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Why didn't Allah protect his book?

arabrab
Posts: 3
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12/4/2013 8:41:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Islam claims the Bible was sent by Allah but than it was corrupted by the Christians. If Allah sent his word why would he not protect it? Who protects the Qu'ran? Allah or the Muslims are protecting it? Sheesh... scary stuff right there...
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/4/2013 8:45:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/4/2013 8:41:10 AM, arabrab wrote:
Islam claims the Bible was sent by Allah but than it was corrupted by the Christians. If Allah sent his word why would he not protect it? Who protects the Qu'ran? Allah or the Muslims are protecting it? Sheesh... scary stuff right there...

God never had to protect the Quran because He created it as a deception right away. The new testament of the Bible was created by God to totally deceive everyone who reads it. The original prophecies written by the prophets of old are the only words that God protected because He uses us saints to read them so He can interpret them.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/4/2013 3:22:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/4/2013 8:52:04 AM, arabrab wrote:
@Born Of God

What?!?!

No Christian or Muslim knows what a saint is or how God uses us to reveal Himself and His eternal plan.

Christians and saints were deceived by antichrists who stole our written and spoken words and used them for their own selfish religious purposes.

There was no man named Jesus who was a god on earth. However, we saints were used by God to speak and write for Him. The Roman and Jewish antichrists were the ones who made up a god on earth for all their believers to believe in. This is how Christianity got started and 325 a.d. Rome started the official religion of Christianity through a governing body named the Vatican. The Vatican is made up of antichrists and false prophets who had no idea who our Creator was.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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12/4/2013 3:29:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/4/2013 8:41:10 AM, arabrab wrote:
Islam claims the Bible was sent by Allah but than it was corrupted by the Christians. If Allah sent his word why would he not protect it? Who protects the Qu'ran? Allah or the Muslims are protecting it? Sheesh... scary stuff right there...

Response: Islam never claims the Bible was sent by Allah. Islam teaches that The Taurat (Torah) and Injil (Gospel) was sent, and the responsibility of preservation was by the people. However, the people corrupted it, and the Qur'an was revealed later and is guarded and protected by Allah from corruption.

The Bible is a compilation of those corrupted scriptures. So in it are the words of Allah (God) or some form of it, but not in its entirety.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/4/2013 3:35:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/4/2013 3:29:42 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/4/2013 8:41:10 AM, arabrab wrote:
Islam claims the Bible was sent by Allah but than it was corrupted by the Christians. If Allah sent his word why would he not protect it? Who protects the Qu'ran? Allah or the Muslims are protecting it? Sheesh... scary stuff right there...

Response: Islam never claims the Bible was sent by Allah. Islam teaches that The Taurat (Torah) and Injil (Gospel) was sent, and the responsibility of preservation was by the people. However, the people corrupted it, and the Qur'an was revealed later and is guarded and protected by Allah from corruption.

The Bible is a compilation of those corrupted scriptures. So in it are the words of Allah (God) or some form of it, but not in its entirety.

The Quran came from lying Christians who used ideas from the Bible to help Mohammad write it. Not one word in the Quran came directly from our Creator. Most of the religious ideas in the new testament came from God's plan called the beast.
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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12/4/2013 4:54:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/4/2013 3:29:42 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/4/2013 8:41:10 AM, arabrab wrote:
Islam claims the Bible was sent by Allah but than it was corrupted by the Christians. If Allah sent his word why would he not protect it? Who protects the Qu'ran? Allah or the Muslims are protecting it? Sheesh... scary stuff right there...

Response: Islam never claims the Bible was sent by Allah. Islam teaches that The Taurat (Torah) and Injil (Gospel) was sent, and the responsibility of preservation was by the people. However, the people corrupted it, and the Qur'an was revealed later and is guarded and protected by Allah from corruption.

The Bible is a compilation of those corrupted scriptures. So in it are the words of Allah (God) or some form of it, but not in its entirety.
Which bits are which?
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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12/4/2013 5:18:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/4/2013 3:29:42 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/4/2013 8:41:10 AM, arabrab wrote:
Islam claims the Bible was sent by Allah but than it was corrupted by the Christians. If Allah sent his word why would he not protect it? Who protects the Qu'ran? Allah or the Muslims are protecting it? Sheesh... scary stuff right there...

Response: Islam never claims the Bible was sent by Allah. Islam teaches that The Taurat (Torah) and Injil (Gospel) was sent, and the responsibility of preservation was by the people. However, the people corrupted it, and the Qur'an was revealed later and is guarded and protected by Allah from corruption.

The Bible is a compilation of those corrupted scriptures. So in it are the words of Allah (God) or some form of it, but not in its entirety.

The Injil is another word for Bible in the Arab world with the first being "Kitab Al-Moqadass." I suppose you mean the original Injil/Bible. I have never seen anyone who is a native speaker of Arabic call the original bible the "Injil" and the modern-day bible something else.

I'm going to raise one other objection but I don't intend to be rude or anything, just display my skepticism.

I find it hard to believe that an omniscient God would sent his first two books and make the people protect them, to then learn from his mistake and send a third book protected by Him? An omniscient God shouldn't have made the mistake of sending books protected by humans. Don't you think? (I'm assuming here that the Qur'an was preserved which is a controversial topic).
TG2333
Posts: 9
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12/5/2013 7:49:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
For people who are saying that the quran was a copy paste from other religions, Mohammed didn't know how to read and write

now first of all, lets say that you found a copy paste verse right ? well it won't make any difference because first came ms'haf then the torah then zbor then the bible and then the quran, they are all connected to each other
bulproof
Posts: 25,308
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12/5/2013 7:55:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 7:42:42 AM, TG2333 wrote:
The people corrupted it, and besides why would you want to keep the older version ?
Can you produce the original bible?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/5/2013 10:00:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 7:49:13 AM, TG2333 wrote:
For people who are saying that the quran was a copy paste from other religions, Mohammed didn't know how to read and write

now first of all, lets say that you found a copy paste verse right ? well it won't make any difference because first came ms'haf then the torah then zbor then the bible and then the quran, they are all connected to each other

Mohammad was nothing until he met some Roman Catholics with their false religious ideas and interpretations of the prophecies. It's amazing how lies can be spread, even through someone who couldn't read or write.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/5/2013 10:01:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 7:51:39 AM, TG2333 wrote:
bornofgod** you are a confused man

I'm the only saint in this world that isn't confused by this world. It's too bad you're a part of this world.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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12/5/2013 11:12:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/4/2013 5:18:32 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:


The Injil is another word for Bible in the Arab world with the first being "Kitab Al-Moqadass." I suppose you mean the original Injil/Bible. I have never seen anyone who is a native speaker of Arabic call the original bible the "Injil" and the modern-day bible something else.

I'm going to raise one other objection but I don't intend to be rude or anything, just display my skepticism.

I find it hard to believe that an omniscient God would sent his first two books and make the people protect them, to then learn from his mistake and send a third book protected by Him? An omniscient God shouldn't have made the mistake of sending books protected by humans. Don't you think? (I'm assuming here that the Qur'an was preserved which is a controversial topic).

Response: The Injil is the Arabic word for the revelation originally sent to Isa (RA) Jesus. Whether an Arab wrongfully calls it the Bible has no relevance to what the Injil is.

As for the rest, Allah never intended to preserve the previous revelations. So it was not a mistake when the preservation of the text was in the hands of the people. The people at the time did not have the discipline or understanding to receive revelation and completely grasp it. That is why Allah did not preserve it. Instead, he promised within those scriptures that a prophet was to come to confirm the previous scriptures (Muhammad) and a new revelation, the Qur'an, will be preserved.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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12/5/2013 11:13:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/4/2013 3:35:12 PM, bornofgod wrote:

The Quran came from lying Christians who used ideas from the Bible to help Mohammad write it. Not one word in the Quran came directly from our Creator. Most of the religious ideas in the new testament came from God's plan called the beast.

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof? The fact that you presented absolutely none, supports the fact that your claim is baseless and proves nothing.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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12/5/2013 11:14:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/4/2013 4:54:17 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/4/2013 3:29:42 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/4/2013 8:41:10 AM, arabrab wrote:
Islam claims the Bible was sent by Allah but than it was corrupted by the Christians. If Allah sent his word why would he not protect it? Who protects the Qu'ran? Allah or the Muslims are protecting it? Sheesh... scary stuff right there...

Response: Islam never claims the Bible was sent by Allah. Islam teaches that The Taurat (Torah) and Injil (Gospel) was sent, and the responsibility of preservation was by the people. However, the people corrupted it, and the Qur'an was revealed later and is guarded and protected by Allah from corruption.

The Bible is a compilation of those corrupted scriptures. So in it are the words of Allah (God) or some form of it, but not in its entirety.
Which bits are which?

Response: That which can be confirmed by the Qur'an are reliable.
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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12/5/2013 11:46:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The people at the time did not have the discipline or understanding to receive revelation and completely grasp it.

1- You want us to believe that an all-powerful, all-knowing God couldn't or was unable to teach people before Mohammad his message when he himself created them and takes the blame for their misunderstanding. In other words, if an omnipotent, omniscient God wanted his message understood then that should be easy as he is all-powerful and all-knowing. When you argue from "divine" inability and weakness and state that He instead provided scriptures which He knew would be distorted before His eyes, then you contradict God's traits and defend the existence of an imperfect entity.

2- The message of Islam is not so complicated to follow and was understood at first by unlettered Bedouins who don't seem to have been more intelligent, rational or educated than the Jews before them.

3- Have the Muslims really understood God's message in this final revelation? If you look at Islamic societies, I'm sure you'd find many sects and people that do horrible things in the name of Islam.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, so I apologize if I sound assaultive.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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12/5/2013 12:39:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 11:46:02 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
The people at the time did not have the discipline or understanding to receive revelation and completely grasp it.


1- You want us to believe that an all-powerful, all-knowing God couldn't or was unable to teach people before Mohammad his message when he himself created them and takes the blame for their misunderstanding. In other words, if an omnipotent, omniscient God wanted his message understood then that should be easy as he is all-powerful and all-knowing. When you argue from "divine" inability and weakness and state that He instead provided scriptures which He knew would be distorted before His eyes, then you contradict God's traits and defend the existence of an imperfect entity.

2- The message of Islam is not so complicated to follow and was understood at first by unlettered Bedouins who don't seem to have been more intelligent, rational or educated than the Jews before them.

3- Have the Muslims really understood God's message in this final revelation? If you look at Islamic societies, I'm sure you'd find many sects and people that do horrible things in the name of Islam.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, so I apologize if I sound assaultive.

Response: You are not being rude. Ask whatever you like, even if it may be the most controversial.

As for what you raised:

1. No one stated that Allah(swt) was or is unable to preserve the previous revelations. Allah can easily make evil disappear. He can easily make people understand. But Allah purposely chose not to. That is the fundamental point you are missing. The purpose of revelation is to give signs and indications of truth, then you yourself, using your free will, to choose to follow or not, and preserve it.

2. The message of Islam is not complicated, but was harder to grasp and follow for the people before Muhammad's time. If you are disagreeing, then it is required of you to provide evidence for it. We believe in Allah and know his word is correct.

3. By questioning whether muslims today understand Islam, when people today are more intellectual and understanding than the people of the past, that alone serves as evidence that the people of the past would find it difficult to grasp.
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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12/5/2013 1:06:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 12:39:43 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/5/2013 11:46:02 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
The people at the time did not have the discipline or understanding to receive revelation and completely grasp it.


1- You want us to believe that an all-powerful, all-knowing God couldn't or was unable to teach people before Mohammad his message when he himself created them and takes the blame for their misunderstanding. In other words, if an omnipotent, omniscient God wanted his message understood then that should be easy as he is all-powerful and all-knowing. When you argue from "divine" inability and : As for what you raised:

1. No one stated that Allah(swt) was or is unable to preserve the previous revelations. Allah can easily make evil disappear. He can easily make people understand. But Allah purposely chose not to. That is the fundamental point you are missing. The purpose of revelation is to give signs and indications of truth, then you yourself, using your free will, to choose to follow or not, and preserve it.

But why did he not apply the same measure for the Qur'an? I'm assuming that you believe that the Qur'an was preserved but the others were not, but you argue that the previous scriptures were not preserved for the purposes of free will. I don't understand the change of plan or why God had to shift gears suddenly if he wasn't mistaken and his plans were working out.

2. The message of Islam is not complicated, but was harder to grasp and follow for the people before Muhammad's time. If you are disagreeing, then it is required of you to provide evidence for it. We believe in Allah and know his word is correct.


This goes against the BoP. You make the positive claim that "The message of Islam is not complicated, but that it was harder to grasp and follow for the people before Muhammad's time." Why? Because of what? Let us assume that the Qur'an's description of the golden calf and the failures of the Jewish societies are correct. What do you think made the Jews before the unlettered Bedouins unable to follow God's message like the unlettered Bedouins?

3. By questioning whether Muslims today understand Islam, when people today are more intellectual and understanding than the people of the past, that alone serves as evidence that the people of the past would find it difficult to grasp.

To draw further on this, don't you think it would be a smart move for God to have a fourth revelation these days when we you claim we are more educated and rational to evaluate matters? Why would he declare Mohammad as the final prophet at such times of illiteracy and ignorance when more promising times are prone to come afterwards?
Fatihah
Posts: 7,770
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12/5/2013 1:21:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 1:06:42 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:


But why did he not apply the same measure for the Qur'an? I'm assuming that you believe that the Qur'an was preserved but the others were not, but you argue that the previous scriptures were not preserved for the purposes of free will. I don't understand the change of plan or why God had to shift gears suddenly if he wasn't mistaken and his plans were working out.

Response: As I've already stated, the previous scriptures were not preserved because the people of the time were not able to grasp it. The people of the time were too far removed from being righteous and acquiring understanding. They were too backwards. So the previous revelations were provided only as a remedy to heal the people of that particular time. It was not for all time. That is why it was not preserved because it was only for that time. Once the people improved in their righteousness and understanding, then Allah revealed the Qur'an.

This goes against the BoP. You make the positive claim that "The message of Islam is not complicated, but that it was harder to grasp and follow for the people before Muhammad's time." Why? Because of what? Let us assume that the Qur'an's description of the golden calf and the failures of the Jewish societies are correct. What do you think made the Jews before the unlettered Bedouins unable to follow God's message like the unlettered Bedouins?

Response: Again, the people were too far removed from righteousness and understanding. These were people who were very barbaric to each other and worshipped objects as Gods. A prime example is the Golden Calf story. The people worshipped a Golden Calf the very second Moses left them, despite the fact that Moses just told them it was wrong and they themselves witnessed his miracles. The story is a prime example of what the people did even after clear evidence was revealed. That is why the revelation was not preserved, because it would be pointless to do so. Most people still disbelieved and still were unjust, even when clear evidence was presented.

To draw further on this, don't you think it would be a smart move for God to have a fourth revelation these days when we you claim we are more educated and rational to evaluate matters? Why would he declare Mohammad as the final prophet at such times of illiteracy and ignorance when more promising times are prone to come afterwards?

Response: The Qur'an and the example of Muhammad is perfect. When something reaches perfection, then adding to it will make it imperfect. That is why Muhammad is the last and final prophet and the Qur'an is the last revelation.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/5/2013 8:30:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 11:13:49 AM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/4/2013 3:35:12 PM, bornofgod wrote:

The Quran came from lying Christians who used ideas from the Bible to help Mohammad write it. Not one word in the Quran came directly from our Creator. Most of the religious ideas in the new testament came from God's plan called the beast.

Response: There's the statement. Where's the proof? The fact that you presented absolutely none, supports the fact that your claim is baseless and proves nothing.

It's easy to see when you have the hidden knowledge of God to understand what is true or not. All us saints know that religions of this world are false and the religious ones who practice religious ideas are totally deceived of who they are in the mind of our Creator. .
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/5/2013 8:33:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 12:39:43 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/5/2013 11:46:02 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
The people at the time did not have the discipline or understanding to receive revelation and completely grasp it.


1- You want us to believe that an all-powerful, all-knowing God couldn't or was unable to teach people before Mohammad his message when he himself created them and takes the blame for their misunderstanding. In other words, if an omnipotent, omniscient God wanted his message understood then that should be easy as he is all-powerful and all-knowing. When you argue from "divine" inability and weakness and state that He instead provided scriptures which He knew would be distorted before His eyes, then you contradict God's traits and defend the existence of an imperfect entity.

2- The message of Islam is not so complicated to follow and was understood at first by unlettered Bedouins who don't seem to have been more intelligent, rational or educated than the Jews before them.

3- Have the Muslims really understood God's message in this final revelation? If you look at Islamic societies, I'm sure you'd find many sects and people that do horrible things in the name of Islam.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, so I apologize if I sound assaultive.

Response: You are not being rude. Ask whatever you like, even if it may be the most controversial.

As for what you raised:

1. No one stated that Allah(swt) was or is unable to preserve the previous revelations. Allah can easily make evil disappear. He can easily make people understand. But Allah purposely chose not to. That is the fundamental point you are missing. The purpose of revelation is to give signs and indications of truth, then you yourself, using your free will, to choose to follow or not, and preserve it.

2. The message of Islam is not complicated, but was harder to grasp and follow for the people before Muhammad's time. If you are disagreeing, then it is required of you to provide evidence for it. We believe in Allah and know his word is correct.

3. By questioning whether muslims today understand Islam, when people today are more intellectual and understanding than the people of the past, that alone serves as evidence that the people of the past would find it difficult to grasp.

There's no such thing as free will. We are all doing God's will no matter if you are under His delusion called the Old Covenant "veil" or have the hidden knowledge that all us saints possess.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/5/2013 8:35:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 1:21:05 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/5/2013 1:06:42 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:


But why did he not apply the same measure for the Qur'an? I'm assuming that you believe that the Qur'an was preserved but the others were not, but you argue that the previous scriptures were not preserved for the purposes of free will. I don't understand the change of plan or why God had to shift gears suddenly if he wasn't mistaken and his plans were working out.

Response: As I've already stated, the previous scriptures were not preserved because the people of the time were not able to grasp it. The people of the time were too far removed from being righteous and acquiring understanding. They were too backwards. So the previous revelations were provided only as a remedy to heal the people of that particular time. It was not for all time. That is why it was not preserved because it was only for that time. Once the people improved in their righteousness and understanding, then Allah revealed the Qur'an.


This goes against the BoP. You make the positive claim that "The message of Islam is not complicated, but that it was harder to grasp and follow for the people before Muhammad's time." Why? Because of what? Let us assume that the Qur'an's description of the golden calf and the failures of the Jewish societies are correct. What do you think made the Jews before the unlettered Bedouins unable to follow God's message like the unlettered Bedouins?

Response: Again, the people were too far removed from righteousness and understanding. These were people who were very barbaric to each other and worshipped objects as Gods. A prime example is the Golden Calf story. The people worshipped a Golden Calf the very second Moses left them, despite the fact that Moses just told them it was wrong and they themselves witnessed his miracles. The story is a prime example of what the people did even after clear evidence was revealed. That is why the revelation was not preserved, because it would be pointless to do so. Most people still disbelieved and still were unjust, even when clear evidence was presented.


To draw further on this, don't you think it would be a smart move for God to have a fourth revelation these days when we you claim we are more educated and rational to evaluate matters? Why would he declare Mohammad as the final prophet at such times of illiteracy and ignorance when more promising times are prone to come afterwards?

Response: The Qur'an and the example of Muhammad is perfect. When something reaches perfection, then adding to it will make it imperfect. That is why Muhammad is the last and final prophet and the Qur'an is the last revelation.

You lie just as much as those lying Christians who can't obey God's commandments. Only us saints can obey God's commandments because we're the only one's who know we are the law of God.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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12/5/2013 9:04:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hey everyone, please vote on this debate I had with the author of this thread.

http://www.debate.org...
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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12/6/2013 6:11:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/4/2013 8:41:10 AM, arabrab wrote:
Islam claims the Bible was sent by Allah but than it was corrupted by the Christians. If Allah sent his word why would he not protect it? Who protects the Qu'ran? Allah or the Muslims are protecting it? Sheesh... scary stuff right there...

Well , the Torah and the Gospel, (the bible is a big word) Are revelations of God to Moses and Jesus, the Jesus and Christians corrupted the words from their intended meanings, but did you realise that in the Quran God command the Jews and Christians to stick to their scripture ?

There is enough in the Torah and Gospel to know the truth, for those who are careful to know the truth.

Men are accountable to study the scripture and keep it pure, that's the scholars job .

I don't know if your read the Gospel of John, but there is some verse where Jesus promises his disciples that he will send a comforter that will remind them what they forgot, so they were going to forget part of his speech, which means part of the Gospel.

As for Quran Allah is able to cause it's remembrance or it's forgetting, you know that it's prophesised by Mohammed peace be upon him that by the end of times Quran will be taken away from men kind, by causing the death of all scholars.