in place to learn about our invisible created existence that we know as energy today.

This technology was planned and created by our Creator before any visible things could be seen by our flesh.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/10/2013 5:27:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 5:00:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/10/2013 2:17:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:43:16 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Yes, it does, and in some respects is.

God is an immortal spirit who inhabits a realm completely different to our own, and not part of our physical universe.

Sorry, but, first of all, how does a nonphysical being inhabit anything?

Secondly, if God inhabits a realm other than our own and is not apart of the physical Universe, how are we even conscious of God's existence?


In that sense he is indeed outside space and time, our physical time at least.

However that does not men that his realm, dimension, call it what you will, does not have it's own time, and he is certainly affected by time, if only in relation to his plans for us, and his means of making sure that they come about.

So, being affected by time would mean God is temporal. Is that correct?


Certainly, to him and his spirit creation distance on earth or even the universe is of little consequence, however scripture indicate that time almost certainly is not.

Scripture tells us of prayers being answered instantly, even before the one making them has had time to actually vocalise them. ON the other hand it recounts at least one occasion in which an angel, despatched to answer a prayer, was delayed for some time in his journey there by opposition from a "Prince of Persia" who was undoubtedly in fact a demon backing the Persian powers. No human would possess such power.

I sometimes visualise our universe as an enormous "goldfish bowl" with our creator and his Angels watching what is happening from outside it. How accurate that visualisation is I have no idea, however we are most definitely under observation by the "fish-keeper" who set up the "Goldfish bowl" in the first place, and he is guiding his "fish" in the same way a human fish-keeper cares for his tanks or bowls, just tweaking things as needed.

I see us as the prize fish in his tank.

To some I don't doubt that is as meaningless as your ideas, maybe more so.

God is not apart of our World but controls it, nonetheless?

In fact at this time it is Satan who is in charge of this world, though not for much longer now. His opportunity to prove his Challenge is almost up.

Earlier, you said, "...he is guiding his 'fish' in the same way a human fish-keeper cares for his tanks or bowls, just tweaking things as needed." Now, you're saying Satan is in charge. Which is it, God or the Devil? Who owns the fish bowl? I thought most religions teach God is in complete control and is Lord of all. Is God in control or is God out of control?

Notwithstanding, is the Devil a physical or metaphysical being? If metaphysical, the same questions still apply:

If the Devil inhabits a realm other than our own and is not apart of the physical Universe, how are we even conscious of the Devil's existence?

The Devil is not apart of our World but controls it, nonetheless?


When Christ is in control things will be very different, and by the time he hands the kingdom back to his father even more different still.

There will be no death.

There will be no more sickness.

There will be no more war.

There will be no more famine or drought.

The earth will be returned to the pristine state of the Garden of Eden.

Sorting all that out will start in the near future.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/10/2013 5:31:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 9:19:44 AM, s-anthony wrote: : : At 10/10/2013 12:13:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote: : : : At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote: : : : Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying Godis eternally present,in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge wouldindicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying Godis beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events;there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever,in spatial coordination;in fact, spatial phenomena would beirrelevant to God. God neither changesin time norin space; everything asit wasin the beginning,is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry,but this sounds meaningless. : : : :I don't blame you, for a being thatis completely dependent on time and space... : : : :If God was dependent of time he would then need a cause , andif he was limitedin space, he wouldn't be God. : : : : Godis what causes time and space to be. : : My question has always been, how can that whichis timeless and spaceless give birth to time and space.

For sure which is inside time and space can't, only that which is independent could do it. eventually if it's spirit..
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/10/2013 5:34:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 9:23:48 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 12:16:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/9/2013 6:54:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Not only is it meaningless, it is metaphysically impossible. If God created space and time, then this entails a change in God. God went from:

a) A state of not creating the universe

to

b) a state of creating the universe

However, change presupposes time! Thus, the idea of an atemporal creator is nonsense. The only way out of this problem is William Lane Craig's view that God places himself within time at the moment of creation. However, that means that God is temporal. His atemporality only holds as no universe exists (assuming time started when the universe did of course), but as the universe begins to exist God places himself in this temporal domain.

Time : the possibility for events to occur.

Events exist because God exist.

Time exists because God exist.

It's not really a creation, but an attribute.

So, you're saying God is temporal?

I'm saying time is what allows events to occur, and God is what -not only allows but also- makes events.

So time is part of the definition of God, God is time. and this sentence (God is time) happen to exist somewhere in Islamic scripture!
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/10/2013 6:35:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 5:27:57 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 5:00:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/10/2013 2:17:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:43:16 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Yes, it does, and in some respects is.

God is an immortal spirit who inhabits a realm completely different to our own, and not part of our physical universe.

Sorry, but, first of all, how does a nonphysical being inhabit anything?

Secondly, if God inhabits a realm other than our own and is not apart of the physical Universe, how are we even conscious of God's existence?


In that sense he is indeed outside space and time, our physical time at least.

However that does not men that his realm, dimension, call it what you will, does not have it's own time, and he is certainly affected by time, if only in relation to his plans for us, and his means of making sure that they come about.

So, being affected by time would mean God is temporal. Is that correct?


Certainly, to him and his spirit creation distance on earth or even the universe is of little consequence, however scripture indicate that time almost certainly is not.

Scripture tells us of prayers being answered instantly, even before the one making them has had time to actually vocalise them. ON the other hand it recounts at least one occasion in which an angel, despatched to answer a prayer, was delayed for some time in his journey there by opposition from a "Prince of Persia" who was undoubtedly in fact a demon backing the Persian powers. No human would possess such power.

I sometimes visualise our universe as an enormous "goldfish bowl" with our creator and his Angels watching what is happening from outside it. How accurate that visualisation is I have no idea, however we are most definitely under observation by the "fish-keeper" who set up the "Goldfish bowl" in the first place, and he is guiding his "fish" in the same way a human fish-keeper cares for his tanks or bowls, just tweaking things as needed.

I see us as the prize fish in his tank.

To some I don't doubt that is as meaningless as your ideas, maybe more so.

God is not apart of our World but controls it, nonetheless?

In fact at this time it is Satan who is in charge of this world, though not for much longer now. His opportunity to prove his Challenge is almost up.

Earlier, you said, "...he is guiding his 'fish' in the same way a human fish-keeper cares for his tanks or bowls, just tweaking things as needed." Now, you're saying Satan is in charge. Which is it, God or the Devil? Who owns the fish bowl? I thought most religions teach God is in complete control and is Lord of all. Is God in control or is God out of control?

God owns the "fish-bowl" and maintains it to the benefit of all.

Satan is in control of the minds of most of humanity.

God is not out of control but currently his control is somewhat limited by his own sense of Justice. His justice being perfect Satan's challenge to his authority meant that, to answer it once and for all time, Satan had to be given a certain amount of freedom, and a certain amount of time to try and prove his case.

God is still in control but only in the limitation of Satan within pre-set boundaries.


Notwithstanding, is the Devil a physical or metaphysical being? If metaphysical, the same questions still apply:

The one who made himself Satan or Devil is a spirit being and was originally a powerful angel until he decided to get greedy, therefore he has the powers of an angel, though slightly limited by God in certain directions.


If the Devil inhabits a realm other than our own and is not apart of the physical Universe, how are we even conscious of the Devil's existence?

Unfortunately most people are as unaware of Satan's existence as many are of God's. I say unfortunately because that gives Satan the ability to control their minds without them even knowing it.


The Devil is not apart of our World but controls it, nonetheless?


Yes in a sense, because he uses the same channel to control our minds that God could use if he chose to. However God respects our privacy and will only interfere if we ask him to. Satan has no such qualms and will interfere with the minds of any who have not requested, and received the protection of God from Satan's attacks.

Basically Satan abuses what God uses, but God stops him from taking his influence to the extent that he can get us to destroy ourselves, though Satan still succeeds in getting some of us to destroy ourselves.

Satan's control of those on this earth as been greatly increased since he was cast out of heaven to allow Christ to cleanse the heavens and prepare for extending the rule of that kingdom to the whole earth,as Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time."

This, according to prophecy happened some time before 1914, and the history of the last 150 years does seem to back that up. This world has "progressed" astoundingly quickly in that time considering how long it took to get to the level of technology we had at the beginning of the 19th century.

It is also borne out by the fact that we are moving ever closer to destroying ourselves with every development which is always attractive enough to appear like a benefit but has a very high price in the long term.

Think about it, very carefully.


When Christ is in control things will be very different, and by the time he hands the kingdom back to his father even more different still.

There will be no death.

There will be no more sickness.

There will be no more war.

There will be no more famine or drought.

The earth will be returned to the pristine state of the Garden of Eden.

Sorting all that out will start in the near future.
annanicole
Posts: 19,793
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10/10/2013 6:47:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "Unfortunately most people are as unaware of Satan's existence as many are of God's. I say unfortunately because that gives Satan the ability to control their minds without them even knowing it."

Anna: Are you still making that claim? Still claiming, even to atheists, that Satan somehow supernaturally - and I'd say miraculously - intervenes and clouds men's minds up and veils the scriptures?

It goes about like this:

1. Satan obviously does not want men to even believe in God.
2. Satan clouds up men's minds so that they will not believe Gen 1: 1.
3. I believe Gen 1: 1 is true.
4. Therefore, the reason that I believe Gen 1: 1 is true is that the Holy Spirit "illuminated" me.
5. But there never was a time that I didn't believe Gen 1: 1 was true.
6. Therefore, the Holy Spirit must have illuminated me at like age 3 or 4, before I even realized what Gen 1: 1 said.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/10/2013 9:31:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 5:31:14 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:19:44 AM, s-anthony wrote: : : At 10/10/2013 12:13:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote: : : : At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote: : : : Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying Godis eternally present,in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge wouldindicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying Godis beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events;there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever,in spatial coordination;in fact, spatial phenomena would beirrelevant to God. God neither changesin time norin space; everything asit wasin the beginning,is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry,but this sounds meaningless. : : : :I don't blame you, for a being thatis completely dependent on time and space... : : : :If God was dependent of time he would then need a cause , andif he was limitedin space, he wouldn't be God. : : : : Godis what causes time and space to be. : : My question has always been, how can that whichis timeless and spaceless give birth to time and space.

For sure which is inside time and space can't, only that which is independent could do it. eventually if it's spirit..

God is outside time and space, meaning God does not experience time and space, has no knowledge of it. How can God create something of which there is no knowledge? What else existed, besides God, from which time and space was created? If time and space did not come from God, from where did it come?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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10/10/2013 9:38:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 9:31:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 5:31:14 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:19:44 AM, s-anthony wrote: : : At 10/10/2013 12:13:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote: : : : At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote: : : : Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying Godis eternally present,in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge wouldindicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying Godis beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events;there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever,in spatial coordination;in fact, spatial phenomena would beirrelevant to God. God neither changesin time norin space; everything asit wasin the beginning,is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry,but this sounds meaningless. : : : :I don't blame you, for a being thatis completely dependent on time and space... : : : :If God was dependent of time he would then need a cause , andif he was limitedin space, he wouldn't be God. : : : : Godis what causes time and space to be. : : My question has always been, how can that whichis timeless and spaceless give birth to time and space.

For sure which is inside time and space can't, only that which is independent could do it. eventually if it's spirit..

God is outside time and space, meaning God does not experience time and space, has no knowledge of it. How can God create something of which there is no knowledge? What else existed, besides God, from which time and space was created? If time and space did not come from God, from where did it come?

This assumes time and space "came from" in the first place...
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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10/10/2013 9:55:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 6:35:15 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Satan is in control of the minds of most of humanity.
Of course you can show this using the narrative your past J.w publication & teaching Interlinear called the EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT?

Off ya go laddie!

Then again we know you are a liar, deceiver, false prophet & all round fraud!

Your vindicated mentor & Saviour amazing moi!
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/10/2013 11:38:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 5:34:02 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:23:48 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 12:16:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/9/2013 6:54:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Not only is it meaningless, it is metaphysically impossible. If God created space and time, then this entails a change in God. God went from:

a) A state of not creating the universe

to

b) a state of creating the universe

However, change presupposes time! Thus, the idea of an atemporal creator is nonsense. The only way out of this problem is William Lane Craig's view that God places himself within time at the moment of creation. However, that means that God is temporal. His atemporality only holds as no universe exists (assuming time started when the universe did of course), but as the universe begins to exist God places himself in this temporal domain.

Time : the possibility for events to occur.

Events exist because God exist.

Time exists because God exist.

It's not really a creation, but an attribute.

So, you're saying God is temporal?

I'm saying time is what allows events to occur, and God is what -not only allows but also- makes events.

So time is part of the definition of God, God is time. and this sentence (God is time) happen to exist somewhere in Islamic scripture!

So, God is not eternal, but temporal?
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/10/2013 11:51:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 9:38:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:31:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 5:31:14 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:19:44 AM, s-anthony wrote: : : At 10/10/2013 12:13:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote: : : : At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote: : : : Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying Godis eternally present,in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge wouldindicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying Godis beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events;there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever,in spatial coordination;in fact, spatial phenomena would beirrelevant to God. God neither changesin time norin space; everything asit wasin the beginning,is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry,but this sounds meaningless. : : : :I don't blame you, for a being thatis completely dependent on time and space... : : : :If God was dependent of time he would then need a cause , andif he was limitedin space, he wouldn't be God. : : : : Godis what causes time and space to be. : : My question has always been, how can that whichis timeless and spaceless give birth to time and space.

For sure which is inside time and space can't, only that which is independent could do it. eventually if it's spirit..

God is outside time and space, meaning God does not experience time and space, has no knowledge of it. How can God create something of which there is no knowledge? What else existed, besides God, from which time and space was created? If time and space did not come from God, from where did it come?

This assumes time and space "came from" in the first place...

I'm not assuming anything; I am only responding to the assumption time and space came from God.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/11/2013 3:14:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 11:51:19 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:38:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:31:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 5:31:14 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:19:44 AM, s-anthony wrote: : : At 10/10/2013 12:13:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote: : : : At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote: : : : Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying Godis eternally present,in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge wouldindicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying Godis beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events;there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever,in spatial coordination;in fact, spatial phenomena would beirrelevant to God. God neither changesin time norin space; everything asit wasin the beginning,is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry,but this sounds meaningless. : : : :I don't blame you, for a being thatis completely dependent on time and space... : : : :If God was dependent of time he would then need a cause , andif he was limitedin space, he wouldn't be God. : : : : Godis what causes time and space to be. : : My question has always been, how can that whichis timeless and spaceless give birth to time and space.

For sure which is inside time and space can't, only that which is independent could do it. eventually if it's spirit..

God is outside time and space, meaning God does not experience time and space, has no knowledge of it. How can God create something of which there is no knowledge? What else existed, besides God, from which time and space was created? If time and space did not come from God, from where did it come?

This assumes time and space "came from" in the first place...

I'm not assuming anything; I am only responding to the assumption time and space came from God.

It is not an assumption, to those open to the evidence it is a simple fact of life.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/11/2013 3:17:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 9:55:25 PM, Composer wrote:
At 10/10/2013 6:35:15 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
Satan is in control of the minds of most of humanity.
Of course you can show this using the narrative your past J.w publication & teaching Interlinear called the EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT?

Off ya go laddie!

Then again we know you are a liar, deceiver, false prophet & all round fraud!

Your vindicated mentor & Saviour amazing moi!

The narrative of the past makes ever faith on earth, including atheism, out to be liars deceivers etc. so that is hardly a relevant argument, and certainly not a valid one.

After all the narrative of your posts in this forum show you to be all of the above also, as well as a completely arrogant bigot..
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/11/2013 3:18:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 11:38:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 5:34:02 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:23:48 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 12:16:34 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/9/2013 6:54:59 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying God is eternally present, in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge would indicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying God is beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events; there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever, in spatial coordination; in fact, spatial phenomena would be irrelevant to God. God neither changes in time nor in space; everything as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry, but this sounds meaningless.

Not only is it meaningless, it is metaphysically impossible. If God created space and time, then this entails a change in God. God went from:

a) A state of not creating the universe

to

b) a state of creating the universe

However, change presupposes time! Thus, the idea of an atemporal creator is nonsense. The only way out of this problem is William Lane Craig's view that God places himself within time at the moment of creation. However, that means that God is temporal. His atemporality only holds as no universe exists (assuming time started when the universe did of course), but as the universe begins to exist God places himself in this temporal domain.

Time : the possibility for events to occur.

Events exist because God exist.

Time exists because God exist.

It's not really a creation, but an attribute.

So, you're saying God is temporal?

I'm saying time is what allows events to occur, and God is what -not only allows but also- makes events.

So time is part of the definition of God, God is time. and this sentence (God is time) happen to exist somewhere in Islamic scripture!

So, God is not eternal, but temporal?

Surely one can be eternal and temporal? Humanity was intended to be, and will be, certainly.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/11/2013 3:19:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 9:38:48 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:31:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 5:31:14 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:19:44 AM, s-anthony wrote: : : At 10/10/2013 12:13:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote: : : : At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote: : : : Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying Godis eternally present,in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge wouldindicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying Godis beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events;there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever,in spatial coordination;in fact, spatial phenomena would beirrelevant to God. God neither changesin time norin space; everything asit wasin the beginning,is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry,but this sounds meaningless. : : : :I don't blame you, for a being thatis completely dependent on time and space... : : : :If God was dependent of time he would then need a cause , andif he was limitedin space, he wouldn't be God. : : : : Godis what causes time and space to be. : : My question has always been, how can that whichis timeless and spaceless give birth to time and space.

For sure which is inside time and space can't, only that which is independent could do it. eventually if it's spirit..

God is outside time and space, meaning God does not experience time and space, has no knowledge of it. How can God create something of which there is no knowledge? What else existed, besides God, from which time and space was created? If time and space did not come from God, from where did it come?

This assumes time and space "came from" in the first place...

Again, not an assumption but to those of us open to the evidence a foregone conclusion.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/11/2013 3:25:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 9:31:48 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/10/2013 5:31:14 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/10/2013 9:19:44 AM, s-anthony wrote: : : At 10/10/2013 12:13:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote: : : : At 10/9/2013 3:35:13 PM, s-anthony wrote: : : : Most religions posit God beyond time and space, saying Godis eternally present,in other words, putting God beyond temporal and spatial phenomena; for, God's knowledge wouldindicate no past, present, or future, as though God's knowledge were eternally present and never changing, with time; the same yesterday, and today, and forever. Now, saying Godis beyond space would put God outside the realm of spatial events;there would be no near or far away, up or down, to and from, right or left, ahead of or behind, no distinction, whatsoever,in spatial coordination;in fact, spatial phenomena would beirrelevant to God. God neither changesin time norin space; everything asit wasin the beginning,is now, and ever shall be.... Sorry,but this sounds meaningless. : : : :I don't blame you, for a being thatis completely dependent on time and space... : : : :If God was dependent of time he would then need a cause , andif he was limitedin space, he wouldn't be God. : : : : Godis what causes time and space to be. : : My question has always been, how can that whichis timeless and spaceless give birth to time and space.

For sure which is inside time and space can't, only that which is independent could do it. eventually if it's spirit..

God is outside time and space, meaning God does not experience time and space, has no knowledge of it. How can God create something of which there is no knowledge? What else existed, besides God, from which time and space was created? If time and space did not come from God, from where did it come?

Does it mean that? I am outside of the TV studios, yet I experience as much as I want to of what goes on in them, even behind the scenes.

There are many ways of experiencing things, not all first hand.

One thing however you can be sure of is that his son directly experienced both the physical world and the full effects of time.

The other thing, if you understand scripture, is that everything, from Genesis to Revelation, is tied to a definite, planned, timeline, albeit a much longer one that we can begin to imagine, or accurately measure.
MadCornishBiker
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10/11/2013 3:38:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/10/2013 6:47:35 PM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "Unfortunately most people are as unaware of Satan's existence as many are of God's. I say unfortunately because that gives Satan the ability to control their minds without them even knowing it."

Anna: Are you still making that claim? Still claiming, even to atheists, that Satan somehow supernaturally - and I'd say miraculously - intervenes and clouds men's minds up and veils the scriptures?

It goes about like this:

1. Satan obviously does not want men to even believe in God.

He doesn't care if they believe in God or not. The challenge is that no man will happily serve God in the ways he wants them to under trial. (Job 2) For instance he doesn't want people like you to understand the real sense of John 1:1, no matter how close you get, as long as you don;t get there. He is more than happy for you to believe in a false, Trinitarian god.

2. Satan clouds up men's minds so that they will not believe Gen 1: 1.

Satan clouds men's minds so that they won't get to truth, or certainly not the whole of the truth. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4). He doesn't mind how much or how little of it they get, as long as they don,t get to the "deeper things of God".

3. I believe Gen 1: 1 is true.

Do you actually understand it though? It is a clue as well as a statement.

4. Therefore, the reason that I believe Gen 1: 1 is true is that the Holy Spirit "illuminated" me.

No it simply means that as long as you don;t get to teh truth behind it Satan doesn't care.

5. But there never was a time that I didn't believe Gen 1: 1 was true.

So? Again, do you really understand what it is telling you in context. It is more than just a simple statement of who did what. For instance it tells us clearly that it is a brief account of creation before the events of Genesis 1:2 onwards.

6. Therefore, the Holy Spirit must have illuminated me at like age 3 or 4, before I even realized what Gen 1: 1 said.

No. again it just mean that Satan doesn't mind people getting that far as long as they don;t get the full truth or do something like worshipping a false Trinitarian God.

You are very good at spouting the "party line aren't you Anna, however you never truly reason on scripture unless it is to find a way to bend it to fit your beliefs.

If you were any good at reasoning you would have a fair idea what I was going to reply to the above and therefore would not have bothered, but you didn't have any idea, you simply thought you knew how I, and those with the aid of holy spirit, think.

You have no idea of the depth I can reason to, and all because God empowers me to do it.