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Judaism and G-d

MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/24/2013 3:13:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I didn't know about this story, do you mean it was revealed to all 3 million people , or that 3 million people witnessed that their Prophet was a prophet of God ?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/24/2013 3:18:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

And they still couldn't obey the commandments of God.
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
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10/24/2013 3:28:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

Sounds like Lawrence Kelemen ;) (only he presents it better, after all, he's been doing it for 20+ years).
You may be interested in: http://lawrencekelemen.com... , http://www.aish.com... , http://www.simpletoremember.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com....

You may also be interested in a different form of the argument as presented by David Gottlieb PhD (a former Professor of Philosophy at Johns Hopkins University.) http://ohr.edu... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com...

Finally, there is a formulation by Dr. Sam Leben: http://philosophyofjudaism.blogspot.com...
(Dr. Sam Lebens holds a PhD from the University of London in metaphysics and logic. & is a post-doctoral research fellow at the Centre for Philosophy of Religion, at the University of Notre Dame.)

In my experience, most people don't appreciate the argument.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/24/2013 3:46:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 3:28:10 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

Sounds like Lawrence Kelemen ;) (only he presents it better, after all, he's been doing it for 20+ years).
You may be interested in: http://lawrencekelemen.com... , http://www.aish.com... , http://www.simpletoremember.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com....

You may also be interested in a different form of the argument as presented by David Gottlieb PhD (a former Professor of Philosophy at Johns Hopkins University.) http://ohr.edu... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com...

Finally, there is a formulation by Dr. Sam Leben: http://philosophyofjudaism.blogspot.com...
(Dr. Sam Lebens holds a PhD from the University of London in metaphysics and logic. & is a post-doctoral research fellow at the Centre for Philosophy of Religion, at the University of Notre Dame.)

In my experience, most people don't appreciate the argument.

Oh, yeah. For sure. This is highly based on Lawrence Keleman's argument. :)

It seemed like a pretty rational argument to me and I wondered if anyone else might find criticism with it. I'm slightly biased, being Jewish myself, so I thought to ask those that might not agree with the stance,

So, *why* don't people appreciate the argument?
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/24/2013 3:55:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 3:18:16 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

And they still couldn't obey the commandments of God.

I'm not really sure what your point is with that. Care to elaborate?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/24/2013 4:06:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

In the book of exodus no-one saw Moses get the Law from God, since he was up in the mountains whilst they were betraying him with the Golden Calf in the foothills. They could not have seen anything.

The trouble with the Jews, whether as Israel or later the much reduced version Judah, they couldn't stay faithful for any length of time, which is why, in the end, God replaced them with Spiritual Israel, the early Christian Congregation, which didn't stay faithful any longer than the Jews did either.

With Israel it didn't matter how many miracles God did for them, or how spectacular those miracles were, they soon forgot all about them and were unfaithful again.

There are those of us who have experienced God and Christ through the action of holy spirit, I don't know if you would class that as first hand, and those of us who have grown so close to them we think of them as the greatest friends we have ever had, but few believe us.

Not really surprising, it is very hard to credit it unless you experience it for yourself. Sometimes it is difficult to believe even then, but you still can't deny it once you have experienced it. Who cares if people laugh, let them, it's their loss, I know it's true.
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/24/2013 4:07:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 3:13:07 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
I didn't know about this story, do you mean it was revealed to all 3 million people , or that 3 million people witnessed that their Prophet was a prophet of God ?

I mean that 3 million people were spoken to directly by G-d. He revealed the first two commandments, each time the entire nation died and had to be resurrected. By the third commandment, the nation requested that Moses speak, 'lest we die'. (Exodus, 20:15). So, yes, it was revealed to all 3 million people.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/24/2013 4:08:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 3:46:15 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:28:10 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

Sounds like Lawrence Kelemen ;) (only he presents it better, after all, he's been doing it for 20+ years).
You may be interested in: http://lawrencekelemen.com... , http://www.aish.com... , http://www.simpletoremember.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com....

You may also be interested in a different form of the argument as presented by David Gottlieb PhD (a former Professor of Philosophy at Johns Hopkins University.) http://ohr.edu... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com...

Finally, there is a formulation by Dr. Sam Leben: http://philosophyofjudaism.blogspot.com...
(Dr. Sam Lebens holds a PhD from the University of London in metaphysics and logic. & is a post-doctoral research fellow at the Centre for Philosophy of Religion, at the University of Notre Dame.)

In my experience, most people don't appreciate the argument.

Oh, yeah. For sure. This is highly based on Lawrence Keleman's argument. :)

It seemed like a pretty rational argument to me and I wondered if anyone else might find criticism with it. I'm slightly biased, being Jewish myself, so I thought to ask those that might not agree with the stance,

So, *why* don't people appreciate the argument?

I am always up for a discussion, though I expect the usual followers will turn up and turn this into an anti-JW fest.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/24/2013 4:10:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 3:55:25 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:18:16 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

And they still couldn't obey the commandments of God.

I'm not really sure what your point is with that. Care to elaborate?

2 Corinthians 3;
14: But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
15: Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds;
16: but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.
17: Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18: And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

It makes no difference how many Jews witnessed the making of the written law. It's only through God's planned redemption that ALL His people will be saved from their disobedient flesh and the world they perceive as something real.

Our true existence is invisible energy within the mind of our Creator. Processed energy gives us the illusion of a defined world. This means that the space we see in the sky, matter or the passing of time doesn't really exist. It only exists as our created energy is processed by our brains, which is also made of invisible energy.
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/24/2013 4:41:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 4:08:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:46:15 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:28:10 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

Sounds like Lawrence Kelemen ;) (only he presents it better, after all, he's been doing it for 20+ years).
You may be interested in: http://lawrencekelemen.com... , http://www.aish.com... , http://www.simpletoremember.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com....

You may also be interested in a different form of the argument as presented by David Gottlieb PhD (a former Professor of Philosophy at Johns Hopkins University.) http://ohr.edu... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com...

Finally, there is a formulation by Dr. Sam Leben: http://philosophyofjudaism.blogspot.com...
(Dr. Sam Lebens holds a PhD from the University of London in metaphysics and logic. & is a post-doctoral research fellow at the Centre for Philosophy of Religion, at the University of Notre Dame.)

In my experience, most people don't appreciate the argument.

Oh, yeah. For sure. This is highly based on Lawrence Keleman's argument. :)

It seemed like a pretty rational argument to me and I wondered if anyone else might find criticism with it. I'm slightly biased, being Jewish myself, so I thought to ask those that might not agree with the stance,

So, *why* don't people appreciate the argument?

I am always up for a discussion, though I expect the usual followers will turn up and turn this into an anti-JW fest.

To be completely honest, my intent wasn't necessarily to discuss other religions but to hear refutations to my claim. If your refutations include the dynamics of another religion, that's fine, but please limit it to that.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/24/2013 4:46:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 4:07:53 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:13:07 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
I didn't know about this story, do you mean it was revealed to all 3 million people , or that 3 million people witnessed that their Prophet was a prophet of God ?

I mean that 3 million people were spoken to directly by G-d. He revealed the first two commandments, each time the entire nation died and had to be resurrected. By the third commandment, the nation requested that Moses speak, 'lest we die'. (Exodus, 20:15). So, yes, it was revealed to all 3 million people.

??

Exodus 19: - 20:26
20 So Jehovah came down upon Mount Sinai to the top of the mountain. Then Jehovah called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went on up. 21 Jehovah now said to Moses: "Go down, warn the people, that they do not try to break through to Jehovah to take a look and many of them have to fall. 22 And let the priests also who regularly come near to Jehovah sanctify themselves, that Jehovah may not break out upon them." 23 At this Moses said to Jehovah: "The people are not able to come up to Mount Sinai, because you yourself already warned us, saying, "Set bounds for the mountain and make it sacred."" 24 However, Jehovah said to him: "Go, descend, and you must come up, you and Aaron with you; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up to Jehovah, that he may not break out upon them." 25 Accordingly Moses descended to the people and told them.
20:1 And God proceeded to speak all these words, saying:
2 "I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves. 3 You must not have any other gods against my face.
4 "You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. 5 You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me; 6 but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation* in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 "You must not take up the name of Jehovah your God in a worthless way, for Jehovah will not leave the one unpunished who takes up his name in a worthless way.
8 "Remembering the sabbath day to hold it sacred, 9 you are to render service and you must do all your work six days. 10 But the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God. You must not do any work, you nor your son nor your daughter, your slave man nor your slave girl nor your domestic animal nor your alien resident who is inside your gates. 11 For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day. That is why Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and proceeded to make it sacred.
12 "Honor your father and your mother in order that your days may prove long upon the ground that Jehovah your God is giving you.
13 "You must not murder.
14 "You must not commit adultery.
15 "You must not steal.
16 "You must not testify falsely as a witness against your fellowman.
17 "You must not desire your fellowman"s house. You must not desire your fellowman"s wife, nor his slave man nor his slave girl nor his bull nor his as* nor anything that belongs to your fellowman."
18 Now all the people were seeing the thunders and the lightning flashes and the sound of the horn and the mountain smoking. When the people got to see it, then they quivered and stood at a distance. 19 And they began to say to Moses: "You speak with us, and let us listen; but let not God speak with us for fear we may die." 20 So Moses said to the people: "Do not be afraid, because for the sake of putting YOU to the test the [true] God has come, and in order that the fear of him may continue before YOUR faces that YOU may not sin." 21 And the people kept standing at a distance, but Moses went near to the dark cloud mass where the [true] God was.
22 And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, "YOU yourselves have seen that it was from the heavens I spoke with YOU. 23 YOU must not make along with me gods of silver, and YOU must not make gods of gold for yourselves. 24 An altar of ground you are to make for me, and you must sacrifice upon it your burnt offerings and your communion sacrifices, your flock and your herd. In every place where I shall cause my name to be remembered I shall come to you and shall certainly bless you. 25 And if you should make an altar of stones for me, you must not build them as hewn stones. In the event that you do wield your chisel upon it, then you will profane it. 26 And you must not go up by steps to my altar, that your private parts may not be exposed upon it."

I do concede the point abut them hearing the first of the commandments, but that was all they heard.

However the point about them hardly remaining faithful for 5 minutes at a a time, and their being replaced is an accurate one, and one they were warned about many times before Jehovah finally gave up on them when they rejected his son, as he made clear in the illustration of the vineyard which the Pharisees got the meaning of.

Luke 20:
9 Then he started to tell the people this illustration: "A man planted a vineyard and let it out to cultivators, and he traveled abroad for considerable time. 10 But in due season he sent out a slave+ to the cultivators, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. The cultivators, however, sent him away empty, after beating him up. 11 But he repeated and sent them a different slave. That one also they beat up and dishonored and sent away empty. 12 Yet again he sent a third; this one also they wounded and threw out. 13 At this the owner of the vineyard said, "What shall I do? I will send my son the beloved.+ Likely they will respect this one." 14 When the cultivators caught sight of him they went reasoning with one another, saying, "This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours." 15 With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed+ him. What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and destroy these cultivators and will give the vineyard to others."
On hearing [this] they said: "Never may that happen!" 17 But he looked upon them and said: "What, then, does this that is written mean, "The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone"? 18 Everyone falling upon that stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him."
19 The scribes and the chief priests now sought to get their hands on him in that very hour, but they feared the people; for they perceived that he spoke this illustration with them in mind.

Jesus taught exclusively from the Torah and other Hebrew scripture since he was born, brought up, and died a faithful Jew, unlike the majority of his contemporaries.

Tell me, how can you comply with Joel 2:32 if you can't pronounce the holy name?

Joel 2:32
32 And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling."

To be blunt it is every bit as bad as Apostate Christianity removing as many traces to that holy name from scripture as they could.

And before you say it, I appreciate that Jehovah is a more or less accurate English translation of the name but it is the one most people recognise as meaning who it does, and I am sure God accepts our best efforts since unfaithful Jews and Apostate Christians did all they could to take it out of circulation.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/24/2013 4:46:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 4:41:45 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:08:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:46:15 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:28:10 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

Sounds like Lawrence Kelemen ;) (only he presents it better, after all, he's been doing it for 20+ years).
You may be interested in: http://lawrencekelemen.com... , http://www.aish.com... , http://www.simpletoremember.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com....

You may also be interested in a different form of the argument as presented by David Gottlieb PhD (a former Professor of Philosophy at Johns Hopkins University.) http://ohr.edu... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com...

Finally, there is a formulation by Dr. Sam Leben: http://philosophyofjudaism.blogspot.com...
(Dr. Sam Lebens holds a PhD from the University of London in metaphysics and logic. & is a post-doctoral research fellow at the Centre for Philosophy of Religion, at the University of Notre Dame.)

In my experience, most people don't appreciate the argument.

Oh, yeah. For sure. This is highly based on Lawrence Keleman's argument. :)

It seemed like a pretty rational argument to me and I wondered if anyone else might find criticism with it. I'm slightly biased, being Jewish myself, so I thought to ask those that might not agree with the stance,

So, *why* don't people appreciate the argument?

I am always up for a discussion, though I expect the usual followers will turn up and turn this into an anti-JW fest.

To be completely honest, my intent wasn't necessarily to discuss other religions but to hear refutations to my claim. If your refutations include the dynamics of another religion, that's fine, but please limit it to that.

Even though the Israelites got to see one of God's prophets in action and were able to carry this story to the future generations, they were still under the Old Covenant "veil", which is God's strong delusion called the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" that He placed in the flesh and this world. This delusion keeps His people from knowing who they really are within the mind of our Creator as energy, God's stored thoughts. Only us saints were taught who we are in His mind.
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/24/2013 4:48:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 4:10:13 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:55:25 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:18:16 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

And they still couldn't obey the commandments of God.

I'm not really sure what your point is with that. Care to elaborate?

2 Corinthians 3;
14: But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
15: Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds;
16: but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.
17: Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18: And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

It makes no difference how many Jews witnessed the making of the written law. It's only through God's planned redemption that ALL His people will be saved from their disobedient flesh and the world they perceive as something real.

Our true existence is invisible energy within the mind of our Creator. Processed energy gives us the illusion of a defined world. This means that the space we see in the sky, matter or the passing of time doesn't really exist. It only exists as our created energy is processed by our brains, which is also made of invisible energy.

What are you attempting to achieve with your post? Please elaborate. Is that supposed to be a refutation to my argument? I don't really understand how the two are connected.
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/24/2013 4:56:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 4:06:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

In the book of exodus no-one saw Moses get the Law from God, since he was up in the mountains whilst they were betraying him with the Golden Calf in the foothills. They could not have seen anything.

The trouble with the Jews, whether as Israel or later the much reduced version Judah, they couldn't stay faithful for any length of time, which is why, in the end, God replaced them with Spiritual Israel, the early Christian Congregation, which didn't stay faithful any longer than the Jews did either.

With Israel it didn't matter how many miracles God did for them, or how spectacular those miracles were, they soon forgot all about them and were unfaithful again.

There are those of us who have experienced God and Christ through the action of holy spirit, I don't know if you would class that as first hand, and those of us who have grown so close to them we think of them as the greatest friends we have ever had, but few believe us.

Not really surprising, it is very hard to credit it unless you experience it for yourself. Sometimes it is difficult to believe even then, but you still can't deny it once you have experienced it. Who cares if people laugh, let them, it's their loss, I know it's true.

If you look in Deuteronomy 5:4, Exodus 19:9,11 and Exodus 20:19 the Torah explicitly states that G-d spoke to the Jewish people directly, whereas you say that only Moses got the law from G-d.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/24/2013 5:01:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 4:48:18 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:10:13 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:55:25 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:18:16 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

And they still couldn't obey the commandments of God.

I'm not really sure what your point is with that. Care to elaborate?

2 Corinthians 3;
14: But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
15: Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds;
16: but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.
17: Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18: And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

It makes no difference how many Jews witnessed the making of the written law. It's only through God's planned redemption that ALL His people will be saved from their disobedient flesh and the world they perceive as something real.

Our true existence is invisible energy within the mind of our Creator. Processed energy gives us the illusion of a defined world. This means that the space we see in the sky, matter or the passing of time doesn't really exist. It only exists as our created energy is processed by our brains, which is also made of invisible energy.

What are you attempting to achieve with your post? Please elaborate. Is that supposed to be a refutation to my argument? I don't really understand how the two are connected.

Everything is connected to our Creator, whether it comes from His planned delusion or what comes from His invisible Christ. It's obvious you aren't led by the spirit of God to write from Christ.
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/24/2013 5:25:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
generation, , the sea and and the at a distance, but Moses went near to the dark cloud mass where the [true] God was.
22 And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: "This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, "YOU yourselves have seen that it was from the heavens I spoke with YOU. 23 YOU must not make along with me gods of silver, and YOU must not make gods of gold for yourselves. 24 An altar of ground you are to make for me, and you must sacrifice upon it your burnt offerings and your communion sacrifices, your flock and your herd. In every place where I shall cause my name to be remembered I shall come to you and shall certainly bless you. 25 And if you should make an altar of stones for me, you must not build them as hewn stones. In the event that you do wield your chisel upon it, then you will profane it. 26 And you must not go up by steps to my altar, that your private parts may not be exposed upon it."

I do concede the point abut them hearing the first of the commandments, but that was all they heard.

However the point about them hardly remaining faithful for 5 minutes at a a time, and their being replaced is an accurate one, and one they were warned about many times before Jehovah finally gave up on them when they rejected his son, as he made clear in the illustration of the vineyard which the Pharisees got the meaning of.

Luke 20:
9 Then he started to tell the people this illustration: "A man planted a vineyard and let it out to cultivators, and he traveled abroad for considerable time. 10 But in due season he sent out a slave+ to the cultivators, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. The cultivators, however, sent him away empty, after beating him up. 11 But he repeated and sent them a different slave. That one also they beat up and dishonored and sent away empty. 12 Yet again he sent a third; this one also they wounded and threw out. 13 At this the owner of the vineyard said, "What shall I do? I will send my son the beloved.+ Likely they will respect this one." 14 When the cultivators caught sight of him they went reasoning with one another, saying, "This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours." 15 With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed+ him. What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and destroy these cultivators and will give the vineyard to others."
On hearing [this] they said: "Never may that happen!" 17 But he looked upon them and said: "What, then, does this that is written mean, "The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone"? 18 Everyone falling upon that stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him."
19 The scribes and the chief priests now sought to get their hands on him in that very hour, but they feared the people; for they perceived that he spoke this illustration with them in mind.

Jesus taught exclusively from the Torah and other Hebrew scripture since he was born, brought up, and died a faithful Jew, unlike the majority of his contemporaries.

Tell me, how can you comply with Joel 2:32 if you can't pronounce the holy name?

Joel 2:32
32 And it must occur that everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will get away safe; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will prove to be the escaped ones, just as Jehovah has said, and in among the survivors, whom Jehovah is calling."

To be blunt it is every bit as bad as Apostate Christianity removing as many traces to that holy name from scripture as they could.

And before you say it, I appreciate that Jehovah is a more or less accurate English translation of the name but it is the one most people recognise as meaning who it does, and I am sure God accepts our best efforts since unfaithful Jews and Apostate Christians d

Sincerest apologies, but my goal here was to prove G-d's existence through the Torah's revelation narrative and not to discuss the validity of Judaism vs. Christianity (or any other form of religion) because I am not equipped to do so. My knowledge of Christianity (and JW) is very limited and to get into a proper discussion about it, it would require a much larger understanding of those religions than I currently have. Reading your posts, that is certainly clear to me as you bring proofs not just from the Torah, but also the New Testament, which, as a Jew, I do not hold by. I appreciate you taking the time to look over this forum though and thank you for your comments.
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/24/2013 5:30:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 4:46:54 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:41:45 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:08:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:46:15 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:28:10 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

Sounds like Lawrence Kelemen ;) (only he presents it better, after all, he's been doing it for 20+ years).
You may be interested in: http://lawrencekelemen.com... , http://www.aish.com... , http://www.simpletoremember.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com....

You may also be interested in a different form of the argument as presented by David Gottlieb PhD (a former Professor of Philosophy at Johns Hopkins University.) http://ohr.edu... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com...

Finally, there is a formulation by Dr. Sam Leben: http://philosophyofjudaism.blogspot.com...
(Dr. Sam Lebens holds a PhD from the University of London in metaphysics and logic. & is a post-doctoral research fellow at the Centre for Philosophy of Religion, at the University of Notre Dame.)

In my experience, most people don't appreciate the argument.

Oh, yeah. For sure. This is highly based on Lawrence Keleman's argument. :)

It seemed like a pretty rational argument to me and I wondered if anyone else might find criticism with it. I'm slightly biased, being Jewish myself, so I thought to ask those that might not agree with the stance,

So, *why* don't people appreciate the argument?

I am always up for a discussion, though I expect the usual followers will turn up and turn this into an anti-JW fest.

To be completely honest, my intent wasn't necessarily to discuss other religions but to hear refutations to my claim. If your refutations include the dynamics of another religion, that's fine, but please limit it to that.

Even though the Israelites got to see one of God's prophets in action and were able to carry this story to the future generations, they were still under the Old Covenant "veil", which is God's strong delusion called the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" that He placed in the flesh and this world. This delusion keeps His people from knowing who they really are within the mind of our Creator as energy, God's stored thoughts. Only us saints were taught who we are in His mind.

Hmmm... As stated above, my point is not necessarily to compare religion but to bring proof for the existence of G-d, something we both seem to agree on. I am curious to know - if it is G-d that is deluding us from knowing who we really are, then why is that our fault?
What makes saints different that they get to know?
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/24/2013 5:33:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 5:01:21 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:48:18 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:10:13 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:55:25 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:18:16 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

And they still couldn't obey the commandments of God.

I'm not really sure what your point is with that. Care to elaborate?

2 Corinthians 3;
14: But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
15: Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds;
16: but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.
17: Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18: And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

It makes no difference how many Jews witnessed the making of the written law. It's only through God's planned redemption that ALL His people will be saved from their disobedient flesh and the world they perceive as something real.

Our true existence is invisible energy within the mind of our Creator. Processed energy gives us the illusion of a defined world. This means that the space we see in the sky, matter or the passing of time doesn't really exist. It only exists as our created energy is processed by our brains, which is also made of invisible energy.

What are you attempting to achieve with your post? Please elaborate. Is that supposed to be a refutation to my argument? I don't really understand how the two are connected.

Everything is connected to our Creator, whether it comes from His planned delusion or what comes from His invisible Christ. It's obvious you aren't led by the spirit of God to write from Christ.

Clearly I am not. Thank you for your comments though.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/25/2013 4:31:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 4:56:20 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:06:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

In the book of exodus no-one saw Moses get the Law from God, since he was up in the mountains whilst they were betraying him with the Golden Calf in the foothills. They could not have seen anything.

The trouble with the Jews, whether as Israel or later the much reduced version Judah, they couldn't stay faithful for any length of time, which is why, in the end, God replaced them with Spiritual Israel, the early Christian Congregation, which didn't stay faithful any longer than the Jews did either.

With Israel it didn't matter how many miracles God did for them, or how spectacular those miracles were, they soon forgot all about them and were unfaithful again.

There are those of us who have experienced God and Christ through the action of holy spirit, I don't know if you would class that as first hand, and those of us who have grown so close to them we think of them as the greatest friends we have ever had, but few believe us.

Not really surprising, it is very hard to credit it unless you experience it for yourself. Sometimes it is difficult to believe even then, but you still can't deny it once you have experienced it. Who cares if people laugh, let them, it's their loss, I know it's true.

If you look in Deuteronomy 5:4, Exodus 19:9,11 and Exodus 20:19 the Torah explicitly states that G-d spoke to the Jewish people directly, whereas you say that only Moses got the law from G-d.

I think at this point you guys need to post the scripture, so we can see it, also, as far as I know, God only speaks to prophets, He speaks to people through prophets, so maybe you misunderstood the verse ? even Quran is full of (Oh children of Israel) it doesn't mean He spoke to them directly, but through messenger.
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/25/2013 4:48:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 4:31:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:56:20 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:06:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

In the book of exodus no-one saw Moses get the Law from God, since he was up in the mountains whilst they were betraying him with the Golden Calf in the foothills. They could not have seen anything.

The trouble with the Jews, whether as Israel or later the much reduced version Judah, they couldn't stay faithful for any length of time, which is why, in the end, God replaced them with Spiritual Israel, the early Christian Congregation, which didn't stay faithful any longer than the Jews did either.

With Israel it didn't matter how many miracles God did for them, or how spectacular those miracles were, they soon forgot all about them and were unfaithful again.

There are those of us who have experienced God and Christ through the action of holy spirit, I don't know if you would class that as first hand, and those of us who have grown so close to them we think of them as the greatest friends we have ever had, but few believe us.

Not really surprising, it is very hard to credit it unless you experience it for yourself. Sometimes it is difficult to believe even then, but you still can't deny it once you have experienced it. Who cares if people laugh, let them, it's their loss, I know it's true.

If you look in Deuteronomy 5:4, Exodus 19:9,11 and Exodus 20:19 the Torah explicitly states that G-d spoke to the Jewish people directly, whereas you say that only Moses got the law from G-d.

I think at this point you guys need to post the scripture, so we can see it, also, as far as I know, God only speaks to prophets, He speaks to people through prophets, so maybe you misunderstood the verse ? even Quran is full of (Oh children of Israel) it doesn't mean He spoke to them directly, but through messenger.

Deuteronomy 5:4,: The LORD spoke with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire--
Exodus 19:9, and the LORD said unto Moses: Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, *that the people may hear when I speak with thee,* and may also believe thee forever.
Exodus 19:11, and be ready against the third day, for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

During the revelation at Mount Sinai, all the children of Israel were elevated to the level of prophets. This is not simply my understanding of the verses, but has been the understanding of these verses for generations within the Jewish people, and can be traced back to the revelation itself.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/25/2013 4:58:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 4:48:37 AM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/25/2013 4:31:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:56:20 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:06:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

In the book of exodus no-one saw Moses get the Law from God, since he was up in the mountains whilst they were betraying him with the Golden Calf in the foothills. They could not have seen anything.

The trouble with the Jews, whether as Israel or later the much reduced version Judah, they couldn't stay faithful for any length of time, which is why, in the end, God replaced them with Spiritual Israel, the early Christian Congregation, which didn't stay faithful any longer than the Jews did either.

With Israel it didn't matter how many miracles God did for them, or how spectacular those miracles were, they soon forgot all about them and were unfaithful again.

There are those of us who have experienced God and Christ through the action of holy spirit, I don't know if you would class that as first hand, and those of us who have grown so close to them we think of them as the greatest friends we have ever had, but few believe us.

Not really surprising, it is very hard to credit it unless you experience it for yourself. Sometimes it is difficult to believe even then, but you still can't deny it once you have experienced it. Who cares if people laugh, let them, it's their loss, I know it's true.

If you look in Deuteronomy 5:4, Exodus 19:9,11 and Exodus 20:19 the Torah explicitly states that G-d spoke to the Jewish people directly, whereas you say that only Moses got the law from G-d.

I think at this point you guys need to post the scripture, so we can see it, also, as far as I know, God only speaks to prophets, He speaks to people through prophets, so maybe you misunderstood the verse ? even Quran is full of (Oh children of Israel) it doesn't mean He spoke to them directly, but through messenger.

Deuteronomy 5:4,: The LORD spoke with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire--
Exodus 19:9, and the LORD said unto Moses: Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, *that the people may hear when I speak with thee,* and may also believe thee forever.
Exodus 19:11, and be ready against the third day, for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

During the revelation at Mount Sinai, all the children of Israel were elevated to the level of prophets. This is not simply my understanding of the verses, but has been the understanding of these verses for generations within the Jewish people, and can be traced back to the revelation itself.

Ok In this case , and to come back to your topic, a so great number of people from the children of Israel witnessed a great and obvious , and passed it on for generation to generation, of course that would be a good argument, but sceptics won't accept it , they want to see something too!!!

they would say this could be a legend, and they want to see other books (besides the scripture) to tell the same event. in other words, you'll never get everybody taking this for The Proof..
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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10/25/2013 5:06:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 4:31:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:56:20 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:06:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

In the book of exodus no-one saw Moses get the Law from God, since he was up in the mountains whilst they were betraying him with the Golden Calf in the foothills. They could not have seen anything.

The trouble with the Jews, whether as Israel or later the much reduced version Judah, they couldn't stay faithful for any length of time, which is why, in the end, God replaced them with Spiritual Israel, the early Christian Congregation, which didn't stay faithful any longer than the Jews did either.

With Israel it didn't matter how many miracles God did for them, or how spectacular those miracles were, they soon forgot all about them and were unfaithful again.

There are those of us who have experienced God and Christ through the action of holy spirit, I don't know if you would class that as first hand, and those of us who have grown so close to them we think of them as the greatest friends we have ever had, but few believe us.

Not really surprising, it is very hard to credit it unless you experience it for yourself. Sometimes it is difficult to believe even then, but you still can't deny it once you have experienced it. Who cares if people laugh, let them, it's their loss, I know it's true.

If you look in Deuteronomy 5:4, Exodus 19:9,11 and Exodus 20:19 the Torah explicitly states that G-d spoke to the Jewish people directly, whereas you say that only Moses got the law from G-d.

I think at this point you guys need to post the scripture, so we can see it, also, as far as I know, God only speaks to prophets, He speaks to people through prophets, so maybe you misunderstood the verse ? even Quran is full of (Oh children of Israel) it doesn't mean He spoke to them directly, but through messenger.

The fact is that, because of Adam's fall from perfection, God himself has not been able to deal directly with mankind since, and any contact was delegated to his son.

However being a faithful son, all credit for the messages was always given to the original source of them, God himself.

The major proof of that is the statement in Revelation 20, that, mankind having been returned to the perfection that Adam lost, Christ hands back the kingdom to his father, because his "day of rest" from dealing with mankind directly is finally at an end and God can start to deal, once again, directly with humanity. The last 3 chapters of Revelation paint a word picture of what things will be like than.

It is almost ironic that the last three chapters of Revelation tell us of the return to the same state as the first three chapters of Genesis describe. The rest of scripture is a description of the detour creation was forced down by Satan's challenge, and God sense of Justice forcing him to allow Satan the opportunity to prove it, before God destroys him.

Even God doesn't destroy anyone without a trial, and evidence being presented.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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10/25/2013 5:15:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 5:06:33 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/25/2013 4:31:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:56:20 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:06:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

In the book of exodus no-one saw Moses get the Law from God, since he was up in the mountains whilst they were betraying him with the Golden Calf in the foothills. They could not have seen anything.

The trouble with the Jews, whether as Israel or later the much reduced version Judah, they couldn't stay faithful for any length of time, which is why, in the end, God replaced them with Spiritual Israel, the early Christian Congregation, which didn't stay faithful any longer than the Jews did either.

With Israel it didn't matter how many miracles God did for them, or how spectacular those miracles were, they soon forgot all about them and were unfaithful again.

There are those of us who have experienced God and Christ through the action of holy spirit, I don't know if you would class that as first hand, and those of us who have grown so close to them we think of them as the greatest friends we have ever had, but few believe us.

Not really surprising, it is very hard to credit it unless you experience it for yourself. Sometimes it is difficult to believe even then, but you still can't deny it once you have experienced it. Who cares if people laugh, let them, it's their loss, I know it's true.

If you look in Deuteronomy 5:4, Exodus 19:9,11 and Exodus 20:19 the Torah explicitly states that G-d spoke to the Jewish people directly, whereas you say that only Moses got the law from G-d.

I think at this point you guys need to post the scripture, so we can see it, also, as far as I know, God only speaks to prophets, He speaks to people through prophets, so maybe you misunderstood the verse ? even Quran is full of (Oh children of Israel) it doesn't mean He spoke to them directly, but through messenger.

The fact is that, because of Adam's fall from perfection, God himself has not been able to deal directly with mankind since, and any contact was delegated to his son.

How could God be unable of anything ?!!! this is a blasphemy, and it is the contrary of what one learns in the Old testament, and you can't support your statement from the new testament, you have to show it from the OT, otherwise what you say is an innovation in the religion of God. Because something is sure, Jesus-peace be upon him- used to preach the OT.

However being a faithful son, all credit for the messages was always given to the original source of them, God himself.

The major proof of that is the statement in Revelation 20, that, mankind having been returned to the perfection that Adam lost, Christ hands back the kingdom to his father, because his "day of rest" from dealing with mankind directly is finally at an end and God can start to deal, once again, directly with humanity. The last 3 chapters of Revelation paint a word picture of what things will be like than.

It is almost ironic that the last three chapters of Revelation tell us of the return to the same state as the first three chapters of Genesis describe. The rest of scripture is a description of the detour creation was forced down by Satan's challenge, and God sense of Justice forcing him to allow Satan the opportunity to prove it, before God destroys him.

Even God doesn't destroy anyone without a trial, and evidence being presented.
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/25/2013 7:36:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 5:06:33 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/25/2013 4:31:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:56:20 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:06:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

In the book of exodus no-one saw Moses get the Law from God, since he was up in the mountains whilst they were betraying him with the Golden Calf in the foothills. They could not have seen anything.

The trouble with the Jews, whether as Israel or later the much reduced version Judah, they couldn't stay faithful for any length of time, which is why, in the end, God replaced them with Spiritual Israel, the early Christian Congregation, which didn't stay faithful any longer than the Jews did either.

With Israel it didn't matter how many miracles God did for them, or how spectacular those miracles were, they soon forgot all about them and were unfaithful again.

There are those of us who have experienced God and Christ through the action of holy spirit, I don't know if you would class that as first hand, and those of us who have grown so close to them we think of them as the greatest friends we have ever had, but few believe us.

Not really surprising, it is very hard to credit it unless you experience it for yourself. Sometimes it is difficult to believe even then, but you still can't deny it once you have experienced it. Who cares if people laugh, let them, it's their loss, I know it's true.

If you look in Deuteronomy 5:4, Exodus 19:9,11 and Exodus 20:19 the Torah explicitly states that G-d spoke to the Jewish people directly, whereas you say that only Moses got the law from G-d.

I think at this point you guys need to post the scripture, so we can see it, also, as far as I know, God only speaks to prophets, He speaks to people through prophets, so maybe you misunderstood the verse ? even Quran is full of (Oh children of Israel) it doesn't mean He spoke to them directly, but through messenger.

The fact is that, because of Adam's fall from perfection, God himself has not been able to deal directly with mankind since, and any contact was delegated to his son.

However being a faithful son, all credit for the messages was always given to the original source of them, God himself.

The major proof of that is the statement in Revelation 20, that, mankind having been returned to the perfection that Adam lost, Christ hands back the kingdom to his father, because his "day of rest" from dealing with mankind directly is finally at an end and God can start to deal, once again, directly with humanity. The last 3 chapters of Revelation paint a word picture of what things will be like than.

It is almost ironic that the last three chapters of Revelation tell us of the return to the same state as the first three chapters of Genesis describe. The rest of scripture is a description of the detour creation was forced down by Satan's challenge, and God sense of Justice forcing him to allow Satan the opportunity to prove it, before God destroys him.

Even God doesn't destroy anyone without a trial, and evidence being presented.

Once again, you bring proof from the New Testament.
Here's a question for you. If G-d revealed Himself to 3 million Jewish people, and then changed His mind, choosing another group of people, then why did He not reveal Himself to that multitude of people as well?
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/25/2013 7:58:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 4:58:52 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/25/2013 4:48:37 AM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/25/2013 4:31:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:56:20 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:06:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

In the book of exodus no-one saw Moses get the Law from God, since he was up in the mountains whilst they were betraying him with the Golden Calf in the foothills. They could not have seen anything.

The trouble with the Jews, whether as Israel or later the much reduced version Judah, they couldn't stay faithful for any length of time, which is why, in the end, God replaced them with Spiritual Israel, the early Christian Congregation, which didn't stay faithful any longer than the Jews did either.

With Israel it didn't matter how many miracles God did for them, or how spectacular those miracles were, they soon forgot all about them and were unfaithful again.

There are those of us who have experienced God and Christ through the action of holy spirit, I don't know if you would class that as first hand, and those of us who have grown so close to them we think of them as the greatest friends we have ever had, but few believe us.

Not really surprising, it is very hard to credit it unless you experience it for yourself. Sometimes it is difficult to believe even then, but you still can't deny it once you have experienced it. Who cares if people laugh, let them, it's their loss, I know it's true.

If you look in Deuteronomy 5:4, Exodus 19:9,11 and Exodus 20:19 the Torah explicitly states that G-d spoke to the Jewish people directly, whereas you say that only Moses got the law from G-d.

I think at this point you guys need to post the scripture, so we can see it, also, as far as I know, God only speaks to prophets, He speaks to people through prophets, so maybe you misunderstood the verse ? even Quran is full of (Oh children of Israel) it doesn't mean He spoke to them directly, but through messenger.

Deuteronomy 5:4,: The LORD spoke with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire--
Exodus 19:9, and the LORD said unto Moses: Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, *that the people may hear when I speak with thee,* and may also believe thee forever.
Exodus 19:11, and be ready against the third day, for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.

During the revelation at Mount Sinai, all the children of Israel were elevated to the level of prophets. This is not simply my understanding of the verses, but has been the understanding of these verses for generations within the Jewish people, and can be traced back to the revelation itself.

Ok In this case , and to come back to your topic, a so great number of people from the children of Israel witnessed a great and obvious , and passed it on for generation to generation, of course that would be a good argument, but sceptics won't accept it , they want to see something too!!!

they would say this could be a legend, and they want to see other books (besides the scripture) to tell the same event. in other words, you'll never get everybody taking this for The Proof..

I believe the proof would be in the transmission of the story itself. For example, if during the Super Bowl, a circuit shorted and all the TVs, radios and technological appliances stopped working, but the Giants won - how would we know that? By the testimony of the 50,000+ people watching it first hand. And could we say that they were lying? Not really. Even the testimony of 50,000 people is enough to assume that they were telling the truth. I could make up a scenario, that they were all bribed to say the Giants won although they didn't, for example. But the chances of that happening are minuscule and if that was not the case, surely there would be some participants who would insist that the Giants lost. In the case of the Jewish people, there has never been any tradition of some people claiming that they were at the revelation and it was all just tricks. Also, for three million people to pass something down to their children that they knew to be false brings up even more problems. The Torah explicitly states that we saw G-d face to face. If that were not true, the people of that generation, (had it just been Moses fooling them) would have looked at the Torah and never accepted it.

Back to the Super Bowl example, it would go down in record that the Giants won and people would believe it generations later. They would have no reason not to. If the revelation genuinely happened as said, and we can trace down to this generation hundreds of thousands of people that have believed it, then it seems that it would be true.
MoralityProfessor
Posts: 63
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10/25/2013 7:59:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/25/2013 7:36:03 AM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/25/2013 5:06:33 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/25/2013 4:31:14 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:56:20 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:06:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

In the book of exodus no-one saw Moses get the Law from God, since he was up in the mountains whilst they were betraying him with the Golden Calf in the foothills. They could not have seen anything.

The trouble with the Jews, whether as Israel or later the much reduced version Judah, they couldn't stay faithful for any length of time, which is why, in the end, God replaced them with Spiritual Israel, the early Christian Congregation, which didn't stay faithful any longer than the Jews did either.

With Israel it didn't matter how many miracles God did for them, or how spectacular those miracles were, they soon forgot all about them and were unfaithful again.

There are those of us who have experienced God and Christ through the action of holy spirit, I don't know if you would class that as first hand, and those of us who have grown so close to them we think of them as the greatest friends we have ever had, but few believe us.

Not really surprising, it is very hard to credit it unless you experience it for yourself. Sometimes it is difficult to believe even then, but you still can't deny it once you have experienced it. Who cares if people laugh, let them, it's their loss, I know it's true.

If you look in Deuteronomy 5:4, Exodus 19:9,11 and Exodus 20:19 the Torah explicitly states that G-d spoke to the Jewish people directly, whereas you say that only Moses got the law from G-d.

I think at this point you guys need to post the scripture, so we can see it, also, as far as I know, God only speaks to prophets, He speaks to people through prophets, so maybe you misunderstood the verse ? even Quran is full of (Oh children of Israel) it doesn't mean He spoke to them directly, but through messenger.

The fact is that, because of Adam's fall from perfection, God himself has not been able to deal directly with mankind since, and any contact was delegated to his son.

However being a faithful son, all credit for the messages was always given to the original source of them, God himself.

The major proof of that is the statement in Revelation 20, that, mankind having been returned to the perfection that Adam lost, Christ hands back the kingdom to his father, because his "day of rest" from dealing with mankind directly is finally at an end and God can start to deal, once again, directly with humanity. The last 3 chapters of Revelation paint a word picture of what things will be like than.

It is almost ironic that the last three chapters of Revelation tell us of the return to the same state as the first three chapters of Genesis describe. The rest of scripture is a description of the detour creation was forced down by Satan's challenge, and God sense of Justice forcing him to allow Satan the opportunity to prove it, before God destroys him.

Even God doesn't destroy anyone without a trial, and evidence being presented.

Once again, you bring proof from the New Testament.
Here's a question for you. If G-d revealed Himself to 3 million Jewish people, and then changed His mind, choosing another group of people, then why did He not reveal Himself to that multitude of people as well?

And specifically in a public setting, like with the Jewish people as opposed to revealing. Himself to people in their thoughts.
Floid
Posts: 751
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10/25/2013 8:03:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

And how many independent accounts from those three million people do we have? One as far as I can tell... whoever wrote Exodus. So I could write a book and claim a billion people saw God. But all you have is my claim that happened which is very little evidence. If you had a couple of hundreds other people independently claiming the same thing then there starts to be a reason to take that claim seriously.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people.

No they don't.

For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence.

That would be historians, not scientist. But take George Washington for example, we have hundreds (if not thousands) of independent historical claims testifying to his existence. So it is reasonable to believe he existed. But for your Exodus example we have a single source making that claim... that is a very different set of circumstances.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

Can you produce the testimony of the three million people who claimed to see God?

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event?

With only a single source we don't have enough information to even establish if the event happened or not.

If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again?

Sure, history is filled with unsubstantiated religious claims. For example the Mormons religious text states Jesus appeared to multitudes in North America. But like your example, there really aren't a bunch of independent sources verifying this, just one religious text making that claim.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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10/25/2013 10:14:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 5:30:39 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:46:54 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:41:45 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:08:47 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:46:15 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:28:10 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

Sounds like Lawrence Kelemen ;) (only he presents it better, after all, he's been doing it for 20+ years).
You may be interested in: http://lawrencekelemen.com... , http://www.aish.com... , http://www.simpletoremember.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com... , http://www.torahcafe.com....

You may also be interested in a different form of the argument as presented by David Gottlieb PhD (a former Professor of Philosophy at Johns Hopkins University.) http://ohr.edu... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com... , http://www.dovidgottlieb.com...

Finally, there is a formulation by Dr. Sam Leben: http://philosophyofjudaism.blogspot.com...
(Dr. Sam Lebens holds a PhD from the University of London in metaphysics and logic. & is a post-doctoral research fellow at the Centre for Philosophy of Religion, at the University of Notre Dame.)

In my experience, most people don't appreciate the argument.

Oh, yeah. For sure. This is highly based on Lawrence Keleman's argument. :)

It seemed like a pretty rational argument to me and I wondered if anyone else might find criticism with it. I'm slightly biased, being Jewish myself, so I thought to ask those that might not agree with the stance,

So, *why* don't people appreciate the argument?

I am always up for a discussion, though I expect the usual followers will turn up and turn this into an anti-JW fest.

To be completely honest, my intent wasn't necessarily to discuss other religions but to hear refutations to my claim. If your refutations include the dynamics of another religion, that's fine, but please limit it to that.

Even though the Israelites got to see one of God's prophets in action and were able to carry this story to the future generations, they were still under the Old Covenant "veil", which is God's strong delusion called the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" that He placed in the flesh and this world. This delusion keeps His people from knowing who they really are within the mind of our Creator as energy, God's stored thoughts. Only us saints were taught who we are in His mind.

Hmmm... As stated above, my point is not necessarily to compare religion but to bring proof for the existence of G-d, something we both seem to agree on. I am curious to know - if it is G-d that is deluding us from knowing who we really are, then why is that our fault?
What makes saints different that they get to know?

It was God's plan to cause thoughts of deception within His creation to form a contrast to connect with His servant ( Christ ) while using the flesh of prophets and saints. All us saints and prophets were born into this world delusion with thoughts of deception until God comes into our mind with thoughts that are much different than the thoughts of this world. The thoughts directly from God is called the Truth.

Also, out of His delusion ( the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ) came the beast, which is God's plan to teach His people how to build things until we had the latest technology today to understand that we're created as invisible wavelengths of energy. He uses the flesh called saints as His eyes, ears, voice, etc. to witness the things of this world and read the prophecies to help us understand who we are within His mind.

The original writings of the saints and prophets were written in our own languages as God puts words in our mind to write or speak with. These words are all arranged according to God's plan to teach us who we are and what's going on in the past, present and future.

The beast is also where religions and religious stories came from. Certain leaders were chosen to look into the stars and connect them to form building shapes such as triangles, rectangles, squares, etc. and then God taught them how to build bricks and blocks out of the minerals of the earth to build buildings with. These people called gentiles didn't know who our Creator was like the prophets knew Him. So the thoughts that God put in their minds to build their false gods with were thought to come from these leaders so the leaders became the chief architects that their followers would exalt. This is how God separated His people into nations and all the cities were built with their false gods ( buildings ). Each leader was given a religious story within their mind from God that gave them different languages. This is how God was able to form all the different languages in this world. They all came from different religious ideas.

God didn't need any saints in this world while He was using Christianity to build up the cities of this world and where all the schools were to teach men how to build the technology we have today, such as the telescopes, microscopes, computers and internet that helped reveal our true created existence as energy.

Once this technology was in place, then He put my flesh into this world to be used by Him as His last saint to gather in information of this world and direct hidden knowledge within my mind, which is the mind of our Creator, and teach me the latest details of how we were created. All the earlier saints understood that we came from an invisible world but they didn't have the worldly knowledge that science has today to help them understand the details of who we are. Now we know because God's servant ( Christ ) is our created existence where ALL God's people came from. We saints and prophets are called the Elect because we are created as Christ and everything else that God created belongs in us as energy. So God's people are also in Christ.
bornofgod
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10/25/2013 10:16:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/24/2013 5:33:18 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 5:01:21 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:48:18 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 4:10:13 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:55:25 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
At 10/24/2013 3:18:16 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 10/24/2013 12:41:23 PM, MoralityProfessor wrote:
The Jewish revelation narrative holds evidence for the existence of G-d. The Jewish nation makes a claim that no other religion makes - three million people saw and received the Torah directly from G-d, as accounted in the book of Exodus. The reason no other religion makes that claim is because it is nearly impossible to convince so many people that an event occurred when in reality it did not.

In fact, scientists base historical accuracy on claims substantiated by similar amounts of people. For example, the only way we know that George Washington lived (seeing as no one I know seems to have met him first-hand) is because millions of people have testified to his existence. And that knowledge has been passed down from generation to generation.

I could compare this to a scenario where three million people tell you that the cupcake you are about to eat is poisoned by a substance unknown to you. No intelligent person would ever disregard the testimony and eat the cupcake

You could respond with any number of circumstances to explain how this came about without G-d (for example, a national drug trip), but I will ask you a simple question. Was this a natural event? If it is, then why has a similar event never occurred again? Natural events repeat themselves, but never has another sizable group of people claimed to experience G-d firsthand.

And they still couldn't obey the commandments of God.

I'm not really sure what your point is with that. Care to elaborate?

2 Corinthians 3;
14: But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
15: Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds;
16: but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.
17: Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
18: And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

It makes no difference how many Jews witnessed the making of the written law. It's only through God's planned redemption that ALL His people will be saved from their disobedient flesh and the world they perceive as something real.

Our true existence is invisible energy within the mind of our Creator. Processed energy gives us the illusion of a defined world. This means that the space we see in the sky, matter or the passing of time doesn't really exist. It only exists as our created energy is processed by our brains, which is also made of invisible energy.

What are you attempting to achieve with your post? Please elaborate. Is that supposed to be a refutation to my argument? I don't really understand how the two are connected.

Everything is connected to our Creator, whether it comes from His planned delusion or what comes from His invisible Christ. It's obvious you aren't led by the spirit of God to write from Christ.

Clearly I am not. Thank you for your comments though.

God has given you some wisdom my friend to know that you're not a saint, unlike many Christians who think they know Him.