Total Posts:12|Showing Posts:1-12
Jump to topic:

How do you know god is 'great'?

Quatermass
Posts: 166
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2013 2:34:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I used to be a christian a very long time ago. But it started to fade. Mainly because of science, but mainly because of the bible itself. The more I read the bible the more I began to see that god is the very epitome of evil. Yet all 'believers' insist that god is great, divine, good, righteous and so on. Let's suspend all reason for a moment and assume god actually exists.

The simple question is, without quoting the bible: how do you know?

In the bible god displays himself as jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Also a wicked trickster. Example:

1) give adam and eve a command that requires the knowledge of right and wrong.
2) don't give adam and eve that very knowledge of right and wrong.

Why would anyone give anyone an order without the prerequisite knowledge for them to obey it? It's not a test of faith if there is no knowledge to put that faith to test against. The fruit and the tree was only, therefore, a matter of time. god must have known this, being omniscient and so can only be held accountable as a wicked trickster.

Now as we all know, history is written by the victors. Lucifer is supposedly the root of all evil yet the only despicable act he can be accused of readily is his treatment of Job. And that was only after god had offered job to Lucifer anyway.

So on the one occasion Lucifer actually submits to god's authority, he is at once vilified and god praised. Seems reasonable.

Lucifer was cast down (not into hell, as that's a new testament fabrication to scare kids) for, essentially, challenging god's authority and having a desire to redistribute the wealth (in this case god's power). And he was not alone. Other Angels of the highest order felt the same way. Did they have a point? Who says that one being gets all the supreme power? Which law states this other than the law of the one with all the power?

It's clear god is evil. A tryant. A malevolence of the kind only man could create, for man did indeed create god. But that's not the issue here, we're assuming he's real.

So how do you know that you 'believers' are not simply the victim of the biggest propaganda campaign in the history of the universes?

Because the bible tells you so?

North Korean literature tells the peoples of North Korea that in every generation Kim Il-Sung is reborn to lead his people once again. They believe this as vociferously as you believe in your god. But that doesn't make it true. But since the State, who perpetrate this false belief, control all the media and literature and - as a result - the minds of the people, it becomes real to them. The State of North Korea, essentially, has godlike power over the minds and hearts of the people of North Korea.

I see a very distinct parallel between what is happening in North Korea and what is happening with judeo-christian belief systems. Still assuming god is real, and say he is evil (which is evidently is) it is within his alleged power to make you believe otherwise. By speaking into the hearts and minds of the extremely uneducated (note how jesus did not choose to be born in china where the people were able to examine evidence critically with advance systems of measurement, but be born in an illiterate, uneducated, isolated part of the world).

Because you feel his power and righteousness?

Not exactly a difficult thing to fabricate if you're the supreme power of the universe. Eve was supposedly tricked by a walking-talking snake and she was even less idiotic than you believers are because she had no way of knowing, no knowledge of lies, treachery, right, wrong, what the snake was doing.


Because he answers prayer and heals the sick?


Sure, okay. He answers prayers. So to loan sharks. The only difference between the Loan Shark Inc. company and the God Prayer Answering Co. is that it's not your arms and legs that get broken if you refuse to pay it back, but your soul that is tortured until such a time as 'god' destroys all of the unbelievers.

Here you have a supreme beings that needs the stick of hell and the carrot of heaven to win your faith and adoration. If you believe, you live forever (how very dull - and how very much an obvious play on man's vanity for life) if you don't, you burn forever (again, very unimaginative and playing on man's primal fear of burning to death). How earthly are these rewards and punishments when we think about it? Flames, eternal life, streets of gold? How very human do these promises sound?

Essentially god is holding a gun at your head and saying 'believe or die'. There's someone else in history who had a similar policy. His name was Robert Mugabe.


So. We're back to the question. Beyond fuzzy feelings, disjointed versus in an ancient book, and 'divine loans', how do you know god is great?

I submit it again: god is evil. The evil of man given form and function.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2013 4:05:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/5/2013 2:34:23 PM, Quatermass wrote:
I used to be a christian a very long time ago. But it started to fade. Mainly because of science, but mainly because of the bible itself. The more I read the bible the more I began to see that god is the very epitome of evil. Yet all 'believers' insist that god is great, divine, good, righteous and so on. Let's suspend all reason for a moment and assume god actually exists.

The simple question is, without quoting the bible: how do you know?


In the bible god displays himself as jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Also a wicked trickster. Example:

1) give adam and eve a command that requires the knowledge of right and wrong.
2) don't give adam and eve that very knowledge of right and wrong.

Why would anyone give anyone an order without the prerequisite knowledge for them to obey it? It's not a test of faith if there is no knowledge to put that faith to test against. The fruit and the tree was only, therefore, a matter of time. god must have known this, being omniscient and so can only be held accountable as a wicked trickster.

Now as we all know, history is written by the victors. Lucifer is supposedly the root of all evil yet the only despicable act he can be accused of readily is his treatment of Job. And that was only after god had offered job to Lucifer anyway.

So on the one occasion Lucifer actually submits to god's authority, he is at once vilified and god praised. Seems reasonable.

Lucifer was cast down (not into hell, as that's a new testament fabrication to scare kids) for, essentially, challenging god's authority and having a desire to redistribute the wealth (in this case god's power). And he was not alone. Other Angels of the highest order felt the same way. Did they have a point? Who says that one being gets all the supreme power? Which law states this other than the law of the one with all the power?

It's clear god is evil. A tryant. A malevolence of the kind only man could create, for man did indeed create god. But that's not the issue here, we're assuming he's real.

So how do you know that you 'believers' are not simply the victim of the biggest propaganda campaign in the history of the universes?

Because the bible tells you so?

North Korean literature tells the peoples of North Korea that in every generation Kim Il-Sung is reborn to lead his people once again. They believe this as vociferously as you believe in your god. But that doesn't make it true. But since the State, who perpetrate this false belief, control all the media and literature and - as a result - the minds of the people, it becomes real to them. The State of North Korea, essentially, has godlike power over the minds and hearts of the people of North Korea.

I see a very distinct parallel between what is happening in North Korea and what is happening with judeo-christian belief systems. Still assuming god is real, and say he is evil (which is evidently is) it is within his alleged power to make you believe otherwise. By speaking into the hearts and minds of the extremely uneducated (note how jesus did not choose to be born in china where the people were able to examine evidence critically with advance systems of measurement, but be born in an illiterate, uneducated, isolated part of the world).


Because you feel his power and righteousness?

Not exactly a difficult thing to fabricate if you're the supreme power of the universe. Eve was supposedly tricked by a walking-talking snake and she was even less idiotic than you believers are because she had no way of knowing, no knowledge of lies, treachery, right, wrong, what the snake was doing.


Because he answers prayer and heals the sick?


Sure, okay. He answers prayers. So to loan sharks. The only difference between the Loan Shark Inc. company and the God Prayer Answering Co. is that it's not your arms and legs that get broken if you refuse to pay it back, but your soul that is tortured until such a time as 'god' destroys all of the unbelievers.

Here you have a supreme beings that needs the stick of hell and the carrot of heaven to win your faith and adoration. If you believe, you live forever (how very dull - and how very much an obvious play on man's vanity for life) if you don't, you burn forever (again, very unimaginative and playing on man's primal fear of burning to death). How earthly are these rewards and punishments when we think about it? Flames, eternal life, streets of gold? How very human do these promises sound?

Essentially god is holding a gun at your head and saying 'believe or die'. There's someone else in history who had a similar policy. His name was Robert Mugabe.


So. We're back to the question. Beyond fuzzy feelings, disjointed versus in an ancient book, and 'divine loans', how do you know god is great?


I submit it again: god is evil. The evil of man given form and function.

"How do you know god is________?"

Almost anything could be put in the blank depending on the circumstances
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
Quatermass
Posts: 166
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2013 4:37:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/5/2013 4:05:39 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
"How do you know god is________?"

Almost anything could be put in the blank depending on the circumstances

That's true. But I was asking a specific question. So why waste your time giving a non-answer?
bulproof
Posts: 25,240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2013 9:04:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/5/2013 8:27:57 PM, Quatermass wrote:
I cast out thy fishing line, but alas! The fishes are too afraid to bite!
It is a scary bait you have on your hook coo coo ca choo.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Quatermass
Posts: 166
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2013 9:14:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/5/2013 9:04:03 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 11/5/2013 8:27:57 PM, Quatermass wrote:
I cast out thy fishing line, but alas! The fishes are too afraid to bite!
It is a scary bait you have on your hook coo coo ca choo.

It is scary to contemplate that you may be being lied to and have no way of knowing otherwise!

Hint; They are. But by mankind itself.
cybertron1998
Posts: 5,818
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/6/2013 3:38:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/5/2013 4:37:28 PM, Quatermass wrote:
At 11/5/2013 4:05:39 PM, cybertron1998 wrote:
"How do you know god is________?"

Almost anything could be put in the blank depending on the circumstances

That's true. But I was asking a specific question. So why waste your time giving a non-answer?

Because i rather not waste my time with the "how do you know god is evil?" Reply
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/7/2013 10:18:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/5/2013 2:34:23 PM, Quatermass wrote:
I used to be a christian a very long time ago. But it started to fade. Mainly because of science, but mainly because of the bible itself. The more I read the bible the more I began to see that god is the very epitome of evil. Yet all 'believers' insist that god is great, divine, good, righteous and so on. Let's suspend all reason for a moment and assume god actually exists.

The simple question is, without quoting the bible: how do you know?


In the bible god displays himself as jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Also a wicked trickster. Example:

1) give adam and eve a command that requires the knowledge of right and wrong.
2) don't give adam and eve that very knowledge of right and wrong.

Why would anyone give anyone an order without the prerequisite knowledge for them to obey it? It's not a test of faith if there is no knowledge to put that faith to test against. The fruit and the tree was only, therefore, a matter of time. god must have known this, being omniscient and so can only be held accountable as a wicked trickster.

Now as we all know, history is written by the victors. Lucifer is supposedly the root of all evil yet the only despicable act he can be accused of readily is his treatment of Job. And that was only after god had offered job to Lucifer anyway.

So on the one occasion Lucifer actually submits to god's authority, he is at once vilified and god praised. Seems reasonable.

Lucifer was cast down (not into hell, as that's a new testament fabrication to scare kids) for, essentially, challenging god's authority and having a desire to redistribute the wealth (in this case god's power). And he was not alone. Other Angels of the highest order felt the same way. Did they have a point? Who says that one being gets all the supreme power? Which law states this other than the law of the one with all the power?

It's clear god is evil. A tryant. A malevolence of the kind only man could create, for man did indeed create god. But that's not the issue here, we're assuming he's real.

So how do you know that you 'believers' are not simply the victim of the biggest propaganda campaign in the history of the universes?

Because the bible tells you so?

North Korean literature tells the peoples of North Korea that in every generation Kim Il-Sung is reborn to lead his people once again. They believe this as vociferously as you believe in your god. But that doesn't make it true. But since the State, who perpetrate this false belief, control all the media and literature and - as a result - the minds of the people, it becomes real to them. The State of North Korea, essentially, has godlike power over the minds and hearts of the people of North Korea.

I see a very distinct parallel between what is happening in North Korea and what is happening with judeo-christian belief systems. Still assuming god is real, and say he is evil (which is evidently is) it is within his alleged power to make you believe otherwise. By speaking into the hearts and minds of the extremely uneducated (note how jesus did not choose to be born in china where the people were able to examine evidence critically with advance systems of measurement, but be born in an illiterate, uneducated, isolated part of the world).


Because you feel his power and righteousness?

Not exactly a difficult thing to fabricate if you're the supreme power of the universe. Eve was supposedly tricked by a walking-talking snake and she was even less idiotic than you believers are because she had no way of knowing, no knowledge of lies, treachery, right, wrong, what the snake was doing.


Because he answers prayer and heals the sick?


Sure, okay. He answers prayers. So to loan sharks. The only difference between the Loan Shark Inc. company and the God Prayer Answering Co. is that it's not your arms and legs that get broken if you refuse to pay it back, but your soul that is tortured until such a time as 'god' destroys all of the unbelievers.

Here you have a supreme beings that needs the stick of hell and the carrot of heaven to win your faith and adoration. If you believe, you live forever (how very dull - and how very much an obvious play on man's vanity for life) if you don't, you burn forever (again, very unimaginative and playing on man's primal fear of burning to death). How earthly are these rewards and punishments when we think about it? Flames, eternal life, streets of gold? How very human do these promises sound?

Essentially god is holding a gun at your head and saying 'believe or die'. There's someone else in history who had a similar policy. His name was Robert Mugabe.


So. We're back to the question. Beyond fuzzy feelings, disjointed versus in an ancient book, and 'divine loans', how do you know god is great?


I submit it again: god is evil. The evil of man given form and function.

God is great because He created good and evil do deceive His people from knowing who they really are within His mind. Who else could create atomic elements that makes man believe they really exist.
bulproof
Posts: 25,240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/7/2013 9:45:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/5/2013 9:30:19 PM, Naysayer wrote:
It's ironic that Paul compares unbelievers to children. The tantrums are non-stop.

Oh stop sulking and come out and play with all the other kiddies. They don't bite, well not much. Don't be a scaredy cat.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/7/2013 10:28:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/5/2013 2:34:23 PM, Quatermass wrote:
I used to be a christian a very long time ago. But it started to fade. Mainly because of science, but mainly because of the bible itself. The more I read the bible the more I began to see that god is the very epitome of evil. Yet all 'believers' insist that god is great, divine, good, righteous and so on.

I'm not sure why I have to keep pointing this out, but on your position (moral subjectivism) there's nothing at all wrong with believers insisting that God is great, good, righteous (insert other positive moral ascriptions) - because he would be. To them. And they would be just as correct as you are in asserting that God is evil. What exactly is the problem here on your position? What's wrong with believers insisting that God is good? Are they wrong about some fact of the matter (i.e. what actions are good)? No, clearly not.

Even disregarding that point, and assuming that there is some fact of the mattersome believers are getting wrong (which assumes the falsity of moral subjectivism), most of your case here relies on specific interpretations of theological doctrines and scripture that I don't adhere to in the first place so it doesn't apply to me. There's not really much for me to reply to.

Let's suspend all reason for a moment and assume god actually exists.

The simple question is, without quoting the bible: how do you know?


In the bible god displays himself as jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Also a wicked trickster. Example:

1) give adam and eve a command that requires the knowledge of right and wrong.
2) don't give adam and eve that very knowledge of right and wrong.

Why would anyone give anyone an order without the prerequisite knowledge for them to obey it? It's not a test of faith if there is no knowledge to put that faith to test against. The fruit and the tree was only, therefore, a matter of time. god must have known this, being omniscient and so can only be held accountable as a wicked trickster.

Now as we all know, history is written by the victors. Lucifer is supposedly the root of all evil yet the only despicable act he can be accused of readily is his treatment of Job. And that was only after god had offered job to Lucifer anyway.

So on the one occasion Lucifer actually submits to god's authority, he is at once vilified and god praised. Seems reasonable.

Lucifer was cast down (not into hell, as that's a new testament fabrication to scare kids) for, essentially, challenging god's authority and having a desire to redistribute the wealth (in this case god's power). And he was not alone. Other Angels of the highest order felt the same way. Did they have a point? Who says that one being gets all the supreme power? Which law states this other than the law of the one with all the power?

It's clear god is evil. A tryant. A malevolence of the kind only man could create, for man did indeed create god. But that's not the issue here, we're assuming he's real.

So how do you know that you 'believers' are not simply the victim of the biggest propaganda campaign in the history of the universes?

Because the bible tells you so?

North Korean literature tells the peoples of North Korea that in every generation Kim Il-Sung is reborn to lead his people once again. They believe this as vociferously as you believe in your god. But that doesn't make it true. But since the State, who perpetrate this false belief, control all the media and literature and - as a result - the minds of the people, it becomes real to them. The State of North Korea, essentially, has godlike power over the minds and hearts of the people of North Korea.

I see a very distinct parallel between what is happening in North Korea and what is happening with judeo-christian belief systems. Still assuming god is real, and say he is evil (which is evidently is) it is within his alleged power to make you believe otherwise. By speaking into the hearts and minds of the extremely uneducated (note how jesus did not choose to be born in china where the people were able to examine evidence critically with advance systems of measurement, but be born in an illiterate, uneducated, isolated part of the world).


Because you feel his power and righteousness?

Not exactly a difficult thing to fabricate if you're the supreme power of the universe. Eve was supposedly tricked by a walking-talking snake and she was even less idiotic than you believers are because she had no way of knowing, no knowledge of lies, treachery, right, wrong, what the snake was doing.


Because he answers prayer and heals the sick?


Sure, okay. He answers prayers. So to loan sharks. The only difference between the Loan Shark Inc. company and the God Prayer Answering Co. is that it's not your arms and legs that get broken if you refuse to pay it back, but your soul that is tortured until such a time as 'god' destroys all of the unbelievers.

Here you have a supreme beings that needs the stick of hell and the carrot of heaven to win your faith and adoration. If you believe, you live forever (how very dull - and how very much an obvious play on man's vanity for life) if you don't, you burn forever (again, very unimaginative and playing on man's primal fear of burning to death). How earthly are these rewards and punishments when we think about it? Flames, eternal life, streets of gold? How very human do these promises sound?

Essentially god is holding a gun at your head and saying 'believe or die'. There's someone else in history who had a similar policy. His name was Robert Mugabe.


So. We're back to the question. Beyond fuzzy feelings, disjointed versus in an ancient book, and 'divine loans', how do you know god is great?


I submit it again: god is evil. The evil of man given form and function.

You mean evil to you, right?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Naysayer
Posts: 746
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/8/2013 5:56:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/7/2013 9:45:27 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 11/5/2013 9:30:19 PM, Naysayer wrote:
It's ironic that Paul compares unbelievers to children. The tantrums are non-stop.

Oh stop sulking and come out and play with all the other kiddies. They don't bite, well not much. Don't be a scaredy cat.

No sulking here. There's just no acceptable response to an attitude as is being displayed.