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The Free-Will Defense

phantom
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11/25/2013 1:35:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

Depends how you form it. If you claim that if God were to eliminate evil from the world he would have to eliminate moral free-will, then it's flawed since there would still be varying degrees of moral goodness/neutrality that a person could choose from. In other words, while people would have no choice but to follow what they're obligated to do, they would still have choices regarding whether they go beyond their obligations. They could choose to do something morally neutral, or to do something actually good that they weren't necessarily obligated to do. Moral free-will would still be retained in that sense.

I don't see the PoE as that big a problem though.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Rational_Thinker9119
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11/25/2013 3:33:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/25/2013 1:35:23 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

Depends how you form it. If you claim that if God were to eliminate evil from the world he would have to eliminate moral free-will, then it's flawed since there would still be varying degrees of moral goodness/neutrality that a person could choose from. In other words, while people would have no choice but to follow what they're obligated to do, they would still have choices regarding whether they go beyond their obligations. They could choose to do something morally neutral, or to do something actually good that they weren't necessarily obligated to do. Moral free-will would still be retained in that sense.

Yes, the free-will defense is not convincing. We could still have internal and external freedom even if we were logically determined for only good actions. In fact, this would be intrinsically more good as far as the Christian worldview is concerned, because if God exists, he would be a being who is logically determined for good (in his case, because of omnibenevolence), but still has external and internal freedom. The theist cannot say it is better to be logically free to commit evil like we are, because If it wasn't better to be logically determined for good, then God would be logically free to commit evil (which he is not).


I don't see the PoE as that big a problem though.

I think it is a pretty big problem if you hold that God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent. However, if some sort of God exists, who says he would have to have those qualities? The PoE could just be tearing down an imaginary God, and the real God is nothing like that (assuming one exists) for all we know.
Lordgrae
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11/25/2013 5:56:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

How can you even prove free will exists? How can you prove we are not just slaves to stimuli and genetics and hormones? How can I prove that me saying this isn't just a reaction formed from my brain replaying cause and effect + my hormones and genetics?

If they try to use god to prove free will, then you have them in a circular argument.
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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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11/25/2013 9:05:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/25/2013 5:56:14 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

How can you even prove free will exists? How can you prove we are not just slaves to stimuli and genetics and hormones? How can I prove that me saying this isn't just a reaction formed from my brain replaying cause and effect + my hormones and genetics?

Moral free-will doesn't really have to do with determinism. In the context of this argument, it's essentially just the ability to do good vs evil, which anyone has regardless of whether hard determinism is true or not.


If they try to use god to prove free will, then you have them in a circular argument.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
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11/25/2013 9:29:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/25/2013 3:33:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:


I don't see the PoE as that big a problem though.

I think it is a pretty big problem if you hold that God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent. However, if some sort of God exists, who says he would have to have those qualities? The PoE could just be tearing down an imaginary God, and the real God is nothing like that (assuming one exists) for all we know.

Well it obviously wouldn't refute any deistic type of god but that's not what I'm talking about. I don't think it's a great argument against the classical conception of God, unless combined with other arguments/presuppositions, like hell or annihilationism. The reasons I don't think it's a good argument could be boiled down to two premises. First, that it's plausible to believe there might be an overall greater good for all this evil, and second, that God has the ability to deal out a sort of "recompense" for those who suffered the evil in this world, even if they themselves were evil. There's a whole other moral framework underlying it regarding moral responsibility and punishment, but I don't want to go there now.

Regarding the first point, that it's plausible to believe there might be an overall greater good for all the evil in the world, I don't pretend to be able to conjure up any exact explanations. I do, however, believe it's more rational to assume there could conceivably be some. Or at the very least, there's is no way we could possibly prove there are not. The reasons being because we have such limited knowledge of the cosmos, God and reality, and perhaps morality, as well as our being confined to a strictly human perspective. I don't see how we could possibly look at things from God's perspective. The most supreme possible being is well out of our realm of imagination. It's inconceivable to say we can see things from his perspective. That severely limits our ability to determine whether such a being could have some sort of objective that might have to include the existence of evil. Furthermore, perhaps our not being able to conceive of that objective is essential to it's purpose.

The second point is also important to me. It's a legitimate argument to question the morality of God allowing his beings to suffer just for some other purpose. I, however, believe that the existence of an afterlife, and God's ability to recompense those who suffered in it, would well atone for all the evil suffered. All you have to do is answer the question, "could God make the most miserable persons life overall worth living in the afterlife"? I think that's an easy yes. Whatever harm a person suffered in this world, God could easily counteract with twice as much joy in the next one. Of course, you might ask why God would let them suffer in the first place, but that just goes back to me first point.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Rational_Thinker9119
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11/25/2013 9:55:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/25/2013 9:29:32 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/25/2013 3:33:17 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:


I don't see the PoE as that big a problem though.

I think it is a pretty big problem if you hold that God is omnipotent and omnibenevolent. However, if some sort of God exists, who says he would have to have those qualities? The PoE could just be tearing down an imaginary God, and the real God is nothing like that (assuming one exists) for all we know.

It's plausible to believe there might be an overall greater good for all this evil

This argument forgets that God is omnipotent. Lets say that God allows x evil because it entails y amount of goodness; he could get y amount of goodness without x. There doesn't seem to be any contradiction in that (and God can do anything logically possible), so I find the idea that an omnibenevolent God would allow evil implausible.

God has the ability to deal out a sort of "recompense" for those who suffered the evil in this world, even if they themselves were evil.

Yes, but this goes back to the problem I mentioned. If the recompensation equates to y goodness, why can't God get it without the x evil? There doesn't seem to be any necessitating link between to two; making it unreasonable to think he would allow it. If God is all powerful, he doesn't need evil to get good; he can have all the good he wants without any evil.

There's is no way we could possibly prove there are not

Well, an omnibenevolent being either:

(i) Has the property of necessarily being the necessary condition for only good
(ii) Has the property of possible being the necessary condition for evil

To claim it is plausible that God might have some reason to allow evil, you have to say God has (ii) over (i). That's prima facie absurd. I think that even a 6th grader would say that an omnibenevolent would have (i) if posed with that question is it so obvious (an omnibenevolent God cannot have both).

I don't see how we could possibly look at things from God's perspective.

All we need to do is see that evil isn't consistent with his nature.

The most supreme possible being is well out of our realm of imagination

Then you cannot say he is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, or omniscient (as you would be imagining God with such attributes). Thus, there is nothing for the PoE to attack.

That severely limits our ability to determine whether such a being could have some sort of objective that might have to include the existence of evil.

As I said, then you have to say that the most good being possible has (ii) instead of (i). You don't find that laughable?

Whatever harm a person suffered in this world, God could easily counteract with twice as much joy in the next one. Of course, you might ask why God would let them suffer in the first place, but that just goes back to me first point.

But the suffering didn't have to happen at all. So, God would still not be omnibenevolent, as a truly omnibenevolent/ omnipotent being would/could get that same amount of goodness without the suffering (which undeniable was not good for that person for that amount of time, no matter how much they forget about it due to compensation). Why have the suffering at all? There doesn't seem to be anything logically necessary about it. Thus, the evil we see seems to contradict God's nature.
Rational_Thinker9119
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11/25/2013 10:00:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
*(i) Has the property of necessarily being the necessary condition for only good
(ii) Has the property of possibly being the necessary condition for evil
Rational_Thinker9119
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11/25/2013 10:09:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
To reject the PoE, you have to believe that the most perfectly good being possible has the property of possibly being the necessary condition for evil, but necessarily does not have the property of being the necessary condition for only good. If that is not absolutely absurd; nothing is.
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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11/25/2013 10:25:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I am not sure what free-will actually is. Currently, I am convinced that there are far too many factors beyond our control that directly affect our 'brain chemistry'.
MadCornishBiker
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11/26/2013 4:24:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

it isn't defence, is simply a statement of fact.

The "defence" against the false accusations that come from PoE is simply one of justice meaning it was inevitable.

Why is any defence needed for something which was simply the result of applying true and visible justice to event that could not be prevented or countered any other way with any true level of Justice and lasting effect?

It is those who claim there was any other way that need to defend their position, since all the evidence points to their being in error.

To claim that any other course of action would satisfy bot true justice and act as a perfect cure,defies reason and logic, and is simply a case of fabricating reasons for complaint.

It really is a simple as that. If there had been a course which was more beneficial to his creation in the long term, God would have taken it.
MadCornishBiker
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11/26/2013 4:36:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/25/2013 1:35:23 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

Depends how you form it. If you claim that if God were to eliminate evil from the world he would have to eliminate moral free-will, then it's flawed since there would still be varying degrees of moral goodness/neutrality that a person could choose from. In other words, while people would have no choice but to follow what they're obligated to do, they would still have choices regarding whether they go beyond their obligations. They could choose to do something morally neutral, or to do something actually good that they weren't necessarily obligated to do. Moral free-will would still be retained in that sense.

I don't see the PoE as that big a problem though.

It isn't a long term problem though because once sufficient evidence has been gathered that Satan's challenge is unsustainable, under any conditions, has been gathered evil will no longer be permitted, and those who chose to live the right way, for the benefit of all humanity rather than elfish advantage, will benefit whilst those who refuse to will no longer be allowed to interfere with them.

However human suffering,wherever it occurs, an to whoever, should concern us all, especially in the comparatively rich and greedy west.

Incidentally in scriptural terms, greed means the desire for more than is needed to sustain life, in other words "sustenance and covering", and any tools necessary to obtain these necessary things.

1 Timothy 6:6-8
6 To be sure, it is a means of great gain, [this] godly devotion along with self-sufficiency. 7 For we have brought nothing into the world, and neither can we carry anything out. 8 So, having sustenance and covering, we shall be content with these things.

That is the Christian principle that applies to all who wish to follow Christ.
annanicole
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11/26/2013 5:06:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
MCB: "It isn't a long term problem though because once sufficient evidence has been gathered that Satan's challenge is unsustainable"

Anna: LMAO. To this guy, the entire history of man is just one big court case.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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11/26/2013 5:40:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 5:06:19 AM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "It isn't a long term problem though because once sufficient evidence has been gathered that Satan's challenge is unsustainable"

Anna: LMAO. To this guy, the entire history of man is just one big court case.

The court case comes with the judgement that Christ so frequently spoke of. You cannot have a court case without evidence to present, and this is simply the evidence gathering period.

Matthew 10:15
15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day than for that city.

Where is the evidence to come from which Christ will present on that day?

Don't forget for Justice to be real it not only has to be done, but be seen to be done, and that requires evidence that al can see, hence the bible record.

I can back that up from scripture. Can you provide scripture to argue against it?

Of course you can't. No such scripture exists.

Laugh all you like, it is the only recourse you have, but God will have the last one since you refuse to listen to his message.
annanicole
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11/26/2013 6:27:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 5:40:40 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/26/2013 5:06:19 AM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "It isn't a long term problem though because once sufficient evidence has been gathered that Satan's challenge is unsustainable"

Anna: LMAO. To this guy, the entire history of man is just one big court case.

The court case comes with the judgement that Christ so frequently spoke of. You cannot have a court case without evidence to present, and this is simply the evidence gathering period.

Matthew 10:15
15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day than for that city.

Where is the evidence to come from which Christ will present on that day?

Don't forget for Justice to be real it not only has to be done, but be seen to be done, and that requires evidence that al can see, hence the bible record.

I can back that up from scripture. Can you provide scripture to argue against it?

Of course you can't. No such scripture exists.

Laugh all you like, it is the only recourse you have, but God will have the last one since you refuse to listen to his message.

MCB: "I can back that up from scripture. Can you provide scripture to argue against it?"

Anna: Back it up, then. Back up your statement that Satan presented a challenge to God that took thousands of years for a judgement. I do not mean your inferences. I do not mean your conclusions. I mean the scriptures that teach it.

While you're at it, present your evidence for this two-tiered system of salvation in which only 144,000 go to heaven - and again, I do not mean your literalist interpretation of figurative language in Revelation. I mean cold hard facts.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MadCornishBiker
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11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 6:27:57 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/26/2013 5:40:40 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/26/2013 5:06:19 AM, annanicole wrote:
MCB: "It isn't a long term problem though because once sufficient evidence has been gathered that Satan's challenge is unsustainable"

Anna: LMAO. To this guy, the entire history of man is just one big court case.

The court case comes with the judgement that Christ so frequently spoke of. You cannot have a court case without evidence to present, and this is simply the evidence gathering period.

Matthew 10:15
15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on Judgment Day than for that city.

Where is the evidence to come from which Christ will present on that day?

Don't forget for Justice to be real it not only has to be done, but be seen to be done, and that requires evidence that al can see, hence the bible record.

I can back that up from scripture. Can you provide scripture to argue against it?

Of course you can't. No such scripture exists.

Laugh all you like, it is the only recourse you have, but God will have the last one since you refuse to listen to his message.


MCB: "I can back that up from scripture. Can you provide scripture to argue against it?"

Anna: Back it up, then. Back up your statement that Satan presented a challenge to God that took thousands of years for a judgement. I do not mean your inferences. I do not mean your conclusions. I mean the scriptures that teach it.

While you're at it, present your evidence for this two-tiered system of salvation in which only 144,000 go to heaven - and again, I do not mean your literalist interpretation of figurative language in Revelation. I mean cold hard facts.

I have done many times.

The plan was simple and requires no interpretation:

Genesis 1:26-31
26 Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth." 27 And God went on to create the man in his image, in God"s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28 Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: "Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth+ and subdue it, and have in subjection+ the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving on the earth."
29 Then God said: "Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you. 30 And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food." And it was so.
31 After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good.+ And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

That's the plan, pure and simple, and we are so far from it today. Do you think God incapable of making any changes that are necessary to bring us back to that?

The challenge was simple, and is detailed in Job 2.

Job 2: 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: "Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face."
6 Then Jehovah said to Satan: "Look! He is in your hand! Only do not take his life!" 7 So Satan went out from the presence of Jehovah and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

As it as with Job, so i is with al humanity. Satan is still trying to prove that people will serve God if their very life is endangered.

Of course, so far he is only dealing with imperfect humans who, as Paul points out, Have inherited sin and death from Adam.

Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.

That makes life a lot easier for Satan to achieve his aim, despite is only having 3 score years and 10 to wok on us.

How will he fare when dealing with other humans, a planet full of them, turned to the original state of Adam, with the possibility of eternal life once more in view? Humans who have much more to lose as did Adam?

So far Satan has only had Adam and Christ to work on, and he only had Christ for 3.5 years.

The resurrection, and the final test are the only ways to provide evidence for that, hence the final test at:

Revelation 20:7-10
7 Now as soon as the 1,000 years have ended, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the whole earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and consumed them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

That s plain enough and needs no interpretation or rationalisation.

Of course you will deny it, just as you deny so much scripture, but that is your loss and the loss of all who take your word for it.

OK, your turn, now you present your scriptural evidence with any interpretation or rationalisation, as I have above.

Put up or shut up.
Composer
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11/26/2013 8:25:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
31 After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good.+ And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
So according to your foolishness this acclaimed god saw your Master Satan and exclaimed " It was ' Very good? "

At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
That's the plan, pure and simple, and we are so far from it today. Do you think God incapable of making any changes that are necessary to bring us back to that?
ALL Supernatural god(s) are 100% human concepts nothing more, hence literally capable of zero!

At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
The challenge was simple, and is detailed in Job 2.

Job 2: 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: "Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face."
6 Then Jehovah said to Satan: "Look! He is in your hand! Only do not take his life!" 7 So Satan went out from the presence of Jehovah and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.
More of your BS! exposed!

a. God does not tolerate evil: "Evil may not sojourn with thee." (Psa. 5:4, 5, R.S.V.); "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity . . ." (Hab. 1:13). (wrestedscriptures.com)

Hence the Story book confirms this adversary couldn't have been a naughty spirit angel being, speaking to Story book god!


4. Job never attributed his afflictions to a rebel angel. His declaration was simply: "The hand of God hath touched me". (Job 19:21 cf. 2:10). Even Job's brethren, sisters and acquaintances acknowledged that the evil was brought upon Job by the LORD: "they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him." (Job 42:11). (wrestedscriptures.com)

Your entire evidence that your supposed Satan is a literal Supernatural angel being remains a constant zero!

Again try using the Botchtower E.D to prove your Satan ideology and as always you run for cover drivelling pathetic excuses for your ideological cowardice & failures!

YOU & your supposed gods & supposed h-s are impotent against moi!
MadCornishBiker
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11/26/2013 8:51:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 8:25:18 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
31 After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good.+ And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
So according to your foolishness this acclaimed god saw your Master Satan and exclaimed " It was ' Very good? "


At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
That's the plan, pure and simple, and we are so far from it today. Do you think God incapable of making any changes that are necessary to bring us back to that?
ALL Supernatural god(s) are 100% human concepts nothing more, hence literally capable of zero!

At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
The challenge was simple, and is detailed in Job 2.

Job 2: 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: "Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face."
6 Then Jehovah said to Satan: "Look! He is in your hand! Only do not take his life!" 7 So Satan went out from the presence of Jehovah and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.
More of your BS! exposed!

a. God does not tolerate evil: "Evil may not sojourn with thee." (Psa. 5:4, 5, R.S.V.); "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity . . ." (Hab. 1:13). (wrestedscriptures.com)

Hence the Story book confirms this adversary couldn't have been a naughty spirit angel being, speaking to Story book god!


4. Job never attributed his afflictions to a rebel angel. His declaration was simply: "The hand of God hath touched me". (Job 19:21 cf. 2:10). Even Job's brethren, sisters and acquaintances acknowledged that the evil was brought upon Job by the LORD: "they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him." (Job 42:11). (wrestedscriptures.com)

Your entire evidence that your supposed Satan is a literal Supernatural angel being remains a constant zero!

Again try using the Botchtower E.D to prove your Satan ideology and as always you run for cover drivelling pathetic excuses for your ideological cowardice & failures!

YOU & your supposed gods & supposed h-s are impotent against moi!


You never learn do you.

I use,and always will use, scripture to prove everything I teach since in the end there is no other authority, and any who depart from it have no authority whatever.

The time will come, and soon,when God's permission of evil, out of necessity will end.

You areas good as your boss, Satan, at quoting scripture and misapplying it, but it no more works with me than it did with Jesus, because like Jesus I rely on him 100%.
philochristos
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11/26/2013 12:19:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/25/2013 5:56:14 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

How can you even prove free will exists?

While the free will theodicy depends on there actually being free will, the free will defense does not. All that's necessary for the free will defense to go through is for free will to be possible. It doesn't need to be proved.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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11/26/2013 12:27:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 8:51:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/26/2013 8:25:18 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
31 After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good.+ And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
So according to your foolishness this acclaimed god saw your Master Satan and exclaimed " It was ' Very good? "


At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
That's the plan, pure and simple, and we are so far from it today. Do you think God incapable of making any changes that are necessary to bring us back to that?
ALL Supernatural god(s) are 100% human concepts nothing more, hence literally capable of zero!

At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
The challenge was simple, and is detailed in Job 2.

Job 2: 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: "Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face."
6 Then Jehovah said to Satan: "Look! He is in your hand! Only do not take his life!" 7 So Satan went out from the presence of Jehovah and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.
More of your BS! exposed!

a. God does not tolerate evil: "Evil may not sojourn with thee." (Psa. 5:4, 5, R.S.V.); "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity . . ." (Hab. 1:13). (wrestedscriptures.com)

Hence the Story book confirms this adversary couldn't have been a naughty spirit angel being, speaking to Story book god!


4. Job never attributed his afflictions to a rebel angel. His declaration was simply: "The hand of God hath touched me". (Job 19:21 cf. 2:10). Even Job's brethren, sisters and acquaintances acknowledged that the evil was brought upon Job by the LORD: "they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him." (Job 42:11). (wrestedscriptures.com)

Your entire evidence that your supposed Satan is a literal Supernatural angel being remains a constant zero!

Again try using the Botchtower E.D to prove your Satan ideology and as always you run for cover drivelling pathetic excuses for your ideological cowardice & failures!

YOU & your supposed gods & supposed h-s are impotent against moi!


You never learn do you.

I use,and always will use, scripture to prove everything I teach since in the end there is no other authority, and any who depart from it have no authority whatever.

The time will come, and soon,when God's permission of evil, out of necessity will end.

You areas good as your boss, Satan, at quoting scripture and misapplying it, but it no more works with me than it did with Jesus, because like Jesus I rely on him 100%.

Evidence for your claim that he works for Satan? Please? I'm pretty sure that the atheist position on Satan is the same as the atheist position on god?

And why can you say the bible is the ultimate authority and quote it as evidence, but if I did the same of the Iliad, you would say that I am mad?

And I must say, ancient books are a pretty poor way for a intelligent being to communicate.

You are an atheist to all of the other non-Christian gods. I'll now claim your boss is Loki. Or perhaps Oranos., or Set, or any of the evil gods or spirits invented by man.

"Atheists just go one god further" - Richard Dawkins.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/26/2013 1:11:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 12:27:31 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 11/26/2013 8:51:55 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/26/2013 8:25:18 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
31 After that God saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good.+ And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
So according to your foolishness this acclaimed god saw your Master Satan and exclaimed " It was ' Very good? "


At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
That's the plan, pure and simple, and we are so far from it today. Do you think God incapable of making any changes that are necessary to bring us back to that?
ALL Supernatural god(s) are 100% human concepts nothing more, hence literally capable of zero!

At 11/26/2013 7:54:46 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
The challenge was simple, and is detailed in Job 2.

Job 2: 4 But Satan answered Jehovah: "Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. 5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face."
6 Then Jehovah said to Satan: "Look! He is in your hand! Only do not take his life!" 7 So Satan went out from the presence of Jehovah and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.
More of your BS! exposed!

a. God does not tolerate evil: "Evil may not sojourn with thee." (Psa. 5:4, 5, R.S.V.); "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity . . ." (Hab. 1:13). (wrestedscriptures.com)

Hence the Story book confirms this adversary couldn't have been a naughty spirit angel being, speaking to Story book god!


4. Job never attributed his afflictions to a rebel angel. His declaration was simply: "The hand of God hath touched me". (Job 19:21 cf. 2:10). Even Job's brethren, sisters and acquaintances acknowledged that the evil was brought upon Job by the LORD: "they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him." (Job 42:11). (wrestedscriptures.com)

Your entire evidence that your supposed Satan is a literal Supernatural angel being remains a constant zero!

Again try using the Botchtower E.D to prove your Satan ideology and as always you run for cover drivelling pathetic excuses for your ideological cowardice & failures!

YOU & your supposed gods & supposed h-s are impotent against moi!


You never learn do you.

I use,and always will use, scripture to prove everything I teach since in the end there is no other authority, and any who depart from it have no authority whatever.

The time will come, and soon,when God's permission of evil, out of necessity will end.

You areas good as your boss, Satan, at quoting scripture and misapplying it, but it no more works with me than it did with Jesus, because like Jesus I rely on him 100%.

Evidence for your claim that he works for Satan? Please? I'm pretty sure that the atheist position on Satan is the same as the atheist position on god?

Matthew 12:30 Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

There are only two sides in this issue, God's and Satan's. No matter what they wish to think, any who are not on God's side are on Satan's.

Basically there are two kids of sin. Sins of commission,and since of commission. Since Composer is not gathering on God's side,he is scattering on Satan's whether he wishes to be or not.


And why can you say the bible is the ultimate authority and quote it as evidence, but if I did the same of the Iliad, you would say that I am mad?

Because the bible is the only book which contains the internal evidence that it truly is God'sword.

Though there are some issues that have not yet been proven right, there is not one which has successfully and unarguably proven wrong. No other book can claim that without fear of honest contradiction. The weight of evidence for it's historic and prophetic accuracy is too great to be successfully argued against, the best any can do, and most do in fact do, is ignore the evidence.

Also the Bible, particularly the Hebrew Scriptures, was the sole source of the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. They trusted it's authority as God's word, so should all who follow them.

The lessons have not changed just because the world has moved away from them.


And I must say, ancient books are a pretty poor way for a intelligent being to communicate.

There is no more effective, or lasting and reliable way. After all, direct communication such as Adam had with God did no good, miracles had little effect on Ancient Israel, and even God's own son coming to the earth only worked with a minority.

Since the evidence necessary had to be gathered over millennia, many lifetimes, can you suggest a better way? I can't.


You are an atheist to all of the other non-Christian gods. I'll now claim your boss is Loki. Or perhaps Oranos., or Set, or any of the evil gods or spirits invented by man.

Since all hose God's are offshots of Satan's system, most likely each one is a demon, it is up to you to decide which side I am on, and chose whether to join God's side or stay on Satan's. Those are your only choices. My evidence is scripture.

As Christ would, and in fact did, say, if you judge that I teach according to scripture, listen to me, if not, walk away. You will be judged on our choice, and by Christ, not me. That the judgement we all have to face, so chose carefully and make sure that it is the right choice.


"Atheists just go one god further" - Richard Dawkins.

Yes, one god further away from the One True God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/26/2013 1:16:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 12:19:19 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/25/2013 5:56:14 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

How can you even prove free will exists?

While the free will theodicy depends on there actually being free will, the free will defense does not. All that's necessary for the free will defense to go through is for free will to be possible. It doesn't need to be proved.

If free will were not possible, there would be no-one on here arguing since choice of belief is just one part of free will.

Other parts are choosing what, if anything, to wear, whether to shave or not shave, even whether or not to get up and out of bed.

Free will is that entire basis of our existence as anything other than utter robots.

Every decision you make, however small or insignificant, conscious or subconscious, is only possible because of free will.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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11/26/2013 1:19:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 4:36:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/25/2013 1:35:23 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

Depends how you form it. If you claim that if God were to eliminate evil from the world he would have to eliminate moral free-will, then it's flawed since there would still be varying degrees of moral goodness/neutrality that a person could choose from. In other words, while people would have no choice but to follow what they're obligated to do, they would still have choices regarding whether they go beyond their obligations. They could choose to do something morally neutral, or to do something actually good that they weren't necessarily obligated to do. Moral free-will would still be retained in that sense.

I don't see the PoE as that big a problem though.

It isn't a long term problem though because once sufficient evidence has been gathered that Satan's challenge is unsustainable, under any conditions, has been gathered evil will no longer be permitted, and those who chose to live the right way, for the benefit of all humanity rather than elfish advantage, will benefit whilst those who refuse to will no longer be allowed to interfere with them.

However human suffering,wherever it occurs, an to whoever, should concern us all, especially in the comparatively rich and greedy west.

Incidentally in scriptural terms, greed means the desire for more than is needed to sustain life, in other words "sustenance and covering", and any tools necessary to obtain these necessary things.

1 Timothy 6:6-8
6 To be sure, it is a means of great gain, [this] godly devotion along with self-sufficiency. 7 For we have brought nothing into the world, and neither can we carry anything out. 8 So, having sustenance and covering, we shall be content with these things.

That is the Christian principle that applies to all who wish to follow Christ.

Since the flesh of man and the things of this world are the deceivers of man's spirit in the mind of our Creator, it's the flesh and this world that has to be destroyed during this first age to free the spirit of man. The invisible Christ, which contains God's eternal plan for His creation, will see to this destruction of all flesh on the Last Day of this first age.

Isaiah 66
15: "For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the stormwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16: For by fire will the LORD execute judgment, and by his sword, upon all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many.

2 Peter 3
10: But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.

Zephaniah 1
18: Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them on the day of the wrath of the LORD. In the fire of his jealous wrath, all the earth shall be consumed; for a full, yea, sudden end he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.

The flesh of man does not make a decision to save the spirit of man. It's already planned and created to happen by our invisible Creator, the King and Savior of ALL His people in the flesh ( Israel ) and of His spirit ( Jacob ).
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/26/2013 1:23:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 1:16:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

If free will were not possible, there would be no-one on here arguing since choice of belief is just one part of free will.

I don't see how that follows. Couldn't we be determined to argue and to have our beliefs?

Other parts are choosing what, if anything, to wear, whether to shave or not shave, even whether or not to get up and out of bed.

Why couldn't these things be determined?

Free will is that entire basis of our existence as anything other than utter robots.

Hmm. We might have a debate on our hands, but mind ye, it would be a philosophical debate.

Every decision you make, however small or insignificant, conscious or subconscious, is only possible because of free will.

Yes, I think we could argue over that. By "free will," I take it you mean the libertarian variety. I subscribe to the compatibilist view of free will which is really just another form of determinism. We compatibilists think it's morally relevant what is determining our choices, whether they be blind mechanistic causes or the condition of our own hearts, including the sum total of all our mental state, be they composed of desires, beliefs, inclinations, biases, preferences, etc.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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11/26/2013 1:23:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 1:16:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/26/2013 12:19:19 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/25/2013 5:56:14 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

How can you even prove free will exists?

While the free will theodicy depends on there actually being free will, the free will defense does not. All that's necessary for the free will defense to go through is for free will to be possible. It doesn't need to be proved.

If free will were not possible, there would be no-one on here arguing since choice of belief is just one part of free will.

Other parts are choosing what, if anything, to wear, whether to shave or not shave, even whether or not to get up and out of bed.

Free will is that entire basis of our existence as anything other than utter robots.

Every decision you make, however small or insignificant, conscious or subconscious, is only possible because of free will.

This is not really true.

If all the choices you have ever made were predetermined without your knowledge you wouldnt be able to tell. Lack of free will in this context is not necessarily about not being able to conciously chose but your choices have all been predetermined giving the illusion of free will.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/26/2013 1:29:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 1:23:21 PM, philochristos wrote:

Hmm. We might have a debate on our hands, but mind ye, it would be a philosophical debate.

You know, on second thought, MadCornishBiker, the debate doesn't have to be purely philosophical. We could have a theological debate on whether the Bible supports libertarian freedom or compatibilism.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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11/26/2013 1:35:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 1:16:29 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/26/2013 12:19:19 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/25/2013 5:56:14 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

How can you even prove free will exists?

While the free will theodicy depends on there actually being free will, the free will defense does not. All that's necessary for the free will defense to go through is for free will to be possible. It doesn't need to be proved.

If free will were not possible, there would be no-one on here arguing since choice of belief is just one part of free will.

Other parts are choosing what, if anything, to wear, whether to shave or not shave, even whether or not to get up and out of bed.

Free will is that entire basis of our existence as anything other than utter robots.

Every decision you make, however small or insignificant, conscious or subconscious, is only possible because of free will.

God is the Creator of the tower of Babel, which is a symbolic term that shows how God planned for man to be deceived with false gods ( buildings ) and stories ( religious ideas ) that resulted in the world we know today to totally confuse the minds of His people. Man wasn't created to create ideas. He was made to experience God's ideas ( thoughts ).

Not even Jesus created his own thoughts as he spoke them for his Father, the Creator of ALL things.

John 12
44: And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me.
45: And he who sees me sees him who sent me.
46: I have come as light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
47: If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48: He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.
49: For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.
50: And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me."
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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11/26/2013 1:37:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 4:36:13 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/25/2013 1:35:23 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

Depends how you form it. If you claim that if God were to eliminate evil from the world he would have to eliminate moral free-will, then it's flawed since there would still be varying degrees of moral goodness/neutrality that a person could choose from. In other words, while people would have no choice but to follow what they're obligated to do, they would still have choices regarding whether they go beyond their obligations. They could choose to do something morally neutral, or to do something actually good that they weren't necessarily obligated to do. Moral free-will would still be retained in that sense.

I don't see the PoE as that big a problem though.

It isn't a long term problem though because once sufficient evidence has been gathered that Satan's challenge is unsustainable, under any conditions, has been gathered evil will no longer be permitted, and those who chose to live the right way, for the benefit of all humanity rather than elfish advantage, will benefit whilst those who refuse to will no longer be allowed to interfere with them.

However human suffering,wherever it occurs, an to whoever, should concern us all, especially in the comparatively rich and greedy west.

Incidentally in scriptural terms, greed means the desire for more than is needed to sustain life, in other words "sustenance and covering", and any tools necessary to obtain these necessary things.

1 Timothy 6:6-8
6 To be sure, it is a means of great gain, [this] godly devotion along with self-sufficiency. 7 For we have brought nothing into the world, and neither can we carry anything out. 8 So, having sustenance and covering, we shall be content with these things.

That is the Christian principle that applies to all who wish to follow Christ.

This doesn't address the point that to say Satan exists, you have to say that the most perfect being possible has the property of possibly being the necessary condition for evil, and thus, necessarily lacks the property of being the necessary condition for only good. That is absurd, as what stems from God is just a reflection of his nature. If God has a necessarily good nature, then whatever stems from him is necessarily good. If not, then it becomes inexplicable why humans cannot create round squares.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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11/26/2013 1:38:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/26/2013 12:19:19 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/25/2013 5:56:14 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 11/25/2013 11:26:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Does it work against the PoE? Lets discuss...

How can you even prove free will exists?

While the free will theodicy depends on there actually being free will, the free will defense does not. All that's necessary for the free will defense to go through is for free will to be possible. It doesn't need to be proved.

I disagree. Even if free-will exists (let lone being possible), the free-will defense harms the PoE none.