Total Posts:43|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Law of Thelema - Fundamental rule

21st_Century_Occultist
Posts: 65
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

Commonly misunderstood and straw manned, the Law says the each individual should seek out their True Will, less vaguely that they should find the proper path for themselves in life and perfect themselves relative to the individual. Further, we should leave out egotistical needs, such as belief that our subjective systems must be objectively true, out of the process as well as not interfering with the Will of others.
The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 7:10:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

Commonly misunderstood and straw manned, the Law says the each individual should seek out their True Will, less vaguely that they should find the proper path for themselves in life and perfect themselves relative to the individual. Further, we should leave out egotistical needs, such as belief that our subjective systems must be objectively true, out of the process as well as not interfering with the Will of others.

Seems like it could be too easily abused. Plus, what if your "proper path" was in it of itself egotistical? How could you have a leader if nobody could declare egotistical needs?
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
21st_Century_Occultist
Posts: 65
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 7:29:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 7:10:41 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

Commonly misunderstood and straw manned, the Law says the each individual should seek out their True Will, less vaguely that they should find the proper path for themselves in life and perfect themselves relative to the individual. Further, we should leave out egotistical needs, such as belief that our subjective systems must be objectively true, out of the process as well as not interfering with the Will of others.

Seems like it could be too easily abused. Plus, what if your "proper path" was in it of itself egotistical? How could you have a leader if nobody could declare egotistical needs?

It's not really about not being egotistical, that'd be impossible. It's more about not letting your ego interfere with others. Like, we all want to believe our own system is correct, but it's almost completely subjective. So, don't go saying "no, the symbol you're using or path you're taking is wrong" just because you believe yourself correct.
The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 7:35:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 7:29:06 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:10:41 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

Commonly misunderstood and straw manned, the Law says the each individual should seek out their True Will, less vaguely that they should find the proper path for themselves in life and perfect themselves relative to the individual. Further, we should leave out egotistical needs, such as belief that our subjective systems must be objectively true, out of the process as well as not interfering with the Will of others.

Seems like it could be too easily abused. Plus, what if your "proper path" was in it of itself egotistical? How could you have a leader if nobody could declare egotistical needs?

It's not really about not being egotistical, that'd be impossible. It's more about not letting your ego interfere with others. Like, we all want to believe our own system is correct, but it's almost completely subjective. So, don't go saying "no, the symbol you're using or path you're taking is wrong" just because you believe yourself correct.

It would be impossible to get people to follow the idea of not criticizing a person's path. There is too much influence from religion and parents to get people to just not critique a person's path.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
21st_Century_Occultist
Posts: 65
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 7:39:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 7:35:42 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:29:06 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:10:41 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

Commonly misunderstood and straw manned, the Law says the each individual should seek out their True Will, less vaguely that they should find the proper path for themselves in life and perfect themselves relative to the individual. Further, we should leave out egotistical needs, such as belief that our subjective systems must be objectively true, out of the process as well as not interfering with the Will of others.

Seems like it could be too easily abused. Plus, what if your "proper path" was in it of itself egotistical? How could you have a leader if nobody could declare egotistical needs?

It's not really about not being egotistical, that'd be impossible. It's more about not letting your ego interfere with others. Like, we all want to believe our own system is correct, but it's almost completely subjective. So, don't go saying "no, the symbol you're using or path you're taking is wrong" just because you believe yourself correct.

It would be impossible to get people to follow the idea of not criticizing a person's path. There is too much influence from religion and parents to get people to just not critique a person's path.

The question was more in theory than practice. Obviously, and sadly, it would never work.
The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion
James.Price
Posts: 109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 8:50:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 7:39:48 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:35:42 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:29:06 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:10:41 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

The question was more in theory than practice. Obviously, and sadly, it would never work.

Nonsense. This is the only rule in all of human history that is always obeyed, and can never be resisted. I defy anyone to cite a single example of it's violation by any person, living or dead.
James.Price
Posts: 109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 9:06:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The "Law of Thelema," as I mentioned, is inescapable, and must always be obeyed by every living person, deranged or counter-compelled or not. Environmental imperatives may limit the freest range of action, but never the fact that our choices, though restricted, remain always our own.

Most people are ignorant of this, or wish that it was not true.
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 9:09:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 8:50:11 PM, James.Price wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:39:48 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:35:42 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:29:06 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:10:41 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

The question was more in theory than practice. Obviously, and sadly, it would never work.

Nonsense. This is the only rule in all of human history that is always obeyed, and can never be resisted. I defy anyone to cite a single example of it's violation by any person, living or dead.

Everyone that participated in the Crusades, all religious-based terrorist sects, anyone that is on one side of a debate.

Pretty much nobody follows it.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
James.Price
Posts: 109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 9:31:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 9:09:11 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 8:50:11 PM, James.Price wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:39:48 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:35:42 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:29:06 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:10:41 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

The question was more in theory than practice. Obviously, and sadly, it would never work.

Nonsense. This is the only rule in all of human history that is always obeyed, and can never be resisted. I defy anyone to cite a single example of it's violation by any person, living or dead.

Everyone that participated in the Crusades, all religious-based terrorist sects, anyone that is on one side of a debate.

Pretty much nobody follows it.

"Pretty much." I certainly am unconvinced that you believe that. I think that you undervalue the goodness of human nature, how strongly the urge to love and respect one another is. I think you also undervalue how powerful your own will is.

I will prove it, if you are willing to help me do so.

I ask that you present to me a single example of you doing anything that violated your true will, no matter how slight. Any unwanted action at all will prove me a fool. We are not counting the time it rained on you, or the time that you were robbed of your milk money in elementary school. I am looking for an action that you did, but that violated your will.

I will wait.
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 9:35:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 9:31:49 PM, James.Price wrote:
At 12/10/2013 9:09:11 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 8:50:11 PM, James.Price wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:39:48 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:35:42 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:29:06 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:10:41 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

The question was more in theory than practice. Obviously, and sadly, it would never work.

Nonsense. This is the only rule in all of human history that is always obeyed, and can never be resisted. I defy anyone to cite a single example of it's violation by any person, living or dead.

Everyone that participated in the Crusades, all religious-based terrorist sects, anyone that is on one side of a debate.

Pretty much nobody follows it.

"Pretty much." I certainly am unconvinced that you believe that. I think that you undervalue the goodness of human nature, how strongly the urge to love and respect one another is. I think you also undervalue how powerful your own will is.

I will prove it, if you are willing to help me do so.

I ask that you present to me a single example of you doing anything that violated your true will, no matter how slight. Any unwanted action at all will prove me a fool. We are not counting the time it rained on you, or the time that you were robbed of your milk money in elementary school. I am looking for an action that you did, but that violated your will.

I will wait.

Firstly, how are we defining "true will". Secondly, why are we talking away weather and the actions of others?
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
James.Price
Posts: 109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 9:54:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago

Firstly, how are we defining "true will". Secondly, why are we talking away weather and the actions of others?

Your "will" is by nature your own. This represents the specific way that you manifest your desires into physical action. The chain of custody here might be, results of physical action are preceded by the action. The action is preceded by the will to act. This defines my view of the term.

I might also point out that this thing, this "will," represents an object of awe for me. I cannot understand this phenomena, and consider it's very existence to be a thing of great wonder and mystery.

Why should we exclude environmental factors? Because most of our actions are not determined by our choices directly - most of our actions are made brainlessly, and are compelled simply by environmental momentum. The few actual decisions we make in our lives are of monumental importance to us, therefore. Again, to the importance of our will in creating these few decisions. When we act, we are driven by our environment, but how we interact with that environment is exclusively dictated by our will. The stronger our realization that we can change this environmental momentum, the stronger our impact on our world will be, with the result being that we will live more consciously.

We cannot include these as we are testing the impact that the power and force of our will has on how we make decisions. Remember that other people and things are also obeying their own will, and flowing forward under their own environmental momentum as well. If we accept that our will is as powerful as I say, it must also be equally strong in others as it is in ourselves.
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 10:01:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 9:54:15 PM, James.Price wrote:

Firstly, how are we defining "true will". Secondly, why are we talking away weather and the actions of others?

Your "will" is by nature your own. This represents the specific way that you manifest your desires into physical action. The chain of custody here might be, results of physical action are preceded by the action. The action is preceded by the will to act. This defines my view of the term.

I might also point out that this thing, this "will," represents an object of awe for me. I cannot understand this phenomena, and consider it's very existence to be a thing of great wonder and mystery.

Why should we exclude environmental factors? Because most of our actions are not determined by our choices directly - most of our actions are made brainlessly, and are compelled simply by environmental momentum. The few actual decisions we make in our lives are of monumental importance to us, therefore. Again, to the importance of our will in creating these few decisions. When we act, we are driven by our environment, but how we interact with that environment is exclusively dictated by our will. The stronger our realization that we can change this environmental momentum, the stronger our impact on our world will be, with the result being that we will live more consciously.

We cannot include these as we are testing the impact that the power and force of our will has on how we make decisions. Remember that other people and things are also obeying their own will, and flowing forward under their own environmental momentum as well. If we accept that our will is as powerful as I say, it must also be equally strong in others as it is in ourselves.

Well, technically speaking, unless you were removed from society at birth and managed to survive, all of your actions are in some way affected by other people. Even those actions that have "monumental importance" are in some ways the effect of various peoples interactions with you. I probably wouldn't have gone into astronomy if I hadn't been exposed to it by my parents.

Therefore, for me to describe something that was even done solely by my own will, without the intervention of others, in such a way that nature didn't interact either way very well be impossible, let alone find one that is or is not of my own true will.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 10:10:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

Commonly misunderstood and straw manned, the Law says the each individual should seek out their True Will, less vaguely that they should find the proper path for themselves in life and perfect themselves relative to the individual. Further, we should leave out egotistical needs, such as belief that our subjective systems must be objectively true, out of the process as well as not interfering with the Will of others.

This is impossible since we're all under the Will of our Creator, which is His eternal plan for His creation.
James.Price
Posts: 109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 10:14:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well, technically speaking, unless you were removed from society at birth and managed to survive, all of your actions are in some way affected by other people. Even those actions that have "monumental importance" are in some ways the effect of various peoples interactions with you. I probably wouldn't have gone into astronomy if I hadn't been exposed to it by my parents.

Therefore, for me to describe something that was even done solely by my own will, without the intervention of others, in such a way that nature didn't interact either way very well be impossible, let alone find one that is or is not of my own true will.

Excellent! You are describing the "environmental momentum" that I alluded to earlier. So we now have that as a common frame of reference. Next, we can hopefully acknowledge that you make the 'decisions' that you 'want' to make, yes? They feel good in the context of the environment in which they are made. You have done as you wanted to do... but were always under something of an illusion that you were making the choices, and not your environment. This is a complex concept, so I am happy that you have understood this.

The trick, however, is that now we must define where 'you' end, and your environment begins. We cannot say that you are subject to your surrounding world until we know which part of you is external, and which is internal. Your parents exposed you to astronomy, and now that discipline has become incorporated into the composite that forms what "you" are. Your parents, although certainly not a physical part of your body, are also certainly a critical part of your personal identity. They share a larger, common identity component with you: your family. The part of "you" that shares this familial identity with your parents informed your decisions on astronomy. Not your pinpoint physical body, but your larger incorporate identity was (in this case) simply talking to itself.
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 10:19:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 10:14:05 PM, James.Price wrote:
Well, technically speaking, unless you were removed from society at birth and managed to survive, all of your actions are in some way affected by other people. Even those actions that have "monumental importance" are in some ways the effect of various peoples interactions with you. I probably wouldn't have gone into astronomy if I hadn't been exposed to it by my parents.

Therefore, for me to describe something that was even done solely by my own will, without the intervention of others, in such a way that nature didn't interact either way very well be impossible, let alone find one that is or is not of my own true will.

Excellent! You are describing the "environmental momentum" that I alluded to earlier. So we now have that as a common frame of reference. Next, we can hopefully acknowledge that you make the 'decisions' that you 'want' to make, yes? They feel good in the context of the environment in which they are made. You have done as you wanted to do... but were always under something of an illusion that you were making the choices, and not your environment. This is a complex concept, so I am happy that you have understood this.

This is getting into a free will debate, and I've come to the conclusion that it can never be known whether or not humans have such free will.


The trick, however, is that now we must define where 'you' end, and your environment begins. We cannot say that you are subject to your surrounding world until we know which part of you is external, and which is internal. Your parents exposed you to astronomy, and now that discipline has become incorporated into the composite that forms what "you" are. Your parents, although certainly not a physical part of your body, are also certainly a critical part of your personal identity. They share a larger, common identity component with you: your family. The part of "you" that shares this familial identity with your parents informed your decisions on astronomy. Not your pinpoint physical body, but your larger incorporate identity was (in this case) simply talking to itself.

This sounds sort of like Bronfrenbrenner's theory on sociological interconnections between a person and their family/community/species. Now then, if we are to not restrict one's "self" to one's physical body, but rather when one's "identity" ends, why should this not end at the physical body, as only you have your own personality and belief systems?
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
James.Price
Posts: 109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2013 11:03:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 10:19:38 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 10:14:05 PM, James.Price wrote:
Well, technically speaking, unless you were removed from society at birth and managed to survive, all of your actions are in some way affected by other people. Even those actions that have "monumental importance" are in some ways the effect of various peoples interactions with you. I probably wouldn't have gone into astronomy if I hadn't been exposed to it by my parents.

Therefore, for me to describe something that was even done solely by my own will, without the intervention of others, in such a way that nature didn't interact either way very well be impossible, let alone find one that is or is not of my own true will.

Excellent! You are describing the "environmental momentum" that I alluded to earlier. So we now have that as a common frame of reference. Next, we can hopefully acknowledge that you make the 'decisions' that you 'want' to make, yes? They feel good in the context of the environment in which they are made. You have done as you wanted to do... but were always under something of an illusion that you were making the choices, and not your environment. This is a complex concept, so I am happy that you have understood this.

This is getting into a free will debate, and I've come to the conclusion that it can never be known whether or not humans have such free will.

I am not willing to say that we will "never" understand this, but I cannot know if it does exist or not, and I may never. I doubt that we have much freedom to resist the gravity wells of our environment. So many of our actions are dictated in advance. Most of what we do is inspired by the reverberations of past decisions. I don't want my concept of "will" to be confused with the similar sounding concept of "free will." My concept is more a realization that our actions are those which are most pleasing to us at the time they were made, controlling for environmental factors.


The trick, however, is that now we must define where 'you' end, and your environment begins. We cannot say that you are subject to your surrounding world until we know which part of you is external, and which is internal. Your parents exposed you to astronomy, and now that discipline has become incorporated into the composite that forms what "you" are. Your parents, although certainly not a physical part of your body, are also certainly a critical part of your personal identity. They share a larger, common identity component with you: your family. The part of "you" that shares this familial identity with your parents informed your decisions on astronomy. Not your pinpoint physical body, but your larger incorporate identity was (in this case) simply talking to itself.

This sounds sort of like Bronfrenbrenner's theory on sociological interconnections between a person and their family/community/species. Now then, if we are to not restrict one's "self" to one's physical body, but rather when one's "identity" ends, why should this not end at the physical body, as only you have your own personality and belief systems?

Bronfrenbrenner's ideas are overly complex. "We" (meaning our identities, not our physical forms) are simply composites of the various social systems that we observe, mimic and interact with. This concept of identity suggests that 'who' we are is essentially pan-personified composites that we necessarily share with others. (This is the "Love under Will" portion of Thelema.) We love and are attracted to these social systems because they comprise necessary components of our own personalities and identities.

This statement might enrage some people. They will object that some pair of enemies will not become one another if they observe and interact with one another long enough. Jews do not become Nazis (Godwin). This is not true - the two groups that hate one another will become mirror images of each other given enough interaction and observation.
21st_Century_Occultist
Posts: 65
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2013 1:31:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 8:50:11 PM, James.Price wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:39:48 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:35:42 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:29:06 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:10:41 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

The question was more in theory than practice. Obviously, and sadly, it would never work.

Nonsense. This is the only rule in all of human history that is always obeyed, and can never be resisted. I defy anyone to cite a single example of it's violation by any person, living or dead.

Hitler, Stalin, the Zodiac killer, the every government ever, the list is almost infinite. If the Law was "do what you want" you'd have a point. However, it is about both finding and following your true path AND allowing others to do their Will, not interfering for selfish reasons like ideals (government, nazis, etc), desire (killers, murderers), belief in one true system (religions), 99% of people likely violate the Law at some point.
The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2013 1:48:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/10/2013 11:03:30 PM, James.Price wrote:
At 12/10/2013 10:19:38 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 10:14:05 PM, James.Price wrote:
Well, technically speaking, unless you were removed from society at birth and managed to survive, all of your actions are in some way affected by other people. Even those actions that have "monumental importance" are in some ways the effect of various peoples interactions with you. I probably wouldn't have gone into astronomy if I hadn't been exposed to it by my parents.

Therefore, for me to describe something that was even done solely by my own will, without the intervention of others, in such a way that nature didn't interact either way very well be impossible, let alone find one that is or is not of my own true will.

Excellent! You are describing the "environmental momentum" that I alluded to earlier. So we now have that as a common frame of reference. Next, we can hopefully acknowledge that you make the 'decisions' that you 'want' to make, yes? They feel good in the context of the environment in which they are made. You have done as you wanted to do... but were always under something of an illusion that you were making the choices, and not your environment. This is a complex concept, so I am happy that you have understood this.

This is getting into a free will debate, and I've come to the conclusion that it can never be known whether or not humans have such free will.

I am not willing to say that we will "never" understand this, but I cannot know if it does exist or not, and I may never. I doubt that we have much freedom to resist the gravity wells of our environment. So many of our actions are dictated in advance. Most of what we do is inspired by the reverberations of past decisions. I don't want my concept of "will" to be confused with the similar sounding concept of "free will." My concept is more a realization that our actions are those which are most pleasing to us at the time they were made, controlling for environmental factors.

Not every action we make is the most pleasing to us. Sometimes we choose to do what is not pleasing. To quote JFK: "We choose to ... do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard...". It would be much more pleasing for me to just stay home and play video games, but if I am to get a degree, I need to go to class whether I like it or not.


The trick, however, is that now we must define where 'you' end, and your environment begins. We cannot say that you are subject to your surrounding world until we know which part of you is external, and which is internal. Your parents exposed you to astronomy, and now that discipline has become incorporated into the composite that forms what "you" are. Your parents, although certainly not a physical part of your body, are also certainly a critical part of your personal identity. They share a larger, common identity component with you: your family. The part of "you" that shares this familial identity with your parents informed your decisions on astronomy. Not your pinpoint physical body, but your larger incorporate identity was (in this case) simply talking to itself.

This sounds sort of like Bronfrenbrenner's theory on sociological interconnections between a person and their family/community/species. Now then, if we are to not restrict one's "self" to one's physical body, but rather when one's "identity" ends, why should this not end at the physical body, as only you have your own personality and belief systems?

Bronfrenbrenner's ideas are overly complex. "We" (meaning our identities, not our physical forms) are simply composites of the various social systems that we observe, mimic and interact with. This concept of identity suggests that 'who' we are is essentially pan-personified composites that we necessarily share with others. (This is the "Love under Will" portion of Thelema.) We love and are attracted to these social systems because they comprise necessary components of our own personalities and identities.

Why would we love something that "comprise necessary components of our own personalities and identities."?

This statement might enrage some people. They will object that some pair of enemies will not become one another if they observe and interact with one another long enough. Jews do not become Nazis (Godwin). This is not true - the two groups that hate one another will become mirror images of each other given enough interaction and observation.

Are you suggesting that given enough time, Nazis and Jews will become the same person?
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
James.Price
Posts: 109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2013 12:12:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/11/2013 1:31:43 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 8:50:11 PM, James.Price wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:39:48 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:35:42 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:29:06 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:10:41 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

The question was more in theory than practice. Obviously, and sadly, it would never work.

Nonsense. This is the only rule in all of human history that is always obeyed, and can never be resisted. I defy anyone to cite a single example of it's violation by any person, living or dead.

Hitler, Stalin, the Zodiac killer, the every government ever, the list is almost infinite. If the Law was "do what you want" you'd have a point. However, it is about both finding and following your true path AND allowing others to do their Will, not interfering for selfish reasons like ideals (government, nazis, etc), desire (killers, murderers), belief in one true system (religions), 99% of people likely violate the Law at some point.

You are confusing Thelema for Wicca, which does ask that we consider the injustices that we might inflict on others as we do as we please. Thelema ignores that stipulation. In reality, no person has ever failed to perform whatever action was most pleasing to that person, given the circumstances and environment in which the decision was made. Hitler, Stalin, the Zodiac Killer, etc. all were doing as they wished, as were the societies that rose up against these monsters.

Only the deranged want to harm others to unacceptable levels. This does not mean that the deranged are behaving against their will. It only means that what they desire is randomized. Our reactions to their actions are also always consistent with our wishes, to whatever extent we are able to realize them.
James.Price
Posts: 109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2013 12:38:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago

Not every action we make is the most pleasing to us. Sometimes we choose to do what is not pleasing. To quote JFK: "We choose to ... do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard...". It would be much more pleasing for me to just stay home and play video games, but if I am to get a degree, I need to go to class whether I like it or not.

You are ignoring your own words. You say that you would like to stay home with your games, but that you would rather pursue an education with your colleagues. Philosophies such as Thelema force us to cut through such self-imposed buIIshit. It forces honesty: would you indeed rather atrophy at home with games? No you would not. You should not feel victimized by your classes - you chose them. You chose this action over your comfortable home and the allure of your games.

When you pretend otherwise, when you imagine that you "must" suffer through classes, you create needless angst and pain for yourself. On the other hand, if you better understood (while you are in class) that you are exactly where you want to be, doing exactly what you want to do... when you understand that you would honestly prefer to be in class more than anywhere else in the world (given your circumstances)... then I maintain that you will make your collegiate life far more rewarding for yourself.

Are you suggesting that given enough time, Nazis and Jews will become the same person?

Yes.

Not the same DNA, or the same meat and bones as Nazis. However, the Jews that observed and interacted with Nazis too often, indeed adopted a mirror image of their policies. Compare the modern Jewish state of Israel and it's treatment of Palestinians to the German treatment of Jews before the Warsaw uprising. The names have changed, but the actions are exactly the same. (Remember that the German death camps and Einsatzgruppen did not exist in the early years.)

I assure you that the crazed, irrational hatred of the Israeli toward the Palestinian is every bit as fierce as the crazed, irrational hatred that most Germans held toward the Jews.

When allied troops liberated the death camps, they witnessed phenomenon that also proves my point starkly.

Upon gaining the upper hand over their captors, the death camp inmates instantly and remorselessly ripped their former tormentors to pieces with their bare hands. The camp guards were killed by the inmates in a manner that was exactly a match with the sadism and cruelty that these same men had inflicted on them.

We may think that this was an act that somehow "makes sense" even if we do not understand the mechanics behind the action. This machinery is a complex sociological science, and is imperfectly understood. Simply: the human animal will mimic behavior that it observes and interacts with, and develop sympathetic social systems to parallel that observed behavior.
21st_Century_Occultist
Posts: 65
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2013 12:54:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/12/2013 12:12:21 AM, James.Price wrote:
At 12/11/2013 1:31:43 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 8:50:11 PM, James.Price wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:39:48 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:35:42 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:29:06 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
At 12/10/2013 7:10:41 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/10/2013 6:56:24 PM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Would the Law of Thelema be a good foundation for behavior and life in general?

For those unfamiliar, the Law of Thelema states:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will."

The question was more in theory than practice. Obviously, and sadly, it would never work.

Nonsense. This is the only rule in all of human history that is always obeyed, and can never be resisted. I defy anyone to cite a single example of it's violation by any person, living or dead.

Hitler, Stalin, the Zodiac killer, the every government ever, the list is almost infinite. If the Law was "do what you want" you'd have a point. However, it is about both finding and following your true path AND allowing others to do their Will, not interfering for selfish reasons like ideals (government, nazis, etc), desire (killers, murderers), belief in one true system (religions), 99% of people likely violate the Law at some point.

You are confusing Thelema for Wicca, which does ask that we consider the injustices that we might inflict on others as we do as we please. Thelema ignores that stipulation. In reality, no person has ever failed to perform whatever action was most pleasing to that person, given the circumstances and environment in which the decision was made. Hitler, Stalin, the Zodiac Killer, etc. all were doing as they wished, as were the societies that rose up against these monsters.

Only the deranged want to harm others to unacceptable levels. This does not mean that the deranged are behaving against their will. It only means that what they desire is randomized. Our reactions to their actions are also always consistent with our wishes, to whatever extent we are able to realize them.

Um, no, the Law of Thelema includes the fact that we should allow others to do their Will. If you actually read the Book of the Law or other Thelemic writings on the Law you would no this. Thou has no right but to do thy will, this applies to everyone. So, when you interfere with the will of another through murder, rape, theft, genocide, kidnapping, etc you are violating the Law of Thelema.

Mainstream Wicca adds "harm ye none" because they need to be accepted by society, I hate mainstream Wicca. However, this idea is inherent in the Law of Thelema. Some simple study and logic proves this. Try it!
The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion
21st_Century_Occultist
Posts: 65
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2013 12:56:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Also note that "every man and woman is a star", that when everyone follows the Law of Thelema it is like a universe where all the orbits of the planets are perfect and so there is order as opposed to the chaos of star crashing into each other. When the Law of Thelema is violated there is chaos / conflict (such as genocide, murder, etc). Not that complicated.
The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion
James.Price
Posts: 109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2013 1:19:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Um, no, the Law of Thelema includes the fact that we should allow others to do their Will. If you actually read the Book of the Law or other Thelemic writings on the Law you would no this. Thou has no right but to do thy will, this applies to everyone. So, when you interfere with the will of another through murder, rape, theft, genocide, kidnapping, etc you are violating the Law of Thelema.


Mainstream Wicca adds "harm ye none" because they need to be accepted by society, I hate mainstream Wicca. However, this idea is inherent in the Law of Thelema. Some simple study and logic proves this. Try it!

"Simple Study."

I have looked into the matter. You seem to have looked at a website. So you may recognize this quote, taken from the "Book of the Law."

"The study of this Book is forbidden. It is wise to destroy this copy after the first reading.
Whosoever disregards this does so at his own risk and peril. These are most dire."

Here is another quote, again from the "Book of the Law"

-"There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt."

The Thelemic tradition does predate the "Book of the Law," but as a matter of philosophical study and argument, this was when the ideas were most fully realized. At its end, I regard Thelema as a cruder version of John Stuart Mills "Utilitarianism" which is a beautiful justification of hedonism. Which is what I believe was attempted in the "Book of the Law" which gives the fullest voice to the Thelemic ideas.

You mention repeatedly that any act counter to the will of any other is forbidden. This disagrees with the actual Law of Thelema, but is very much in line with some New Age reconstitutions.
James.Price
Posts: 109
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2013 1:33:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/12/2013 12:56:38 AM, 21st_Century_Occultist wrote:
Also note that "every man and woman is a star", that when everyone follows the Law of Thelema it is like a universe where all the orbits of the planets are perfect and so there is order as opposed to the chaos of star crashing into each other. When the Law of Thelema is violated there is chaos / conflict (such as genocide, murder, etc). Not that complicated.

Conveniently, I can quote the entirety of the ethical system of Thelema in a single section.

The following explains the ethical system of Thelemic philosophy. It is from "Liber OZ.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." "AL. I. 40

"thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay." "AL. I. 42"3

"Every man and every woman is a star." "AL. I. 3

There is no god but man.

1. Man has the right to live by his own law"
to live in the way that he wills to do:
to work as he will:
to play as he will:
to rest as he will:
to die when and how he will.

2. Man has the right to eat what he will:
to drink what he will:
to dwell where he will:
to move as he will on the face of the earth.

3. Man has the right to think what he will:
to speak what he will:
to write what he will:
to draw, paint, carve, etch, mould, build as he will:
to dress as he will.

4. Man has the right to love as he will:"
"take your fill and will of love as ye will,
when, where, and with whom ye will." "AL. I. 51

5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights.
"the slaves shall serve." "AL. II. 58
"Love is the law, love under will." "AL. I. 57

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly, this violates entirely any such notion that we are to allow others to contest the full exercise of our wishes. Although I do believe that the author of the Thelemic Law was a hedonist, and that he would not be insulted by my interpretation of this work as a justification of hedonism, I do not believe that he intended that here.

This rule is, instead, a plea to follow our true path, or our true higher calling, without apology or remorse. This includes madmen as well, since harmful actions will be controlled by others.
21st_Century_Occultist
Posts: 65
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2013 2:10:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
A. Your Duty to Self: describes the self as the center of the universe, with a call to learn about one's inner nature. Admonishes the reader to develop every faculty in a balanced way, establish one's autonomy, and to devote oneself to the service of one's own True Will.

B. Your Duty to Others: An admonishment to eliminate the illusion of separateness between oneself and all others, to fight when necessary, to avoid interfering with the Wills of others, to enlighten others when needed, and to worship the divine nature of all other beings.

C. Your Duty to Mankind: States that the Law of Thelema should be the sole basis of conduct. That the laws of the land should have the aim of securing the greatest liberty for all individuals. Crime is described as being a violation of one's True Will.

D. Your Duty to All Other Beings and Things: States that the Law of Thelema should be applied to all problems and used to decide every ethical question. It is a violation of the Law of Thelema to use any animal or object for a purpose for which it is unfit, or to ruin things so that they are useless for their purpose. Natural resources can be used by man, but this should not be done wantonly, or the breach of the law will be avenged.
The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2013 10:23:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/12/2013 12:38:18 AM, James.Price wrote:

Not every action we make is the most pleasing to us. Sometimes we choose to do what is not pleasing. To quote JFK: "We choose to ... do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard...". It would be much more pleasing for me to just stay home and play video games, but if I am to get a degree, I need to go to class whether I like it or not.

You are ignoring your own words. You say that you would like to stay home with your games, but that you would rather pursue an education with your colleagues. Philosophies such as Thelema force us to cut through such self-imposed buIIshit. It forces honesty: would you indeed rather atrophy at home with games? No you would not. You should not feel victimized by your classes - you chose them. You chose this action over your comfortable home and the allure of your games.

Yet I don't feel more pleasure by the classes. Isn't the Law of Thelma quasi-hedonistic in that sense?

When you pretend otherwise, when you imagine that you "must" suffer through classes, you create needless angst and pain for yourself. On the other hand, if you better understood (while you are in class) that you are exactly where you want to be, doing exactly what you want to do... when you understand that you would honestly prefer to be in class more than anywhere else in the world (given your circumstances)... then I maintain that you will make your collegiate life far more rewarding for yourself.

That is taking a lot of factors into consideration, like the relevance of the course, whether or not I chose to take it, and if I like the instructor.

Are you suggesting that given enough time, Nazis and Jews will become the same person?

Yes.

Not the same DNA, or the same meat and bones as Nazis. However, the Jews that observed and interacted with Nazis too often, indeed adopted a mirror image of their policies. Compare the modern Jewish state of Israel and it's treatment of Palestinians to the German treatment of Jews before the Warsaw uprising. The names have changed, but the actions are exactly the same. (Remember that the German death camps and Einsatzgruppen did not exist in the early years.)

Those are for entirely different reasons, and the actions that disply the hatred are very different, and therefore can't be looked upon as proof that two hated sides will eventually do the same thing, unless the term 'same' is going to be used very broadly.

I assure you that the crazed, irrational hatred of the Israeli toward the Palestinian is every bit as fierce as the crazed, irrational hatred that most Germans held toward the Jews.

In that sense, I can agree.

When allied troops liberated the death camps, they witnessed phenomenon that also proves my point starkly.

Upon gaining the upper hand over their captors, the death camp inmates instantly and remorselessly ripped their former tormentors to pieces with their bare hands. The camp guards were killed by the inmates in a manner that was exactly a match with the sadism and cruelty that these same men had inflicted on them.

We may think that this was an act that somehow "makes sense" even if we do not understand the mechanics behind the action. This machinery is a complex sociological science, and is imperfectly understood. Simply: the human animal will mimic behavior that it observes and interacts with, and develop sympathetic social systems to parallel that observed behavior.

Agreed, but you are getting at reciprocating behavior at different points in time. The Jews of the Holocaust aren't the same Jews that hate the Palestinians, so they behavioral aspect of the human mind doesn't apply here.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
21st_Century_Occultist
Posts: 65
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2013 4:23:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 8:40:16 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
Dumbest rule ever. It has next to 0 practical value.

Not that this advanced argument isn't highly convincing, but care to elaborate?
The Method of Science, the Aim of Religion