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ISLAM is the logical choice.

HPWKA
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10/11/2013 9:32:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As alluded to here (http://www.debate.org...) its safe to say that the pros of believing in "God" outweigh the cons, by an "infinite" amount.

Among the major religions, Islam seems like the soundest, based on the authenticity and substance of its text (Quran).

Are there any legitimate reasons why we shouldn't believe in Islam?
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
emospongebob527
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10/11/2013 10:14:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 9:32:32 PM, HPWKA wrote:
As alluded to here (http://www.debate.org...) its safe to say that the pros of believing in "God" outweigh the cons, by an "infinite" amount.

Oh, really? How did you arrive at that "well thought out conclusion"?


Among the major religions, Islam seems like the soundest, based on the authenticity and substance of its text (Quran).

How so?


Are there any legitimate reasons why we shouldn't believe in Islam?

Yes, lack of reason that we should.
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
Composer
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10/11/2013 10:14:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 9:32:32 PM, HPWKA wrote:
As alluded to here (http://www.debate.org...) its safe to say that the pros of believing in "God" outweigh the cons, by an "infinite" amount.

Among the major religions, Islam seems like the soundest, based on the authenticity and substance of its text (Quran).

Are there any legitimate reasons why we shouldn't believe in Islam?

What alleged ' authenticity ' would that be?
Magic8000
Posts: 975
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10/11/2013 10:34:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 10:19:21 PM, FREEDO wrote:
The irony of converting Pascal's wager from Christianity to Islam is what's infinite.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
HPWKA
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10/11/2013 11:06:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
As alluded to here (http://www.debate.org...) its safe to say that the pros of believing in "God" outweigh the cons, by an "infinite" amount.

Oh, really? How did you arrive at that "well thought out conclusion"?


Among the major religions, Islam seems like the soundest, based on the authenticity and substance of its text (Quran).

How so?


Are there any legitimate reasons why we shouldn't believe in Islam?

Yes, lack of reason that we should.

Read the debate-link I posted first off.

Its well known, even among Christian/Judaic scholars, that the Torah/Bibles aren't authentic. The texts have changed over time, some teachings have been lost, while others have been added by admitted mortals (kings, priests, etc.).

The Quran on the other hand, is pretty much the same, based on the earliest versions that have been found.

If you read the debate-link I posted, you would know that the most reasonable thing a person can do is believe in the most reliable of the religions, that promises a hell/heaven.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
HPWKA
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10/11/2013 11:09:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Among the major religions, Islam seems like the soundest, based on the authenticity and substance of its text (Quran).

What alleged ' authenticity ' would that be?

The Quran widely read today is largely unchanged, based on the earliest histories and copies of the Quran that have been recovered.

In a topic such as this, having a reliable source material that hasn't been overtly corrupted many times over (Bible/Torah), is quite helpful.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
HPWKA
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10/11/2013 11:12:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What I'm essentially asking, is why should a reasonable person NOT believe in Islam?
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Composer
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10/11/2013 11:12:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 11:06:58 PM, HPWKA wrote:
If you read the debate-link I posted, you would know that the most reasonable thing a person can do is believe in the most reliable of the religions, that promises a hell/heaven.
Heaven is merely a human concept!

Hell means a covering (e.g. Hel-met) and refers to the Grave!
Illegalcombatant
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10/11/2013 11:17:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 11:12:03 PM, HPWKA wrote:
What I'm essentially asking, is why should a reasonable person NOT believe in Islam?

1) Cause baseless assertions are a dime a dozen
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
HPWKA
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10/11/2013 11:20:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 11:17:04 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2013 11:12:03 PM, HPWKA wrote:
What I'm essentially asking, is why should a reasonable person NOT believe in Islam?

1) Cause baseless assertions are a dime a dozen

I implore everyone responding to read the link in my original statement.

Islam, however "baseless" introduces an interesting risk-reward system. Belief costs you nothing (or little), and could give you everything (heaven). Disbelief gets you nothing (or little), but could cost everything (hell).
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Illegalcombatant
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10/11/2013 11:24:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 11:20:29 PM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/11/2013 11:17:04 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2013 11:12:03 PM, HPWKA wrote:
What I'm essentially asking, is why should a reasonable person NOT believe in Islam?

1) Cause baseless assertions are a dime a dozen

I implore everyone responding to read the link in my original statement.

Islam, however "baseless" introduces an interesting risk-reward system. Belief costs you nothing (or little), and could give you everything (heaven). Disbelief gets you nothing (or little), but could cost everything (hell).

Oh pascals........or should we say Muhammad wager eh.

Trouble is that trick works for many religious claims. Claim that believe X, if your wrong no big deal, if your right, you gain everything.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
HPWKA
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10/11/2013 11:29:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 11:24:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2013 11:20:29 PM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/11/2013 11:17:04 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2013 11:12:03 PM, HPWKA wrote:
What I'm essentially asking, is why should a reasonable person NOT believe in Islam?

1) Cause baseless assertions are a dime a dozen

I implore everyone responding to read the link in my original statement.

Islam, however "baseless" introduces an interesting risk-reward system. Belief costs you nothing (or little), and could give you everything (heaven). Disbelief gets you nothing (or little), but could cost everything (hell).

Oh pascals........or should we say Muhammad wager eh.

Trouble is that trick works for many religious claims. Claim that believe X, if your wrong no big deal, if your right, you gain everything.

Agreed, which is why the logical thing to do would be to pick the most "reliable" religion, and stick with it.

Based on the consistency, authenticity, and content of the Quran, Islam seems to be the "best" choice among religions. So, WHY shouldn't we believe in Islam?
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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10/11/2013 11:33:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This would be an awesome debate. Do you want to debate me on this :)
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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10/11/2013 11:34:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 11:31:37 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
You ever hear of this guy called Pascal?

Once or twice, why?
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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10/11/2013 11:34:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 11:29:20 PM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/11/2013 11:24:58 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2013 11:20:29 PM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/11/2013 11:17:04 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 10/11/2013 11:12:03 PM, HPWKA wrote:
What I'm essentially asking, is why should a reasonable person NOT believe in Islam?

1) Cause baseless assertions are a dime a dozen

I implore everyone responding to read the link in my original statement.

Islam, however "baseless" introduces an interesting risk-reward system. Belief costs you nothing (or little), and could give you everything (heaven). Disbelief gets you nothing (or little), but could cost everything (hell).

Oh pascals........or should we say Muhammad wager eh.

Trouble is that trick works for many religious claims. Claim that believe X, if your wrong no big deal, if your right, you gain everything.

Agreed, which is why the logical thing to do would be to pick the most "reliable" religion, and stick with it.

Based on the consistency, authenticity, and content of the Quran, Islam seems to be the "best" choice among religions. So, WHY shouldn't we believe in Islam?

It's a non sequitur, even if we grant some religion is the "best" it doesn't then follow it is true or we should believe it.

You can go to a public toilet and pick the best stool, trouble is no matter which you pick you still end up with sh*t.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Vi_Veri
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10/11/2013 11:38:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 11:34:19 PM, HPWKA wrote:
At 10/11/2013 11:31:37 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
You ever hear of this guy called Pascal?

Once or twice, why?

For some reason it wont let me post the link on here. Please look up Pascal's Wager on wikipedia. I think that pretty much makes it end of story for this debate. It can be applied to any religion, essentially. Even Islam. If you'd like, though, I would love to debate you on this :)
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
HPWKA
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10/11/2013 11:41:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Based on the consistency, authenticity, and content of the Quran, Islam seems to be the "best" choice among religions. So, WHY shouldn't we believe in Islam?

It's a non sequitur, even if we grant some religion is the "best" it doesn't then follow it is true or we should believe it.


It DOES follow that we should believe it, if believing costs us NOTHING, but non-believing could cost us EVERYTHING (Hell).
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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10/11/2013 11:47:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
For some reason it wont let me post the link on here. Please look up Pascal's Wager on wikipedia. I think that pretty much makes it end of story for this debate. It can be applied to any religion, essentially. Even Islam. If you'd like, though, I would love to debate you on this :)

LOL I can honestly say I've never heard of this, and just thought of it out of the blue!!!

Still, the only real criticism I can find of Pascal's Wager, is that we don't know which God to believe in.

However, its quite clear most religions are sheer nonsense, with beliefs and claims that are demonstrably false.

I've been looking into which one is the "least false", and Islam is the CLEAR winner, with FEW true errors we could point to, that disqualify it.

So, if one accepts the premise of Pascal, and accepts that Islam is clearly the best choice among religions, it would then be logical to believe in Islam.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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10/11/2013 11:58:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 11:47:14 PM, HPWKA wrote:
For some reason it wont let me post the link on here. Please look up Pascal's Wager on wikipedia. I think that pretty much makes it end of story for this debate. It can be applied to any religion, essentially. Even Islam. If you'd like, though, I would love to debate you on this :)

LOL I can honestly say I've never heard of this, and just thought of it out of the blue!!!

Still, the only real criticism I can find of Pascal's Wager, is that we don't know which God to believe in.

No. There are many criticisms. Not least is the idea that we don't "choose" what to believe in. We believe in that which we find most reasonable--we don't generally say "Well, I don't believe in X because there are no grounds to. But I want to believe in X, therefore I believe in X". As Voltaire said: "the interest I have to believe a thing is no proof that such a thing exists."

It also presumes that, if there is a God, and if belief could be chosen, and if choosing to believe did reap infinite rewards, that the choices were limited to those which humans have already put forth, rather than the infinite options that have not been even suggested.

However, its quite clear most religions are sheer nonsense, with beliefs and claims that are demonstrably false.

Many would say the same thing about Islam...

I've been looking into which one is the "least false", and Islam is the CLEAR winner, with FEW true errors we could point to, that disqualify it.

So few, but present?

So, if one accepts the premise of Pascal, and accepts that Islam is clearly the best choice among religions, it would then be logical to believe in Islam.

Right, but Pascal's wager is fundamentally flawed, as noted above in brief (but really, it is and always has been a terrible argument on every level).
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HPWKA
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10/12/2013 12:10:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
No. There are many criticisms. Not least is the idea that we don't "choose" what to believe in. We believe in that which we find most reasonable--we don't generally say "Well, I don't believe in X because there are no grounds to. But I want to believe in X, therefore I believe in X". As Voltaire said: "the interest I have to believe a thing is no proof that such a thing exists."

It also presumes that, if there is a God, and if belief could be chosen, and if choosing to believe did reap infinite rewards, that the choices were limited to those which humans have already put forth, rather than the infinite options that have not been even suggested.

However, its quite clear most religions are sheer nonsense, with beliefs and claims that are demonstrably false.

Many would say the same thing about Islam...


I've been looking into which one is the "least false", and Islam is the CLEAR winner, with FEW true errors we could point to, that disqualify it.

So few, but present?

So, if one accepts the premise of Pascal, and accepts that Islam is clearly the best choice among religions, it would then be logical to believe in Islam.

Right, but Pascal's wager is fundamentally flawed, as noted above in brief (but really, it is and always has been a terrible argument on every level).

Firstly, yes, we DO choose what we believe in. Believing in Islam WOULD be reasonable to us, ergo we WOULD believe in it, assuming Pascal holds, and Islam is the best religion.

The choices of religions would almost certainly be one that is available to us. Otherwise, we couldn't realistically be "punished" or "rewarded" for believing in something that hadn't been discovered.

I have heard nothing on this forum or throughout my brief google venture, that would lead me to believe Pascal's wager in inherently flawed.

I have researched the Quran QUITE thoroughly, and their are VERY few things to take issue with, and ARGUABLY not a single thing that can be outright proved false.

Again, ASSUMING Pascal holds (I've seen no evidence to the contrary), and assuming Islam is the best available choice (no contrary evidence), then it would be logical to believe in Islam.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
bladerunner060
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10/12/2013 12:21:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
624: At 10/12/2013 12:10:22 AM, HPWKA wrote:

Firstly, yes, we DO choose what we believe in. Believing in Islam WOULD be reasonable to us, ergo we WOULD believe in it, assuming Pascal holds, and Islam is the best religion.

No, because the wager makes no actual claims as to the actual likelihood of the existence of God. I mean, I could say that if you give me $1,000, you'll have eternity of bliss, but if you don't, you'll burn in hell for eternity. Technically, that gives infinite likelihood of benefit for merely a finite, $1,000 cost, and so by the terms of the wager, you should give me $1,000 and believe my claim. That is clearly absurd.

The choices of religions would almost certainly be one that is available to us. Otherwise, we couldn't realistically be "punished" or "rewarded" for believing in something that hadn't been discovered.

Upon what do you make that claim? It appears to have no basis.

I have heard nothing on this forum or throughout my brief google venture, that would lead me to believe Pascal's wager in inherently flawed.

I have researched the Quran QUITE thoroughly, and their are VERY few things to take issue with, and ARGUABLY not a single thing that can be outright proved false.

There are several things to take issue with, not the least of which is pedophilia elevated to "moral perfection"; there are contradictions and falsehoods galore.

Again, ASSUMING Pascal holds (I've seen no evidence to the contrary), and assuming Islam is the best available choice (no contrary evidence), then it would be logical to believe in Islam.

The wager, on its own, never takes a position on a specific faith, it's geared entirely towards simply "faith" and "no faith". In fact, its lack of factoring in competing claims is a strong argument against it. Pascal himself thought that Islam was not the best choice.
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Illegalcombatant
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10/12/2013 12:39:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 11:47:14 PM, HPWKA wrote:
For some reason it wont let me post the link on here. Please look up Pascal's Wager on wikipedia. I think that pretty much makes it end of story for this debate. It can be applied to any religion, essentially. Even Islam. If you'd like, though, I would love to debate you on this :)

LOL I can honestly say I've never heard of this, and just thought of it out of the blue!!!

Still, the only real criticism I can find of Pascal's Wager, is that we don't know which God to believe in.

However, its quite clear most religions are sheer nonsense, with beliefs and claims that are demonstrably false.

Yeah people see the non sense............when it comes to the other guys religion.


I've been looking into which one is the "least false", and Islam is the CLEAR winner, with FEW true errors we could point to, that disqualify it.

Just because something hasn't be proved false doesn't mean you should believe it's true. Religion makes a ton of claims which can't be tested, and believers are very fond of saying...........well you can't prove that xyz is false.

If you want the least false religion, then you should pick the one which makes the least number of claims.


So, if one accepts the premise of Pascal, and accepts that Islam is clearly the best choice among religions, it would then be logical to believe in Islam.

No we can pascal wager on pascals wager.

Maybe there is a God who punishes people with eternal torment who adhere to pascals wager.

Better to be safe and not adhere to pascals wager.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
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10/12/2013 12:41:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Pascal's wager: Believing in and searching for Kryptonite on the off chance that Superman exists and wants to kill you."
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
bulproof
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10/12/2013 1:51:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/12/2013 12:41:07 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
"Pascal's wager: Believing in and searching for Kryptonite on the off chance that Superman exists and wants to kill you."
Nominate for post of the week!
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Mysterious_Stranger
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10/12/2013 3:02:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yes, it is not real. God does not exist. You have provided no evidence to support why we should believe Islam.
Turn around, go back.
Graincruncher
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10/12/2013 3:28:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/11/2013 11:12:03 PM, HPWKA wrote:
What I'm essentially asking, is why should a reasonable person NOT believe in Islam?

Because it is a revolting, backward, barbaric, sexist, oppressive religion with no evidence to back it up, plenty to disprove it and absolutely nothing positive to offer anyone that couldn't be found somewhere else without the associated unicorns, child molestation, violence and bigotry.

Tell me; why should any reasonable person look at miraculous claims as made hundreds of years ago and take them seriously? Why should reasonable person look at the state of modern Islam and think "yeah, I'd like to be a part of this - there isn't enough mindless murder, paedophilia and Dark Age anti-science propaganda in the world!"?

You may want to get your own house in order before inviting others in and then acting surprised when they decline the offer.
HPWKA
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10/12/2013 9:07:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/12/2013 12:04:46 AM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
What is the Islamic position on Jesus Christ?

And why so much focus on Muhammad?

Islam considers Jesus to be a Prophet of God, same as Muhammad, David, Moses, etc...

Muslims seem to put a lot of emphasis on Muhammad, because he is the "last" Prophet, he was the one who revealed the Quran, and the one no other religion really believes in. But he's not more important then the others prophets, per say.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.