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Prophet Mohammad and Sleep Paralysis

NiqashMotawadi3
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11/21/2013 2:55:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I've studied Islam for a while now (almost five years) but only limited myself to the Qur'an and Islamic theology as they were my fields of interest.

Lately, I've decided to read three books of the Prophet's life that got me thinking in many things I would like to share... These books were respectively written by a devout Muslim, an Ex-muslim and an Islamic deist. To be honest, I haven't finished the third which I found the most interesting but I reached the part where the author fully explains what he had to say about Mohammad's childhood and prophecy. However, what I present here doesn't reflect the authors' views, but mine. My views are not settled and definite, but more of assertions I have made in the process of learning about Mohammad.

1- Mohammad had a terrible and stressful childhood

His father died before he was born and his mother died when he was still very young. He didn't live with his grandparents but Abu Taleb, who was a close relative. Abu Taleb is not described as evil but he seems to have been under economic pressure as Mohammad's job was to take his camels into the desert to graze and spend most of the day alone. It also seems apparent that Mohammad's family didn't have noble status as he lived in poverty and modesty.

2- Mohammad's prophecy draws striking parallels with sleep paralysis.

From wikipedia:

Sleep paralysis is a phenomenon in which people, either when falling asleep or wakening, temporarily experience an inability to move. More formally, it is a transition state between wakefulness and rest characterized by complete muscle atonia (muscle weakness). It can occur at sleep onset or upon awakening, and it is often associated with terrifying visions (e.g. an intruder in the room), to which one is unable to react due to paralysis. It is believed a result of disrupted REM sleep, which is normally characterized by complete muscle atonia that prevents individuals from acting out their dreams. Sleep paralysis has been linked to disorders such as narcolepsy, migraines, anxiety disorders, and obstructive sleep apnea; however, it can also occur in isolation.[1][2] When linked to another disorder, sleep paralysis commonly occurs in association with the neurological sleep disorder narcolepsy.[2]

In laymen terms, sleep paralysis is when you have an experience before or after sleeping where your eyes are opened but you can't move. This is sometimes followed with vivid illusions that appear very real until you actually wake up from the paralysis.

Some people have such experiences on a regular basis, and I believe Prophet Mohammad was one of them. But before I present his story of how he got his revelation to be a prophet, I would like to share some stories from a website I found just for such stories written by patients who suffer from sleep paralysis. Needless to say, sleep paralysis has been portrayed in many portraits as a demon siting on a woman's chest because of the feeling of being pulled down to your bed.

I'm going to underline parts which will help me draw parallels later...

Brittany Leigh (Defiance, Ohio, USA):

"I woke up randomly, and was frozen. I couldn't move a muscle except my eyelids, and I had a buzzing in my ear. Not like bees buzzing, but almost like an air compressor sound but not as loud. I looked around, feeling as if someone were staring at me. And there was a man standing in my doorway. Just staring at me. I couldn't make out the features of the man, but it looked like my dad, so I was going to say, "Dad" but I couldn't talk either. Then I woke up, and everything was normal, my door closed, and no man there. I've had many encounters but I never opened my eyes because I told myself not too. Encounters happened such as my neck being pushed down when I tried to move it, just hearing the buzzing sounds and feeling watched, and even feeling as if someone was laying next to me when I know I was alone that night."

Stacey (Montreal):

"I've had these strange experiences for years but I really thought that they were either stress related or it was just something supernatural to which I couldn't explain logically and therefore didn't share with anyone. Recently it has been happening really often, I would say at least once a week sometimes more. I usually have one of two experiences. One of these is, I first start sensing that there's something in my room, a presence. I then get ravaged with pins and needles all through my body and then I feel completely paralyzed. I feel like someone or something is holding me down. I can't move. I am sleeping but I feel like I'm completely awake. I know what's happening. It lasts for about maybe 5-10 seconds and when it's over I open my eyes, calm myself down and go back to sleep. The other experience I have doesn't start with the pins and needles but it does begin with this powerful feeling that there's a presence. I get angry and start to yell at "it" and I feel like it's grabbing me and trying to hold me down. I can even seriously feel "its" head or the hair I'm pulling from "it" and hear "it" scream or say ouch. This too lasts a few seconds and I know when it leaves the room and it's over. Sometimes these experiences are so intense that I could swear I'm being molested by the "dark side" It's really scary and I can't control it no matter what I do. I also find it happens when I'm either already in a very deep sleep or about to enter into one."

Prophet Mohammad's story:

The following account by A'esha {Ayesha} is quoted in the reliable Hadith collections of Bokhari, Moslem b. ol-Hajjaj, Abu Da'ud ot-Tayialesi, Ebn Abd ol-Barr, Nowayri, and Ebn Sayyed on-Nas, and in the Mosnad (Compilation) of the famous theologian Ahmad b. Hanbal (164/780-241/855):

"The start of the revelation was a holy vision as bright as daybreak which came to the Prophet. At sunset on a day which he had spent in the cave on Mount Hera, an angel appeared before him and said to him, 'Recite!' The Prophet answered, 'I cannot recite.""2l According to this account, Mohammad described his experience to Khadija in these words:

"He (the angel) took me and pressed me down so hard that it took away my strength.

When I revived, he again said 'Recite!' and I repeated 'I cannot recite.' He again pressed me down until I became powerless, and then released me and said, for the third time,

'Recite!' Again 1 repeated, 'I cannot.' Once more he pressed me down and released me.

Then he said 'Recite in the name of your Lord who created, created mankind from a clot of blood! Recite! And your Lord is bounteous, He who taught by the pen, taught mankind what they did not know.' Then the angel vanished, and I revived again and walked home."

We understand that the Prophet was mediating in a cave if not trying to sleep and rest. And that (1) He revived from the experience while some other interpretations clearly say "awoke. (2) He felt pushed down. (3) He had the expected fear and shock there is to have after such experiences as he was trembling and asked to be wrapped up later according to other hadeeths which explain how he arrived scared when he reached his home. (4) He felt a presence. (5) He struggled when he resisted it as it is known that when you resist sleep paralysis it only gets stronger, so you have to play along so that it goes.

I need to further develop my case and provide the causes, symptoms and signs of sleep paralysis as Mohammad claims to have heard "ringing bells" in one hadeeth which oddly is close to the "buzzing sound" others claim to have had before seeing delusions because of sleep paralysis. I also need to further emphasize on his psychological state as hadeeths say he attempted suicide after such experiences.

I just liked to share this at an early stage.
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
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11/21/2013 7:25:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/21/2013 2:55:39 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:

2- Mohammad's prophecy draws striking parallels with sleep paralysis.


I am not necessarily sure if it was sleep paralysis, even though the resemblances are remarkable. However, the one thing we can agree was that it was some non normal visual/auditory experience. There was no god.

Also we should remember he was fasting, and fasting for long times can also cause your body to act in strange ways i.e. hallucinate.
NiqashMotawadi3
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11/21/2013 1:20:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/21/2013 7:25:23 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 11/21/2013 2:55:39 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:

2- Mohammad's prophecy draws striking parallels with sleep paralysis.


I am not necessarily sure if it was sleep paralysis, even though the resemblances are remarkable. However, the one thing we can agree was that it was some non normal visual/auditory experience. There was no god.

Also we should remember he was fasting, and fasting for long times can also cause your body to act in strange ways i.e. hallucinate.

I'm not sure either, but even those who practice yoga and meditation claim to sometimes have cases of lucid dreaming and sleep paralysis. The feeling of being pulled down and talked to seems to happen in the latter as lucid dreaming is merely seeing your surroundings change.
Anti-atheist
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11/21/2013 4:15:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Muhammad also took LSD theres proof

I took LSD last night an sh1t if u didnt know better ud start a religion to
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cybertron1998
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11/21/2013 4:38:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/21/2013 4:15:04 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
Muhammad also took LSD theres proof

I took LSD last night an sh1t if u didnt know better ud start a religion to

I don't think you're talking about the same muhammad
Epsilon: There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.
muslimnomore
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11/21/2013 7:15:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Many people suffer sleep paralysis. It would not be a stretch at all to assume that Muhammad did too.
There is also some evidence to suggest that he suffered from epileptic seizures.
NiqashMotawadi3
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11/21/2013 11:06:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/21/2013 7:16:20 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
I've actually experienced sleep paralysis a few times myself. It is utterly horrifying.

I'd be interested to know your experiences as I 've had two before. I think Mohammad had an extreme case, though, as he seems to have multiple delusions in one which happens in patients who constantly suffer from sleep paralysis.
Fruitytree
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11/22/2013 8:24:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Quran was revealed to him when he was talking with the companions, when he was with his wives, actually never when he sleeps, what he sees in his sleep are visions, that were the first form of prophet-hood, before he met Gabriel.

I think your theory is dead, but if you develop it some ignorant people will still follow you, as they will like it. Please think twice before spreading falsehood.
NiqashMotawadi3
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11/22/2013 9:08:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 8:24:36 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
The Quran was revealed to him when he was talking with the companions, when he was with his wives, actually never when he sleeps, what he sees in his sleep are visions, that were the first form of prophet-hood, before he met Gabriel.

1- Sleep paralysis doesn't only occur when a person is asleep. It could occur when you're trying to sleep, meditating, sleep-deprived or in a state of deep relaxation. People surrounded with yoga partners can experience it.

2- Mohammad never specifies that he only gets revelations when awake.

Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says."... (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2)

3- Hearing the ringing of a bell is common among patients with sleep paralysis.

Rachel (Minnesota):

"This started out by happening about twice last year in 2010 and now in 2011 it happens about once a month. To tell you the truth I thought I was going crazy when I tried to explain this to my mom. This last week I was trying to sleep. This always happens on a night that I can't sleep and toss and turn a lot. I had just moved to sleep on my back and I slowly start to see images (people, faces, objects, never really sure what it is) moving towards and away from my face. I get a really loud ringing in my ears. One time it was so loud I thought I was going to go deaf. And then my whole body goes numb and I am not able to move. All I can ever do is turn my head to watch the clock to see how long it lasts. I always try to move my hands to cover my ears because it is just so loud and it never stops. This last time got crazier. It was only like a 4 minute episode. The ringing started, I was seeing faces, and I couldn't move. I get so freaked out because you feel like someone is in the room with you. I always think someone is there watching me. I then all of a sudden felt 2 hands on each of my arms. And I was picked up out of my bed and pushed up against the west wall in my room. I was there for about a minute and then I was slowly returned to my bed. I felt like I was levitating. Which makes me think like I am crazy."

4- My theory is mainly based on his experience when he met Gabriel. Mohammad could have easily faked having other visions while awake to be a source of inspiration and awe to credulous followers.
1Devilsadvocate
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11/22/2013 1:47:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Mohamed has been diagnosed with various psychological conditions over the centuries. For example, In the Middle Ages, it was common for Jewish writers to describe Muhammad as ha-meshuggah The Madman or crazy person, a term of contempt frequently used in the Bible for those who believe themselves to be prophets.

You may also be interested in http://www.islamoconfusion.com... & https://en.wikipedia.org...
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
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http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
Fruitytree
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11/22/2013 4:28:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The problem isn't the theory , but your motivation, you're not looking for the truth, you're pushing it away, it doesn't matter what revelation would be called in modern science, this completely doesn't matter, you just are trying to say Mohamed was a liar, that made up the awesome book called Quran, and that defeated God enemies, with a condition of a strange name.

In order to say that he lied and instead of showing concrete lies , you are calling how things were revealed to him as some condition's name, I just remind you that his people disbelieved in him , and called him fool and liar long before you, and he overcame them, and Islam is overcoming you despite your denial.

" And God is completing his light despite the disbelievers hatred"

If he was a depressed liar he shouldn't earn that much of your attention, and the attention of the world.

The best part is you showing me a Hadeeth to win your case ?! what do you think of this hadeeths then :

Anas reported that Allah's Apostle () called for water and he was given a vessel and the people began to perform ablution in that and I counted (the persons) and they were between fifty and eighty and I saw water which was spouting from his fingers.

Sahih Muslim 2279 a

Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas reported:

I saw on the right side of Allah's Messenger () and on his left side two persons with white clothes on the Day of Uhtid fighting a desperate fight, and I saw them neither before nor after that.

Sahih Muslim 2306 b

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger () was the best amongst people in disposition and behaviour.

Sahih Muslim 2310 b

'Ubida b. Samit reported that when wahi descended upon Allah's Apostle (), he lowered his head and so lowered his Companions their heads, and when (this state) was over, he raised his head.

Sahih Muslim 2335
muslimnomore
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11/22/2013 5:50:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/21/2013 11:06:16 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 11/21/2013 7:16:20 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
I've actually experienced sleep paralysis a few times myself. It is utterly horrifying.

I'd be interested to know your experiences as I 've had two before. I think Mohammad had an extreme case, though, as he seems to have multiple delusions in one which happens in patients who constantly suffer from sleep paralysis.

I didn't feel a 'presence'. My eyes were open, and I knew I was not dreaming (at least not the way I regularly dream). I could move my eyes. All I wanted to do was scream. I don't know why I wanted to scream. I was afraid. I just couldn't scream or make any noise whatsoever. I could not move my limbs. For some reason, I was sure that if I slept it off, I would be ok, so I managed to calmly close my eyes and go back to sleep.
If it happens to me again, I hope I will manage to calm myself. It has only happened to me once or twice as well.
muslimnomore
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11/22/2013 5:50:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 5:50:20 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
At 11/21/2013 11:06:16 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 11/21/2013 7:16:20 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
I've actually experienced sleep paralysis a few times myself. It is utterly horrifying.

I'd be interested to know your experiences as I 've had two before. I think Mohammad had an extreme case, though, as he seems to have multiple delusions in one which happens in patients who constantly suffer from sleep paralysis.

I didn't feel a 'presence'. My eyes were open, and I knew I was not dreaming (at least not the way I regularly dream). I could move my eyes. All I wanted to do was scream. I don't know why I wanted to scream. I was afraid. I just couldn't scream or make any noise whatsoever. I could not move my limbs. For some reason, I was sure that if I slept it off, I would be ok, so I managed to calmly close my eyes and go back to sleep.
If it happens to me again, I hope I will manage to calm myself. It has only happened to me once or twice as well.

*three or four times
NiqashMotawadi3
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11/22/2013 8:53:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 4:28:07 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
The problem isn't the theory , but your motivation, you're not looking for the truth, you're pushing it away, it doesn't matter what revelation would be called in modern science, this completely doesn't matter, you just are trying to say Mohamed was a liar, that made up the awesome book called Quran, and that defeated God enemies, with a condition of a strange name.


I have no motivation. I simply had an instance of sleep paralysis and when I read Mohammad's prophecy I drew a parallel. I don't think Mohammad was lying about the whole thing... I'm simply unsure what to believe until further study. I have respect for Mohammad and he is one of my favorite historic figures, regardless of some accusations against him. I still like him and think he was a revolutionary genius.

In order to say that he lied and instead of showing concrete lies , you are calling how things were revealed to him as some condition's name, I just remind you that his people disbelieved in him , and called him fool and liar long before you, and he overcame them, and Islam is overcoming you despite your denial.

They didn't believe him because he was making spectacular claims without sufficient evidence. Many of them asked for a miracle to see and according to the Qur'an, he refused to do so many to many times but said he was only a messenger. I actually value their skepticism though I would neither call him a fool or a liar if I'm undecided about what he is saying, I simply wouldn't call him a prophet and be very skeptical but I wouldn't be assuming anything about him.

" And God is completing his light despite the disbelievers hatred"


You sound confident that God exists which is a bad thing as God's existence is not backed up with good evidence.

If he was a depressed liar he shouldn't earn that much of your attention, and the attention of the world.


I beg to differ. If a great historic figure was a depressed liar say Immanuel Kant, then he still deserves the attention of the world.

The best part is you showing me a Hadeeth to win your case ?! what do you think of this hadeeths then :


I'm agnostic about the truths of hadeeths, but if a few of them make striking comparisons to psychological phenomena, then I believe they should be put under the microscope and studied. The ones I've taken are from Sahih Bukhari which is generally considered a trusted source, although I doubt (1) The untrusted method in which Bukhari and Muslim collect the hadeeths accepting 4000 or so and rejecting 300,000 or more, and (2) the rulings by Albanee and others on the authenticity of those hadeeths which is built on subjective opinions on the narrators(e/g he was drunk, she hated Mohammad, he had memory loss) which themselves are not historically based. I guess I just treat hadeeths as weakly-suggesting anecdotal evidence. However, the Qur'anic verses are not more reliable as it is highly likely that some parts of the Qur'an were omitted, changed or not preserved by memorization.

The hadeeths you presented in no way disprove what I said. They simply state that (1) A man thought two men with white cloth were standing next to Mohammad in a battle. (This is probably a fantasy to praise Mohammad and convince people that angels are fighting along his side for propaganda purposes. In 2008. stories like that emerged where I lived from the two sides at war that angels on horses were fighting with them the Godly battle, although no evidence or proof was provided. This was just to convince the two sides that God is on your side so have some courage. It makes no sense for angels to literally stand next to someone to protect him as their powers are not described to be physical. (2) Another of yourr hadeeths seems to suggest that Mohammad bowed his head for a period of time to get a revelation, which shows that he had to enter a state of deep relaxation to do so and that he was not smitten with convulsions like people having seizures, for example. But it is probable that he faked the process as in some instances, he is asked a question he can't instantly answer and he seem to does that and then say that he got a revelation.
NiqashMotawadi3
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11/22/2013 9:09:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 5:50:20 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
At 11/21/2013 11:06:16 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 11/21/2013 7:16:20 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
I've actually experienced sleep paralysis a few times myself. It is utterly horrifying.

I'd be interested to know your experiences as I 've had two before. I think Mohammad had an extreme case, though, as he seems to have multiple delusions in one which happens in patients who constantly suffer from sleep paralysis.

I didn't feel a 'presence'. My eyes were open, and I knew I was not dreaming (at least not the way I regularly dream). I could move my eyes. All I wanted to do was scream. I don't know why I wanted to scream. I was afraid. I just couldn't scream or make any noise whatsoever. I could not move my limbs. For some reason, I was sure that if I slept it off, I would be ok, so I managed to calmly close my eyes and go back to sleep.
If it happens to me again, I hope I will manage to calm myself. It has only happened to me once or twice as well.

Thanks for sharing. I had a similar experience once but with my eyes closed. I somehow imagined a drunkard/rapist in our village breathing in my closet without opening my eyes, and then I realized that I couldn't move or open my eyes and wanted to scream but simply couldn't. It took me 2 minutes to wake up from the sleep paralysis and so I was horrified.

The second time I was at my grandma's house and I was trying to sleep. I was in a state of lucid dreaming which gave me all sorts of happy dreams. A minute or two I found myself visualizing a "Syrian worker" entering the room to rob the house. I don't know why I assumed it was "Syrian" but probably because many robberies around us were blamed on Syrians. I had my eyes opened and I saw him standing there wearing a yellow-green elastic suit that looked clownish with those elastic kitchen gloves on his hands and one on his head making him look like a rooster as the three-four fingers stood above his head. Although he stood away, I sensed that I was pulled down to the bed with extra force on my chest. This continued for 10 seconds before I just managed to wiggle my toes and snap out of it. Of course, there was nobody in the room and it wasn't even at night but it was like 9:00am so the room wasn't dark, but I was too terrified to go back to sleep.
Artur
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11/23/2013 7:31:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I know nothing about paralysis and I can not write anything about it.

btw,
I have read a few hadeeth, I do not accept this person as a prophet or holy man as muslims do, but I respect this man due to his life.

I have read the book about his life, as I know, he never fought for money, for wealth, for glory and e.t.c

sometimes penalties given/composed by him was/is extremist but however he was good leader, and succesfull leader.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
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11/23/2013 7:49:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/23/2013 7:31:24 AM, Artur wrote:
I know nothing about paralysis and I can not write anything about it.

btw,
I have read a few hadeeth, I do not accept this person as a prophet or holy man as muslims do, but I respect this man due to his life.

I have read the book about his life, as I know, he never fought for money, for wealth, for glory and e.t.c

sometimes penalties given/composed by him was/is extremist but however he was good leader, and succesfull leader.

What about the raids on caravans. They were obviously for wealth in terms of whatever the caravans were carrying. So I would say that he was a good leader,but not a good person
Artur
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11/23/2013 7:58:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/23/2013 7:49:48 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:31:24 AM, Artur wrote:
I know nothing about paralysis and I can not write anything about it.

btw,
I have read a few hadeeth, I do not accept this person as a prophet or holy man as muslims do, but I respect this man due to his life.

I have read the book about his life, as I know, he never fought for money, for wealth, for glory and e.t.c

sometimes penalties given/composed by him was/is extremist but however he was good leader, and succesfull leader.

What about the raids on caravans. They were obviously for wealth in terms of whatever the caravans were carrying. So I would say that he was a good leader,but not a good person

have you read it in context or just listened from people like SAM shamoun or other islamophobs like David Wood.

first, I also listened from them but then I searched and read:

first, Muhammet had a companion named Jahsh ibn Abdullah, Muhammet commanded him like a intelligent agent and ordered him to have info about their enemies and wrote him: do not kill anybody.

but Jahsh ibn Abdullah, while he was in desert he met Nahl(I do not remember his full name), Nahl was one of the enemies of muslims, despite the command of Muhammet not to kill nor fight, he did not listen to the command, and Jahsh ibn Abdullah killed his enemy, then enemies of Muhammet wanted war against Muhammet, Muhammet explained them:
I did not command to kill your man, I commanded not to fight but he did not listen to me, we do not want to fight but Meccans did not agree with Muhammet and they were getting prepared to start a war against Muhammet and to destroy all muslims that karawan's income was for that war and Muhammet captured it in order to prevent the incoming war, yet it was not enough, Meccans wanted to fight though and war started, the name of that war was: Badeer. this was the start of wars among muslims and others.

as I said, if you read his whole biography, he never fought for money or glory or something like that.(OR I HAVE NEVER MET THE WAR HE FOUGHT FOR GLORY OR E.T.C)

he was decent man, as I know.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
Artur
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11/23/2013 8:04:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/23/2013 7:58:39 AM, Artur wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:49:48 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:31:24 AM, Artur wrote:
I know nothing about paralysis and I can not write anything about it.

btw,
I have read a few hadeeth, I do not accept this person as a prophet or holy man as muslims do, but I respect this man due to his life.

I have read the book about his life, as I know, he never fought for money, for wealth, for glory and e.t.c

sometimes penalties given/composed by him was/is extremist but however he was good leader, and succesfull leader.

What about the raids on caravans. They were obviously for wealth in terms of whatever the caravans were carrying. So I would say that he was a good leader,but not a good person


have you read it in context or just listened from people like SAM shamoun or other islamophobs like David Wood.

first, I also listened from them but then I searched and read:

first, Muhammet had a companion named Jahsh ibn Abdullah, Muhammet commanded him like a intelligent agent and ordered him to have info about their enemies and wrote him: do not kill anybody.

but Jahsh ibn Abdullah, while he was in desert he met Nahl(I do not remember his full name), Nahl was one of the enemies of muslims, despite the command of Muhammet not to kill nor fight, he did not listen to the command, and Jahsh ibn Abdullah killed his enemy, then enemies of Muhammet wanted war against Muhammet, Muhammet explained them:
I did not command to kill your man, I commanded not to fight but he did not listen to me, we do not want to fight but Meccans did not agree with Muhammet and they were getting prepared to start a war against Muhammet and to destroy all muslims that karawan's income was for that war and Muhammet captured it in order to prevent the incoming war, yet it was not enough, Meccans wanted to fight though and war started, the name of that war was: Badeer. this was the start of wars among muslims and others.

as I said, if you read his whole biography, he never fought for money or glory or something like that.(OR I HAVE NEVER MET THE WAR HE FOUGHT FOR GLORY OR E.T.C)

he was decent man, as I know.

btw, I forgot to write: Muhammet offered to penalise Jahsh, but Meccans wanted war.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
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11/23/2013 8:07:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/23/2013 7:58:39 AM, Artur wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:49:48 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:31:24 AM, Artur wrote:
I know nothing about paralysis and I can not write anything about it.

btw,
I have read a few hadeeth, I do not accept this person as a prophet or holy man as muslims do, but I respect this man due to his life.

I have read the book about his life, as I know, he never fought for money, for wealth, for glory and e.t.c

sometimes penalties given/composed by him was/is extremist but however he was good leader, and succesfull leader.

What about the raids on caravans. They were obviously for wealth in terms of whatever the caravans were carrying. So I would say that he was a good leader,but not a good person


have you read it in context or just listened from people like SAM shamoun or other islamophobs like David Wood.

first, I also listened from them but then I searched and read:

first, Muhammet had a companion named Jahsh ibn Abdullah, Muhammet commanded him like a intelligent agent and ordered him to have info about their enemies and wrote him: do not kill anybody.

but Jahsh ibn Abdullah, while he was in desert he met Nahl(I do not remember his full name), Nahl was one of the enemies of muslims, despite the command of Muhammet not to kill nor fight, he did not listen to the command, and Jahsh ibn Abdullah killed his enemy, then enemies of Muhammet wanted war against Muhammet, Muhammet explained them:
I did not command to kill your man, I commanded not to fight but he did not listen to me, we do not want to fight but Meccans did not agree with Muhammet and they were getting prepared to start a war against Muhammet and to destroy all muslims that karawan's income was for that war and Muhammet captured it in order to prevent the incoming war, yet it was not enough, Meccans wanted to fight though and war started, the name of that war was: Badeer. this was the start of wars among muslims and others.

as I said, if you read his whole biography, he never fought for money or glory or something like that.(OR I HAVE NEVER MET THE WAR HE FOUGHT FOR GLORY OR E.T.C)

he was decent man, as I know.

And what does that have to do with raiding caravans? I was not talking about killing,I am talking about raiding caravans. Stealing in other words, obtaining things for wealth.

BTW, I have read about Muhammeds life from an independent source. The bookis called Muhammed by Karen Armstrong. My Muslim friend seems to think this is a good book,so I hope I am not been an Islamaphobe.
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
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11/23/2013 8:08:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/23/2013 8:04:03 AM, Artur wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:58:39 AM, Artur wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:49:48 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:31:24 AM, Artur wrote:
I know nothing about paralysis and I can not write anything about it.

btw,
I have read a few hadeeth, I do not accept this person as a prophet or holy man as muslims do, but I respect this man due to his life.

I have read the book about his life, as I know, he never fought for money, for wealth, for glory and e.t.c

sometimes penalties given/composed by him was/is extremist but however he was good leader, and succesfull leader.

What about the raids on caravans. They were obviously for wealth in terms of whatever the caravans were carrying. So I would say that he was a good leader,but not a good person


have you read it in context or just listened from people like SAM shamoun or other islamophobs like David Wood.

first, I also listened from them but then I searched and read:

first, Muhammet had a companion named Jahsh ibn Abdullah, Muhammet commanded him like a intelligent agent and ordered him to have info about their enemies and wrote him: do not kill anybody.

but Jahsh ibn Abdullah, while he was in desert he met Nahl(I do not remember his full name), Nahl was one of the enemies of muslims, despite the command of Muhammet not to kill nor fight, he did not listen to the command, and Jahsh ibn Abdullah killed his enemy, then enemies of Muhammet wanted war against Muhammet, Muhammet explained them:
I did not command to kill your man, I commanded not to fight but he did not listen to me, we do not want to fight but Meccans did not agree with Muhammet and they were getting prepared to start a war against Muhammet and to destroy all muslims that karawan's income was for that war and Muhammet captured it in order to prevent the incoming war, yet it was not enough, Meccans wanted to fight though and war started, the name of that war was: Badeer. this was the start of wars among muslims and others.

as I said, if you read his whole biography, he never fought for money or glory or something like that.(OR I HAVE NEVER MET THE WAR HE FOUGHT FOR GLORY OR E.T.C)

he was decent man, as I know.

btw, I forgot to write: Muhammet offered to penalise Jahsh, but Meccans wanted war.

I forgot to add. Was he a decent man before or after having sex with a nine year old. Or do we call it rape when the girl is 9.
Artur
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11/23/2013 8:18:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/23/2013 8:07:29 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:58:39 AM, Artur wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:49:48 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:31:24 AM, Artur wrote:
I know nothing about paralysis and I can not write anything about it.

btw,
I have read a few hadeeth, I do not accept this person as a prophet or holy man as muslims do, but I respect this man due to his life.

I have read the book about his life, as I know, he never fought for money, for wealth, for glory and e.t.c

sometimes penalties given/composed by him was/is extremist but however he was good leader, and succesfull leader.

What about the raids on caravans. They were obviously for wealth in terms of whatever the caravans were carrying. So I would say that he was a good leader,but not a good person


have you read it in context or just listened from people like SAM shamoun or other islamophobs like David Wood.

first, I also listened from them but then I searched and read:

first, Muhammet had a companion named Jahsh ibn Abdullah, Muhammet commanded him like a intelligent agent and ordered him to have info about their enemies and wrote him: do not kill anybody.

but Jahsh ibn Abdullah, while he was in desert he met Nahl(I do not remember his full name), Nahl was one of the enemies of muslims, despite the command of Muhammet not to kill nor fight, he did not listen to the command, and Jahsh ibn Abdullah killed his enemy, then enemies of Muhammet wanted war against Muhammet, Muhammet explained them:
I did not command to kill your man, I commanded not to fight but he did not listen to me, we do not want to fight but Meccans did not agree with Muhammet and they were getting prepared to start a war against Muhammet and to destroy all muslims that karawan's income was for that war and Muhammet captured it in order to prevent the incoming war, yet it was not enough, Meccans wanted to fight though and war started, the name of that war was: Badeer. this was the start of wars among muslims and others.

as I said, if you read his whole biography, he never fought for money or glory or something like that.(OR I HAVE NEVER MET THE WAR HE FOUGHT FOR GLORY OR E.T.C)

he was decent man, as I know.

And what does that have to do with raiding caravans? I was not talking about killing,I am talking about raiding caravans. Stealing in other words, obtaining things for wealth.

BTW, I have read about Muhammeds life from an independent source. The bookis called Muhammed by Karen Armstrong. My Muslim friend seems to think this is a good book,so I hope I am not been an Islamaphobe.

he captured karawan not for money or glory, he capture the karavan in order to prevent the war. I have written it.

he wanted to prevent the incoming war among muslims and meccans, that is why he captured the karavan. result: he captured caravan not for glory or wealth, he did it to prevent the war. I have written it. he wanted to protect his followers from his enemies, if his enemies did not want to kill them, then he wouldnot have captured the karawan.

by the way:

{{{I forgot to add. Was he a decent man before or after having sex with a nine year old. Or do we call it rape when the girl is 9.}}}
first, having sex with children doesnot change that he was decent man, it just changes his orientation.
2. at that times, it was a tradition among arabs, at that times, if they knew that it is a pedophilia to have sex with child, I guess he wouldnot have done it.

you have talked about independent source, let me talk to:

Micheal Hart was a jewish historian and writer who wrote the book: the 100, he ranked Muhammet first place, I have not read this book, just I want to say:

before judging Muhammet or anybody, learn him. I am not a muslim nor was Micheal Hart, but we both analysed the life of Muhammet, I consider him as a good leader and a decent man. and when compared to anyother religious leader, if one of them was to be the president of the USA I would vote Muhammet, not Jesus or others(I know christianity too).

I think, having sex with child is his minus, everybody has minus, even Muhammet. anyway, when you read about AIsha, she was happy of getting married to him

anyway, I can not change your mind, it is time to go and long time, I will have no free time I think.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
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11/23/2013 8:40:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/23/2013 8:18:56 AM, Artur wrote:
At 11/23/2013 8:07:29 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:58:39 AM, Artur wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:49:48 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 11/23/2013 7:31:24 AM, Artur wrote:

first, I also listened from them but then I searched and read:

first, Muhammet had a companion named Jahsh ibn Abdullah, Muhammet commanded him like a intelligent agent and ordered him to have info about their enemies and wrote him: do not kill anybody.

but Jahsh ibn Abdullah, while he was in desert he met Nahl(I do not remember his full name), Nahl was one of the enemies of muslims, despite the command of Muhammet not to kill nor fight, he did not listen to the command, and Jahsh ibn Abdullah killed his enemy, then enemies of Muhammet wanted war against Muhammet, Muhammet explained them:
I did not command to kill your man, I commanded not to fight but he did not listen to me, we do not want to fight but Meccans did not agree with Muhammet and they were getting prepared to start a war against Muhammet and to destroy all muslims that karawan's income was for that war and Muhammet captured it in order to prevent the incoming war, yet it was not enough, Meccans wanted to fight though and war started, the name of that war was: Badeer. this was the start of wars among muslims and others.

as I said, if you read his whole biography, he never fought for money or glory or something like that.(OR I HAVE NEVER MET THE WAR HE FOUGHT FOR GLORY OR E.T.C)

he was decent man, as I know.

And what does that have to do with raiding caravans? I was not talking about killing,I am talking about raiding caravans. Stealing in other words, obtaining things for wealth.

BTW, I have read about Muhammeds life from an independent source. The bookis called Muhammed by Karen Armstrong. My Muslim friend seems to think this is a good book,so I hope I am not been an Islamaphobe.

he captured karawan not for money or glory, he capture the karavan in order to prevent the war. I have written it.

he wanted to prevent the incoming war among muslims and meccans, that is why he captured the karavan. result: he captured caravan not for glory or wealth, he did it to prevent the war. I have written it. he wanted to protect his followers from his enemies, if his enemies did not want to kill them, then he wouldnot have captured the karawan.

If this is true, then when they left Mecca then that should have been the end of the war with Mecca yet it continued because they felt they had the right to stuff they left behind in Mecca. This is why they raided, for personal gain there is no way to spin this.

Koran 22: 39-40: Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory; hose who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com...

by the way:

{{{I forgot to add. Was he a decent man before or after having sex with a nine year old. Or do we call it rape when the girl is 9.}}}
first, having sex with children doesnot change that he was decent man, it just changes his orientation.
2. at that times, it was a tradition among arabs, at that times, if they knew that it is a pedophilia to have sex with child, I guess he wouldnot have done it.

Yes, you can argue that. However there are still cases today where young girls are dying in Islamic countries due to sex with old pedophile men. So I am sure young girls died in that time as well, this morality was clearly absent. Remember, if something is a tradition it does not make it right.

ANd yes having sex with children does make you a pedophile and not a decent man. If you can say honestly to me that "having sex with children does not change that he was decent man" then you need to look at your own morals.

you have talked about independent source, let me talk to:

Micheal Hart was a jewish historian and writer who wrote the book: the 100, he ranked Muhammet first place, I have not read this book, just I want to say:

before judging Muhammet or anybody, learn him. I am not a muslim nor was Micheal Hart, but we both analysed the life of Muhammet, I consider him as a good leader and a decent man. and when compared to anyother religious leader, if one of them was to be the president of the USA I would vote Muhammet, not Jesus or others(I know christianity too).

I think, having sex with child is his minus, everybody has minus, even Muhammet. anyway, when you read about AIsha, she was happy of getting married to him


anyway, I can not change your mind, it is time to go and long time, I will have no free time I think.

I think I have answered the paedophile question adequately. I just think you need to read further as he certainly was not a decent man according to what I highlighted above.
Artur
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12/28/2013 6:42:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I now have seen your anmswer, now I will answer:
I am quoting:
If this is true, then when they left Mecca then that should have been the end of the war with Mecca yet it continued because they felt they had the right to stuff they left behind in Mecca. This is why they raided, for personal gain there is no way to spin this.
first he has been firewd/expelled from Mecca but even after that Abu Suphyan and Sooheyl wanted to destroy them even when they were in Medina too.

I am quoting:
Koran 22: 39-40: Sanction is given unto those who fight because they have been wronged; and Allah is indeed Able to give them victory; hose who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com......

I have read this surah, I wil not deny that Muhammet said this toi his followers, but I think it was to inspire his soldiers, to give them morale, to set them believe in themselves and e.t.c

I quoting:
Yes, you can argue that. However there are still cases today where young girls are dying in Islamic countries due to sex with old pedophile men. So I am sure young girls died in that time as well, this morality was clearly absent. Remember, if something is a tradition it does not make it right.

ANd yes having sex with children does make you a pedophile and not a decent man. If you can say honestly to me that "having sex with children does not change that he was decent man" then you need to look at your own morals.

first of all you cannot expect a man of the seventh century to behave, to live according to the life standarts of the 21st century.

yes young girls are still dying nowadays due to sex with old [pedophile] men, but there are also girls&women who die due to sex with young boys, does it mean having sex with young girls, women is wrong? so no point in saying:

childrern died at that times too, so it doesnot make sense, if children die due to sex, so do the woman, does it mean that having sex withwomen is wrong?

I do not say having sex with 9 years old girls is ok, but it is so absurd to expect a man to behave according to the life standarts of the 21 sentury.

yes, tradition does not make it right but the life standart came after 14 centuries of that event does not make them available to expect them to behave according to it.

I am quoting:
I forgot to add. Was he a decent man before or after having sex with a nine year old. Or do we call it rape when the girl is 9. [from your older comment] after having sex with the girl at 9 and fighting, he was a decent man.

having sex with 9 years old girl maybe something not accepted in 21st century, because now we live according to the life standart of 21st century, if you are going to judge him do not do it according to the life standart/tradition of now, do it according to the life time of his time.

now, in our modern life, presidents/political leaders are expected to behave normally, in a democratic way but it is absurd to judge a king whjo lived in the year 969 for not behaving in a democratic way. judginf Muhammet according to the life standart of now is an absurd thing, can you know what the life standart will be in 35 th century? can you behave according to the life standart of 35th century? how do you expect a man who lived in the 7th century to behave accortdign to the life standart of 21st century? it makes no sense, after 14 centuries from now on, we also may be pedophile, we do not know what life standart will be in 35th century. if in the 35th century having sex with women younger than 25 becomes something not accepted will it us something like that?
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
biomystic
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12/29/2013 12:34:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I've been getting spiritual visions and revelations on and off for the last 34 years. Enough new spiritual material to easily start a new religion or two--If God had wanted another organized body of True Believers, which God doesn't want any more, had enough of them to last an eternity.

But I do want to report that in my very first religious conversion experience, my personal "Road to Damascus" three day spiritual boot camp God put me through that just so overwhelmed my prior atheist mindset that it never returned, how could it, no one wants to go back to swimming in the pond when they've crawled out on land and seen the Sky!, I did experience profuse sweating with each revelation and shaking as well. I looked like a malaria sufferer but my actual temperature was only slightly raised and I discovered my Angel hiding in my life. Not as any physical being, but as a sort of Archetypal Complex that has the angelic identity. Gabriel was said to attend the Christ Advent and Gabriel was said to guide Muhammad. But it was the Angel of Peace, the Angel of Jerusalem, the Lion of God, Ariel, who is my guiding Angel. Ariel is the Archangel of the Age of Aquarius.

Now the atheists won't believe a word of this and will as usual look for brain disorders, group hypnosis, anything to not look at the reported spiritual experiences which are dismissed as delusions and signs of mental illness.

But hey, I got my proof delivered by God so many times now I can pretty much roll over any critics attempts to erase evidence of Divine intervention in my life, in our times.
NiqashMotawadi3
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12/29/2013 5:43:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 12:34:50 AM, biomystic wrote:
I've been getting spiritual visions and revelations on and off for the last 34 years. Enough new spiritual material to easily start a new religion or two--If God had wanted another organized body of True Believers, which God doesn't want any more, had enough of them to last an eternity.

But I do want to report that in my very first religious conversion experience, my personal "Road to Damascus" three day spiritual boot camp God put me through that just so overwhelmed my prior atheist mindset that it never returned, how could it, no one wants to go back to swimming in the pond when they've crawled out on land and seen the Sky!, I did experience profuse sweating with each revelation and shaking as well. I looked like a malaria sufferer but my actual temperature was only slightly raised and I discovered my Angel hiding in my life. Not as any physical being, but as a sort of Archetypal Complex that has the angelic identity. Gabriel was said to attend the Christ Advent and Gabriel was said to guide Muhammad. But it was the Angel of Peace, the Angel of Jerusalem, the Lion of God, Ariel, who is my guiding Angel. Ariel is the Archangel of the Age of Aquarius.

Now the atheists won't believe a word of this and will as usual look for brain disorders, group hypnosis, anything to not look at the reported spiritual experiences which are dismissed as delusions and signs of mental illness.

But hey, I got my proof delivered by God so many times now I can pretty much roll over any critics attempts to erase evidence of Divine intervention in my life, in our times.

It is plausible that you are experiencing actual revelations, but it also could be that you're self-deluded and that you suffer from delusions of grandeur. I don't see a good reason to completely chalk out the latter or the former, but the former is spectacular and you haven't submitted great evidence for your self-acclaimed prophecy.

Religious experience is not a reliable method of epistemology as people have religious experiences with contradicting and multiple outcomes/conclusions.
biomystic
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12/29/2013 7:10:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Try a religious vision that took 14 years to complete (actually still in spiritual motion) that produced the Holy Land's newest and most spiritually powerful religious icon honored by over 500 Nazarean Christians and Muslims too at Easter in Nazareth, Israel.
NiqashMotawadi3
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12/29/2013 7:30:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 7:10:34 AM, biomystic wrote:
Try a religious vision that took 14 years to complete (actually still in spiritual motion) that produced the Holy Land's newest and most spiritually powerful religious icon honored by over 500 Nazarean Christians and Muslims too at Easter in Nazareth, Israel.

(1) You can read about Prophets and think you are one of them, similarly to Joseph Smith, Muslimyah and many other historic figures.

(2) The continuity you speak about seems to be also illusory, as I have no objective or empirical method to dictate whether such visions follow each other or are separate cases of Messiah complexes and delusions of grandeur.

(3) Your religious vision contradicts that of Sikhism, Buddhism and Wiccanism. Why should I believe you and disbelieve in their religious experiences?
biomystic
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12/29/2013 7:43:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 7:30:55 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 12/29/2013 7:10:34 AM, biomystic wrote:
Try a religious vision that took 14 years to complete (actually still in spiritual motion) that produced the Holy Land's newest and most spiritually powerful religious icon honored by over 500 Nazarean Christians and Muslims too at Easter in Nazareth, Israel.

(1) You can read about Prophets and think you are one of them, similarly to Joseph Smith, Muslimyah and many other historic figures.

(2) The continuity you speak about seems to be also illusory, as I have no objective or empirical method to dictate whether such visions follow each other or are separate cases of Messiah complexes and delusions of grandeur.

(3) Your religious vision contradicts that of Sikhism, Buddhism and Wiccanism. Why should I believe you and disbelieve in their religious experiences?

You don't have to believe or disbelieve anything. Your opinion means is of no merit as I can see right off the bat you carry a load against spiritual revelation not authorized by whatever authority you think appropriate. Well, like I say, what you think doesn't apply to what I've experienced and many others confirm my experiences. You're just one person who wasn't there, and doesn't think such things happen and someone saying they do is a challenge to you to attack. This is Spirit phenomena, not a test tube lab experiment. You don't come at it with a negative attitude. I will tell you this. My work for God was also honored by the Archbishop of the Holy Land Dioceses, so again, whatever your opinion is, it N/A to Divine intervention in our times. Those with spiritual eyes to see, see.