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christianity is POLYTHEISTIC religion

Artur
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10/12/2013 8:44:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
according to wikipedia or christian sources: christianity is monotheistic religion. http://en.wikipedia.org...

christians say that their religion is monotheistic. but how much is it true?

I say it is polytheistic, not me, according to John 1:1 it is polytheistic.
there 2 or three verses among I have read in the new testament(which is a part of the bible) which contradicts monotheism. now I will start by using one of them, I think every christian or the one who is interested in the bible knows this verse, one of the most famous slogans in christianity of course if not the most famous. John 1:1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...

now, let us analyse this verse, does it contradict to monotheism or not.

I will analyse it with giving an example, in my example I will act as GOD, the word will stay as Jesus. I say Jesus instead of word and Artur instead of god, in my example.

in the beginning was Jesus(the word), and Jesus(the word) was with Artur(GOD), and Jesus(word) was GOD.

now according to this verse, we have our FIRST GOD with whom was the word. I named GOD Artur, and the word was with Artur. Artur is god. here is our first god. here is one god.

and the word was with me(GOD), and word was god. this means: word was god in his own, and saying that god was with god makes 2 gods.

WORD is GOD itself(and the Word was God.) and it was WITH GOD(and the Word was with God).

saying that: GoD was WITH GOD makes two GODS.

it is like to: Artur was at home and he was talking with his friend.

here, it makes two humans. that verse is also like that: word was god and was with another god.
some may say me: read it with whole context, I have read it with whole context too, I have read old and new testament.

I hope it is clear for you.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
Composer
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10/12/2013 8:55:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/12/2013 8:44:05 PM, Artur wrote:
according to wikipedia or christian sources: christianity is monotheistic religion. http://en.wikipedia.org...

christians say that their religion is monotheistic. but how much is it true?

I say it is polytheistic, not me, according to John 1:1 it is polytheistic.
there 2 or three verses among I have read in the new testament(which is a part of the bible) which contradicts monotheism. now I will start by using one of them, I think every christian or the one who is interested in the bible knows this verse, one of the most famous slogans in christianity of course if not the most famous. John 1:1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...

now, let us analyse this verse, does it contradict to monotheism or not.

I will analyse it with giving an example, in my example I will act as GOD, the word will stay as Jesus. I say Jesus instead of word and Artur instead of god, in my example.

in the beginning was Jesus(the word), and Jesus(the word) was with Artur(GOD), and Jesus(word) was GOD.

now according to this verse, we have our FIRST GOD with whom was the word. I named GOD Artur, and the word was with Artur. Artur is god. here is our first god. here is one god.

and the word was with me(GOD), and word was god. this means: word was god in his own, and saying that god was with god makes 2 gods.

WORD is GOD itself(and the Word was God.) and it was WITH GOD(and the Word was with God).

saying that: GoD was WITH GOD makes two GODS.

it is like to: Artur was at home and he was talking with his friend.

here, it makes two humans. that verse is also like that: word was god and was with another god.
some may say me: read it with whole context, I have read it with whole context too, I have read old and new testament.

I hope it is clear for you.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
Using the pagan based trinitarian ideology that claims their jebus = the Word?

The fact that Story book John 1: 1 states ' the word had a beginning ', then that immediately proves the trinitarian jebus was not a literal pre-existent being/god, because the biblical god is claimed to have always existed i.e. never had a beginning!

Hence John 1: 1 rather than helping the Johnny come lately pagan based trinitarian cause/ideology, unambiguously decimates it!
annanicole
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10/12/2013 9:17:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Artur: Concluding statement: "I hope it is clear for you."

Anna: Yep. Thanks. I had been monumentally bewitched, bothered, and bewildered about John 1: 1 until I read your post. By the time I was ... oh ... about 4/5th down the page, it was like the fog lifted, and the clear daylight came in.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Artur
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10/12/2013 9:55:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/12/2013 8:55:05 PM, Composer wrote:
At 10/12/2013 8:44:05 PM, Artur wrote:
according to wikipedia or christian sources: christianity is monotheistic religion. http://en.wikipedia.org...

christians say that their religion is monotheistic. but how much is it true?

I say it is polytheistic, not me, according to John 1:1 it is polytheistic.
there 2 or three verses among I have read in the new testament(which is a part of the bible) which contradicts monotheism. now I will start by using one of them, I think every christian or the one who is interested in the bible knows this verse, one of the most famous slogans in christianity of course if not the most famous. John 1:1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...

now, let us analyse this verse, does it contradict to monotheism or not.

I will analyse it with giving an example, in my example I will act as GOD, the word will stay as Jesus. I say Jesus instead of word and Artur instead of god, in my example.

in the beginning was Jesus(the word), and Jesus(the word) was with Artur(GOD), and Jesus(word) was GOD.

now according to this verse, we have our FIRST GOD with whom was the word. I named GOD Artur, and the word was with Artur. Artur is god. here is our first god. here is one god.

and the word was with me(GOD), and word was god. this means: word was god in his own, and saying that god was with god makes 2 gods.

WORD is GOD itself(and the Word was God.) and it was WITH GOD(and the Word was with God).

saying that: GoD was WITH GOD makes two GODS.

it is like to: Artur was at home and he was talking with his friend.

here, it makes two humans. that verse is also like that: word was god and was with another god.
some may say me: read it with whole context, I have read it with whole context too, I have read old and new testament.

I hope it is clear for you.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
Using the pagan based trinitarian ideology that claims their jebus = the Word?

The fact that Story book John 1: 1 states ' the word had a beginning ', then that immediately proves the trinitarian jebus was not a literal pre-existent being/god, because the biblical god is claimed to have always existed i.e. never had a beginning!

Hence John 1: 1 rather than helping the Johnny come lately pagan based trinitarian cause/ideology, unambiguously decimates it!

no matter pagan or anything else, the polytheism is still valid from this verse.

it is not just the word had beginning, it says in the beginning was the word and it was with god.

still [at least] two gods.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
annanicole
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10/13/2013 7:12:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Artur: "no matter pagan or anything else, the polytheism is still valid from this verse. it is not just the word had beginning, it says in the beginning was the word and it was with god.
still [at least] two gods."

Anna: " .... and these three are one."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Artur
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10/13/2013 8:20:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/13/2013 7:12:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
Artur: "no matter pagan or anything else, the polytheism is still valid from this verse. it is not just the word had beginning, it says in the beginning was the word and it was with god.
still [at least] two gods."

Anna: " .... and these three are one."

these are are one.

this is called: 1+1+1=1 do you agree that 1+1+1=1

I think christianity needs to be trained at mathematics.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
Artur
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10/13/2013 8:25:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
these three are one.

I do not remember exactly, but I guess it was 1 john 5:7 which says it.

according to the logic these three are one then it means: word(Jesus) was 1/3 of god, father was 1/3 of god and ghost was one 1/3 of god. but what does John 1:1 say about it? does it say: in the beginning was the word, and word was with the 1/3 of god and the word was 1/3 of god.

or does it say: in the beginning was the word and the word was GOD and the word was GOD.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
airmax1227
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10/13/2013 8:38:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm not sure what's wrong with being polytheistic (seems just as logical and provable that there are 20 different gods for things as god sacrificed himself to himself to atone for mankinds sins)... I actually think both of those beliefs are fascinating and cool, even if I don't personally believe them.

The only issue I see with it is trying to convince groups like Jews to join such a religion, and attempting to bury these polytheistic tendencies with theological rationalizations.

I'm also not sure how such a thing can be avoided from an evolutionary stand point. Christian origins don't speak of the trinity or virgin birth etc, but when Christianity converts to Rome (as oppose to Rome eventually converting to Christianity) I don't see how any of that is avoidable.

So more power to polytheists. In the more dramatic ethos of polytheism I think it's pretty cool to believe that there is a separate god for everything. Greek mythology wouldn't be nearly as interesting without it.
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Artur
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10/13/2013 8:41:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
these three are one.

how can three be one? let us analyse it.

Jesus=1/3 of god. father=1/3 of god and ghost=1/3 of god. then this three can make one god.

but john 1:1 says word was god. not one third of god.

anyway, let us say: this three are one. when they are combined the god exists when they are not combined then no god. people live without god.

Jesus has lived in the world about 33 years, he seperated from other two and then died at least 3 days. this means that during the life of Jesus, world had no GOD.

then Jesus propogated people to the GOD which was absent at the moment.

during 33 years atheism ruled and in the future Jesus is expected to come back, as he comes back then again world will remain godless, it will be no god because that three are one means that that 3 are one god. when one is absent, they become two, not 3. then no god.

or let us think: Jesus was god, Father was god, ghost was god no matter they are combined or seperated. even at the time Jesus lived with us then other two godS were present.

but then it makes 3 gods and it makes polytheist. the one who authored the bible or that verses needed to learn maths.

but it was john who authored neither. once he showed two gods(John 1:1) and then said that gods are one(1 john 5:7) he contradicts himself.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
annanicole
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10/13/2013 8:41:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"this is called: 1+1+1=1 do you agree that 1+1+1=1"

Yep. Do you honestly think that no one has ever thought of this?

Since we are asking questions, do you even believe that "in the beginning the Word was with God"? Is the statement, "the Word was with God" true or not?

Do you even believe that the word became flesh?

I'm not sure exactly what you believe, but when you answer, I'll find out.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Artur
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10/13/2013 9:09:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/13/2013 8:41:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
"this is called: 1+1+1=1 do you agree that 1+1+1=1"

Yep. Do you honestly think that no one has ever thought of this?

Since we are asking questions, do you even believe that "in the beginning the Word was with God"? Is the statement, "the Word was with God" true or not?

Do you even believe that the word became flesh?

I'm not sure exactly what you believe, but when you answer, I'll find out.

I will not say the statement the Word was with God" true or not? true or false. I do not know exactly, maybe word was with god or it is one of the lies of the bible. neither is possible.

did word become flesh? according to christianity, it became.
I do not believe it.

you do not need to try to clarify from my answer, I am deist.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
Artur
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10/13/2013 9:16:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/13/2013 9:09:47 PM, Artur wrote:
At 10/13/2013 8:41:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
"this is called: 1+1+1=1 do you agree that 1+1+1=1"

Yep. Do you honestly think that no one has ever thought of this?


i have forgotten to answer it.
I think no christian has ever thought of this.
maybe some thought but not realised or accepted.

the one who thinks it and realises who error this is will not be a christian, I guess.

because knowing that 1+1+1=/=1 and accepting it makes one is to lie yourself, absurdity. I do not think that somebody knows that 1+1+1/=/=1 then he will accept it.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
Composer
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10/13/2013 11:19:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/12/2013 8:44:05 PM, Artur wrote:
according to wikipedia or christian sources: christianity is monotheistic religion. http://en.wikipedia.org...

christians say that their religion is monotheistic. but how much is it true?

I say it is polytheistic, not me, according to John 1:1 it is polytheistic.
there 2 or three verses among I have read in the new testament(which is a part of the bible) which contradicts monotheism. now I will start by using one of them, I think every christian or the one who is interested in the bible knows this verse, one of the most famous slogans in christianity of course if not the most famous. John 1:1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...

now, let us analyse this verse, does it contradict to monotheism or not.

I will analyse it with giving an example, in my example I will act as GOD, the word will stay as Jesus. I say Jesus instead of word and Artur instead of god, in my example.

in the beginning was Jesus(the word), and Jesus(the word) was with Artur(GOD), and Jesus(word) was GOD.

now according to this verse, we have our FIRST GOD with whom was the word. I named GOD Artur, and the word was with Artur. Artur is god. here is our first god. here is one god.

and the word was with me(GOD), and word was god. this means: word was god in his own, and saying that god was with god makes 2 gods.

WORD is GOD itself(and the Word was God.) and it was WITH GOD(and the Word was with God).

saying that: GoD was WITH GOD makes two GODS.

it is like to: Artur was at home and he was talking with his friend.

here, it makes two humans. that verse is also like that: word was god and was with another god.
some may say me: read it with whole context, I have read it with whole context too, I have read old and new testament.

I hope it is clear for you.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...

At 10/12/2013 8:55:05 PM, Composer wrote:
Using the pagan based trinitarian ideology that claims their jebus = the Word?

The fact that Story book John 1: 1 states ' the word had a beginning ', then that immediately proves the trinitarian jebus was not a literal pre-existent being/god, because the biblical god is claimed to have always existed i.e. never had a beginning!

Hence John 1: 1 rather than helping the Johnny come lately pagan based trinitarian cause/ideology, unambiguously decimates it!

At 10/12/2013 9:55:54 PM, Artur wrote:
no matter pagan or anything else, the polytheism is still valid from this verse.

it is not just the word had beginning, it says in the beginning was the word and it was with god.

still [at least] two gods.
Nope!

I speak and my words emanate from me, but I am still only just me & not two me's!

&

14. Newcome in his Translation of the New Testament remarks, "Jesus the Son of God, is called the Word, because God revealed himself or his word by him." The following singular Eastern custom may perhaps illustrate the phraseology of the first part of this chapter. "In Abyssinia, there is an officer named Kal Hatze ; the word or voice of the king, who stands always upon the steps of the throne, at the side of a lattice window, where there is a hole, covered in the inside with a curtain of green taffeta. Behind this curtain the king sits; and speaks through the aperture to the Kal Hatze, who communicates his commands to the officers, judges, and attendants .- Bruce's travels

&

English translations of the Bible before the KJV rendered the beginning of John 1: "All things were made through it and without it nothing was made that was made. In it was life"." Similarly a number of modern German and French translations describe the word as "it," not "him." There is no reason, therefore, to think of the word as a Person, until it becomes embodied in Jesus in John 1:14. Remember that "word" in the Hebrew Bible, the background to the New Testament, never meant a Person in all of its 1455 occurrences. There is no indication in the Old Testament that the Messiah would be a person before his conception. The very opposite was taught: The Messiah would expressly not be God, but a unique, final "prophet like Moses," coming into being from a family in Israel (see Deut. 18:15-19; Acts 3:22; 7:37)

&

(The Early Christian Doctrine of God, R.M. Grant, D.D., Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity, Divinity School, University of Chicago).

"The Word," said John, "became flesh." We could put it in another way " "the Mind of God became a person"

William Barclay, Gospel of John, Saint Andrews Press, 1957, Vol. 1, 14. God's wisdom became flesh in the man Jesus.

Composer
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10/13/2013 11:30:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It is true however that the corrupt trinitarian ideology later introduced, is polytheistic in construct, however the Earliest & Original beliefs were strictly monotheistic.

e.g. -

" It was impossible for the Apostles to identify Christ with Jehovah. Psalm 110:1 and Malachi 3:1 prevented this " (Charles C. Bigg, D.D. Regius Professor of Ecclesiastical History, Oxford, in International Critical Commentary on I Peter).

&

"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian"It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461).

&

"The propositions constitutive of the dogma of the Trinity were not drawn from the New Testament and could not be expressed in New Testament terms. They were the products of reason speculating on a revelation to faith. . . they were only formed through centuries of effort, only elaborated by the aid of the conceptions and formulated in the terms of Greek and Roman metaphysics." (Source: Encyclopedia Britannica)
Artur
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10/13/2013 11:54:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
@anna about 1 john 5:7

@composer:
{{{I speak and my words emanate from me, but I am still only just me & not two me's!}}}

I am not discussing what he said, according to the bible john 1:1 there are [at least] two gods.

saying of Jesus that only just me does not make others do not exist, it is like to: if I say there is only one person in the world and only just me there is no other person than me, all people are me. you ignore second god because one says there is just me. one god says there is no god other than him, and one person(me) says there is no person other than me, if refusing of Jesus of the second god makes no other god, then refusing of mine that other people exist has also possibility that there is only one person in the world, and that one is me.

how much percentage does your arguement above have credit, I hope you got it.

{{{Newcome in his Translation of the New Testament remarks, "Jesus the Son of God, is called the Word, because God revealed himself or his word by him." The following singular Eastern custom may perhaps illustrate the phraseology of the first part of this chapter. "In Abyssinia, there is an officer named Kal Hatze ; the word or voice of the king, who stands always upon the steps of the throne, at the side of a lattice window, where there is a hole, covered in the inside with a curtain of green taffeta. Behind this curtain the king sits; and speaks through the aperture to the Kal Hatze, who communicates his commands to the officers, judges, and attendants .- Bruce's travels}}}

who denied that by saying word they indicate Jesus? who denied that by saying the son christianity indicated Jesus? me? not me, I have not denied that christianity means Jesus by saying neither word of god or son of god.

as the word or voice of king and the king itself makes two peopple, the word which was god itself and the god who was together with word make two gods.

{{{English translations of the Bible before the KJV rendered the beginning of John 1: "All things were made through it and without it nothing was made that was made. In it was life"}}}
there are so many people in the world excpet christians who say: bible had corruptions over the years but christians deny it while they admit it without knowing. some christians accept that the bible had corruptions over the centuries.

by bringing this sentence as an arguement you also accept that bible had corruptions? current bible does not start as you showed.

{{{Similarly a number of modern German and French translations describe the word as "it," not "him." There is no reason, therefore, to think of the word as a Person, until it becomes embodied in Jesus in John 1:14. Remember that "word" in the Hebrew Bible, the background to the New Testament, never meant a Person in all of its 1455 occurrences. There is no indication in the Old Testament that the Messiah would be a person before his conception. The very opposite was taught: The Messiah would expressly not be God, but a unique, final "prophet like Moses," coming into being from a family in Israel (see Deut. 18:15-19; Acts 3:22; 7:37)}}}

I think you are muslim.
if there is a diffrence between german/french and english then either one is incorrect.

by saying him, english version thinks that Jesus is man and male.
by saying "it" then it becomes animal or bacteria or e.t.c
according to the old testament, there is only one god, some places old testament says there is just one god and e.t.c no notion like trinity(trinity does not exist even in the new testament)
your last sentece shows that you are not muslim, you are not protestant or catholic. what is your belief? if not private?!

by the way, the source you gave, the doctors you quoted are ignored and refused by christian world. Barclay.

now, my point:
I am discussing what the KJV bible says, KJV bible john 1:1 shows that there are more than one gods, if you say it is misstranslated or it is done by willing and e.t.c you may.

even if you say I am christian and I do not accept KJV as the true version that is also accepted as an arguement.

but my arguements are also valid, because KJV is a valid bible, at the time christian world demolishes/revokes the KJV bible or at least unless this verse gets canceled and deleted and claimed as an error this is a source from christianity, whether you accept it or not.

now my arguement is from the bible which has a validity, this verse has validity. maybe it has been corrupted but still it is the source of the belief of the people who accepts this book as the word of god.

according to this verse there are two gods at least, I analysed it, my arguement will lose its validity at the time this verse gets canceled and claimed as an error, as long as it is not canceled, then the religion of the bible has two gods at least.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
Artur
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10/14/2013 12:01:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/13/2013 11:30:13 PM, Composer wrote:
It is true however that the corrupt trinitarian ideology later introduced, is polytheistic in construct, however the Earliest & Original beliefs were strictly monotheistic.

e.g. -

" It was impossible for the Apostles to identify Christ with Jehovah. Psalm 110:1 and Malachi 3:1 prevented this " (Charles C. Bigg, D.D. Regius Professor of Ecclesiastical History, Oxford, in International Critical Commentary on I Peter).

&

"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian"It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461).

&

"The propositions constitutive of the dogma of the Trinity were not drawn from the New Testament and could not be expressed in New Testament terms. They were the products of reason speculating on a revelation to faith. . . they were only formed through centuries of effort, only elaborated by the aid of the conceptions and formulated in the terms of Greek and Roman metaphysics." (Source: Encyclopedia Britannica)

if one says: "that bible is corrupted" or trinity is an ideology which contained later, I will not deny. maybe I will say.

I also know that trinity is not according to bible, maybe this verse is also a fruit of the people who created myth like trinity.

but I am discussing what the KJV bible says, and the people who accept KJV bible and say there is only god, they are the thing I am discussing.

KJV is the constituition of christianity(according to many people) and according to it, there are two gods.

if you do not accept the trinity or current bible and accept christ as not god, then it is your belief, I will not say anything but bible is a public thing and can be discussed.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
annanicole
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10/14/2013 3:00:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
artur: "did word become flesh? according to christianity, it became. I do not believe it.

Anna: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". If you don't believe and accept that, then why do you worry about what the same writer said just thirteen verses prior? If I were going to reject part of it, I'd just reject all of it - or else I'd become a Catholic (since they reject part of it, without rejecting all of it - constantly)
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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10/14/2013 3:05:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Artur: "I think no christian has ever thought of this. maybe some thought but not realised or accepted."

Anna: Ummm ... ok. Don't get out much, eh?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Artur
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10/14/2013 12:24:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/14/2013 3:00:56 AM, annanicole wrote:
artur: "did word become flesh? according to christianity, it became. I do not believe it.

Anna: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". If you don't believe and accept that, then why do you worry about what the same writer said just thirteen verses prior? If I were going to reject part of it, I'd just reject all of it - or else I'd become a Catholic (since they reject part of it, without rejecting all of it - constantly)

I do not believe.

in order to discuss and show errors do we need to believe? can not we discus without believing? we can.

I do not worry about it, I want people not to believe a contradiction like that. they think that they believe in monotheism but in fact it is polytheism, time to realise reality.

people who created the doctrine of trinity and its monotheistic figure lie people, I showed it, it is a lie and I want people to realise it.

yes, I deny all of it, bible has some good stuff, almost every book has it but the bible is not my belief.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer