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Proof for G-d in Judaism?

MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/24/2013 12:40:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,079
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10/25/2013 2:09:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 12:40:42 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.
MoralityProfessor Good to meet you..
I reply: There are 1.2 BILLION Catholics that is Billion with a "B"!!
Catholics believe God created all of "Creation" and became part of his creation in the "MAN" Jesus Christ!
We believe also God is going to make "Man" part of himself in the "God/Man" Jesus Christ!

God becoming part of Creation!
Creation becoming part of God!

John 14:19-
New International Version (NIV)
Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."


MoralityProfessor the words "I AM" in the verse (above & below)

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

The Catholic Church is the New Jerusalem a NEW Nation!
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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10/25/2013 4:47:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: "The Catholic Church is the New Jerusalem a NEW Nation!"

Anna: If the Catholic Church is the New Jerusalem, all of the inspired writers of the New Testament failed to point it out. You certainly get a lot of mileage out of "tradition" - and it all sounds halfway decent until you ultimately get around to telling everyone that the ultimate authority on everything is not tradition ... not the scriptures ... not the church fathers, but the Roman Catholic Church!
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
Posts: 5,079
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10/25/2013 5:39:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 4:47:08 PM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "The Catholic Church is the New Jerusalem a NEW Nation!"

Anna: If the Catholic Church is the New Jerusalem, all of the inspired writers of the New Testament failed to point it out. You certainly get a lot of mileage out of "tradition" - and it all sounds halfway decent until you ultimately get around to telling everyone that the ultimate authority on everything is not tradition ... not the scriptures ... not the church fathers, but the Roman Catholic Church!
annanicole The Catholic Church is the AUTHORITY.
She uses the Scriptures and Tradition to TEACH to REBUKE to TRAIN and to CORRECT!

On the other hand you claim Scriptures ALONE are your ONLY authority, but accept the teaching of your man made church!???
annanicole we both know there is NO SCRIPTURES saying: "Scriptures are the >ONLY< truth!!
Your church TEACHES, you accept the TEACHING of your church!!

By your own belief of "Scriptures are the ONLY TRUTH" you MUST REJECT the scriptures to accept the man made teaching of "Scriptures ALONE are the only truth"!
Your church can't teach a lick if you accept ONLY the Scriptures as your authority!!
NO..
No scriptures can be found saying; "Scriptures are the ONLY AUTHORITY!"
No scriptures can be found saying; "Do not baptize infants"!
No scriptures can be found saying; "No music in Church"!
No scriptures can be found saying; "Symbolic Communion"!"
These TEACHINGS you accept as truth OUTSIDE of the scriptures! They are all TRADITIONS of your man made church!

annanicole They are all TRADITIONS of your man made church!
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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10/25/2013 6:47:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: "By your own belief of "Scriptures are the ONLY TRUTH" you MUST REJECT the scriptures to accept the man made teaching of "Scriptures ALONE are the only truth"!

Anna: I didn't say that the scriptures alone were the basis for arriving at the truth.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Jingram994
Posts: 211
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10/25/2013 11:22:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 12:40:42 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

Well, really, how do we have any way of knowing that '3 million' people actually, directly 'saw God'? How do we know that the biblical God directly handed them the Torah, as opposed to, say, giving it to one or two people, who then handed it down, or that some guys made it up? How do we actually know that this *really* happened?

We don't. We have the say-so of a book that this actually happened. How many people this book says were involved doesn't really matter. If it happened once, why would God fail to appear ever again, in order to back up the thing he handed to the Jewish people? Simply, God directly appearing in front of 3 million people and directly handing all of them a divinely written book is totally contrary to how we know reality works. Divine beings simply do not appear in reality, and even in the extraordinarily unlikely event that they did, we still know they don't do it in front of millions of people. If it were verifiable, we'd *know* about it. The odds of something as insanely extraordinary as this happening once are pretty much literally nil. The odds are in fact *much higher* of it happening several times than just once. If this was really just a 'once off', then what was even the point in the first place?

How about if several million people told you that, it is said in a book their people hold holy, that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisonous? This is closer to the actual situation, and is not nearly as reliable a testimony as the direct say so from first-hand knowledge of 3 million people. 3 million people saying 'Our holy book says it will have been poisoned' is not even close to as reliable as one or two people saying 'I saw it get poisoned'. Nobody can directly relay seeing God or having the Torah handed to them directly from him. A holy book doing nothing more than upping the numbers of supposed direct witnesses to God doesn't really help this book's credibility at all.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,079
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10/26/2013 12:26:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 6:47:59 PM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "By your own belief of "Scriptures are the ONLY TRUTH" you MUST REJECT the scriptures to accept the man made teaching of "Scriptures ALONE are the only truth"!

Anna: I didn't say that the scriptures alone were the basis for arriving at the truth.
I reply: You are a hypocrite!
You DO say the Scriptures are your only authority.. Then why your comment (below)?!
Your words... the ultimate authority on everything is not tradition ... not the scriptures ... not the church fathers, but the Roman Catholic Church!
annanicole YES the Ultimate Authority is the Catholic Church.
You reject the ONE Church Jesus established for a man made church; TEACHING YOU what is not found in the scriptures!

The Church Fathers are NOT the Scriptures ALONE!
annanicole You reject the "Church Fathers" telling you "Baptize Infants" but they also tell you "No music in Church" you/your church have decided what Church Fathers to accept and what ones to reject! You/your church ARE the "Ultimate Authority"!
One you reject the next you accept!

You/your church decided Jesus' words are not true, that Jesus does not mean his real Flesh and Blood.

"My flesh is real food my blood is real drink"!
You have taken it upon yourselves (you/your church) to decide what is truth OVER the scriptures!

The Holy Catholic Church was established by Jesus, he remains ALWAYS with his Church TO THE END OF TIME, JESUS sent the Holy Spirit to guide his established Catholic Church FOREVER!!

Listen to the Church or be removed as a Pagan!
annanicole You reject the scriptures..
Jesus loves his Church!
Jesus died for his Church!
Jesus' Church is Holy without stain>>BLAMELESS!

annanicole Jesus is GOD he does not lie, Satan did not take Jesus' established Church from Jesus!
God does not fail, so his established Church did not, it cannot fail!

You reject all the scriptures telling you to trust in Jesus; To trust in your man made church TEACHING YOU TRADITIONS things not found in the scriptures and what the Church fathers did not ever teach!

The Church fathers never taught "Symbolic Communion", they know better then to reject the scriptures!

Symbolic Communion is not found in the scriptures it is not taught by the Church Fathers, it was NEVER a TRADITION!

You have made it a tradition against the Scriptures, LOGIC the early Church Fathers!
You have your TRADITIONS!!
You have your little pope TEACHING YOU, teachings you accept as truth!
You are the AUTHORITY over the scriptures, Tradition, and the Early Church fathers... You are a HYPOCRITE!
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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10/26/2013 8:44:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Dogknox: "By your own belief of "Scriptures are the ONLY TRUTH" you MUST REJECT the scriptures to accept the man made teaching of "Scriptures ALONE are the only truth"!

Anna: I didn't say that the scriptures alone were the basis for arriving at the truth.

Dogknox: I reply: You are a hypocrite!

You DO say the Scriptures are your only authority.. Then why your comment (below)?!

Your words... "the ultimate authority on everything is not tradition ... not the scriptures ... not the church fathers, but the Roman Catholic Church!"

Anna: Why, it means just what it says: your ultimate authority in matters relgious is neither the scriptures, nor tradition, nor the church fathers, nor a combination. No, your authority is the Roman Catholic Church. And you prove that the Roman Catholic Church has the authority by .... what?

Say, Dogknox, tell us your AUTHORITY in deciding that the Roman Catholic Church is the authority. You see, you go in one big circle.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/26/2013 12:07:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 2:09:48 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:40:42 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.
MoralityProfessor Good to meet you..
I reply: There are 1.2 BILLION Catholics that is Billion with a "B"!!
Catholics believe God created all of "Creation" and became part of his creation in the "MAN" Jesus Christ!
We believe also God is going to make "Man" part of himself in the "God/Man" Jesus Christ!

God becoming part of Creation!
Creation becoming part of God!

John 14:19-
New International Version (NIV)
Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."


MoralityProfessor the words "I AM" in the verse (above & below)

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

The Catholic Church is the New Jerusalem a NEW Nation!

My response to that, from a purely logical point of view, is that this does not equate to the situation mentioned above. You have billions of individual accounts of separate events. The situation you give is that G-d is *in me* and He tells me to follow Him (and all His other followers) as opposed to Him publicly announcing it to all that believe in Him.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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10/26/2013 4:24:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lawrence Kelemen does a really excellent job of explaining why "National revelation" is such a significant and unique claim.
Debate.org Moderator
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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12/1/2013 7:12:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 11:22:13 PM, Jingram994 wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:40:42 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

Well, really, how do we have any way of knowing that '3 million' people actually, directly 'saw God'? How do we know that the biblical God directly handed them the Torah, as opposed to, say, giving it to one or two people, who then handed it down, or that some guys made it up? How do we actually know that this *really* happened?

We don't. We have the say-so of a book that this actually happened. How many people this book says were involved doesn't really matter. If it happened once, why would God fail to appear ever again, in order to back up the thing he handed to the Jewish people? Simply, God directly appearing in front of 3 million people and directly handing all of them a divinely written book is totally contrary to how we know reality works. Divine beings simply do not appear in reality, and even in the extraordinarily unlikely event that they did, we still know they don't do it in front of millions of people. If it were verifiable, we'd *know* about it. The odds of something as insanely extraordinary as this happening once are pretty much literally nil. The odds are in fact *much higher* of it happening several times than just once. If this was really just a 'once off', then what was even the point in the first place?

How about if several million people told you that, it is said in a book their people hold holy, that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisonous? This is closer to the actual situation, and is not nearly as reliable a testimony as the direct say so from first-hand knowledge of 3 million people. 3 million people saying 'Our holy book says it will have been poisoned' is not even close to as reliable as one or two people saying 'I saw it get poisoned'. Nobody can directly relay seeing God or having the Torah handed to them directly from him. A holy book doing nothing more than upping the numbers of supposed direct witnesses to God doesn't really help this book's credibility at all.

Firstly, my sincerest apologies. I saw this post, meant to get back to it, and.... A month later, here we are. Anyway, here goes:

The distinction between Judaism and other religions (it seems I forgot to mention this explicitly) is not simply in mass revelation, but in mass transmission as well. In all other religions, at some point during transmission, a single person was required for the transmitting of information which makes the claim dubious, to say the least.

If the revelation at Sinai is to be considered false, that would have to mean that at some point in Jewish history (after the mass revelation) a single individual was responsible for the transmission of the Torah. However, we have no such tradition. We don't believe that Moses came down from the mountain and told us what G-d said, rather that G-d Himself spoke to us.

So, yes, someone could write a book claiming that G-d spoke to billions of people. But you couldn't write a book claiming that G-d spoke to me as that is invariably an easy assertion to disprove. But that is what we'd have to assume Moses did if the revelation was in fact a lie. (That is, he convinced three million people G-d spoke to them.)

Once again however, at no point after the mass revelation has the transmission of the Torah ever been dependent upon the word of a single individual.

The questions you ask, while legitimate, don't address the claim. Just because G-d hasn't appeared again doesn't mean that He didn't the first time. You write that Divine beings appearing to multitudes of people is contrary to how reality works. I answer that with the last bit I wrote. Assuming that it was a natural event (I.e. No divine being involved and the Jewish people were tricked into believing that they saw G-d) why has no other religion or nation ever made such a claim again? Natural events are reoccurring, but no other religion of sizable number has ever claimed to witness G-d firsthand. Having said that, it would seem the event was a supernatural one - which would not conform to the laws of reality.

What was the point in the first place? That is also a valid question but doesn't refute the claim. The answer involves a lot about Jewish tradition which at this point I will not give simply because I don't want to preach. If you're genuinely interested in the answer however, I can certainly respond.

I'd also like to point out that Judaism does not require one to be Jewish in order to be considered good or get into heaven. There are plenty of Jewish people that did not make it there, I am sure. As such, this isn't an attempt to convert anybody, I'm simply trying to have a rational discussion about the authenticity behind the above claim.

Thanks.