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lewis20
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11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I was raised christian and never venture into this forum.
That being said these are the questions I can never seem to get straight answers for.

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it? Any lesson we choose to take from it is necessarily 'picked and chose' based on modern standards.

Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. So all Jews are going to hell right?

The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right? They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

Not to even get into the creationism
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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11/22/2013 12:55:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Jews are Gods chosen people"

Are? Or were?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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11/22/2013 10:51:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 12:55:16 AM, annanicole wrote:
"Jews are Gods chosen people"

Are? Or were?

So jews are going to hell now? Cleared that one up for me.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
PGA
Posts: 4,049
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11/22/2013 12:46:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I was raised christian and never venture into this forum.
That being said these are the questions I can never seem to get straight answers for.

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it? Any lesson we choose to take from it is necessarily 'picked and chose' based on modern standards.

So far no one has attempted to answer any of your questions, so here are my thoughts on the subject. The Bible, OT and NT is a revelation from God in which He speaks to us. God created man and gave him, in Adam, freedom to know Him or freedom to live outside that relationship. Man, in Adam, chose to abandon that relationship and live by his own means. With this choice came consequences that God put in place to lead us to Him. Man's inhumanity to man is a glaring example of man trying to live outside of God's good commands.

We are trying to find meaning and goodness outside of the One who is both.

In the OT He chose a people to make Himself know by, bought them into a covenant relationship in which they agreed to honor Him and live according to His law. It was an 'if/then' covenant that always pointed towards a better way, because, if man was capable of living up to God's goodness by his own ability he would have to live perfectly before God. If he did not then he would have to pay the penalty of his sin by putting an end to something that was costly to him, one of his livestock (one without spot or blemish - i.e. the best) that was to represent his punishment -death (the soul that sins shall die). The problem is that this sacrifice could never take away sin, for when the man sinned again another sacrifice was needed, over and over again.

What all this was teaching man is that our efforts always miss the mark. Therefore God sent His Son into the world to save all those who would put there trust in Him, because He became their sacrifice, a sacrifice that did not have to be offered over and over again because it satisfied both the justice and wrath of God.

The whole of the OT, of human history, was pointing towards this sacrifice. Jesus is portrayed in every book of the OT in types and shadows.

So to sum up, what the OT did was show man his inability to live righteously before God, at the same time always pointing to the way that would.

Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. So all Jews are going to hell right?

They were always a stiff-necked people, never willing to submit to God's goodness and guidance. He kept warning them that He would break His covenant with them if they did not repent and turn fully to Him. The Old Covenant was broken/ended in A.D 70 when God brought judgment on this people in full. For the most part they were only Jews in outward appearance, never in faith and trust.

The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right? They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

It appears that was the case, but I do not speak for God on this point, other that to say that Jesus is necessary for salvation. The Bible makes it plain that we are all guilty before God, everyone has sinned and done what is wrong in God's eyes (except of course the Son - it all points to Him). God is just in punishing wrong. If He let wrongful actions go unpunished how could He be considered just or good?

Peter
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/22/2013 4:40:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I was raised christian and never venture into this forum.
That being said these are the questions I can never seem to get straight answers for.

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it?

Even if God got a lot wrong in it - which I would dispute, I'd rather say the people writing about God did - that doesn't mean there isn't a lot right in it either.

Any lesson we choose to take from it is necessarily 'picked and chose' based on modern standards.


There's not necessarily anything bad with picking and choosing.
Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus.

Correct.

So all Jews are going to hell right?

I doubt it.

The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right?

No.

They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

Of course it matters.

Not to even get into the creationism

What about it?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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11/22/2013 4:40:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lewis20: " "Jews are Gods chosen people"

Anna: Are? Or were?

Lewis20: So jews are going to hell now? Cleared that one up for me.


Anna: I'm not sure you answered the question. In fact, I'm pretty sure that you didn't.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/22/2013 4:41:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 12:46:00 PM, PGA wrote:
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I was raised christian and never venture into this forum.
That being said these are the questions I can never seem to get straight answers for.

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it? Any lesson we choose to take from it is necessarily 'picked and chose' based on modern standards.

So far no one has attempted to answer any of your questions, so here are my thoughts on the subject. The Bible, OT and NT is a revelation from God in which He speaks to us. God created man and gave him, in Adam, freedom to know Him or freedom to live outside that relationship. Man, in Adam, chose to abandon that relationship and live by his own means. With this choice came consequences that God put in place to lead us to Him. Man's inhumanity to man is a glaring example of man trying to live outside of God's good commands.

We are trying to find meaning and goodness outside of the One who is both.

In the OT He chose a people to make Himself know by, bought them into a covenant relationship in which they agreed to honor Him and live according to His law. It was an 'if/then' covenant that always pointed towards a better way, because, if man was capable of living up to God's goodness by his own ability he would have to live perfectly before God. If he did not then he would have to pay the penalty of his sin by putting an end to something that was costly to him, one of his livestock (one without spot or blemish - i.e. the best) that was to represent his punishment -death (the soul that sins shall die). The problem is that this sacrifice could never take away sin, for when the man sinned again another sacrifice was needed, over and over again.

What all this was teaching man is that our efforts always miss the mark. Therefore God sent His Son into the world to save all those who would put there trust in Him, because He became their sacrifice, a sacrifice that did not have to be offered over and over again because it satisfied both the justice and wrath of God.

The whole of the OT, of human history, was pointing towards this sacrifice. Jesus is portrayed in every book of the OT in types and shadows.

So to sum up, what the OT did was show man his inability to live righteously before God, at the same time always pointing to the way that would.

Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. So all Jews are going to hell right?

They were always a stiff-necked people, never willing to submit to God's goodness and guidance. He kept warning them that He would break His covenant with them if they did not repent and turn fully to Him. The Old Covenant was broken/ended in A.D 70 when God brought judgment on this people in full. For the most part they were only Jews in outward appearance, never in faith and trust.

The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right? They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

It appears that was the case, but I do not speak for God on this point, other that to say that Jesus is necessary for salvation.

Is explicit belief in Jesus necessary for salvation?

The Bible makes it plain that we are all guilty before God, everyone has sinned and done what is wrong in God's eyes (except of course the Son - it all points to Him). God is just in punishing wrong. If He let wrongful actions go unpunished how could He be considered just or good?

Peter
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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11/22/2013 5:01:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I was raised christian and never venture into this forum.
That being said these are the questions I can never seem to get straight answers for.

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it? Any lesson we choose to take from it is necessarily 'picked and chose' based on modern standards.

Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. So all Jews are going to hell right?

The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right? They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

Not to even get into the creationism

So called xtianity is a lie founded upon MYTHICAL characters like the biblical jebus!

The claim that Story book jebus can ' die for the sins of another ' is a lie as proved by Story book Deut. 24:16 & Ezek. 18:20.

The so called xtian claim that all genuine believers are Heaven bound is also a lie!

The biblical Hell is simply the Grave!

The biblical jebus was an eternal Jew however it is still a Historical MYTHICAL character and thus its religious ideology of no consequence apart from affecting those dupes that still want to accept it as their own?

ALL acclaimed ' holy-text ' is merely a human fabrication for their own choice of propaganda.

The sum total evidence that ANY acclaimed ' holy-text ' was given, came from, or was inspired by ANY literal Supernatural being remains a constant zero!

ALL Supernatural god(s) are merely the unsubstantiated fabrication & concept of some humans.

Recent Data also confirms that religiosity is actually detrimental to decent societies & secular societies fair & prosper far better, especially morally!

Large-scale surveys show dramatic declines in religiosity in favor of secularization in the developed democracies. Popular acceptance of evolutionary science correlates negatively with levels of religiosity, and the United States is the only prosperous nation where the majority absolutely believes in a creator and evolutionary science is unpopular. Abundant data is available on rates of societal dysfunction and health in the first world. Cross-national comparisons of highly differing rates of religiosity and societal conditions form a mass epidemiological experiment that can be used to test whether high rates of belief in and worship of a creator are necessary for high levels of social health. Data correlations show that in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy low rates of societal dysfunction, while pro-religious and anti-evolution America performs poorly. (Source: http://moses.creighton.edu...)
leviticus88
Posts: 18
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11/22/2013 5:51:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 12:46:00 PM, PGA wrote:
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I was raised christian and never venture into this forum.
That being said these are the questions I can never seem to get straight answers for.

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it? Any lesson we choose to take from it is necessarily 'picked and chose' based on modern standards.

So far no one has attempted to answer any of your questions, so here are my thoughts on the subject. The Bible, OT and NT is a revelation from God in which He speaks to us. God created man and gave him, in Adam, freedom to know Him or freedom to live outside that relationship. Man, in Adam, chose to abandon that relationship and live by his own means. With this choice came consequences that God put in place to lead us to Him. Man's inhumanity to man is a glaring example of man trying to live outside of God's good commands.

We are trying to find meaning and goodness outside of the One who is both.

In the OT He chose a people to make Himself know by, bought them into a covenant relationship in which they agreed to honor Him and live according to His law. It was an 'if/then' covenant that always pointed towards a better way, because, if man was capable of living up to God's goodness by his own ability he would have to live perfectly before God. If he did not then he would have to pay the penalty of his sin by putting an end to something that was costly to him, one of his livestock (one without spot or blemish - i.e. the best) that was to represent his punishment -death (the soul that sins shall die). The problem is that this sacrifice could never take away sin, for when the man sinned again another sacrifice was needed, over and over again.

What all this was teaching man is that our efforts always miss the mark. Therefore God sent His Son into the world to save all those who would put there trust in Him, because He became their sacrifice, a sacrifice that did not have to be offered over and over again because it satisfied both the justice and wrath of God.

The whole of the OT, of human history, was pointing towards this sacrifice. Jesus is portrayed in every book of the OT in types and shadows.

So to sum up, what the OT did was show man his inability to live righteously before God, at the same time always pointing to the way that would.

Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. So all Jews are going to hell right?

They were always a stiff-necked people, never willing to submit to God's goodness and guidance. He kept warning them that He would break His covenant with them if they did not repent and turn fully to Him. The Old Covenant was broken/ended in A.D 70 when God brought judgment on this people in full. For the most part they were only Jews in outward appearance, never in faith and trust.

The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right? They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

It appears that was the case, but I do not speak for God on this point, other that to say that Jesus is necessary for salvation. The Bible makes it plain that we are all guilty before God, everyone has sinned and done what is wrong in God's eyes (except of course the Son - it all points to Him). God is just in punishing wrong. If He let wrongful actions go unpunished how could He be considered just or good?

Peter

Excellent Post! I agree on nearly every point.
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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11/22/2013 5:54:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I was raised christian and never venture into this forum.
That being said these are the questions I can never seem to get straight answers for.

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it? Any lesson we choose to take from it is necessarily 'picked and chose' based on modern standards.

Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. So all Jews are going to hell right?

The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right? They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

Not to even get into the creationism

you ask good questions. keep it up.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/22/2013 6:14:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it?

The Old Testament provides the theological and historical framework for the new testament.

Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. So all Jews are going to hell right?

Anybody who doesn't accept Jesus as their lord and savior will go to hell for their sins whether they are Jews or not.

The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right? They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

It depends on what you mean by that and who you talk to. A person can't be damned to hell before they exist because they haven't committed any sins yet. But there is a sense in which you could say people are damned to hell before they are born. If anybody at all will go to hell, then there is something true about the future, namely that "Person X will go to hell," and that is true even before they are born. In that sense, everybody who will actually go to hell was damned before they were born. But that is an odd way to speak of being damned.

It doesn't matter whether people had a way of hearing about Jesus because not hearing about Jesus doesn't excuse you from your sins, and God doesn't owe salvation to anyone.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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11/22/2013 6:17:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I was raised christian and never venture into this forum.
That being said these are the questions I can never seem to get straight answers for.

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it? Any lesson we choose to take from it is necessarily 'picked and chose' based on modern standards.

The Old Testament was written before Jesus' time and so doesn't contain any of his teachings. Interestingly enough, although it was entirely Jews who wrote the Old Testament, it was entirely Romans who "picked and chose" what parts of it to keep. The Council of Nicea was sponsored by Emperor Constantine and attended by all the Catholic Bishops of the time. I would dare to say that they 'picked and chose' whichever parts suited them and their claims to power. That does not, however, negate whatever truth remains in the parts that were kept.

Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. So all Jews are going to hell right?

Well, no... For one thing, many Jews have converted to Christianity. For another, Jesus only said that "No one goes to the Father but by me." I always took that to mean that people must emulate his teachings and actions, not claim blind faith and fealty.

The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right? They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

No again, for the same reason. I think the best thing Jesus ever did according to the Bible was to simplify the whole thing to just two rules: love God and love all people. If the native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. all do this then they will be just fine.

Not to even get into the creationism

It's just as well that you don't. That could lead to pages of mindless argument.
lewis20
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11/22/2013 6:18:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:14:18 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it?

The Old Testament provides the theological and historical framework for the new testament.

So no rules in the Old Testament, not in the new Testament should be obeyed right? Because if it's not all absolute truth, then by definition anything you quote or abide by of the Old Testament is something you picked and chose.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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11/22/2013 6:19:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 5:54:07 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I was raised christian and never venture into this forum.
That being said these are the questions I can never seem to get straight answers for.

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it? Any lesson we choose to take from it is necessarily 'picked and chose' based on modern standards.

Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. So all Jews are going to hell right?

The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right? They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

Not to even get into the creationism

you ask good questions. keep it up.

LOL His "givens" or preliminaries are all wrong; thus, the questions based upon them are destined to be wrong. The Jews are no more God's chosen people now than anybody else. PGA answered the statements/questions correctly with the exception of his AD 70 theology. The same principles hold.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
lewis20
Posts: 5,093
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11/22/2013 6:21:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:17:50 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I was raised christian and never venture into this forum.
That being said these are the questions I can never seem to get straight answers for.

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it? Any lesson we choose to take from it is necessarily 'picked and chose' based on modern standards.

The Old Testament was written before Jesus' time and so doesn't contain any of his teachings. Interestingly enough, although it was entirely Jews who wrote the Old Testament, it was entirely Romans who "picked and chose" what parts of it to keep. The Council of Nicea was sponsored by Emperor Constantine and attended by all the Catholic Bishops of the time. I would dare to say that they 'picked and chose' whichever parts suited them and their claims to power. That does not, however, negate whatever truth remains in the parts that were kept.

Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. So all Jews are going to hell right?

Well, no... For one thing, many Jews have converted to Christianity. For another, Jesus only said that "No one goes to the Father but by me." I always took that to mean that people must emulate his teachings and actions, not claim blind faith and fealty.

Since we are in the reglious forum I'm assuming the term Jews refers to adherents of the religion.
Also 'you took it as'? I was always under the assumption that believing in Jesus Christ was the main point around which all of Christianity is based. Not open to interpretation.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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11/22/2013 6:23:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:19:13 PM, annanicole wrote:
LOL His "givens" or preliminaries are all wrong; thus, the questions based upon them are destined to be wrong. The Jews are no more God's chosen people now than anybody else. PGA answered the statements/questions correctly with the exception of his AD 70 theology. The same principles hold.

I was always taught the Jews were still Gods chosen people, was the justification for the Christians support of Israel.
But as I understand it now the Jews are no more God's people than Muslims? So we really shouldn't favor Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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11/22/2013 6:25:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:17:50 PM, Idealist wrote:
The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right? They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

No again, for the same reason. I think the best thing Jesus ever did according to the Bible was to simplify the whole thing to just two rules: love God and love all people. If the native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. all do this then they will be just fine.

Doesn't that necessarily mean Jesus lied when he said the only way to heaven was through him?
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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11/22/2013 6:28:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:14:18 PM, philochristos wrote:
It depends on what you mean by that and who you talk to. A person can't be damned to hell before they exist because they haven't committed any sins yet. But there is a sense in which you could say people are damned to hell before they are born. If anybody at all will go to hell, then there is something true about the future, namely that "Person X will go to hell," and that is true even before they are born. In that sense, everybody who will actually go to hell was damned before they were born. But that is an odd way to speak of being damned.

It doesn't matter whether people had a way of hearing about Jesus because not hearing about Jesus doesn't excuse you from your sins, and God doesn't owe salvation to anyone.

So the Indians who sinned, which was nearly all of them, went to hell and once they sinned had no possibly way into heaven because there was no possible way for them to know Jesus.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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11/22/2013 6:28:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:23:58 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:19:13 PM, annanicole wrote:
LOL His "givens" or preliminaries are all wrong; thus, the questions based upon them are destined to be wrong. The Jews are no more God's chosen people now than anybody else. PGA answered the statements/questions correctly with the exception of his AD 70 theology. The same principles hold.

I was always taught the Jews were still Gods chosen people, was the justification for the Christians support of Israel.
But as I understand it now the Jews are no more God's people than Muslims? So we really shouldn't favor Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Absolutely not! Worst mistake the United States ever made.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
lewis20
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11/22/2013 6:31:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:28:16 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:23:58 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:19:13 PM, annanicole wrote:
LOL His "givens" or preliminaries are all wrong; thus, the questions based upon them are destined to be wrong. The Jews are no more God's chosen people now than anybody else. PGA answered the statements/questions correctly with the exception of his AD 70 theology. The same principles hold.

I was always taught the Jews were still Gods chosen people, was the justification for the Christians support of Israel.
But as I understand it now the Jews are no more God's people than Muslims? So we really shouldn't favor Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Absolutely not! Worst mistake the United States ever made.

All the Christians in my extended family have always told me we need to support the Jews in Israel.
They also tell me all the muslims are invading, trying to convert everyone and pure evil.
Part of the reason I never I'll never respect their 'Christianity'
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
annanicole
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11/22/2013 6:33:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:31:10 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:28:16 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:23:58 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:19:13 PM, annanicole wrote:
LOL His "givens" or preliminaries are all wrong; thus, the questions based upon them are destined to be wrong. The Jews are no more God's chosen people now than anybody else. PGA answered the statements/questions correctly with the exception of his AD 70 theology. The same principles hold.

I was always taught the Jews were still Gods chosen people, was the justification for the Christians support of Israel.
But as I understand it now the Jews are no more God's people than Muslims? So we really shouldn't favor Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Absolutely not! Worst mistake the United States ever made.

All the Christians in my extended family have always told me we need to support the Jews in Israel.
They also tell me all the muslims are invading, trying to convert everyone and pure evil.
Part of the reason I never I'll never respect their 'Christianity'

Then I'd bet the bank that your family believes in a literal 1,000-year future reign of Christ over there in Jerusalem, which (depending on whose theory one hears) involves the Jews.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
lewis20
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11/22/2013 6:34:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 12:46:00 PM, PGA wrote:
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
The native Americans, Mayans, Aztecs etc. were all damned to hell before they were even born right? They had no way of ever hearing about Jesus but that doesn"t matter?

It appears that was the case, but I do not speak for God on this point, other that to say that Jesus is necessary for salvation. The Bible makes it plain that we are all guilty before God, everyone has sinned and done what is wrong in God's eyes (except of course the Son - it all points to Him). God is just in punishing wrong. If He let wrongful actions go unpunished how could He be considered just or good?

Good thin about the Bible is that you don't have to speak for God.

I don't think I could ever be on board with a God who would allow all those people to be damned to hell. Even if he did 'give them a chance to live perfect lives'
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
lewis20
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11/22/2013 6:38:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:33:23 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:31:10 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:28:16 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:23:58 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:19:13 PM, annanicole wrote:
LOL His "givens" or preliminaries are all wrong; thus, the questions based upon them are destined to be wrong. The Jews are no more God's chosen people now than anybody else. PGA answered the statements/questions correctly with the exception of his AD 70 theology. The same principles hold.

I was always taught the Jews were still Gods chosen people, was the justification for the Christians support of Israel.
But as I understand it now the Jews are no more God's people than Muslims? So we really shouldn't favor Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Absolutely not! Worst mistake the United States ever made.

All the Christians in my extended family have always told me we need to support the Jews in Israel.
They also tell me all the muslims are invading, trying to convert everyone and pure evil.
Part of the reason I never I'll never respect their 'Christianity'

Then I'd bet the bank that your family believes in a literal 1,000-year future reign of Christ over there in Jerusalem, which (depending on whose theory one hears) involves the Jews.

They don't have a strong grasp on biblical history, yet it'd probably kill them if they knew I didn't think the earth was 6000 years old, that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt and that we all descended from one incestuous family whose names happened to be remembered.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Idealist
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11/22/2013 6:47:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:21:57 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:17:50 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 11/22/2013 12:37:18 AM, lewis20 wrote:
I was raised christian and never venture into this forum.
That being said these are the questions I can never seem to get straight answers for.

Why do we read the old testament if we don't adhere to it and know that god got a lot wrong in it? Any lesson we choose to take from it is necessarily 'picked and chose' based on modern standards.

The Old Testament was written before Jesus' time and so doesn't contain any of his teachings. Interestingly enough, although it was entirely Jews who wrote the Old Testament, it was entirely Romans who "picked and chose" what parts of it to keep. The Council of Nicea was sponsored by Emperor Constantine and attended by all the Catholic Bishops of the time. I would dare to say that they 'picked and chose' whichever parts suited them and their claims to power. That does not, however, negate whatever truth remains in the parts that were kept.

Jews are Gods chosen people, but the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus. So all Jews are going to hell right?

Well, no... For one thing, many Jews have converted to Christianity. For another, Jesus only said that "No one goes to the Father but by me." I always took that to mean that people must emulate his teachings and actions, not claim blind faith and fealty.

Since we are in the reglious forum I'm assuming the term Jews refers to adherents of the religion.

The "Jewish" faith is Judaism.

Also 'you took it as'? I was always under the assumption that believing in Jesus Christ was the main point around which all of Christianity is based. Not open to interpretation.

Why? Why can't everyone think for themselves? If you really start looking-around, I think you will quickly find that there are more opinions on the nature of the Bible than there are hairs on your head. :)
airmax1227
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11/22/2013 6:49:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:23:58 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:19:13 PM, annanicole wrote:
LOL His "givens" or preliminaries are all wrong; thus, the questions based upon them are destined to be wrong. The Jews are no more God's chosen people now than anybody else. PGA answered the statements/questions correctly with the exception of his AD 70 theology. The same principles hold.

I was always taught the Jews were still Gods chosen people, was the justification for the Christians support of Israel.
But as I understand it now the Jews are no more God's people than Muslims? So we really shouldn't favor Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"Gods chosen people" is a fairly ambiguous term to use and doesn't have very much meaning unto itself. As a Jew it's not something I've ever claimed nor does that term have any meaning to me. If one wants to take some meaning out of it, from my perspective (and this is only my perspective as a Jew and I'm not backing it up with anything theological/biblical) the best way to understand the term in some way not excessively ethnocentric, is to say that the Jews are chosen by god in the sense that the Jews have chosen god, at least the God of the OT. So Jews are "gods chosen people" only to the extent that they are the only ones who believe exclusively in the OT.

In this sense everyone is "the chosen people" of whatever version of god they choose to believe in. Christians are now "gods chosen people" of the version of god they believe in.

Any support of Israel that is based on this is a poor reason to support it, and I'd doubt that western support of Israel is entirely based on this idea. Though certainly it does have some effect on the perspective of Christians and their support of Israel and the culture in general. But again, I'd say any support of Israel that is based on anything theological is a poor reason to support Israel.
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lewis20
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11/22/2013 6:52:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:47:47 PM, Idealist wrote:
The "Jewish" faith is Judaism.

Yes and those who adhere to Judaism are referred to as 'Jews'
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler
Idealist
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11/22/2013 6:54:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:23:58 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:19:13 PM, annanicole wrote:
LOL His "givens" or preliminaries are all wrong; thus, the questions based upon them are destined to be wrong. The Jews are no more God's chosen people now than anybody else. PGA answered the statements/questions correctly with the exception of his AD 70 theology. The same principles hold.

I was always taught the Jews were still Gods chosen people, was the justification for the Christians support of Israel.
But as I understand it now the Jews are no more God's people than Muslims? So we really shouldn't favor Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

However the past may be interpreted, Israel is our staunchest ally in the Middle East, a truly democratic country in a sea of tyrannical governments and religious monarchies. As a country it is considered to be quite secular. The religious-right has lost most of its power, as recent events have made clear.
annanicole
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11/22/2013 6:58:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:38:24 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:33:23 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:31:10 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:28:16 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:23:58 PM, lewis20 wrote:
At 11/22/2013 6:19:13 PM, annanicole wrote:
LOL His "givens" or preliminaries are all wrong; thus, the questions based upon them are destined to be wrong. The Jews are no more God's chosen people now than anybody else. PGA answered the statements/questions correctly with the exception of his AD 70 theology. The same principles hold.

I was always taught the Jews were still Gods chosen people, was the justification for the Christians support of Israel.
But as I understand it now the Jews are no more God's people than Muslims? So we really shouldn't favor Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Absolutely not! Worst mistake the United States ever made.

All the Christians in my extended family have always told me we need to support the Jews in Israel.
They also tell me all the muslims are invading, trying to convert everyone and pure evil.
Part of the reason I never I'll never respect their 'Christianity'

Then I'd bet the bank that your family believes in a literal 1,000-year future reign of Christ over there in Jerusalem, which (depending on whose theory one hears) involves the Jews.

They don't have a strong grasp on biblical history, yet it'd probably kill them if they knew I didn't think the earth was 6000 years old, that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt and that we all descended from one incestuous family whose names happened to be remembered.

Both the Arabs and the Israelites are descendents of Abraham - the former through Hagar, the latter through Sarah. Abraham was given a land promise by God back in Genesis, and both parties claim a right to it. The problem is not so much "Jew versus Muslim" as it is "Jew versus Arab". The fact that the Arabs are Muslim is just a complicating factor, a side note.

And what they don't have (a strong grasp on biblical history, in your words) is precisely what they need. The background of the troubled Middle East is given in the Bible, and one would do well to study it whether he actually believes in the Bible or not.

The whole she-bang traces back to Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Isaac, and Ishmael. The Arabs are descendants of Abraham through Ishmael, the firstborn. The Jews are children of Abraham through Isaac. There's the problem. Both claim the land.

If you'd like to hear it discussed sometime as accurately as I believe possible, here is a link. It is, unfortunately, about 30 minutes long - but it hits the nail on the head.

http://www.eecc.org...
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
lewis20
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11/22/2013 7:00:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/22/2013 6:54:56 PM, Idealist wrote:
However the past may be interpreted, Israel is our staunchest ally in the Middle East, a truly democratic country in a sea of tyrannical governments and religious monarchies. As a country it is considered to be quite secular. The religious-right has lost most of its power, as recent events have made clear.

Suadi Arabia is a tyrannical religious monarchy, yet no one seems to object to that partnership.

Israel being democratic shouldn't give it free reign to do whatever it wants. Assassinate civilians, expand settlements, occupy lands, not signing the nuclear non proliferation treaty etc.
"If you are a racist I will attack you with the north"- Abraham Lincoln

"Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" - Leviticus 19 19

"War is a racket" - Smedley Butler