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British Priest - Theft Sometimes OK

dogparktom
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12/24/2009 12:36:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
British priest: Shoplifting by poor sometimes OK
By Gregory Katz
Associated Press
Updated: 12/22/2009 10:24:34 PM CST

LONDON — For a priest in northern England, the commandment that dictates "thou shalt not steal" isn't exactly written in stone.

The Rev. Tim Jones caused an uproar by telling his congregation it is sometimes acceptable for desperate people to shoplift — as long as they do it at large national chain stores rather than small family businesses.

Jones' Robin Hood-like sermon drew rebukes Tuesday from fellow clergy, shop owners and police.

From his pulpit at the Church of St. Lawrence in York, about 220 miles north of London, Jones said in his sermon Sunday that shoplifting can be justified if a person in real need is not greedy and does not take more than he or she really needs to get by.

The remarks drew a summons from Archdeacon Richard Seed, who said on his Web site that the church rejects the view that shoplifting can be acceptable.

"The Church of England does not advise anyone to shoplift, or break the law in any way," he said.

"Father Tim Jones is raising important issues about the difficulties people face when benefits are not forthcoming, but shoplifting is not the way to overcome these difficulties. There are many organizations and charities working with people in need, and the Citizens' Advice Bureau is a good first place to call," Seed's statement said.

Eleanor Course, a spokeswoman for Seed, said the archdeacon wants to meet with Jones to discuss the "appropriateness" of his sermon.

"The point we are most concerned about is that shoplifting is simply not a blameless, victimless crime," she said. "We want to make clear that it simply doesn't help people. And the last thing a desperate person wants is to be caught for shoplifting, so we feel this advice is very unwise."
Jones told the Associated Press that he stands by his comments. He said he regretted only that the media are focusing on his view on shoplifting rather than the underlying problem he wanted to address.

"The point I'm making is that when we shut down every socially acceptable avenue for people in need, then the only avenue left is the socially unacceptable one," he said, adding that people are often released from prison without any means of support, leading them back into crime.

"What I'm against is the way society has become ever more comfortable with the people at the very bottom, and blinded to their needs," he said.

He said shoplifting could help people legally entitled to government welfare benefits whose benefits are delayed for bureaucratic reasons.

This approach was quickly rejected by members of the British Retail Consortium, a prominent trade organization trying to reduce theft.

"It's the job of our welfare system, which retailers support with the billions they pay each year in tax, to help vulnerable people," said spokesman Richard Dodd. "There are no excuses for stealing."

The North Yorkshire Police also condemned Jones' approach as counterproductive because people already in marginal conditions would find themselves in trouble with the law if they resorted to shoplifting.

"First and foremost, shoplifting is a criminal offense, and to justify this course of action under any circumstances is highly irresponsible," a police statement read. "Turning or returning to crime will only make matters worse, that is a guarantee."

People in need should turn to charitable organizations and government agencies for help, rather than take matters into their own hands, the police said.

"To do this would make the downward spiral even more rapid, both on an individual basis and on society as a whole," the statement said.
___________________________________________

Is the moral prohibition against theft a moral absolute? In the Christian tradition, it is. This priest either disagrees with the tradition, or is ignorant of it. I suspect that the latter is the case.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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12/24/2009 12:46:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 12:36:55 PM, dogparktom wrote:
British priest: Shoplifting by poor sometimes OK
By Gregory Katz
Associated Press
Updated: 12/22/2009 10:24:34 PM CST

LONDON — For a priest in northern England, the commandment that dictates "thou shalt not steal" isn't exactly written in stone.

The Rev. Tim Jones caused an uproar by telling his congregation it is sometimes acceptable for desperate people to shoplift — as long as they do it at large national chain stores rather than small family businesses.

Jones' Robin Hood-like sermon drew rebukes Tuesday from fellow clergy, shop owners and police.

From his pulpit at the Church of St. Lawrence in York, about 220 miles north of London, Jones said in his sermon Sunday that shoplifting can be justified if a person in real need is not greedy and does not take more than he or she really needs to get by.

The remarks drew a summons from Archdeacon Richard Seed, who said on his Web site that the church rejects the view that shoplifting can be acceptable.

"The Church of England does not advise anyone to shoplift, or break the law in any way," he said.

"Father Tim Jones is raising important issues about the difficulties people face when benefits are not forthcoming, but shoplifting is not the way to overcome these difficulties. There are many organizations and charities working with people in need, and the Citizens' Advice Bureau is a good first place to call," Seed's statement said.

Eleanor Course, a spokeswoman for Seed, said the archdeacon wants to meet with Jones to discuss the "appropriateness" of his sermon.

"The point we are most concerned about is that shoplifting is simply not a blameless, victimless crime," she said. "We want to make clear that it simply doesn't help people. And the last thing a desperate person wants is to be caught for shoplifting, so we feel this advice is very unwise."
Jones told the Associated Press that he stands by his comments. He said he regretted only that the media are focusing on his view on shoplifting rather than the underlying problem he wanted to address.

"The point I'm making is that when we shut down every socially acceptable avenue for people in need, then the only avenue left is the socially unacceptable one," he said, adding that people are often released from prison without any means of support, leading them back into crime.

"What I'm against is the way society has become ever more comfortable with the people at the very bottom, and blinded to their needs," he said.

He said shoplifting could help people legally entitled to government welfare benefits whose benefits are delayed for bureaucratic reasons.

This approach was quickly rejected by members of the British Retail Consortium, a prominent trade organization trying to reduce theft.

"It's the job of our welfare system, which retailers support with the billions they pay each year in tax, to help vulnerable people," said spokesman Richard Dodd. "There are no excuses for stealing."

The North Yorkshire Police also condemned Jones' approach as counterproductive because people already in marginal conditions would find themselves in trouble with the law if they resorted to shoplifting.

"First and foremost, shoplifting is a criminal offense, and to justify this course of action under any circumstances is highly irresponsible," a police statement read. "Turning or returning to crime will only make matters worse, that is a guarantee."

People in need should turn to charitable organizations and government agencies for help, rather than take matters into their own hands, the police said.

"To do this would make the downward spiral even more rapid, both on an individual basis and on society as a whole," the statement said.
___________________________________________

Is the moral prohibition against theft a moral absolute? In the Christian tradition, it is. This priest either disagrees with the tradition, or is ignorant of it. I suspect that the latter is the case.

I saw this vicar interviewed on TV about this. What he was saying was that, although stealing is obviously wrong, if someone is absolutely destitute it would be better to shoplift from a large store than mug an old lady. It's not that controversial really.
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Puck
Posts: 6,457
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12/24/2009 1:07:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 12:46:48 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:

I saw this vicar interviewed on TV about this. What he was saying was that, although stealing is obviously wrong, if someone is absolutely destitute it would be better to shoplift from a large store than mug an old lady. It's not that controversial really.

I think the issue is why did he not use the traditional Christian charity line, either for the congregation to donate, or for the destitute to seek those services available under Church control (or secular). There are multiples avenues one would think before 'you should steal' becomes the advocated policy.
banker
Posts: 1,370
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12/24/2009 1:13:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
ethiests like this story. it proves them ,that some christian authareties have ethiest values...!!!

its actualy interesting a priest offers a ethiestic selution..!!

this proves that ethiests are stronger to thier believe then christians. think about it !! did you ever had a ethiest say "dont steal even if no one could see you will go to hell"...? of curse not..!!
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
johngriswald
Posts: 1,294
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12/24/2009 1:39:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 1:13:07 PM, banker wrote:
ethiests like this story. it proves them ,that some christian authareties have ethiest values...!!!

its actualy interesting a priest offers a ethiestic selution..!!

this proves that ethiests are stronger to thier believe then christians. think about it !! did you ever had a ethiest say "dont steal even if no one could see you will go to hell"...? of curse not..!!

1. are you originally from the US?
2. when/where did you develop the habit of ending your sentences with ... ?
3. Why do you end most sentences with a exclamation mark?
4. Why did you lie about your education?
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GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/24/2009 1:47:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Under Christian dogma, it is perfectly ok to steal, despite the ten commandments. Yahweh completely disregards the commandments when he commands people to kill entire nations. What happened to thou shall not kill? Oh, that's right, they only apply as etiquete towards other Christians, not people in general.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
johngriswald
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12/24/2009 1:49:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 1:47:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Under Christian dogma, it is perfectly ok to steal, despite the ten commandments.

I'd love to see some scripture for that
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Ragnar_Rahl
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12/24/2009 1:50:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What he was saying was that, although stealing is obviously wrong, if someone is absolutely destitute it would be better to shoplift from a large store than mug an old lady.
I'd say it's worse. At least when you mug an old lady you're being honest to her about it.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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12/24/2009 1:50:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 1:49:00 PM, johngriswald wrote:
At 12/24/2009 1:47:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Under Christian dogma, it is perfectly ok to steal, despite the ten commandments.

I'd love to see some scripture for that

Tithing seems to be a form of stealing.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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12/24/2009 1:50:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 1:47:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Under Christian dogma, it is perfectly ok to steal, despite the ten commandments. Yahweh completely disregards the commandments when he commands people to kill entire nations. What happened to thou shall not kill? Oh, that's right, they only apply as etiquete towards other Christians, not people in general.

Actually it's thou shall not MURDER.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/24/2009 1:56:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 1:49:00 PM, johngriswald wrote:
At 12/24/2009 1:47:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Under Christian dogma, it is perfectly ok to steal, despite the ten commandments.

I'd love to see some scripture for that

If Christian dogma says it's ok to disobey the commandments, why can't they disobey thou shall not steal? They say thou shall not kill, yet Yahweh commands people to kill all the time. Clearly, the ten commandments basically mean, do whatever you want long as you feel there's good reason to break them.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/24/2009 2:14:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 2:02:17 PM, Koopin wrote:
Did you hear?? An atheist said that stealing is okay!

First of all, I'm a pantheist, not an atheist. I said that Christian dogma warrants stealing because it says it's ok to break commandments under certain conditions.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
banker
Posts: 1,370
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12/24/2009 3:07:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 1:39:45 PM, Puck wrote:
Did you just call me a thief? Really?

when no one would ever find out, what stops you from stealing?
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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12/24/2009 3:20:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 3:07:01 PM, banker wrote:
At 12/24/2009 1:39:45 PM, Puck wrote:
Did you just call me a thief? Really?

when no one would ever find out, what stops you from stealing?

Because you judge yourself and your own morality. It's generally unpleasant for most to have a guilty conscience. What stops you from killing if no one is watching you? If you say "nothing" you need to be locked up immediately.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
I-am-a-panda
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12/25/2009 2:51:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 3:07:01 PM, banker wrote:
At 12/24/2009 1:39:45 PM, Puck wrote:
Did you just call me a thief? Really?

when no one would ever find out, what stops you from stealing?

We're mature enough not to have the threat of eternal hell fire hanging over us not to steal. We don't do it anyone. However, you like a child need a treat for doing something good.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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12/25/2009 3:21:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 3:07:01 PM, banker wrote:
At 12/24/2009 1:39:45 PM, Puck wrote:
Did you just call me a thief? Really?

when no one would ever find out, what stops you from stealing?

I lack omniscience, global knowledge of who is looking is not available to me. Secondly, I value productivity, worth, trade for value, a mind not burdened by the parasitic notion of I can therefore I should take from others, where my independence of earning and happiness of earning such what I desire, far exceeds any urge to take at whim. :)
Puck
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12/25/2009 3:21:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 3:07:01 PM, banker wrote:
At 12/24/2009 1:39:45 PM, Puck wrote:
Did you just call me a thief? Really?

when no one would ever find out, what stops you from stealing?

So how's that Falun Dafa shooting fireballs going?
johngriswald
Posts: 1,294
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12/28/2009 9:28:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/24/2009 3:07:01 PM, banker wrote:
At 12/24/2009 1:39:45 PM, Puck wrote:
Did you just call me a thief? Really?

when no one would ever find out, what stops you from stealing?

Did you just use a coma, not misspell a word, and use correct punctuation all without ending with a ... or an exclamation mark?

Holy crap.
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