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The Qur'anic concept of Hell is Unjust

muslimnomore
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11/2/2013 9:23:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This debate is with regards to the Islamic version of hell. Jahannam is a place of unthinkable torment, which will be occupied forever by those who:
1. simply do not believe that Allah exists or is worthy of worship
2. believe that Allah has equals/partners
3. believe that there are gods other than Allah.

I will try to demonstrate that this idea that God will punish people simply for not believing in him is not just. My arguments are well-outlined in these videos (which are not my work):

I will leave it up to my opponent to explain why eternal torment in hell for simply not believing in god is just.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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11/2/2013 11:26:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You may want to take into consideration that Allah takes into account whether or not someone has been previously exposed to the quran's message.

If a certain people have never heard the warning about judgement day, they will not receive the treatment given to those who know the quran but reject it.

Personally, I think it's more fair than Christianity. They have no exception for people who never heard of Christ.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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11/2/2013 11:29:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
For all it's benefits, though, Quran wins the award for "easiest to take out of context to promote violence."

If you ignore the context surrounding individual chapters and when they were revealed, it can look like a general war against non-believers.

It'd be like if Jew said that the pre-Christ conquest of Israel gives us moral authority to kill anyone not Jewish in Israel.
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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11/2/2013 11:42:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 11:26:32 PM, Wnope wrote:
You may want to take into consideration that Allah takes into account whether or not someone has been previously exposed to the quran's message.


I did. This actually makes it more unfair. If you don't hear the Quran's message ever in your life then you can get to heaven without having to pray five times a day, fast or pay zakaat. How is this fair for a muslim who has to do all these things and more in order to avid spending at least some time in hell before getting into heaven?
Furthermore, it is ridiculous that if you merely hear the message of the quran once, you become eligible for hell unless you immediately accept the message. i know not all muslims believe that it is that simple, but many do.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/3/2013 12:15:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 11:26:32 PM, Wnope wrote:
Personally, I think it's more fair than Christianity. They have no exception for people who never heard of Christ.

Lolwut.
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muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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11/3/2013 12:42:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Actually I have heard some christians say that people who never heard abut jesus will not be thrown into hell. i have heard joel osteen and his dad say that even non-christians can go to heaven, although they've back-tracked on that as well.
some christians believe that hell is actually just a separation from god and that all the talk abut fires in hell is just a bunch of figures of speech. william lane craig is one of them.
Eitan_Zohar
Posts: 2,697
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11/3/2013 6:52:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/2/2013 11:26:32 PM, Wnope wrote:
You may want to take into consideration that Allah takes into account whether or not someone has been previously exposed to the quran's message.

If a certain people have never heard the warning about judgement day, they will not receive the treatment given to those who know the quran but reject it.

Personally, I think it's more fair than Christianity. They have no exception for people who never heard of Christ.

Ya they do.
"It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book."
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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11/3/2013 8:05:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hell in general is an infinite amount of torture of a finite amount of sin. All hell is unjust in that regard.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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11/3/2013 1:08:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 7:37:15 AM, Mirza wrote:
The Islamic concept of Hell is likely to be a temporary kind.

interesting statement. any proof for this?
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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11/3/2013 6:32:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 6:52:31 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/2/2013 11:26:32 PM, Wnope wrote:
You may want to take into consideration that Allah takes into account whether or not someone has been previously exposed to the quran's message.

If a certain people have never heard the warning about judgement day, they will not receive the treatment given to those who know the quran but reject it.

Personally, I think it's more fair than Christianity. They have no exception for people who never heard of Christ.

Ya they do.

Where?

If this were the case, doesn't that mean that missionaries to heathen countries horrible people? If they convert 50% of the people they talk to, they've damned the other 50% to a hell they wouldn't otherwise experience.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/3/2013 6:50:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 6:32:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:52:31 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/2/2013 11:26:32 PM, Wnope wrote:
You may want to take into consideration that Allah takes into account whether or not someone has been previously exposed to the quran's message.

If a certain people have never heard the warning about judgement day, they will not receive the treatment given to those who know the quran but reject it.

Personally, I think it's more fair than Christianity. They have no exception for people who never heard of Christ.

Ya they do.

Where?

If this were the case, doesn't that mean that missionaries to heathen countries horrible people? If they convert 50% of the people they talk to, they've damned the other 50% to a hell they wouldn't otherwise experience.

You're aware that the vast majority of Christians are inclusivists, right?

http://www.theopedia.com...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/3/2013 6:54:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 1:08:00 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
At 11/3/2013 7:37:15 AM, Mirza wrote:
The Islamic concept of Hell is likely to be a temporary kind.

interesting statement. any proof for this?
The Qur'an never describes Hell as endless. It says that its inhabitants will remain there forever. This term only says how long they'll be during the course of its time, not how much Hell itself will be kept existing.

In contrast to Hell, Paradise is described as a reward without an end. People will remain there and the place will be endless too.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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11/3/2013 6:57:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
My understanding of what the Bible actually says is that not hearing of Christ is not an excuse because we are born with the knowledge of him. I don't remember where I heard that though :/
yang.
Mirza
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11/3/2013 6:58:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 6:57:11 PM, tulle wrote:
My understanding of what the Bible actually says is that not hearing of Christ is not an excuse because we are born with the knowledge of him.

I don't remember where I heard that though :/
In the audio version?
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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11/3/2013 7:04:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 6:58:28 PM, Mirza wrote:

In the audio version?

lol Nigerians like to quote and talk about the Bible a lot, so pretty much.

@PCP the criticism in the link you posted seems fair, and I don't see why inclusivists aren't wrong in their belief.

"That infants who die are saved, without respect to faith or lineage (something that almost all proponents of exclusivism hold), shows that special revelation is not absolutely necessary for salvation."

Where's the evidence for that?

"It would be unjust of God to damn those without knowledge of the gospel."

It would be. But I would consider many of the things the God of the Bible has done as unjust---that doesn't make it any less "true".
yang.
tulle
Posts: 4,445
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11/3/2013 7:15:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent." (Romans 10:13-15) It is important to notice Paul's breakdown in his series of questions: "calling on", "believing in", "hearing about", "preaching to", and "being sent." "The clear implications of these questions is that if missionaries are not sent to preach the gospel of Christ to those who have not heard about him in order that they may hear about him, believe in him, and call upon his name for salvation, these unevangelized people, who are condemned already, will remain unsaved and cannot and will not be saved by any other means."

(from http://www.theopedia.com...)

I mean, the passage pretty explicitly says that preaching is of utmost importance in order to save people.

So the fact that there are people out there who believe in inclusivism doesn't take away from Wnope's point that the Bible is unforgiving.

The same way that Christians supporting gay marriage doesn't take away from the fact that the Bible expressly forbids gay sex.

It just means people are putting their blinders on...
yang.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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11/3/2013 7:25:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 6:50:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:32:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:52:31 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/2/2013 11:26:32 PM, Wnope wrote:
You may want to take into consideration that Allah takes into account whether or not someone has been previously exposed to the quran's message.

If a certain people have never heard the warning about judgement day, they will not receive the treatment given to those who know the quran but reject it.

Personally, I think it's more fair than Christianity. They have no exception for people who never heard of Christ.

Ya they do.

Where?

If this were the case, doesn't that mean that missionaries to heathen countries horrible people? If they convert 50% of the people they talk to, they've damned the other 50% to a hell they wouldn't otherwise experience.

You're aware that the vast majority of Christians are inclusivists, right?

http://www.theopedia.com...

Any stats showing a majority of Christians believe you can get into heaven without believing in Jesus as their lord and savior?

Cause as a someone who has been targeted quite often by Christians, that's been the overwhelming incentive.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/3/2013 7:34:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 7:25:21 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:50:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:32:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:52:31 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/2/2013 11:26:32 PM, Wnope wrote:
You may want to take into consideration that Allah takes into account whether or not someone has been previously exposed to the quran's message.

If a certain people have never heard the warning about judgement day, they will not receive the treatment given to those who know the quran but reject it.

Personally, I think it's more fair than Christianity. They have no exception for people who never heard of Christ.

Ya they do.

Where?

If this were the case, doesn't that mean that missionaries to heathen countries horrible people? If they convert 50% of the people they talk to, they've damned the other 50% to a hell they wouldn't otherwise experience.

You're aware that the vast majority of Christians are inclusivists, right?

http://www.theopedia.com...

Any stats showing a majority of Christians believe you can get into heaven without believing in Jesus as their lord and savior?

Cause as a someone who has been targeted quite often by Christians, that's been the overwhelming incentive.

Official catholic teaching post vatican ii is inclusivism, and I've yet to to hear a catholic dispute that official stance (they may dispute other things about church teaching however) as is the official teachings of many protestant denominations. Not sure about Eastern Orthodoxy You only really find exclusivism amongst conservative christians.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/3/2013 7:44:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 7:04:09 PM, tulle wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:58:28 PM, Mirza wrote:

In the audio version?

lol Nigerians like to quote and talk about the Bible a lot, so pretty much.

@PCP the criticism in the link you posted seems fair, and I don't see why inclusivists aren't wrong in their belief.


Did you read the for arguments?

"That infants who die are saved, without respect to faith or lineage (something that almost all proponents of exclusivism hold), shows that special revelation is not absolutely necessary for salvation."

Where's the evidence for that?


It's an inference.

"It would be unjust of God to damn those without knowledge of the gospel."

It would be. But I would consider many of the things the God of the Bible has done as unjust---that doesn't make it any less "true".

It would if God is just and by definition can't do unjust things.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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11/3/2013 8:20:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 7:34:40 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/3/2013 7:25:21 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:50:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:32:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:52:31 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/2/2013 11:26:32 PM, Wnope wrote:
You may want to take into consideration that Allah takes into account whether or not someone has been previously exposed to the quran's message.

If a certain people have never heard the warning about judgement day, they will not receive the treatment given to those who know the quran but reject it.

Personally, I think it's more fair than Christianity. They have no exception for people who never heard of Christ.

Ya they do.

Where?

If this were the case, doesn't that mean that missionaries to heathen countries horrible people? If they convert 50% of the people they talk to, they've damned the other 50% to a hell they wouldn't otherwise experience.

You're aware that the vast majority of Christians are inclusivists, right?

http://www.theopedia.com...

Any stats showing a majority of Christians believe you can get into heaven without believing in Jesus as their lord and savior?

Cause as a someone who has been targeted quite often by Christians, that's been the overwhelming incentive.

Official catholic teaching post vatican ii is inclusivism, and I've yet to to hear a catholic dispute that official stance (they may dispute other things about church teaching however) as is the official teachings of many protestant denominations. Not sure about Eastern Orthodoxy You only really find exclusivism amongst conservative christians.

Right, I forgot, "inclusivism" means everything except----

"The Vatican has quickly clarified that atheists - they believe - are still going to hell, despite Pope Francis appearing to say non-believers could be saved through Christ if they do good."

http://www.independent.co.uk...
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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11/3/2013 8:25:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 6:54:37 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/3/2013 1:08:00 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
At 11/3/2013 7:37:15 AM, Mirza wrote:
The Islamic concept of Hell is likely to be a temporary kind.

interesting statement. any proof for this?
The Qur'an never describes Hell as endless. It says that its inhabitants will remain there forever. This term only says how long they'll be during the course of its time, not how much Hell itself will be kept existing.

In contrast to Hell, Paradise is described as a reward without an end. People will remain there and the place will be endless too.

ok, mr. genius, i asked for proof (scripture/text/verses) not your 'expert' opinion about what the quran says.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/3/2013 8:36:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 8:25:51 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
ok, mr. genius, i asked for proof (scripture/text/verses) not your 'expert' opinion about what the quran says.
You made a positive assertion. Read the verses on Hell, tell me who's right. Clearly myself. Again - not surprised if it's way above your head.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/3/2013 8:38:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 8:20:25 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 11/3/2013 7:34:40 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/3/2013 7:25:21 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:50:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:32:29 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 11/3/2013 6:52:31 AM, Eitan_Zohar wrote:
At 11/2/2013 11:26:32 PM, Wnope wrote:
You may want to take into consideration that Allah takes into account whether or not someone has been previously exposed to the quran's message.

If a certain people have never heard the warning about judgement day, they will not receive the treatment given to those who know the quran but reject it.

Personally, I think it's more fair than Christianity. They have no exception for people who never heard of Christ.

Ya they do.

Where?

If this were the case, doesn't that mean that missionaries to heathen countries horrible people? If they convert 50% of the people they talk to, they've damned the other 50% to a hell they wouldn't otherwise experience.

You're aware that the vast majority of Christians are inclusivists, right?

http://www.theopedia.com...

Any stats showing a majority of Christians believe you can get into heaven without believing in Jesus as their lord and savior?

Cause as a someone who has been targeted quite often by Christians, that's been the overwhelming incentive.

Official catholic teaching post vatican ii is inclusivism, and I've yet to to hear a catholic dispute that official stance (they may dispute other things about church teaching however) as is the official teachings of many protestant denominations. Not sure about Eastern Orthodoxy You only really find exclusivism amongst conservative christians.

Right, I forgot, "inclusivism" means everything except----

"The Vatican has quickly clarified that atheists - they believe - are still going to hell, despite Pope Francis appearing to say non-believers could be saved through Christ if they do good."

http://www.independent.co.uk...

"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh. On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126); But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life.
"Lumen gentium 16"

http://en.wikipedia.org...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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11/3/2013 8:52:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 8:36:41 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/3/2013 8:25:51 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
ok, mr. genius, i asked for proof (scripture/text/verses) not your 'expert' opinion about what the quran says.
You made a positive assertion. Read the verses on Hell, tell me who's right. Clearly myself. Again - not surprised if it's way above your head.

if you already know that you're clearly right, why do you need me to tell you who's right?

you made a positive assertion by stating that according to the quran hell is temporary. you did not substantiate this claim. pulled it completely out of the hole in your back-side (perhaps you should have also pulled out that 10 foot stick in there while you were at it). then you made some completely nonsensical remarks about how abiding in hell forever does not mean hell will last forever.

here is an actual islamic scholar explaining the fact that hell is eternal according to the quran: http://islamqa.com...

I'm disappointed by the highly limited intellectual capacity of the theists here so far.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/3/2013 9:00:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/3/2013 8:52:16 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
if you already know that you're clearly right, why do you need me to tell you who's right?
To make it clear to you. Get it?

you made a positive assertion by stating that according to the quran hell is temporary.
a - As a response to your claim, and b - I didn't do so in the earlier reply.

you did not substantiate this claim.
I gave a perfectly clear explanation on what the Qur'anic verses say. Quoting them isn't necessary.

pulled it completely out of the hole in your back-side (perhaps you should have also pulled out that 10 foot stick in there while you were at it). then you made some completely nonsensical remarks about how abiding in hell forever does not mean hell will last forever.
Making it apparent that you're a sleazy idiot. Saying people will remain in Hell "forever" doesn't suffice as an argument for Hell itself lasting forever. An example - Jane will be forever happy. It doesn't mean she'll forever live, but that she will be happy as long as she lives. Understand?

here is an actual islamic scholar
Uh oh because a scholar is always right.

explaining the fact that hell is eternal according to the quran: http://islamqa.com...
I read it - certainly not evidential whatsoever.

I'm disappointed by the highly limited intellectual capacity of the theists here so far.
Sad to hear Ma'am. Now go clean your toilet.
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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11/3/2013 9:12:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I gave a perfectly clear explanation on what the Qur'anic verses say. Quoting them isn't necessary.

this says it all. which verses did you explain? how is quoting or at least referencing the verses not necessary when you are explaining what.

btw, nice insult there with the toilet. i'm sure your third grade classmates will be impressed.