Total Posts:136|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Does God Change His Mind

stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:13:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

In John Chapter 16, we read the following:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

God does not change his mind, but from a prudent understanding of human nature we realize that human beings are themselves averse to changing what they believe to be true, what they think they understand, what they dogmatically profess. While God is unchanging, what man conceives of God could hardly be said to ought not to change, because in the moment that we refuse to change, we imply that we perfectly understand what God wants of us. And man cannot be perfect, do perfectly or perfectly understand because he is man, and therefore always already fallen. But there is something still yet to be said; that the Holy Spirit was sent to guide us, that he will reveal to us what we need to see as we can bear to see it, even if it could have never been seen before. And to the extent that we realize the Holy Spirit in our lives, we must also accept that our interpretation of God's word is subject to further guidance because no man perfectly understands God. We can only hope to better understand what he wants of us, though guidance by the Holy Spirit over time.
Tsar of DDO
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:33:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:13:39 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

In John Chapter 16, we read the following:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

This is an awesome passage, but I'm not sure it is a direct response to whether God changes his mind or not. If you think it does could you please point that out more specifically so that I could understand?

God does not change his mind, but from a prudent understanding of human nature we realize that human beings are themselves averse to changing what they believe to be true, what they think they understand, what they dogmatically profess. While God is unchanging, what man conceives of God could hardly be said to ought not to change, because in the moment that we refuse to change, we imply that we perfectly understand what God wants of us. And man cannot be perfect, do perfectly or perfectly understand because he is man, and therefore always already fallen. But there is something still yet to be said; that the Holy Spirit was sent to guide us, that he will reveal to us what we need to see as we can bear to see it, even if it could have never been seen before. And to the extent that we realize the Holy Spirit in our lives, we must also accept that our interpretation of God's word is subject to further guidance because no man perfectly understands God. We can only hope to better understand what he wants of us, though guidance by the Holy Spirit over time.

Again man, this is totally great stuff. I understand all that you are trying to say about the Holy Spirit, but I'm more interested in how you understand the passages in which God does, at least seem to, change his mind.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:34:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

God cannot be omnipotent, if not omniscient. God cannot control that which is unknown.
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:35:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all.

And yet, in that we can not know the future, we equally can not know what God's will is, and it is irrelevant whether or not we understand ourselves to have free will. Thus, it is both the case that humans could simultaneously think of themselves as having free will and for God to be omniscient -and thus has already predetermined every human action that ever was, is or will be. It is likewise the case that if God is omniscient, then his power would be such that he could not limit human choice, meaning that even though he would already know the choices we make, in his allowing us to choose for ourselves, he reaffirms his power by exercising mercy. Thus, in that scenario, humans would both perceive and have free will while God remained all powerful while in the latter, humans would only perceive free will while God would retain all power. In consequence, your criticism holds no water.

But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will.

Unless the future is already set, which humans could not know if it were or not, so, like your former point, this holds no water.

The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well.

I don't think you really understand what you're talking about.

Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity.

Nonsense, because if God is all powerful, then he could not be constrained but for by his own constraint, and even if he were, he could still be both inside and outside the parameters of whatever rules he established for himself because, by definition, God is all encompassing. I think your misunderstanding comes from your own conceptual misunderstanding of God.

I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?"

Even if that were the case, it has no bearing on the OP.

Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

Still has no bearing on the OP... But even still, would you like to try again?
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:37:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:33:05 PM, stubs wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:13:39 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

In John Chapter 16, we read the following:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

This is an awesome passage, but I'm not sure it is a direct response to whether God changes his mind or not. If you think it does could you please point that out more specifically so that I could understand?

God does not change his mind, but from a prudent understanding of human nature we realize that human beings are themselves averse to changing what they believe to be true, what they think they understand, what they dogmatically profess. While God is unchanging, what man conceives of God could hardly be said to ought not to change, because in the moment that we refuse to change, we imply that we perfectly understand what God wants of us. And man cannot be perfect, do perfectly or perfectly understand because he is man, and therefore always already fallen. But there is something still yet to be said; that the Holy Spirit was sent to guide us, that he will reveal to us what we need to see as we can bear to see it, even if it could have never been seen before. And to the extent that we realize the Holy Spirit in our lives, we must also accept that our interpretation of God's word is subject to further guidance because no man perfectly understands God. We can only hope to better understand what he wants of us, though guidance by the Holy Spirit over time.

Again man, this is totally great stuff. I understand all that you are trying to say about the Holy Spirit, but I'm more interested in how you understand the passages in which God does, at least seem to, change his mind.

I answered that. See the emboldened text. But, I wanted to address the bigger issue, the more imminent issue, and the only issue which we can really talk about... how we perceive God's will.

But, if God is God, then he can not change his mind because to change would imply imperfection.
Tsar of DDO
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:38:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:34:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

God cannot be omnipotent, if not omniscient. God cannot control that which is unknown.

Yeah, that's a big part of what I am saying when put in its simplest form.
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:38:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
If God changed His mind, then why did the people in Israel have to have something to atone for their sins? And why did Jesus have to die to atone for peoples' sins? That doesn't seem to me that He's changed His mind. He did things differently just to show His sovereignty, but He didn't and hasn't changed His mind.

Idk, if you want a more detailed answer, but if so, I'm willing to go for it if you need more clarity to understand this concept of God. :)
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:40:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:34:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

God cannot be omnipotent, if not omniscient. God cannot control that which is unknown.

Wrong! He knows everything... Even the number of hairs a person has on their heads. That's recorded in Scripture..
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:44:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:40:38 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:34:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

God cannot be omnipotent, if not omniscient. God cannot control that which is unknown.

Wrong! He knows everything... Even the number of hairs a person has on their heads. That's recorded in Scripture..

What Anthony was saying is that if God is omnipotent, then he must also be omniscient because to control implies to know.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:45:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:42:32 PM, DudeStop wrote:
No he does not, considering he doesn't exist.:)

I pity dogmatic atheists. I really do.
Tsar of DDO
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:46:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:44:44 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:40:38 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:34:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

God cannot be omnipotent, if not omniscient. God cannot control that which is unknown.

Wrong! He knows everything... Even the number of hairs a person has on their heads. That's recorded in Scripture..

What Anthony was saying is that if God is omnipotent, then he must also be omniscient because to control implies to know.

I see..
@Anthony, my apologies for misunderstanding your intent of words you posted..
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:48:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:

Also, in response to your response to my post, the implication is that even if there are recorded contradictions in the Bible, that does not mean that God changed his mind or contradicted himself. That is the case because the Bible was recorded by men, who could not themselves have perfectly understood God's will, because they are men.

I think that might clear things up a bit.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:48:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:46:20 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:44:44 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:40:38 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:34:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

God cannot be omnipotent, if not omniscient. God cannot control that which is unknown.

Wrong! He knows everything... Even the number of hairs a person has on their heads. That's recorded in Scripture..

What Anthony was saying is that if God is omnipotent, then he must also be omniscient because to control implies to know.

I see..
@Anthony, my apologies for misunderstanding your intent of words you posted..

I'm sure he'll understand. :)
Tsar of DDO
DudeStop
Posts: 1,278
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:53:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:45:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:42:32 PM, DudeStop wrote:
No he does not, considering he doesn't exist.:)

I pity dogmatic atheists. I really do.

Oh... I feel sad that you have been mislead into believing a fairy tale. Also that you will waste most of your life praying to something that doesn't exist, but good day to you sir. (By the way, realize that I used to be a Catholic. But once I looked at all the arguments, I realized that God is most likely not real. I could be wrong, but logic points in a direction that tells me he is not real) :0
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:54:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:48:54 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:46:20 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:44:44 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:40:38 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:34:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

God cannot be omnipotent, if not omniscient. God cannot control that which is unknown.

Wrong! He knows everything... Even the number of hairs a person has on their heads. That's recorded in Scripture..

What Anthony was saying is that if God is omnipotent, then he must also be omniscient because to control implies to know.

I see..
@Anthony, my apologies for misunderstanding your intent of words you posted..

I'm sure he'll understand. :)

Yea, its been a long day.. I should've known better than to try and reply to people when I'm like ready to fall asleep :/ ...
But yea, hopefully he does.. And thank you YYW.. :) Your a cool kat!
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
bulproof
Posts: 25,247
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:54:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:34:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

God cannot be omnipotent, if not omniscient. God cannot control that which is unknown.
God cannot be omnipotent if omniscient.
God cannot be omniscient if omnipotent.

God can't change future events or they would not have been future events in the first place.

If god can change future events then what god's omniscience sees as future events can be proven wrong.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:55:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:53:24 PM, DudeStop wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:45:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:42:32 PM, DudeStop wrote:
No he does not, considering he doesn't exist.:)

I pity dogmatic atheists. I really do.

Oh... I feel sad that you have been mislead into believing a fairy tale.

Feel whatever you like.

Also that you will waste most of your life praying to something that doesn't exist, but good day to you sir.

You poor, pitiful boy.

(By the way, realize that I used to be a Catholic. But once I looked at all the arguments, I realized that God is most likely not real. I could be wrong, but logic points in a direction that tells me he is not real) :0

The fact that you think that God's existence could be established or disproven by arguments says a great deal about you. But it does not establish or disprove God's existence.
Tsar of DDO
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:56:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:35:04 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all.

And yet, in that we can not know the future, we equally can not know what God's will is, and it is irrelevant whether or not we understand ourselves to have free will.

Why not? Even though I don't know the future, I can know what my daughter wants for Christmas. I can know what people will, so why can't I know what God wills? And why can't I decide whether or not I want to give it to him?

Thus, it is both the case that humans could simultaneously think of themselves as having free will and for God to be omniscient -and thus has already predetermined every human action that ever was, is or will be. It is likewise the case that if God is omniscient, then his power would be such that he could not limit human choice, meaning that even though he would already know the choices we make, in his allowing us to choose for ourselves, he reaffirms his power by exercising mercy.

For God (or anyone else) to be omniscient, the future would have to be already set, and there could be no free will. God can't see the undecided, as it hasn't been decided yet. For that to work then our free-will would have to be an illusion.

Thus, in that scenario, humans would both perceive and have free will while God remained all powerful while in the latter, humans would only perceive free will while God would retain all power. In consequence, your criticism holds no water.

But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will.

I can change the future, as I'm doing now. If I'd decided not to answer you then the "future" from that point would have been different. That doesn't make me omnipotent, nor would it make God so.

Unless the future is already set, which humans could not know if it were or not, so, like your former point, this holds no water.

The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well.

I don't think you really understand what you're talking about.

All due respect, but that's ironic, because I don't think you know what either of us is talking about. It's a pretty simple proposition.

Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity.

Nonsense, because if God is all powerful, then he could not be constrained but for by his own constraint, and even if he were, he could still be both inside and outside the parameters of whatever rules he established for himself because, by definition, God is all encompassing. I think your misunderstanding comes from your own conceptual misunderstanding of God.

Ummm....yeah....that's what I'm saying. God doesn't seem to be all-powerful. But even if he were physically all-powerful, he could still choose to limit those powers if he had a reason. If I could fly, I could still choose not to, for some personal or practical reason. Why is that hard to understand?

I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?"

Even if that were the case, it has no bearing on the OP.

Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

Still has no bearing on the OP... But even still, would you like to try again?

Again, all respect, but I would like to hear a comment that is worth responding to.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 9:59:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:38:00 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:34:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

God cannot be omnipotent, if not omniscient. God cannot control that which is unknown.

Yeah, that's a big part of what I am saying when put in its simplest form.

So, as you said, if God is omniscient, then, all things remain static, before God; there is no lapse in time, for there is no past, present, or future; all things are before God, at once. There is no controlling anything; for, control implies subjugation; and, subjugation is a process. There is no free will; because, nothing varies. God is the eternal unchanging one.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 10:02:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:55:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:53:24 PM, DudeStop wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:45:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:42:32 PM, DudeStop wrote:
No he does not, considering he doesn't exist.:)

I pity dogmatic atheists. I really do.

Oh... I feel sad that you have been mislead into believing a fairy tale.

Feel whatever you like.

Also that you will waste most of your life praying to something that doesn't exist, but good day to you sir.

You poor, pitiful boy.

(By the way, realize that I used to be a Catholic. But once I looked at all the arguments, I realized that God is most likely not real. I could be wrong, but logic points in a direction that tells me he is not real) :0

The fact that you think that God's existence could be established or disproven by arguments says a great deal about you. But it does not establish or disprove God's existence.

Any god that interferes with the physical universe can be proven or disproven by an analysis of his empirical clues. The god that in no way interferes with the universe cannot be proven or disproven but also becomes irrelevant as there is no reason to acknowledge his existence.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 10:04:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:56:27 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:35:04 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all.

And yet, in that we can not know the future, we equally can not know what God's will is, and it is irrelevant whether or not we understand ourselves to have free will.

Why not? Even though I don't know the future, I can know what my daughter wants for Christmas. I can know what people will, so why can't I know what God wills? And why can't I decide whether or not I want to give it to him?

Your analogy has no bearing on the topic of this conversation.

Thus, it is both the case that humans could simultaneously think of themselves as having free will and for God to be omniscient -and thus has already predetermined every human action that ever was, is or will be. It is likewise the case that if God is omniscient, then his power would be such that he could not limit human choice, meaning that even though he would already know the choices we make, in his allowing us to choose for ourselves, he reaffirms his power by exercising mercy.

For God (or anyone else) to be omniscient, the future would have to be already set, and there could be no free will.

You're reasserting what I've already disproven. That you reassert it does not mean that the argument has been revitalized.

God can't see the undecided, as it hasn't been decided yet. For that to work then our free-will would have to be an illusion.

I'm going to direct you to Anthony's powerful and all knowing, and hope that you realize that you're confusing necessary things with sufficient things. But if not, then I'm going to tell you to reread what I just wrote in reply to you previously, because it likewise rebuts what you've just posited.

Thus, in that scenario, humans would both perceive and have free will while God remained all powerful while in the latter, humans would only perceive free will while God would retain all power. In consequence, your criticism holds no water.

But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will.

I can change the future, as I'm doing now. If I'd decided not to answer you then the "future" from that point would have been different. That doesn't make me omnipotent, nor would it make God so.

Incorrect. If all actions in time are already established, then the fact that you think that you're changing the future (which is all that you, with limited knowledge and power) is all that you can know. That you think you have changed the future does not mean that your actions were not already ordered by divine plan. But again, I think in concept you don't understand what the idea of "all powerful" actually entails.

Unless the future is already set, which humans could not know if it were or not, so, like your former point, this holds no water.

The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well.

I don't think you really understand what you're talking about.

All due respect, but that's ironic, because I don't think you know what either of us is talking about. It's a pretty simple proposition.

You're talking about something that you don't understand the rules of, because you're outside of the faith. It's not really something that's of great concern to me what you think I understand, though, for reasons that should by this point in our discussion be self evident.

Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity.

Nonsense, because if God is all powerful, then he could not be constrained but for by his own constraint, and even if he were, he could still be both inside and outside the parameters of whatever rules he established for himself because, by definition, God is all encompassing. I think your misunderstanding comes from your own conceptual misunderstanding of God.

Ummm....yeah....that's what I'm saying. God doesn't seem to be all-powerful. But even if he were physically all-powerful, he could still choose to limit those powers if he had a reason. If I could fly, I could still choose not to, for some personal or practical reason. Why is that hard to understand?

I'm going to suggest that you avail yourself to reread what I wrote, because you're response to me indicates that the impact has gone over your head.

I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?"

Even if that were the case, it has no bearing on the OP.

Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

Still has no bearing on the OP... But even still, would you like to try again?

Again, all respect, but I would like to hear a comment that is worth responding to.

lol, you're not going to find what you're looking for, because your assumptions are not grounded in faith but in error.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 10:05:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 10:02:18 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:55:36 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:53:24 PM, DudeStop wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:45:11 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:42:32 PM, DudeStop wrote:
No he does not, considering he doesn't exist.:)

I pity dogmatic atheists. I really do.

Oh... I feel sad that you have been mislead into believing a fairy tale.

Feel whatever you like.

Also that you will waste most of your life praying to something that doesn't exist, but good day to you sir.

You poor, pitiful boy.

(By the way, realize that I used to be a Catholic. But once I looked at all the arguments, I realized that God is most likely not real. I could be wrong, but logic points in a direction that tells me he is not real) :0

The fact that you think that God's existence could be established or disproven by arguments says a great deal about you. But it does not establish or disprove God's existence.

Any god that interferes with the physical universe can be proven or disproven by an analysis of his empirical clues.

And what would you say those empirical clues are, Ike?

The god that in no way interferes with the universe cannot be proven or disproven but also becomes irrelevant as there is no reason to acknowledge his existence.

That's what the positivists would say, yes.
Tsar of DDO
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 10:06:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:59:43 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:38:00 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:34:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

God cannot be omnipotent, if not omniscient. God cannot control that which is unknown.

Yeah, that's a big part of what I am saying when put in its simplest form.

So, as you said, if God is omniscient, then, all things remain static, before God; there is no lapse in time, for there is no past, present, or future; all things are before God, at once. There is no controlling anything; for, control implies subjugation; and, subjugation is a process. There is no free will; because, nothing varies. God is the eternal unchanging one.

No, I'm saying something much simpler - that God might have a mind just as we do, and deals with the future as it emerges. He could have set the universe in motion and let it proceed on its own from there, with possibly some periodic intervention. Of course this is all just speculative on my part.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 10:09:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 9:46:20 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:44:44 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:40:38 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:34:36 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all. But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will. The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well. Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity. I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?" Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

God cannot be omnipotent, if not omniscient. God cannot control that which is unknown.

Wrong! He knows everything... Even the number of hairs a person has on their heads. That's recorded in Scripture..

What Anthony was saying is that if God is omnipotent, then he must also be omniscient because to control implies to know.

I see..
@Anthony, my apologies for misunderstanding your intent of words you posted..

Accepted.... I'm guilty of misunderstanding people, all the time.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 10:11:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 10:04:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:56:27 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:35:04 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all.

And yet, in that we can not know the future, we equally can not know what God's will is, and it is irrelevant whether or not we understand ourselves to have free will.

Why not? Even though I don't know the future, I can know what my daughter wants for Christmas. I can know what people will, so why can't I know what God wills? And why can't I decide whether or not I want to give it to him?

Your analogy has no bearing on the topic of this conversation.

Thus, it is both the case that humans could simultaneously think of themselves as having free will and for God to be omniscient -and thus has already predetermined every human action that ever was, is or will be. It is likewise the case that if God is omniscient, then his power would be such that he could not limit human choice, meaning that even though he would already know the choices we make, in his allowing us to choose for ourselves, he reaffirms his power by exercising mercy.

For God (or anyone else) to be omniscient, the future would have to be already set, and there could be no free will.

You're reasserting what I've already disproven. That you reassert it does not mean that the argument has been revitalized.

God can't see the undecided, as it hasn't been decided yet. For that to work then our free-will would have to be an illusion.

I'm going to direct you to Anthony's powerful and all knowing, and hope that you realize that you're confusing necessary things with sufficient things. But if not, then I'm going to tell you to reread what I just wrote in reply to you previously, because it likewise rebuts what you've just posited.

Thus, in that scenario, humans would both perceive and have free will while God remained all powerful while in the latter, humans would only perceive free will while God would retain all power. In consequence, your criticism holds no water.

But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will.

I can change the future, as I'm doing now. If I'd decided not to answer you then the "future" from that point would have been different. That doesn't make me omnipotent, nor would it make God so.

Incorrect. If all actions in time are already established, then the fact that you think that you're changing the future (which is all that you, with limited knowledge and power) is all that you can know. That you think you have changed the future does not mean that your actions were not already ordered by divine plan. But again, I think in concept you don't understand what the idea of "all powerful" actually entails.

Unless the future is already set, which humans could not know if it were or not, so, like your former point, this holds no water.

The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well.

I don't think you really understand what you're talking about.

All due respect, but that's ironic, because I don't think you know what either of us is talking about. It's a pretty simple proposition.

You're talking about something that you don't understand the rules of, because you're outside of the faith. It's not really something that's of great concern to me what you think I understand, though, for reasons that should by this point in our discussion be self evident.

Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity.

Nonsense, because if God is all powerful, then he could not be constrained but for by his own constraint, and even if he were, he could still be both inside and outside the parameters of whatever rules he established for himself because, by definition, God is all encompassing. I think your misunderstanding comes from your own conceptual misunderstanding of God.

Ummm....yeah....that's what I'm saying. God doesn't seem to be all-powerful. But even if he were physically all-powerful, he could still choose to limit those powers if he had a reason. If I could fly, I could still choose not to, for some personal or practical reason. Why is that hard to understand?

I'm going to suggest that you avail yourself to reread what I wrote, because you're response to me indicates that the impact has gone over your head.

I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?"

Even if that were the case, it has no bearing on the OP.

Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

Still has no bearing on the OP... But even still, would you like to try again?

Again, all respect, but I would like to hear a comment that is worth responding to.

lol, you're not going to find what you're looking for, because your assumptions are not grounded in faith but in error.

One thing you've definitely got right, my assumptions (actually just thoughts) are not grounded in faith. In no way have I said anything which represents my personal faith. I was not aware that this was a question pertaining to faith, but took it to be merely a random discussion of God's possible physical nature.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 10:12:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 10:05:18 PM, YYW wrote:

Any god that interferes with the physical universe can be proven or disproven by an analysis of his empirical clues.

And what would you say those empirical clues are, Ike?

The god that in no way interferes with the universe cannot be proven or disproven but also becomes irrelevant as there is no reason to acknowledge his existence.

That's what the positivists would say, yes.

I have to say, I would have never expected you to be as religious as you are. So I'm just curious... Why do you believe that god exists (in the most brief and accurate way you can answer the question)?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
YYW
Posts: 36,289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2013 10:12:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 10:11:43 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 10:04:01 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:56:27 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:35:04 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/16/2013 9:23:54 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/16/2013 8:52:58 PM, stubs wrote:
This topic has always interest me and I used to be strictly against this notion that God, as described in the bible, could/would change his mind. Now I lean more towards the idea that he has in some instances. I wanted to know what other people think. Not specifically from a philosophical point of view, but from a biblical view.

Thanks.

I've never seen any reason why God wouldn't be able to change his mind if he so wished. In fact, many of the descriptions of God's characteristics seem to border on the paradoxical. If God is omniscient then the future is set in stone, and neither he nor we have any free-choice at all.

And yet, in that we can not know the future, we equally can not know what God's will is, and it is irrelevant whether or not we understand ourselves to have free will.

Why not? Even though I don't know the future, I can know what my daughter wants for Christmas. I can know what people will, so why can't I know what God wills? And why can't I decide whether or not I want to give it to him?

Your analogy has no bearing on the topic of this conversation.

Thus, it is both the case that humans could simultaneously think of themselves as having free will and for God to be omniscient -and thus has already predetermined every human action that ever was, is or will be. It is likewise the case that if God is omniscient, then his power would be such that he could not limit human choice, meaning that even though he would already know the choices we make, in his allowing us to choose for ourselves, he reaffirms his power by exercising mercy.

For God (or anyone else) to be omniscient, the future would have to be already set, and there could be no free will.

You're reasserting what I've already disproven. That you reassert it does not mean that the argument has been revitalized.

God can't see the undecided, as it hasn't been decided yet. For that to work then our free-will would have to be an illusion.

I'm going to direct you to Anthony's powerful and all knowing, and hope that you realize that you're confusing necessary things with sufficient things. But if not, then I'm going to tell you to reread what I just wrote in reply to you previously, because it likewise rebuts what you've just posited.

Thus, in that scenario, humans would both perceive and have free will while God remained all powerful while in the latter, humans would only perceive free will while God would retain all power. In consequence, your criticism holds no water.

But if God is omnipotent then he has to be able to change the future, which means that he has changed his mind, and thus does have free will.

I can change the future, as I'm doing now. If I'd decided not to answer you then the "future" from that point would have been different. That doesn't make me omnipotent, nor would it make God so.

Incorrect. If all actions in time are already established, then the fact that you think that you're changing the future (which is all that you, with limited knowledge and power) is all that you can know. That you think you have changed the future does not mean that your actions were not already ordered by divine plan. But again, I think in concept you don't understand what the idea of "all powerful" actually entails.

Unless the future is already set, which humans could not know if it were or not, so, like your former point, this holds no water.

The future is plastic, and we may have free-will as well.

I don't think you really understand what you're talking about.

All due respect, but that's ironic, because I don't think you know what either of us is talking about. It's a pretty simple proposition.

You're talking about something that you don't understand the rules of, because you're outside of the faith. It's not really something that's of great concern to me what you think I understand, though, for reasons that should by this point in our discussion be self evident.

Frankly, it seems very likely to me that God is bound to follow certain rules, either by choice or by necessity.

Nonsense, because if God is all powerful, then he could not be constrained but for by his own constraint, and even if he were, he could still be both inside and outside the parameters of whatever rules he established for himself because, by definition, God is all encompassing. I think your misunderstanding comes from your own conceptual misunderstanding of God.

Ummm....yeah....that's what I'm saying. God doesn't seem to be all-powerful. But even if he were physically all-powerful, he could still choose to limit those powers if he had a reason. If I could fly, I could still choose not to, for some personal or practical reason. Why is that hard to understand?

I'm going to suggest that you avail yourself to reread what I wrote, because you're response to me indicates that the impact has gone over your head.

I think that in earlier times people probably needed their own nation's God to sound powerful in order to intimidate enemies, and this led to a "game" of "who's God is scariest?"

Even if that were the case, it has no bearing on the OP.

Eventually everyone's God became-all powerful and all-knowing, sort of how we speak of our own father's when we're small children. It doesn't make God a myth, but does say something about the nature of human beings.

Still has no bearing on the OP... But even still, would you like to try again?

Again, all respect, but I would like to hear a comment that is worth responding to.

lol, you're not going to find what you're looking for, because your assumptions are not grounded in faith but in error.

One thing you've definitely got right, my assumptions (actually just thoughts) are not grounded in faith. In no way have I said anything which represents my personal faith.

Indeed.

I was not aware that this was a question pertaining to faith, but took it to be merely a random discussion of God's possible physical nature.

And as such, you're not going to find what you're looking for.
Tsar of DDO