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Why Would God Require Worship?

Kassandra
Posts: 47
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11/28/2013 3:08:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Okay. Suppose you are the King (or Queen) of the Universe. No limits on intellect, power or ability. Why (on Earth) would you require a bunch of semi-evolved hominids to kill cows and birds in your honor, to sing songs to you, and praise your virtues? What is worship anyway? What is the purpose?
Kassandra
Somecrap
Posts: 119
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11/28/2013 3:25:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 3:08:34 AM, Kassandra wrote:
Okay. Suppose you are the King (or Queen) of the Universe. No limits on intellect, power or ability. Why (on Earth) would you require a bunch of semi-evolved hominids to kill cows and birds in your honor, to sing songs to you, and praise your virtues? What is worship anyway? What is the purpose?

From islamic view: http://www.onislam.net...

Since Allah has created us as free beings and endowed us with reason and curiosity, we are able to raise questions like, "Why does Allah ask us to worship Him?"

And Allah the Merciful will forgive us for trying to find answers to such questions, seeking His own guidance.

Allah has also said:

{To Allah belong all things in heaven and earth: verily Allah is He (that is) free of all wants, worthy of all praise.} (Luqman 31:26)

This verse tells us that Allah has no needs; that He is completely independent and free. So it was not out of any necessity on his part that He created the humans and asked them to worship Him.

And yet He created them, because He is the Creator par excellence. And it is part of His creative plan that He created beings who can understand and appreciate His creative power, along with countless insensate beings and inanimate things.

Allah on His own chose to be Merciful, Bounteous, Loving and Forgiving. And all these are qualities that require that there be beings who should receive His mercy, His bounty, His love and His forgiveness.

Maybe that is why He created such beings; who out of their gratitude to Him are asked to willingly, and not out of compulsion, worship Him. This was never a need on the part of Allah.

Nor can any of His creation provide Him or help Him with anything. As all beings came into existence out of Allah's own will and whatever they possess by way of ability or power " and indeed their very existence " was given to them by Allah the Almighty Himself.

About our complete powerlessness apart from Allah's guidance and help, and about Allah's complete freedom from any reliance on any being, the Prophet has said:

"If the whole of mankind gathered to do some thing to help us, they could not help in anything which Allah had not already written for us. And if the whole of mankind gathered together to harm us, then they would not be able to harm with anything which Allah had not already written for us." (At-Tirmidhi)
In fact, the reason why Allah created us is answered by Allah Himself in the Quran:

{He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days"and His Throne was over the waters"that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct...} (Hud 11:7)

And again,
{He Who created death and life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.} (Al-Mulk 67:2)

From the above verses, we can understand that the purpose of creation, as well as the test He puts to us in this world, is that Allah wants to reward those who are good in motives and actions, and punish those who follow the evil one.

So, the picture is clear. Allah does not benefit from our good deeds. It is we ourselves who benefit.

Likewise, Allah is not harmed in any way by our wicked ways. It is we ourselves who face the consequences of our actions.

Allah says in the Quran what means:
{Who receives guidance, receives it for his own benefit: who goes astray does so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).} (Al-Israa' 17: 15)
And Allah knows best.
If u eat u excrete it cant be helped
Sleevedagger
Posts: 129
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11/28/2013 4:04:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Because religion is a man made fallacy designed to keep the poor in-line and the corrupt powerful. It's so people can have power over others by using threats of holy orders and Hell, nothing more.
Kassandra
Posts: 47
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11/28/2013 4:45:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If, there is a God, and I do not say that such is impossible, I have to wonder why god must necessarily be a "He" or a "Him". And why does "he" seem to suffer from so many human weaknesses and foibles? So, basically, god is just this really lonely Guy, who decided to create some creatures who don't possess the sense "God gave a Grape", but are, nevertheless given dominion over the Earth, and are supposed to make intelligent decisions and choices--chief among those choices is to spend time studying on, meditating on worshiping and praying to an entity who may or may not exist? This is not logical. An egomaniacal Queen or King would conceivably require constant adulation, but why would a god not be "above" such a requirement?
Kassandra
Kassandra
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11/28/2013 5:14:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 4:04:58 AM, Sleevedagger wrote:
Because religion is a man made fallacy designed to keep the poor in-line and the corrupt powerful. It's so people can have power over others by using threats of holy orders and Hell, nothing more.

I quite agree. I wonder why it is that so (seemingly) few are able to question, much less refute, the illusion(?). Seems that humans will go to amazing lengths to avoid logical thought . It puzzles me exceedingly that such is the case.
Kassandra
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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11/28/2013 5:30:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 5:14:00 AM, Kassandra wrote:
At 11/28/2013 4:04:58 AM, Sleevedagger wrote:
Because religion is a man made fallacy designed to keep the poor in-line and the corrupt powerful. It's so people can have power over others by using threats of holy orders and Hell, nothing more.

I quite agree. I wonder why it is that so (seemingly) few are able to question, much less refute, the illusion(?). Seems that humans will go to amazing lengths to avoid logical thought . It puzzles me exceedingly that such is the case.

It is an easily solved problem to your puzzle, because those claiming to believe, do so because their fundamental motivation is one of Selfishness, personal Greed & personal Lust for the possibility of Story book rewards! The biblical jebus lusted for these same Story book rewards for its unwarranted efforts also! (e.g. Deut. 24:16 & Ezek. 18:20)

Take away these promises of reward & they will scatter to the wind looking for another Cult to try to satisfy their Greed & Lust for personal reward!

This is easily provable should any claiming to be a believer wish to step forward?
Somecrap
Posts: 119
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11/28/2013 8:17:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 5:30:08 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/28/2013 5:14:00 AM, Kassandra wrote:
At 11/28/2013 4:04:58 AM, Sleevedagger wrote:
Because religion is a man made fallacy designed to keep the poor in-line and the corrupt powerful. It's so people can have power over others by using threats of holy orders and Hell, nothing more.

I quite agree. I wonder why it is that so (seemingly) few are able to question, much less refute, the illusion(?). Seems that humans will go to amazing lengths to avoid logical thought . It puzzles me exceedingly that such is the case.

It is an easily solved problem to your puzzle, because those claiming to believe, do so because their fundamental motivation is one of Selfishness, personal Greed & personal Lust for the possibility of Story book rewards! The biblical jebus lusted for these same Story book rewards for its unwarranted efforts also! (e.g. Deut. 24:16 & Ezek. 18:20)

Take away these promises of reward & they will scatter to the wind looking for another Cult to try to satisfy their Greed & Lust for personal reward!

This is easily provable should any claiming to be a believer wish to step forward?

Believe me the most selfness personal greed and personal lust r the people who dont have a religion... becuase they only live 1 time and in 1 time 1 chance what u goona do??? follow only your lusts even if the other people suffer from them they dont care...
now that is a fact u see if they can kill u and benefit them they will do it. they care only for them selfs . i dont say all of them but most of them it natural everybody loves their own SH1T, everybody say religion is bad but sometime u must look out side of the box.
If u eat u excrete it cant be helped
xXCryptoXx
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11/28/2013 8:28:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 3:08:34 AM, Kassandra wrote:
Okay. Suppose you are the King (or Queen) of the Universe. No limits on intellect, power or ability. Why (on Earth) would you require a bunch of semi-evolved hominids to kill cows and birds in your honor, to sing songs to you, and praise your virtues? What is worship anyway? What is the purpose?

It isn't required. If it were, humans would not have free will and all of us would be created to forcefully worship God.

Rather, God should be worshiped because of his attributes, and because of his willingness to share all of his good with his people (humanity), but only if individual humans are willing to accept God, and recognize his Godly traits.
Nolite Timere
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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11/28/2013 10:31:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 3:08:34 AM, Kassandra wrote:
Okay. Suppose you are the King (or Queen) of the Universe. No limits on intellect, power or ability. Why (on Earth) would you require a bunch of semi-evolved hominids to kill cows and birds in your honor, to sing songs to you, and praise your virtues? What is worship anyway? What is the purpose?

Worship means "to live," according to your thoughts. A man either lives according to the worldly thoughts that comes into his mind or the thoughts directly from our Creator that only us saints and prophets understand.

Thoughts are knowledge. If you love the thoughts of this world, you love this world. Since man has never had the thoughts from our Creator to think with, they can't love our Creator. Only us saints and prophets know the love of God and worship ( to live ) His thoughts.
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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11/28/2013 10:56:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 3:08:34 AM, Kassandra wrote:
Okay. Suppose you are the King (or Queen) of the Universe. No limits on intellect, power or ability. Why (on Earth) would you require a bunch of semi-evolved hominids to kill cows and birds in your honor, to sing songs to you, and praise your virtues? What is worship anyway? What is the purpose?

God doesn't require worship. In fact the Bible asks, "Do you [man] think your worship profits God in any way?"
God wants us to worship for the same reason you would want your 2 year old to obey you. It is good and healthy for him to do so. Worship is for us, not God. It benefits us. God wants us to worship Him because it keeps us spiritually safe and healthy.

There is another reason too. God wants us to worship Him because it is the right and moral thing to do. Imagine if Nelson Mandela had been ignored when he left prison? Or if a firefighter was ignored after suffering 3rd degree burns saving a little girl from a fire. Wouldn't those situations feel "un-right" to you?

God deserves worship. It is an affront to decency and goodness for worship to be denied Him. He is worthy to be praised.

What is the purpose?
1. Worship of God shows that you have the correct understanding of the relationship between you and God.
2. Worship of God feeds you spiritually. Like sunshine to a plant, it norishes your soul.
3. Worship of God is pleasing to God.
4. Worship of God shows you understand who God is.
5. Worship of God show you accept your humanity and His divinity.
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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11/28/2013 11:07:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 5:30:08 AM, Composer wrote:

Take away these promises of reward & they will scatter to the wind looking for another Cult to try to satisfy their Greed & Lust for personal reward!

Interesting. This is the same charge made by Satan to God about Job.

Job 1:9 - Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
Job 1:11 - But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

This is easily provable should any claiming to be a believer wish to step forward?

I wish to. But only if you submit to some questions too.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/28/2013 12:27:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 10:56:47 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 11/28/2013 3:08:34 AM, Kassandra wrote:
Okay. Suppose you are the King (or Queen) of the Universe. No limits on intellect, power or ability. Why (on Earth) would you require a bunch of semi-evolved hominids to kill cows and birds in your honor, to sing songs to you, and praise your virtues? What is worship anyway? What is the purpose?

God doesn't require worship. In fact the Bible asks, "Do you [man] think your worship profits God in any way?"
God wants us to worship for the same reason you would want your 2 year old to obey you. It is good and healthy for him to do so. Worship is for us, not God. It benefits us. God wants us to worship Him because it keeps us spiritually safe and healthy.

Keeps us safe from what? If God is so concerned about all of us then why do we go to hell for not believing in him?
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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11/28/2013 12:56:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 4:04:58 AM, Sleevedagger wrote:
Because religion is a man made fallacy designed to keep the poor in-line and the corrupt powerful. It's so people can have power over others by using threats of holy orders and Hell, nothing more.

*tips fedora*
Installgentoo
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11/28/2013 12:58:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 3:08:34 AM, Kassandra wrote:
Okay. Suppose you are the King (or Queen) of the Universe. No limits on intellect, power or ability. Why (on Earth) would you require a bunch of semi-evolved hominids to kill cows and birds in your honor, to sing songs to you, and praise your virtues? What is worship anyway? What is the purpose?

God has a personality and a mental state on a theistic view. By glorifying Him, you hope he will grant Divine Providence to you and make your life better, in turn for making his life better. This is a contract set up by every believer with God.
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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11/28/2013 1:23:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 12:27:41 PM, Double_R wrote:


Keeps us safe from what? If God is so concerned about all of us then why do we go to hell for not believing in him?

Dear, you are asking a question that grounds in believing first. Means you have decided that you'll not do "x" because by not doing "x" you are getting in trouble. You primarily proposed that not doing "x" is to get in trouble. And then therefore you decided to get in trouble (implicitly).
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/28/2013 1:35:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 1:23:32 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 12:27:41 PM, Double_R wrote:
Keeps us safe from what? If God is so concerned about all of us then why do we go to hell for not believing in him?

Dear, you are asking a question that grounds in believing first. Means you have decided that you'll not do "x" because by not doing "x" you are getting in trouble. You primarily proposed that not doing "x" is to get in trouble. And then therefore you decided to get in trouble (implicitly).

No, that's just silly. It helps to read arguments in context before responding to them

I was responding to an argument which claimed that God primarily wants us to worship him for our benefit, such as being kept safe. My response was to point out the absurdity of claiming that a being which created hell and decides to send us there is concerned for our safety.
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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11/28/2013 1:46:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 1:35:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:23:32 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 12:27:41 PM, Double_R wrote:
Keeps us safe from what? If God is so concerned about all of us then why do we go to hell for not believing in him?

Dear, you are asking a question that grounds in believing first. Means you have decided that you'll not do "x" because by not doing "x" you are getting in trouble. You primarily proposed that not doing "x" is to get in trouble. And then therefore you decided to get in trouble (implicitly).

No, that's just silly. It helps to read arguments in context before responding to them

I was responding to an argument which claimed that God primarily wants us to worship him for our benefit, such as being kept safe. My response was to point out the absurdity of claiming that a being which created hell and decides to send us there is concerned for our safety.

Yupp I know you was responding to the argument. But I'm also responding to show the invalidity of your claim.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Sleevedagger
Posts: 129
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11/28/2013 2:37:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 1:46:34 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:35:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:23:32 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 12:27:41 PM, Double_R wrote:
Keeps us safe from what? If God is so concerned about all of us then why do we go to hell for not believing in him?

Dear, you are asking a question that grounds in believing first. Means you have decided that you'll not do "x" because by not doing "x" you are getting in trouble. You primarily proposed that not doing "x" is to get in trouble. And then therefore you decided to get in trouble (implicitly).

No, that's just silly. It helps to read arguments in context before responding to them

I was responding to an argument which claimed that God primarily wants us to worship him for our benefit, such as being kept safe. My response was to point out the absurdity of claiming that a being which created hell and decides to send us there is concerned for our safety.

Yupp I know you was responding to the argument. But I'm also responding to show the invalidity of your claim.

You haven't yet shown anything
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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11/28/2013 6:21:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 3:08:34 AM, Kassandra wrote:
Okay. Suppose you are the King (or Queen) of the Universe. No limits on intellect, power or ability. Why (on Earth) would you require a bunch of semi-evolved hominids to kill cows and birds in your honor, to sing songs to you, and praise your virtues? What is worship anyway? What is the purpose?

great question!
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/29/2013 2:14:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 1:46:34 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:35:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:23:32 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 12:27:41 PM, Double_R wrote:
Keeps us safe from what? If God is so concerned about all of us then why do we go to hell for not believing in him?

Dear, you are asking a question that grounds in believing first. Means you have decided that you'll not do "x" because by not doing "x" you are getting in trouble. You primarily proposed that not doing "x" is to get in trouble. And then therefore you decided to get in trouble (implicitly).

No, that's just silly. It helps to read arguments in context before responding to them

I was responding to an argument which claimed that God primarily wants us to worship him for our benefit, such as being kept safe. My response was to point out the absurdity of claiming that a being which created hell and decides to send us there is concerned for our safety.

Yupp I know you was responding to the argument. But I'm also responding to show the invalidity of your claim.

And what claim was that? Enlighten me.
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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11/29/2013 2:27:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 2:37:40 PM, Sleevedagger wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:46:34 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:35:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:23:32 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 12:27:41 PM, Double_R wrote:
Keeps us safe from what? If God is so concerned about all of us then why do we go to hell for not believing in him?

Dear, you are asking a question that grounds in believing first. Means you have decided that you'll not do "x" because by not doing "x" you are getting in trouble. You primarily proposed that not doing "x" is to get in trouble. And then therefore you decided to get in trouble (implicitly).

No, that's just silly. It helps to read arguments in context before responding to them

I was responding to an argument which claimed that God primarily wants us to worship him for our benefit, such as being kept safe. My response was to point out the absurdity of claiming that a being which created hell and decides to send us there is concerned for our safety.

Double_R is claiming that if one thinks "a being which created Hell and ..........*decides to send us there is concerned for our safety*" is absurd thinking. Double_R had tried to negate the thinking by denying the safety concerns of that being because he created hell. I'm saying that Double_R had used an invalid negating point. Means if that thinking is absurd how would denying that will support the argument of Double_R rather it's absurd when Double_R used its absurdity (that's internal argument flaw) for negation. Explanation is below.

* Internal argument flaw; is that firstly one's argument wasn't to define the safety concerns in relation to creating hell. That was in relation to worshiping. The question that a being is concerned for benefit/ safety doesn't depend on creation of hell and decisions. The concern for safety depends upon the providing the power of choice for believing and disbelieving options. The elimination of power of choice will render the validity of Double_R claim that with an act of creating hell we shouldn't suppose safety concerns. But that isn't the case now as we've choice.

Also, negation is wrong because, Safety concerns are meaningless without introducing the danger possibility.
If you have all the good that is not safety at all, but just a prosper state in which you have no role, no safety, thus the what-if state of argument is a false combination for both_ the first one whom Double-R was replying to, and for Double_R for using the same argument's absurdity to negate without understanding the valid negating point.

Yupp I know you was responding to the argument. But I'm also responding to show the invalidity of your claim.


You haven't yet shown anything
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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11/29/2013 2:29:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/29/2013 2:27:41 AM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 2:37:40 PM, Sleevedagger wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:46:34 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:35:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:23:32 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 12:27:41 PM, Double_R wrote:
Keeps us safe from what? If God is so concerned about all of us then why do we go to hell for not believing in him?

Dear, you are asking a question that grounds in believing first. Means you have decided that you'll not do "x" because by not doing "x" you are getting in trouble. You primarily proposed that not doing "x" is to get in trouble. And then therefore you decided to get in trouble (implicitly).

No, that's just silly. It helps to read arguments in context before responding to them

I was responding to an argument which claimed that God primarily wants us to worship him for our benefit, such as being kept safe. My response was to point out the absurdity of claiming that a being which created hell and decides to send us there is concerned for our safety.

Double_R is claiming that if one thinks "a being which created Hell and ..........*decides to send us there is concerned for our safety*" is absurd thinking. Double_R had tried to negate the thinking by denying the safety concerns of that being because he created hell. I'm saying that Double_R had used an invalid negating point. Means if that thinking is absurd how would denying that will support the argument of Double_R rather it's absurd when Double_R used its absurdity (that's internal argument flaw) for negation. Explanation is below.

* Internal argument flaw; is that firstly one's argument wasn't to define the safety concerns in relation to creating hell. That was in relation to worshiping. The question that a being is concerned for benefit/ safety doesn't depend on creation of hell and decisions. The concern for safety depends upon the providing the power of choice for believing and disbelieving options. The elimination of power of choice will render the validity of Double_R claim that with an act of creating hell we shouldn't suppose safety concerns. But that isn't the case now as we've choice.

Also, negation is wrong because, Safety concerns are meaningless without introducing the danger possibility.
If you have all the good that is not safety at all, but just a prosper state in which you have no role, no safety, thus the what-if state of argument is a false combination for both_ the first one whom Double-R was replying to, and for Double_R for using the same argument's absurdity to negate without understanding the valid negating point.

Yupp I know you was responding to the argument. But I'm also responding to show the invalidity of your claim.


You haven't yet shown anything

Thus if that argument is absurd that is against Double_R instead of being in favor.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
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11/29/2013 3:55:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/29/2013 2:27:41 AM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 2:37:40 PM, Sleevedagger wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:46:34 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:35:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 11/28/2013 1:23:32 PM, Dazz wrote:
At 11/28/2013 12:27:41 PM, Double_R wrote:
Keeps us safe from what? If God is so concerned about all of us then why do we go to hell for not believing in him?

Dear, you are asking a question that grounds in believing first. Means you have decided that you'll not do "x" because by not doing "x" you are getting in trouble. You primarily proposed that not doing "x" is to get in trouble. And then therefore you decided to get in trouble (implicitly).

No, that's just silly. It helps to read arguments in context before responding to them

I was responding to an argument which claimed that God primarily wants us to worship him for our benefit, such as being kept safe. My response was to point out the absurdity of claiming that a being which created hell and decides to send us there is concerned for our safety.

Double_R is claiming that if one thinks "a being which created Hell and ..........*decides to send us there is concerned for our safety*" is absurd thinking. Double_R had tried to negate the thinking by denying the safety concerns of that being because he created hell. I'm saying that Double_R had used an invalid negating point. Means if that thinking is absurd how would denying that will support the argument of Double_R rather it's absurd when Double_R used its absurdity (that's internal argument flaw) for negation. Explanation is below.

* Internal argument flaw; is that firstly one's argument wasn't to define the safety concerns in relation to creating hell. That was in relation to worshiping. The question that a being is concerned for benefit/ safety doesn't depend on creation of hell and decisions. The concern for safety depends upon the providing the power of choice for believing and disbelieving options. The elimination of power of choice will render the validity of Double_R claim that with an act of creating hell we shouldn't suppose safety concerns. But that isn't the case now as we've choice.

Ok, this looks like the free will argument. In other words, God doesn't send us to hell, we send ourselves there. Is that correct? I will assume so.

The free will argument is the equivalent of calling some stranger over the phone and telling them that they must wire you some money or they will die an empty death. Then when they hang up thinking it is a prank call, you kill them with your sniper rifle and claim that they committed suicide.

The argument is nonsense because first off we do not accept the terms and conditions for which we live under. God has forced those conditions onto us against our will. But more importantly, you can not claim a person made a choice to end up somewhere when that person did not believe they would end up there. That is a logical contradiction.

Give me one real world example where a person can be the subject of either of these two circumstances let alone both, and you would still claim that the results are that of their own choosing.

Also, negation is wrong because, Safety concerns are meaningless without introducing the danger possibility.

Yes they are. And if you care about someone else's safety then that is exactly what you would prefer.

If you have all the good that is not safety at all, but just a prosper state in which you have no role

Could you please define safety?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/29/2013 6:03:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 3:08:34 AM, Kassandra wrote:
Okay. Suppose you are the King (or Queen) of the Universe. No limits on intellect, power or ability. Why (on Earth) would you require a bunch of semi-evolved hominids to kill cows and birds in your honor, to sing songs to you, and praise your virtues? What is worship anyway? What is the purpose?

That depends on what you call worship.

If you mean the formal kind that you get in churches, then quite simply he doesn't require or need that.

The Apostle James made it very clear the sort of worship that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ wants, and the sort that his son taught whilst on earth.

James 1:27
27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

It is a form of worship which few choose to practice, because it is unselfish, and is an unobtrusive form which is not on public view, and is only seen and appreciated by God and Christ.

It is also an informal form of worship, but it fits in perfectly with what Jesus said were the two most important commandments in the law, as well as the ones that the whole of the law and prophets are based on.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 He said to him: ""You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind." 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: "You must love your neighbor as yourself." 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets."

It really is as informal, and as non-ritualistic as that.

So why does God require it? Simply for the good of all humanity.
MadCornishBiker
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11/29/2013 6:07:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 4:04:58 AM, Sleevedagger wrote:
Because religion is a man made fallacy designed to keep the poor in-line and the corrupt powerful. It's so people can have power over others by using threats of holy orders and Hell, nothing more.

That is certainly why the concept of a hell was invented by the Roman Catholics, but since it is not truly a scriptural concept, it only has power in the minds of the gullible.

God, the True God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, would not even contemplate such a thing for the creation he loves so much that he allowed his son to come to earth to suffer and die for.

The only religions which is a "man made concept" and that only at the behest and encouragement of Satan, is false religion in all it's myriad forms, including the vast majority of those who call themselves Christian.
MadCornishBiker
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11/29/2013 6:14:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/28/2013 4:45:02 AM, Kassandra wrote:
If, there is a God, and I do not say that such is impossible, I have to wonder why god must necessarily be a "He" or a "Him". And why does "he" seem to suffer from so many human weaknesses and foibles? So, basically, god is just this really lonely Guy, who decided to create some creatures who don't possess the sense "God gave a Grape", but are, nevertheless given dominion over the Earth, and are supposed to make intelligent decisions and choices--chief among those choices is to spend time studying on, meditating on worshiping and praying to an entity who may or may not exist? This is not logical. An egomaniacal Queen or King would conceivably require constant adulation, but why would a god not be "above" such a requirement?

Addressing God as "He" is purely an honorific, since there is no gender, nor any need for it, in the spirit world.

The God I know and love is certainly not lonely, but he does have a lot of love to give, and until he created everything no-one and nothing to give that love to.

God is above adulation, but not the form of worship described at James 1:27 "The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world."

That form of worship benefits only those who practice it. The only benefit God gets is a freedom from the sort of concern he must feel at the suffering he sees today, but which will not be allowed to happen for much longer, thanks to the loyalty of his son. A loyalty not just to his father, but to all creation, most especially to humanity.
Sleevedagger
Posts: 129
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11/29/2013 6:36:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/29/2013 6:07:58 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/28/2013 4:04:58 AM, Sleevedagger wrote:
Because religion is a man made fallacy designed to keep the poor in-line and the corrupt powerful. It's so people can have power over others by using threats of holy orders and Hell, nothing more.

That is certainly why the concept of a hell was invented by the Roman Catholics, but since it is not truly a scriptural concept, it only has power in the minds of the gullible.

God, the True God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, would not even contemplate such a thing for the creation he loves so much that he allowed his son to come to earth to suffer and die for.

The only religions which is a "man made concept" and that only at the behest and encouragement of Satan, is false religion in all it's myriad forms, including the vast majority of those who call themselves Christian.

So Hell isn't real, so where does Satan dwell? Are you now rejecting the word of the Bible, is the Bible wrong?

How do you claim to know the mind of God?
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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11/29/2013 9:04:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/29/2013 6:36:27 AM, Sleevedagger wrote:
At 11/29/2013 6:07:58 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/28/2013 4:04:58 AM, Sleevedagger wrote:
Because religion is a man made fallacy designed to keep the poor in-line and the corrupt powerful. It's so people can have power over others by using threats of holy orders and Hell, nothing more.

That is certainly why the concept of a hell was invented by the Roman Catholics, but since it is not truly a scriptural concept, it only has power in the minds of the gullible.

God, the True God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, would not even contemplate such a thing for the creation he loves so much that he allowed his son to come to earth to suffer and die for.

The only religions which is a "man made concept" and that only at the behest and encouragement of Satan, is false religion in all it's myriad forms, including the vast majority of those who call themselves Christian.



So Hell isn't real, so where does Satan dwell? Are you now rejecting the word of the Bible, is the Bible wrong?

How do you claim to know the mind of God?

Hell is real, but it is nothing more than the common grave of mankind. Perverting it into a place of conscious torment is a corruption of the truth, and comes from Greek Mythology.

Up until he was finally cast out of heaven that was where Satan "lived", as Job 2 shows us:

Job 2:1 Afterward the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them to take his station before Jehovah.

However when Christ took up his throne, Satan was cast down to the vicinity of thee earth whilst heaven was sorted out, and before being imprisoned, Hence tells us:

Revelation 12:7-12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil+ and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come to pass the salvation+ and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time."

Notice particularly verse 12 which tells us what the comparative results for heaven and earth will be of Satan's being cast down.

According to the understanding of prophecy, especially Daniel chapters 2 and 4, Christ took up his throne in or around 1914, and so Satan would have been cast down just prior to that.

This seems to fit in very well with the increasing levels of suffering amongst mankind, especially in those areas of the earth left behind by the selfish "progress" of the West ever since the middle if the 19th century, and especially since WWI
Sleevedagger
Posts: 129
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11/29/2013 9:54:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/29/2013 9:04:12 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/29/2013 6:36:27 AM, Sleevedagger wrote:
At 11/29/2013 6:07:58 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/28/2013 4:04:58 AM, Sleevedagger wrote:
Because religion is a man made fallacy designed to keep the poor in-line and the corrupt powerful. It's so people can have power over others by using threats of holy orders and Hell, nothing more.

That is certainly why the concept of a hell was invented by the Roman Catholics, but since it is not truly a scriptural concept, it only has power in the minds of the gullible.

God, the True God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, would not even contemplate such a thing for the creation he loves so much that he allowed his son to come to earth to suffer and die for.

The only religions which is a "man made concept" and that only at the behest and encouragement of Satan, is false religion in all it's myriad forms, including the vast majority of those who call themselves Christian.



So Hell isn't real, so where does Satan dwell? Are you now rejecting the word of the Bible, is the Bible wrong?

How do you claim to know the mind of God?

Hell is real, but it is nothing more than the common grave of mankind. Perverting it into a place of conscious torment is a corruption of the truth, and comes from Greek Mythology.

Up until he was finally cast out of heaven that was where Satan "lived", as Job 2 shows us:

Job 2:1 Afterward the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them to take his station before Jehovah.

However when Christ took up his throne, Satan was cast down to the vicinity of thee earth whilst heaven was sorted out, and before being imprisoned, Hence tells us:

Revelation 12:7-12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil+ and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come to pass the salvation+ and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time."

Notice particularly verse 12 which tells us what the comparative results for heaven and earth will be of Satan's being cast down.

According to the understanding of prophecy, especially Daniel chapters 2 and 4, Christ took up his throne in or around 1914, and so Satan would have been cast down just prior to that.

This seems to fit in very well with the increasing levels of suffering amongst mankind, especially in those areas of the earth left behind by the selfish "progress" of the West ever since the middle if the 19th century, and especially since WWI

So now Hell is real, I thought you wrote it wasn't? What makes you anymore right then the Catholics, Muslims or Pagans?

It's odd that a God would cast out this fallen "angel" to wander, why not just cast the evil away instead?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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11/29/2013 10:34:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/29/2013 6:07:58 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 11/28/2013 4:04:58 AM, Sleevedagger wrote:
Because religion is a man made fallacy designed to keep the poor in-line and the corrupt powerful. It's so people can have power over others by using threats of holy orders and Hell, nothing more.

That is certainly why the concept of a hell was invented by the Roman Catholics, but since it is not truly a scriptural concept, it only has power in the minds of the gullible.

God, the True God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, would not even contemplate such a thing for the creation he loves so much that he allowed his son to come to earth to suffer and die for.

The only religions which is a "man made concept" and that only at the behest and encouragement of Satan, is false religion in all it's myriad forms, including the vast majority of those who call themselves Christian.

It's God's plan called the beast is where all religions and religious ideas came from. Satan is God's overall plan to deceive His people from knowing HIm or His eternal plan that only us saints understand. We saints learn all about God's delusion, which is everything we see in this world. What we see keeps us from the invisible knowledge of God to know who we really are as God's invisible thoughts. Not even scientists understand that we are God's thoughts. They keep looking for the Truth in their atomic elements but atomic elements are only illusions that make them believe in this world instead of our created Heavenly existence in the mind of our Creator.

Religious people are still thinking with thoughts that were spoken from the beast over 2,000 years ago so they are very far from the Truth of who we are. At least scientists who study the invisible energy are getting closer to the Truth but they won't succeed because they don't know who our Creator is, either. They don't realize that our Creator's thoughts were spoken into wavelengths of energy and this is the Heaven that all the early saints spoke from and tried to explain to their believers what our invisible existence is by giving them analogies ( parables ) by using the illusions of this world that we see.

Everyone in this world is worshiping the things of this world, including the flesh of a man named Jesus. The flesh of man is just as much a deceiver as a tables and chairs are that are built with human hands. A crucifix is built with human hands ( mark of the beast ) to lure Christians into believing what they see is the Truth. This simple ornament from the beast has deceived billions of God's people. The Bible alone is something that is seen by religious men as being the Truth but this simple book has deceived every Christian whoever read it. They actually think the words in the Bible is the Word of God without realizing that these words were translated and changed by deceivers ( flesh of man ).

We saints don't get our information from the Bible. We get direct information from our Creator within His mind ( our mind, also ) that teaches us who we are in Him. We learn that we're the invisible Word of God that we testify to in writing and speaking but only as our Creator puts words from our own vocabulary within the mind to understand this invisible knowledge. We are taught about Christ through our testimonies and then we share this information to anyone who listens to us ( chosen believers ).

1 John 4:
6: We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.