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God is immoral.

Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/3/2013 9:28:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

It's difficult living in the mind of our Creator without realizing it, isn't it?
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/3/2013 9:31:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/3/2013 9:28:46 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

It's difficult living in the mind of our Creator without realizing it, isn't it?

It's difficult having no rational arguments to back up your thoughts. You don't think about it. That's it right?
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/3/2013 9:34:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/3/2013 9:31:08 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:28:46 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

It's difficult living in the mind of our Creator without realizing it, isn't it?

It's difficult having no rational arguments to back up your thoughts. You don't think about it. That's it right?

I get to think with our Creator's thoughts. That's why you can't understand me.
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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12/4/2013 11:40:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

2 Questions.

1. Please define "bad" as used in your comment above.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/4/2013 11:46:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2013 11:40:29 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

2 Questions.

1. Please define "bad" as used in your comment above.

Bad is something that decreases the overall joy of a population more than it increases it, and allows death to come to those who have not commited similar acts.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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12/4/2013 12:44:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2013 11:46:57 AM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/4/2013 11:40:29 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

2 Questions.

1. Please define "bad" as used in your comment above.

Bad is something that decreases the overall joy of a population more than it increases it, and allows death to come to those who have not commited similar acts.

Then your argument fails.

1. First, I haven't a clue how anyone can know with and certainty what increases or decreases the overall joy of a population. For example, there was a time no one could tell you whether abolishing slavery would make more people happy than those it made sad. Today Abortion is such a topic.

2. And by "a population" do you mean a tribe? A city? A country? A continent? A race? The world? Every side on every cause claims their side winning will make more people happy. Who judges?

3. Who set the rule that decreasing the overall joy of a population is "bad"? Seems to me that you like this definition for the selfish reason that you stand to have increase of your personal joy become the duty of God. How convenient for you.

4. Why should God be responsible for protecting you from joy-decreasing things? And if you think He should be responsible, does that mean you in turn have some duty towards Him?

This is the same old POE (problem of Evil) stated another way. It is not well thought out and is basically an emotional argument demanding that God, if He claims to love you, will do whatever makes you happy, will keep you protected from the consequences of your behavior, and will require no commitment from you at all.

Every mother with a toddler will recognize this mindset.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/4/2013 2:09:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2013 12:44:53 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/4/2013 11:46:57 AM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/4/2013 11:40:29 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

2 Questions.

1. Please define "bad" as used in your comment above.

Bad is something that decreases the overall joy of a population more than it increases it, and allows death to come to those who have not commited similar acts.

Then your argument fails.

1. First, I haven't a clue how anyone can know with and certainty what increases or decreases the overall joy of a population. For example, there was a time no one could tell you whether abolishing slavery would make more people happy than those it made sad. Today Abortion is such a topic.

You can't know. You can make reasonable guesses. Killing a child. That will probably decrease the joy of a bunch of people. Flooding the earth. Probably decreases joy by a lot.

2. And by "a population" do you mean a tribe? A city? A country? A continent? A race? The world? Every side on every cause claims their side winning will make more people happy. Who judges?

All intelligent life that exists, or will exist. (Not specific people, like someone in the womb, but just future generations)

3. Who set the rule that decreasing the overall joy of a population is "bad"? Seems to me that you like this definition for the selfish reason that you stand to have increase of your personal joy become the duty of God. How convenient for you.

That would be me weighing my joy over that of others. I must weigh joy evenly.

4. Why should God be responsible for protecting you from joy-decreasing things? And if you think He should be responsible, does that mean you in turn have some duty towards Him?

No, he doesn't need to stop joy-decreasing things associated with free will, but famine, plague, earthquakes. These have nothing to do with responsibility. These are just people dying randomly. Or sudden infant death. That's not responsibility or free will. That is an innocent dying for no reason.

This is the same old POE (problem of Evil) stated another way. It is not well thought out and is basically an emotional argument demanding that God, if He claims to love you, will do whatever makes you happy, will keep you protected from the consequences of your behavior, and will require no commitment from you at all.

It's not making us all happy, it's the protection from random evil. It's the protection from those whose wills are mightier than ours. I mean, seriously. What's the point of an earthquake that causes a tsunami that kills hundreds of thousands of people?

Every mother with a toddler will recognize this mindset.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
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12/4/2013 2:12:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

You admitted he exists!

POE: Proves god exists, and that he is also a incredible pain.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/4/2013 2:18:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2013 2:12:19 PM, TheAntidoter wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

You admitted he exists!

POE: Proves god exists, and that he is also a incredible pain.

If what I wrote was confusing I apologize. I never admitted he existed. I simply stooped to the level of allowing the opposing side to be right, to show that if they are right, god is a complete douschb*g.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/4/2013 2:27:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

I agree 100%. The abundance of horrific and terrible suffering and death on a massive scale makes it rather self-evident that God does not exist. Most philosophers (even Atheistic alike) agree with the Free-Will defense by Alvin Plantinga, which made the logical PoE rather unpopular. However, Quentin Smith had a great rebuttal to it, and I am convinced that the logical PoE is still sound.
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
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12/4/2013 2:37:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2013 2:18:44 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/4/2013 2:12:19 PM, TheAntidoter wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

You admitted he exists!

POE: Proves god exists, and that he is also a incredible pain.

If what I wrote was confusing I apologize. I never admitted he existed. I simply stooped to the level of allowing the opposing side to be right, to show that if they are right, god is a complete douschb*g.

I was quoting a cartoon for SMBC

http://www.smbc-comics.com...
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/4/2013 2:40:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oh. Sorry then.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
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12/4/2013 2:40:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2013 2:40:01 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
Oh. Sorry then.

It's ok.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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12/5/2013 1:55:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/4/2013 2:09:39 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/4/2013 12:44:53 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/4/2013 11:46:57 AM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/4/2013 11:40:29 AM, ethang5 wrote:

;Please define "bad" as used in your comment above.

Bad is something that decreases the overall joy of a population more than it increases it, and allows death to come to those who have not commited similar acts.

Then your argument fails.

1. First, I haven't a clue how anyone can know with and certainty what increases or decreases the overall joy of a population.

You can't know. You can make reasonable guesses.

Thank you for being intellectually honest. But if you can't know, you argument fails.

2. And by "a population" do you mean a tribe? A city? A country? A continent? A race? The world? Every side on every cause claims their side winning will make more people happy. Who judges?

All intelligent life that exists, or will exist. (Not specific people, like someone in the womb, but just future generations)

Sorry, but while this sounds all sweet and humanist, it is illogical. In order to be able to judge the morality of God, we need to know now, not in future generations. And do you think you'd ever get consensus from All intelligent life that exists, or will exist? And even if you did, would that necessarily make them morally right?

3. Who set the rule that decreasing the overall joy of a population is "bad"? Seems to me that you like this definition for the selfish reason that you stand to have increase of your personal joy become the duty of God. How convenient for you.

That would be me weighing my joy over that of others. I must weigh joy evenly.

Even when people are convinced they are weighing joy evenly, others stoutly disagree. What you are suggesting flies in the face of human nature and ALL human history.

4. Why should God be responsible for protecting you from joy-decreasing things? And if you think He should be responsible, does that mean you in turn have some duty towards Him?

No, he doesn't need to stop joy-decreasing things associated with free will, but famine, plague, earthquakes. These have nothing to do with responsibility.

Why should God be responsible for protecting you from famines, plagues, and earthquakes? And if you think He should be responsible, does that mean you in turn have some duty towards Him?

This is the same old POE (problem of Evil) stated another way. It is not well thought out and is basically an emotional argument demanding that God, if He claims to love you, will do whatever makes you happy, will keep you protected from the consequences of your behavior, and will require no commitment from you at all.

It's not making us all happy, it's the protection from random evil. It's the protection from those whose wills are mightier than ours. I mean, seriously. What's the point of an earthquake that causes a tsunami that kills hundreds of thousands of people?

My definition of "Bad"is not entirely defined by "Stuff I don't personally like." Still, Why should God have this responsibility? And if you think He should be responsible, does that mean you in turn have some duty towards Him?

At the risk of insulting you, I must point that your argument is infantile. On one hand you say, all people will judge, and on the other hand you say God should protect us from people whose wills are mightier than ours. But those people will be unhappy at God's protection of you. And you still won't answer the question of whether this Godly protection duty-bounds you to God in any way.

You have the point of view you do because you view human suffering as the greatest evil there is. So you demand that God protect you if He is indeed not "bad." Yet you have a contradictory and illogical definition of "bad."

Boiled down to it's core, your argument demands that if God "loves" us, He would be our personal genie. Because just like your irrational and childish definitions of good and bad, you have a childish understanding of love.

Let me stop here. I know I sound harsh, so let me say some nice things. You are probably one of the most honest atheists I have ever spoken to. You answered my questions honestly. I appreciate that. I think you are naive and illogical, but I think your motives are pure.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/5/2013 9:23:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Why should God be responsible for protecting you from famines, plagues, and earthquakes? And if you think He should be responsible, does that mean you in turn have some duty towards Him?

It's not a question of should. If you could stop all earthquakes and famine and plague, not affect free will whatsoever, and not do anything bad like become the cause of overpopulation or anything like that, then you would be bad for not doing so. Allowing people to be killed for no reason, when minimal effort with no negative repercussions are the stakes, then you are an immoral person.

This is the same old POE (problem of Evil) stated another way. It is not well thought out and is basically an emotional argument demanding that God, if He claims to love you, will do whatever makes you happy, will keep you protected from the consequences of your behavior, and will require no commitment from you at all.

It's not making us all happy, it's the protection from random evil. It's the protection from those whose wills are mightier than ours. I mean, seriously. What's the point of an earthquake that causes a tsunami that kills hundreds of thousands of people?

My definition of "Bad"is not entirely defined by "Stuff I don't personally like." Still, Why should God have this responsibility? And if you think He should be responsible, does that mean you in turn have some duty towards Him?

I do not believe in god. Believe me, if tomorrow, all earthquakes, global warming/climate change, famine, plague, diseases you can get in the womb, recessive disorders, and natural disasters stopped, I might try serving god. God has failed to make himself evident to me in any manner, and if he is real, has failed my qualifications of being worthy of duty to him. So if god made himself evident to me, and either explained to me a good reason for all evils, both free-will and random, or stopped them, then I would feel that I have a duty to him.

At the risk of insulting you, I must point that your argument is infantile. On one hand you say, all people will judge, and on the other hand you say God should protect us from people whose wills are mightier than ours. But those people will be unhappy at God's protection of you. And you still won't answer the question of whether this Godly protection duty-bounds you to God in any way.

By people's who's wills are mightier, I meant people who go into other countries and kill off a bunch of popular leaders and take over. By "all people will judge" I meant that morals are determined by perceived benefit to society and science. Killing babies for no reason, has both negative views by society and science tells us that it is unbeneficial to us. Homosexuality may be negative by society, but science tells us that it is natural, and not harmful to society unless you have a very small population. The question is, should you ask science for your morals or society?
If you asked people things like "are you for slavery, are you for incest, are you for polygamy?" They would probably overwhelmingly say no in the western world. However, the Christian god and the bible condone these things. Morality is subjective based on perceived benefits and harms to society. By our modern standards, god is certainly not a moral character.

You have the point of view you do because you view human suffering as the greatest evil there is. So you demand that God protect you if He is indeed not "bad." Yet you have a contradictory and illogical definition of "bad."

Yes, because "bad" and "wrong" are terribly defined terms.

Boiled down to it's core, your argument demands that if God "loves" us, He would be our personal genie. Because just like your irrational and childish definitions of good and bad, you have a childish understanding of love.

If a parent (god) sees their child (humans) skateboarding in a somewhat dangerous manner in their driveway, and lets the child get hurt to learn a lesson of safety and good choices, that is okay, because you are teaching them a lesson by them getting hurt. Or letting them make their own decisions in life and respecting their free will. However, if a parent sees a snake (natural disaster, disease, etc.) and the child is walking towards it, is it okay to let the snake bite the child? No. it didn't help the child make it's own decisions, it didn't teach it any lessons and it didn't respect or disrespect their free will. That is not love. There is a difference between protecting your child from random and unnecessary pain and allowing a child to make a mistake in order to learn.

Let me stop here. I know I sound harsh, so let me say some nice things. You are probably one of the most honest atheists I have ever spoken to. You answered my questions honestly. I appreciate that. I think you are naive and illogical, but I think your motives are pure.

It's okay. I would disagree with you, although it is late where I am when I make my posts, maybe if I read them in the morning they wouldn't sound so good, and I would say that this argument has been interesting,
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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12/6/2013 7:41:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Lordgrae,

Why should God be responsible for protecting you from famines, plagues, and earthquakes? And if you think He should be responsible, does that mean you in turn have some duty towards Him?

It's not a question of should. If you could stop all earthquakes and famine and plague, not affect free will whatsoever, and not do anything bad like become the cause of overpopulation or anything like that, then you would be bad for not doing so.

But what is bad? Your answer to this question seems to be, "God would be bad because WE would think so." That is fine, but it is not logical to hold God (or anyone) to YOUR personal morality. The reason you think God should is because you think He should. It's isn't logical. In essence you are calling God "bad" for not following YOUR tastes. I'm talking about the principle underpinning your argument

Allowing people to be killed for no reason, when minimal effort with no negative repercussions are the stakes, then you are an immoral person.

The morality of an action depends on 3 things. The intent of the actor, the relationship he has to those affected, and his authority within the sphere of his action.

Does God's action fail in any of these three areas? This is where we really disagree. You see God as under the same moral code as people. For you God is simply another person. If that is the case, I must ask what is your definition of the word "God"? Yes, I know you don't believe God exists, but God is a concept we can discuss. I don't believe unicorns exist either but I can define the concept. And though I don't believe they exist, the word has specific meaning to me when I use it.

I do not believe in god. Believe me, if tomorrow, all earthquakes, global warming/climate change, famine, plague, diseases you can get in the womb, recessive disorders, and natural disasters stopped, I might try serving god.

Exactly. You would "try" serving your personal genie because He serves you. Color me skeptical.

...if god made himself evident to me, and either explained to me a good reason for all evils, both free-will and random, or stopped them, then I would feel that I have a duty to him.

Thank you. So you agree with the concept that if God satisfied your definition of "Good" you would have a duty to to him. That is progress.

On one hand you say, all people will judge, and on the other hand you say God should protect us from people whose wills are mightier than ours. But those people will be unhappy at God's protection of you.

By "all people will judge" I meant that morals are determined by perceived benefit to society and science.

But different people will have different perceptions! You mean morals should be determined by perceived benefit to society and science. Many people who go into countries and kill leaders do so sincerely thinking they are doing it for the benefit of society. Your position is untenable.

Killing babies for no reason, has both negative views by society and science tells us that it is unbeneficial to us.

Two problems here. You don't really know if there is no reason. You mean, for no reason you can think of. Also, you seem to imply here that God should be, or ought to be bound, by what society finds positive. So let's talk about the underlying principle. Are you talking about morality by majority? If more than 51% of society think something is immoral, it is? If you say "not always" as I suspect you will, then please tell me on what principle is your morality based? And why is that subjective morality authoritative enough to require God to obey it???

Homosexuality may be negative by society, but science tells us that it is natural, and not harmful to society unless you have a very small population.

Fine. So now your morality is based on science? Or on society and science but science trumps when they disagree? Or is it nature?

The question is, should you ask science for your morals or society?

You read my mind. But why is it limited to science and society?

If you asked people things like "are you for slavery, are you for incest, are you for polygamy?" They would probably overwhelmingly say no in the western world. However, the Christian god and the bible condone these things.

Actually, though that seems to be a common belief in the west today, it is untrue. The Bible condones none of those things. The Bible is a populist book. It could never have changed the world in the way it did if it condoned what most of the world finds unsavory. You are judging the book on your chrono-centric, American societal value and coming up with a judgment which seems reasonable to you. But if we went through any of the passages in a reasoned way, considering the time and society at that instant, you would see that your judgment is faulty, unfair, and biased.

Morality is subjective based on perceived benefits and harms to society.

Yet you seem to think there is an objective morality to which you can even hold God to. Your judgment is inconsistent and unfair. If you admit that morality is subjective, then you also tacitly admit that anyone NOT following a certain morality can ONLY be said to be not following a certain morality. He cannot possibly be called "bad" unless you define "bad" as, " not following a certain morality". And that definition of "bad" renders the word absolutely meaningless. You are judging and convicting God on a meaningless standard!

By our modern standards, god is certainly not a moral character.

Because "modern standards" are as incoherent and self-centered as your arguments in this thread.

You have the point of view you do because you view human suffering as the greatest evil there is. So you demand that God protect you if He is indeed not "bad." Yet you have a contradictory and illogical definition of "bad."

Yes, because "bad" and "wrong" are terribly defined terms.

Fine. Then give them better definitions. I don't care how you define them, as long as you are logical and consistent.

Boiled down to its core, your argument demands that if God "loves" us, He would be our personal genie. Because just like your irrational and childish definitions of good and bad, you have a childish understanding of love.

...if a parent sees a snake (natural disaster, disease, etc.) and the child is walking towards it, is it okay to let the snake bite the child? No. it didn't help the child make it's own decisions, it didn't teach it any lessons and it didn't respect or disrespect their free will. That is not love. There is a difference between protecting your child from random and unnecessary pain and allowing a child to make a mistake in order to learn.

I agree. But if you notice in your analogy, the child has a duty to be obedient to the parent. The child has a responsibility towards the parent. I can tell from your earlier comments about "modern man" and "...in the west" that you modern men have dismissed any possibility of a duty to God, yet you insist that only He is bound by your inconsistent and subjective morality.

Let me point out what appears to me to be another logical fallacy in your argument. You said, " Homosexuality may be negative by society, but science tells us that it is natural,..." So your morality excuses homosexuality because science calls it "natural" even though society views it as negative.

Are earthquakes not also "natural"?
logicaldebater
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12/6/2013 5:04:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

This is a common argument used by atheists, but it is false. Your question, in short, is "if God is so good, why doesn't he stop wars, famine, murder, rape, etc., when I would if I had his power?" You are right in believing that hate, war, natural disaster, infant death, etc. are wrong. Those things are wicked, evil, and terrible in God's eyes, but not only those things are wicked, evil, and terrible in God's eyes. God despises things we despise (like murder, rape, war, famine, etc.) but he also hates many other things that in our culture are considered "normal." God hates lust, adultery, fornication, lying, thieving, dishonoring one's parents, taking his name in vain, and many other despicable sins. The reason God doesn't stop, say, a man from raping and murdering a child, when we would, is because if God were to stop the evils we think are evils (like war, murder, famine, etc.) he, because he is a good and just God, would also have to stop the things that are evil by his standards (like lust, adultery, fornication, lying, etc.), not just our standards. And, because we are all sinners, we would all end up in hell because we are deserving of God's wrath.

Because God is rich in mercy, he gives us much, much, much more time to repent than we deserve. God does not wish for anyone hell, so do you know what he did so that we could be saved? "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"(John 3:16). You are guilty before God, the Judge of the universe. If you died today, you would be guilty in God's eyes. Because God is a good judge, he must enforce justice, so you would end up in hell because of your crime against him. But, God sent his son, Jesus Christ, to pay the price for you. Jesus took the punishment for your crime, and all you must do to be saved is repent of your sins (meaning, turn from them) and trust the Savior, Jesus. If you do not trust the Savior, though, you will have to take the punishment for your crime. The choice is yours.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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12/7/2013 5:06:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Who are you to judge God ?! He taught you what morality should be for you, you don't know what morality is or should be for Him, everything is according to His own will not yours.

Why do you even call evil Evil ?! Huh!

Do you know the purpose of creation ? if you don't know then why do you judge ?!
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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12/7/2013 5:25:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2013 5:06:08 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Who are you to judge God ?! He taught you what morality should be for you, you don't know what morality is or should be for Him, everything is according to His own will not yours.

Why do you even call evil Evil ?! Huh!

Do you know the purpose of creation ? if you don't know then why do you judge ?!

According to what his books define as evil, he fits the bill.

I neither define evil nor god.

Allegedly his books do define him and he meets all of the criteria of evil as defined in his books.

So apparently your god defines evil and defines himself and they are the same.
Good luck with that.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/7/2013 9:37:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/6/2013 5:04:27 PM, logicaldebater wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

This is a common argument used by atheists, but it is false. Your question, in short, is "if God is so good, why doesn't he stop wars, famine, murder, rape, etc., when I would if I had his power?" You are right in believing that hate, war, natural disaster, infant death, etc. are wrong. Those things are wicked, evil, and terrible in God's eyes, but not only those things are wicked, evil, and terrible in God's eyes. God despises things we despise (like murder, rape, war, famine, etc.) but he also hates many other things that in our culture are considered "normal." God hates lust, adultery, fornication, lying, thieving, dishonoring one's parents, taking his name in vain, and many other despicable sins. The reason God doesn't stop, say, a man from raping and murdering a child, when we would, is because if God were to stop the evils we think are evils (like war, murder, famine, etc.) he, because he is a good and just God, would also have to stop the things that are evil by his standards (like lust, adultery, fornication, lying, etc.), not just our standards. And, because we are all sinners, we would all end up in hell because we are deserving of God's wrath.

Because God is rich in mercy, he gives us much, much, much more time to repent than we deserve. God does not wish for anyone hell, so do you know what he did so that we could be saved? "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"(John 3:16). You are guilty before God, the Judge of the universe. If you died today, you would be guilty in God's eyes. Because God is a good judge, he must enforce justice, so you would end up in hell because of your crime against him. But, God sent his son, Jesus Christ, to pay the price for you. Jesus took the punishment for your crime, and all you must do to be saved is repent of your sins (meaning, turn from them) and trust the Savior, Jesus. If you do not trust the Savior, though, you will have to take the punishment for your crime. The choice is yours.

So an intelligent being thinks this is a good idea? He thinks that the best way to determine who is worthy is only letting people into heaven who are 100% perfect even after counting things like lying when your four, or saying "god damnit!" as evil, and the only way to be worthy without this is to have blind faith without evidence. And not only belief without evidence, but belief in a specific instance of no evidence.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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12/7/2013 11:06:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2013 5:25:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/7/2013 5:06:08 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
Who are you to judge God ?! He taught you what morality should be for you, you don't know what morality is or should be for Him, everything is according to His own will not yours.

Why do you even call evil Evil ?! Huh!

Do you know the purpose of creation ? if you don't know then why do you judge ?!

According to what his books define as evil, he fits the bill.

I neither define evil nor god.

Allegedly his books do define him and he meets all of the criteria of evil as defined in his books.

So apparently your god defines evil and defines himself and they are the same.
Good luck with that.

The book defines evil and good for people, and defines His own Good and evil don't confuse men with God!
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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12/7/2013 11:28:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

God is accountable to none, what He does is good by definition.

Man is accountable before God.

Why do you guys judge God like a man ?!!
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/7/2013 2:12:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2013 11:28:52 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

God is accountable to none, what He does is good by definition.

Man is accountable before God.

Why do you guys judge God like a man ?!!

Because that is the only measure we have to judge something. If god wished us to view him as good and existent, he would have given everyone the ability to be able to come to that conclusion, instead of just asserting so.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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12/7/2013 2:18:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2013 2:12:51 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/7/2013 11:28:52 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

God is accountable to none, what He does is good by definition.

Man is accountable before God.

Why do you guys judge God like a man ?!!

Because that is the only measure we have to judge something. If god wished us to view him as good and existent, he would have given everyone the ability to be able to come to that conclusion, instead of just asserting so.

Why should he care about your opinion ?! He owns the world anyway and He is the ultimate truth and reality, if you're not able to find him with your reasoning , then this hurts none except your own self.

And it's false when you say this is the only measure, the creator isn't equal to the creation, you can't even judge Him and you will not when He can judge you and He will, you're just wasting your time to feel less guilty of your own injustice.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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12/7/2013 4:51:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2013 2:18:50 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/7/2013 2:12:51 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/7/2013 11:28:52 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

God is accountable to none, what He does is good by definition.

Man is accountable before God.

Why do you guys judge God like a man ?!!

Because that is the only measure we have to judge something. If god wished us to view him as good and existent, he would have given everyone the ability to be able to come to that conclusion, instead of just asserting so.

Why should he care about your opinion ?! He owns the world anyway and He is the ultimate truth and reality, if you're not able to find him with your reasoning , then this hurts none except your own self.

Well, based on how much every major god seems to want everyone to recognize and praise him, he would seem to care about people's perceptions of him.

And it's false when you say this is the only measure, the creator isn't equal to the creation, you can't even judge Him and you will not when He can judge you and He will, you're just wasting your time to feel less guilty of your own injustice.

Well then he can't judge me. My standards are way to high for god, so he has no right to judge me.

I often feel that I am wasting my time. Not because I am trying to make myself feel less guilty, because I have never felt guilty over being an atheist, I am a good person and I try to help and be nice to others. I see no evidence for god, and neither do I see evidence for the fictitious elf that my username is based off of. No, I feel I am wasting my time, because I have caused no one to think. I think about these issues. Often times I have often questioned my beliefs, but I feel that those I most try to get to question, and most should, do not.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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12/8/2013 1:20:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Interesting forum, Lordgrae.

In a lot of ways I agree with you. But my thinking is that God may actually be playing the part of the devil, and that it is up to humankind to decide what kind of world it wants to live in, though there will most certainly be consequences for our choices.

Sadly I do believe God is immoral and this has made me very depressed, though surprisingly I am finding ways to deal with it. Maybe God is immoral and honestly doesn't care that humanity perceives him that way. Maybe the decision to make this world a wonderful place resides entirely on us!

In some ways this reinforces your atheistic philosophy - but now places even more burden on you and me (and all of humanity) because there is a God, only that he plays the parts of a devil.

I'm still trying to make sense of my experiences, but I think this is what is happening.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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12/8/2013 2:30:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2013 4:51:53 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/7/2013 2:18:50 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/7/2013 2:12:51 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/7/2013 11:28:52 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

God is accountable to none, what He does is good by definition.

Man is accountable before God.

Why do you guys judge God like a man ?!!

Because that is the only measure we have to judge something. If god wished us to view him as good and existent, he would have given everyone the ability to be able to come to that conclusion, instead of just asserting so.

Why should he care about your opinion ?! He owns the world anyway and He is the ultimate truth and reality, if you're not able to find him with your reasoning , then this hurts none except your own self.

Well, based on how much every major god seems to want everyone to recognize and praise him, he would seem to care about people's perceptions of him.


He requires it, He doesn't need it.

And it's false when you say this is the only measure, the creator isn't equal to the creation, you can't even judge Him and you will not when He can judge you and He will, you're just wasting your time to feel less guilty of your own injustice.

Well then he can't judge me. My standards are way to high for god, so he has no right to judge me.

You're arrogant , a creature can't ever know better than its creator, you're deluded unfortunately..

I often feel that I am wasting my time. Not because I am trying to make myself feel less guilty, because I have never felt guilty over being an atheist, I am a good person and I try to help and be nice to others. I see no evidence for god, and neither do I see evidence for the fictitious elf that my username is based off of. No, I feel I am wasting my time, because I have caused no one to think. I think about these issues. Often times I have often questioned my beliefs, but I feel that those I most try to get to question, and most should, do not.

So you believe in morals but not in God, and dare claim your morals are higher , what a paradox ! how can there be morals if there is no creator, and therefore no purpose! and if you assume there is God, how can you ever be so arrogant to think you know better than He!

If you believe in Morals you are a theist in denial , denial due to arrogance.

Let me ask you , what are your morals, what is good, what is bad and why ?!
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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12/8/2013 9:19:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2013 2:30:58 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/7/2013 4:51:53 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/7/2013 2:18:50 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/7/2013 2:12:51 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/7/2013 11:28:52 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

God is accountable to none, what He does is good by definition.

Man is accountable before God.

Why do you guys judge God like a man ?!!

Because that is the only measure we have to judge something. If god wished us to view him as good and existent, he would have given everyone the ability to be able to come to that conclusion, instead of just asserting so.

Why should he care about your opinion ?! He owns the world anyway and He is the ultimate truth and reality, if you're not able to find him with your reasoning , then this hurts none except your own self.

Well, based on how much every major god seems to want everyone to recognize and praise him, he would seem to care about people's perceptions of him.


He requires it, He doesn't need it.

And it's false when you say this is the only measure, the creator isn't equal to the creation, you can't even judge Him and you will not when He can judge you and He will, you're just wasting your time to feel less guilty of your own injustice.

Well then he can't judge me. My standards are way to high for god, so he has no right to judge me.

You're arrogant , a creature can't ever know better than its creator, you're deluded unfortunately..

I often feel that I am wasting my time. Not because I am trying to make myself feel less guilty, because I have never felt guilty over being an atheist, I am a good person and I try to help and be nice to others. I see no evidence for god, and neither do I see evidence for the fictitious elf that my username is based off of. No, I feel I am wasting my time, because I have caused no one to think. I think about these issues. Often times I have often questioned my beliefs, but I feel that those I most try to get to question, and most should, do not.

So you believe in morals but not in God, and dare claim your morals are higher , what a paradox ! how can there be morals if there is no creator, and therefore no purpose! and if you assume there is God, how can you ever be so arrogant to think you know better than He!

If you believe in Morals you are a theist in denial , denial due to arrogance.

Let me ask you , what are your morals, what is good, what is bad and why ?!

Name just ONE objective moral value.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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12/9/2013 8:25:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/8/2013 9:19:38 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/8/2013 2:30:58 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/7/2013 4:51:53 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/7/2013 2:18:50 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/7/2013 2:12:51 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 12/7/2013 11:28:52 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/3/2013 9:13:21 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
look, if you could stop all evil in the world, with little to no effort, and end all the problems that are barreling us towards death, and end hate, and end war, or if you are for free will, at least get rid of things like natural disasters and famine, or sudden infant death, and you didn't, isn't that pretty much the same as letting them happen? And letting something bad happen, when little to no effort would stop it, is itself bad.

God is accountable to none, what He does is good by definition.

Man is accountable before God.

Why do you guys judge God like a man ?!!

Because that is the only measure we have to judge something. If god wished us to view him as good and existent, he would have given everyone the ability to be able to come to that conclusion, instead of just asserting so.

Why should he care about your opinion ?! He owns the world anyway and He is the ultimate truth and reality, if you're not able to find him with your reasoning , then this hurts none except your own self.

Well, based on how much every major god seems to want everyone to recognize and praise him, he would seem to care about people's perceptions of him.


He requires it, He doesn't need it.

And it's false when you say this is the only measure, the creator isn't equal to the creation, you can't even judge Him and you will not when He can judge you and He will, you're just wasting your time to feel less guilty of your own injustice.

Well then he can't judge me. My standards are way to high for god, so he has no right to judge me.

You're arrogant , a creature can't ever know better than its creator, you're deluded unfortunately..

I often feel that I am wasting my time. Not because I am trying to make myself feel less guilty, because I have never felt guilty over being an atheist, I am a good person and I try to help and be nice to others. I see no evidence for god, and neither do I see evidence for the fictitious elf that my username is based off of. No, I feel I am wasting my time, because I have caused no one to think. I think about these issues. Often times I have often questioned my beliefs, but I feel that those I most try to get to question, and most should, do not.

So you believe in morals but not in God, and dare claim your morals are higher , what a paradox ! how can there be morals if there is no creator, and therefore no purpose! and if you assume there is God, how can you ever be so arrogant to think you know better than He!

If you believe in Morals you are a theist in denial , denial due to arrogance.

Let me ask you , what are your morals, what is good, what is bad and why ?!

Name just ONE objective moral value.

You asking me or the Athiest ?

If Me, whatever God commands is Good, whatever He forbids is Evil:

Examples of Good : Worship God alone, be good to parents (whatever religion they are) , be Just to everyone, Be truthful, trustworthy, kind, give charity, and gifts , help others , visit the sick and so on, a lot of other things God commanded..

Examples for Evil : Oppression, fornication, theft, Treachery, associate partners with God in worship, eat whatever foods God forbade outside necessity,

Why it's objectively Moral because the creation has the purpose the creator gave it, and His commands give life to the purpose of life!

If you were asking the Athiest He can not answer this question he will fool himself and say there are no morals and kill his topic to avoid something bigger.