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ChristianPunk
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12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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12/12/2013 8:40:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Why would someone have to be religious to be able to argue that religion can be (and often is) a good thing?
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/12/2013 8:43:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/12/2013 8:40:55 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Why would someone have to be religious to be able to argue that religion can be (and often is) a good thing?

Because I would like somebody who has the faith in their religion so they can defend with 100% trust and belief that they are making a stand for their faith. There are some atheists who want to eliminate the right to practice religion.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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12/12/2013 8:53:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/12/2013 8:43:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:40:55 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Why would someone have to be religious to be able to argue that religion can be (and often is) a good thing?

Because I would like somebody who has the faith in their religion so they can defend with 100% trust and belief that they are making a stand for their faith. There are some atheists who want to eliminate the right to practice religion.

I understood your reasons for wishing to argue your point from your first post. What I'm curious about is why you think atheists would be more willing to listen to a group made purely of members of various religions who obviously have an agenda to protect than to someone who isn't religious by nature but still sees the good in it? Wouldn't that come across as less biased? No offense, but I've never seen a group of atheists and a religious group who were able to achieve reasonable communication. I do wish you luck, however.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/12/2013 9:11:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/12/2013 8:53:53 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:43:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:40:55 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Why would someone have to be religious to be able to argue that religion can be (and often is) a good thing?

Because I would like somebody who has the faith in their religion so they can defend with 100% trust and belief that they are making a stand for their faith. There are some atheists who want to eliminate the right to practice religion.

I understood your reasons for wishing to argue your point from your first post. What I'm curious about is why you think atheists would be more willing to listen to a group made purely of members of various religions who obviously have an agenda to protect than to someone who isn't religious by nature but still sees the good in it? Wouldn't that come across as less biased? No offense, but I've never seen a group of atheists and a religious group who were able to achieve reasonable communication. I do wish you luck, however.

Well those people exist. Mostly Agnostics. Or some Agnostics I met claim they are their own religion and can make a fun view with religion. Some people who take a marx and lennin like view, think religion should be abolished. So while there are atheists and agnostics who do exist, especially when this girl is doing the job you did. In fact, since you mention it. Anybody who is an atheist and wants to defend it, may join the Four Disciples. :3
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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12/13/2013 4:07:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/12/2013 9:11:09 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:53:53 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:43:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:40:55 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Why would someone have to be religious to be able to argue that religion can be (and often is) a good thing?

Because I would like somebody who has the faith in their religion so they can defend with 100% trust and belief that they are making a stand for their faith. There are some atheists who want to eliminate the right to practice religion.

I understood your reasons for wishing to argue your point from your first post. What I'm curious about is why you think atheists would be more willing to listen to a group made purely of members of various religions who obviously have an agenda to protect than to someone who isn't religious by nature but still sees the good in it? Wouldn't that come across as less biased? No offense, but I've never seen a group of atheists and a religious group who were able to achieve reasonable communication. I do wish you luck, however.

Well those people exist. Mostly Agnostics. Or some Agnostics I met claim they are their own religion and can make a fun view with religion. Some people who take a marx and lennin like view, think religion should be abolished. So while there are atheists and agnostics who do exist, especially when this girl is doing the job you did. In fact, since you mention it. Anybody who is an atheist and wants to defend it, may join the Four Disciples. :3



Wow. I'm really glad you attached that video. I enjoyed it very much, and plan to obtain her book. She expressed almost exactly what I feel, except that I am probably more spiritually open. All I want for myself is to know the truth, whatever that may be. I don't believe science can provide all the answers because life is experiential, which is something science doesn't seem to take into account. Everything we know about everything is relative to us, and so we sit at the center of all knowledge from our perspective. I believe there is evidence of a larger perspective, which would point toward the likelihood of a larger mind. But I try very hard not to let my beliefs solidify in a state of uncertainty.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/13/2013 9:21:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/13/2013 4:07:19 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 9:11:09 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:53:53 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:43:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:40:55 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Why would someone have to be religious to be able to argue that religion can be (and often is) a good thing?

Because I would like somebody who has the faith in their religion so they can defend with 100% trust and belief that they are making a stand for their faith. There are some atheists who want to eliminate the right to practice religion.

I understood your reasons for wishing to argue your point from your first post. What I'm curious about is why you think atheists would be more willing to listen to a group made purely of members of various religions who obviously have an agenda to protect than to someone who isn't religious by nature but still sees the good in it? Wouldn't that come across as less biased? No offense, but I've never seen a group of atheists and a religious group who were able to achieve reasonable communication. I do wish you luck, however.

Well those people exist. Mostly Agnostics. Or some Agnostics I met claim they are their own religion and can make a fun view with religion. Some people who take a marx and lennin like view, think religion should be abolished. So while there are atheists and agnostics who do exist, especially when this girl is doing the job you did. In fact, since you mention it. Anybody who is an atheist and wants to defend it, may join the Four Disciples. :3



Wow. I'm really glad you attached that video. I enjoyed it very much, and plan to obtain her book. She expressed almost exactly what I feel, except that I am probably more spiritually open. All I want for myself is to know the truth, whatever that may be. I don't believe science can provide all the answers because life is experiential, which is something science doesn't seem to take into account. Everything we know about everything is relative to us, and so we sit at the center of all knowledge from our perspective. I believe there is evidence of a larger perspective, which would point toward the likelihood of a larger mind. But I try very hard not to let my beliefs solidify in a state of uncertainty.

If you want, I guess you can join the Four Disciples of Religion with me. But after looking at your profile, I notice you haven't done debates, but more forum posts. Unless you just wanna take up the forums by spreading speeches on your beliefs to help our cause. Also, thank you. I'm glad you liked the video. :)
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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12/13/2013 11:46:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/13/2013 9:21:25 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/13/2013 4:07:19 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 9:11:09 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:53:53 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:43:08 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:40:55 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Why would someone have to be religious to be able to argue that religion can be (and often is) a good thing?

Because I would like somebody who has the faith in their religion so they can defend with 100% trust and belief that they are making a stand for their faith. There are some atheists who want to eliminate the right to practice religion.

I understood your reasons for wishing to argue your point from your first post. What I'm curious about is why you think atheists would be more willing to listen to a group made purely of members of various religions who obviously have an agenda to protect than to someone who isn't religious by nature but still sees the good in it? Wouldn't that come across as less biased? No offense, but I've never seen a group of atheists and a religious group who were able to achieve reasonable communication. I do wish you luck, however.

Well those people exist. Mostly Agnostics. Or some Agnostics I met claim they are their own religion and can make a fun view with religion. Some people who take a marx and lennin like view, think religion should be abolished. So while there are atheists and agnostics who do exist, especially when this girl is doing the job you did. In fact, since you mention it. Anybody who is an atheist and wants to defend it, may join the Four Disciples. :3



Wow. I'm really glad you attached that video. I enjoyed it very much, and plan to obtain her book. She expressed almost exactly what I feel, except that I am probably more spiritually open. All I want for myself is to know the truth, whatever that may be. I don't believe science can provide all the answers because life is experiential, which is something science doesn't seem to take into account. Everything we know about everything is relative to us, and so we sit at the center of all knowledge from our perspective. I believe there is evidence of a larger perspective, which would point toward the likelihood of a larger mind. But I try very hard not to let my beliefs solidify in a state of uncertainty.

If you want, I guess you can join the Four Disciples of Religion with me. But after looking at your profile, I notice you haven't done debates, but more forum posts. Unless you just wanna take up the forums by spreading speeches on your beliefs to help our cause. Also, thank you. I'm glad you liked the video. :)

I'm not ready to do debates yet. I'm in the process of recovering from a severe illness, so it's difficult to make commitments like that which require that I stay focused too long. Eventually I'll get there, but for now I just do opinions and forums.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/15/2013 3:16:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Religion was used by our Creator to kill more people in this world than any other entity besides the natural events that God planned for this age such as disease, earthquakes, weather storms, accidents, etc.

The Vatican was used to kill millions of natives in foreign countries and steal their land and minerals. Every bit of these actions by Christians were disobedient to the commandments of our Creator.
Seek
Posts: 63
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12/15/2013 4:16:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If you need religion in order to make you not thieve, rape or murder, by all means, continue to practice your religion, lest you act on your own sociopathic whims.

I would prefer that you do so without an aim to convert others. Allow the rest of us the option to teach the coming generations how to not be evil for goodness' own sake.

As long as the religious are demanding their own self-imposed restrictions be placed on those who do not agree with their beliefs, I, as one apostate, will not agree that religion is good for the world on the whole. Need I list the diseases that have been nearly eradicated before religious leaders started running their mouths? Not to mention AIDS in Africa.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/15/2013 5:22:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 3:16:04 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Religion was used by our Creator to kill more people in this world than any other entity besides the natural events that God planned for this age such as disease, earthquakes, weather storms, accidents, etc.

The Vatican was used to kill millions of natives in foreign countries and steal their land and minerals. Every bit of these actions by Christians were disobedient to the commandments of our Creator.

Religion was mainly used by Man. Christianity to me, is not religion.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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12/15/2013 7:24:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 5:22:19 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/15/2013 3:16:04 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Religion was used by our Creator to kill more people in this world than any other entity besides the natural events that God planned for this age such as disease, earthquakes, weather storms, accidents, etc.

The Vatican was used to kill millions of natives in foreign countries and steal their land and minerals. Every bit of these actions by Christians were disobedient to the commandments of our Creator.

Religion was mainly used by Man. Christianity to me, is not religion.

There are many with poor understanding of history who actually believe that religion is the main cause of war, or that it is responsible for more deaths than any other cause, despite the fact that less people died in all of the Crusades and the Inquisition combined than what were killed by Pol Pot alone (an avowed atheist) in this century. Most seem to believe it because they read it in a book by someone like Richard Dawkins, who himself seems to know little of history. I think we live in a time when agenda-based rumor has gained a whole new level of power, making actual facts seem far less important.
ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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12/15/2013 8:34:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 7:24:04 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/15/2013 5:22:19 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/15/2013 3:16:04 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Religion was used by our Creator to kill more people in this world than any other entity besides the natural events that God planned for this age such as disease, earthquakes, weather storms, accidents, etc.

The Vatican was used to kill millions of natives in foreign countries and steal their land and minerals. Every bit of these actions by Christians were disobedient to the commandments of our Creator.

Religion was mainly used by Man. Christianity to me, is not religion.

There are many with poor understanding of history who actually believe that religion is the main cause of war, or that it is responsible for more deaths than any other cause, despite the fact that less people died in all of the Crusades and the Inquisition combined than what were killed by Pol Pot alone (an avowed atheist) in this century. Most seem to believe it because they read it in a book by someone like Richard Dawkins, who himself seems to know little of history. I think we live in a time when agenda-based rumor has gained a whole new level of power, making actual facts seem far less important.

Also, what was the motive behind Newton and Columbine shootings? It wasn't religion and those are the more tragic incidents. It's rather a mental illness that caused them to behave the way they did.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/15/2013 9:51:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 5:22:19 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/15/2013 3:16:04 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.

Religion was used by our Creator to kill more people in this world than any other entity besides the natural events that God planned for this age such as disease, earthquakes, weather storms, accidents, etc.

The Vatican was used to kill millions of natives in foreign countries and steal their land and minerals. Every bit of these actions by Christians were disobedient to the commandments of our Creator.

Religion was mainly used by Man. Christianity to me, is not religion.
God used religion to teach men how to build things with their hands until we had the modern technology to help us understand how God created us as energy.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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12/15/2013 10:42:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished.

Not sure why I'd feel compelled to prove anything to atheists.

There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Josh_b
Posts: 1,119
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12/16/2013 3:59:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 4:16:05 PM, Seek wrote:
If you need religion in order to make you not thieve, rape or murder, by all means, continue to practice your religion, lest you act on your own sociopathic whims.

I would prefer that you do so without an aim to convert others. Allow the rest of us the option to teach the coming generations how to not be evil for goodness' own sake.

As long as the religious are demanding their own self-imposed restrictions be placed on those who do not agree with their beliefs, I, as one apostate, will not agree that religion is good for the world on the whole. Need I list the diseases that have been nearly eradicated before religious leaders started running their mouths? Not to mention AIDS in Africa.

I believe that goodness is the basis for religion. If you consider the capabilities of man, the teachings of social morality must be taught and spread to keep men from their sociopathic whims. The only way to justify religion over non religion is to prove that all men are prone to immorality. Man being prone to immorality (evil) is a constant battle of humanity that we must take very seriously. There are many religions that profess goodness as their basis, but one religion above all claims that evil will be completely eradicated and goodness will prevail. This religion is Christianity. The most powerful thing about Christianity is the belief in one God above all other who can free his followers from guilt and influence their decisions for goodness even when immorality seems justified. Accepting Jesus Christ into your heart can not only give you an inner sense of goodness, it can change the very nature of a man. Christians are justified in their belief of Jesus as their savior through the evident character change that occurs after accepting Jesus into their heart. The miracle of sin forgiveness is the greatest evidence that a true God does exist. Just the act of Jesus giving up his life for mankind shows the very nature of what man can be. Without God, man is like other Earth species who live for survival and are incapable of self sacrifice for a greater good.
Scrutiny Welcome

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Seek
Posts: 63
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12/16/2013 10:12:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
: At 12/16/2013 3:59:03 AM, Josh_b wrote:
There are many religions that profess goodness as their basis, but one religion above all claims that evil will be completely eradicated and goodness will prevail. This religion is Christianity. The most powerful thing about Christianity is the belief in one God above all other who can free his followers from guilt and influence their decisions for goodness even when immorality seems justified. Accepting Jesus Christ into your heart can not only give you an inner sense of goodness, it can change the very nature of a man. Christians are justified in their belief of Jesus as their savior through the evident character change that occurs after accepting Jesus into their heart. The miracle of sin forgiveness is the greatest evidence that a true God does exist. Just the act of Jesus giving up his life for mankind shows the very nature of what man can be. Without God, man is like other Earth species who live for survival and are incapable of self sacrifice for a greater good.

I disagree with your premise.

First of all: according to the Christian mythos, good does not prevail, simply those chosen by god get to live in a designated "sinner-free zone" while everyone else is boiled in magma for eternity. As a special concession, it's been determined that those in Heaven will have no memory of those who are then in Hell, so they get to feel justified in not thinking about how utterly evil their god would have to be, to claim to love their creation while he orchestrates mass torture of anyone who dares defy him.

The "miracle of sin forgiveness" is the single most immoral aspect of Christianity. One cannot accept the guilt of another, nor absolve them of guilt. To have a moral society we must all act in a moral fashion and accept the consequences of choosing not to do so. Writing a scapegoat clause into the religion simply allows for immorality, with the so-common "I'm sorry! The devil made me do it!" afterward.

This is why according to the Christian mythos, Jeffrey Dahmer and David Berkowitz get to go to heaven, while Nicolae Tesla and Marie Curie will spend an eternity being tortured.

Your god is a mob boss, giving people the opportunity to buy protection against what he will do to them if they don't buy protection.
Josh_b
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12/16/2013 1:15:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 10:12:33 AM, Seek wrote:
: At 12/16/2013 3:59:03 AM, Josh_b wrote:
There are many religions that profess goodness as their basis, but one religion above all claims that evil will be completely eradicated and goodness will prevail. This religion is Christianity. The most powerful thing about Christianity is the belief in one God above all other who can free his followers from guilt and influence their decisions for goodness even when immorality seems justified. Accepting Jesus Christ into your heart can not only give you an inner sense of goodness, it can change the very nature of a man. Christians are justified in their belief of Jesus as their savior through the evident character change that occurs after accepting Jesus into their heart. The miracle of sin forgiveness is the greatest evidence that a true God does exist. Just the act of Jesus giving up his life for mankind shows the very nature of what man can be. Without God, man is like other Earth species who live for survival and are incapable of self sacrifice for a greater good.

I disagree with your premise.

First of all: according to the Christian mythos, good does not prevail, simply those chosen by god get to live in a designated "sinner-free zone" while everyone else is boiled in magma for eternity. As a special concession, it's been determined that those in Heaven will have no memory of those who are then in Hell, so they get to feel justified in not thinking about how utterly evil their god would have to be, to claim to love their creation while he orchestrates mass torture of anyone who dares defy him.

The "miracle of sin forgiveness" is the single most immoral aspect of Christianity. One cannot accept the guilt of another, nor absolve them of guilt. To have a moral society we must all act in a moral fashion and accept the consequences of choosing not to do so. Writing a scapegoat clause into the religion simply allows for immorality, with the so-common "I'm sorry! The devil made me do it!" afterward.

This is why according to the Christian mythos, Jeffrey Dahmer and David Berkowitz get to go to heaven, while Nicolae Tesla and Marie Curie will spend an eternity being tortured.

Your god is a mob boss, giving people the opportunity to buy protection against what he will do to them if they don't buy protection.

I understand why you disagree with the premise; you have a considerable misgivings concerning Christianity.

Jesus is coming back and the Earth as we know it will be destroyed. Holy living and Godliness are terms for Social Morality used in a religious context. A new heaven and new earth are promises from God to those who follow him, only to those who follow him, and to all of those who follow him.
2 Peter 3:10-13 American Standard Version (ASV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy living and godliness,
12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The ones that are saved are not the ones that are chosen by God. The ones that are saved are the ones who choose God. That part seems simple, "all of those who follow him." You don't have to be of noble descent, or live in a mansion, or live on the streets to accept Jesus Christ, anyone can who believes in him and confesses his name.
John 3:16 American Standard Version (ASV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Matthew 10:32 American Standard Version (ASV)
32 Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven
Mark 16:15 American Standard Version (ASV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
1 John 1:9 American Standard Version (ASV)
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Another misconception that appears in your statement concerns the teachings of grace within Christianity. For continuity's sake I present Romans 6:1-13, although I encourage you to read the chapter in its entirety for full understanding of what grace means in Christianity.
Romans 6 American Standard Version (ASV)
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein?
3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;
7 for he that hath died is justified from sin.
8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him;
9 knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death no more hath dominion over him.
10 For the death that he died, he died unto sin once: but the life that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof:
13 neither present your members unto sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

The terms of righteousness vs. unrighteousness are continual references to moral and immoral behavior. But what is moral and immoral? How can you know that a person is saved? Paul identifies fruits, or behaviors, that represent goodness that will tell us how to live our lives according to Christ.

Galatians 5:22-23 American Standard Version (ASV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.

Philippians 4:8 American Standard Version (ASV)
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honorable, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Luke 16:19-31( http://www.biblegateway.com... ) teaches that we will remember our Earthly lives after we die. I find no biblical teaching or references that indicate otherwise.

Lastly I would like to agree with your statement "One cannot accept the guilt of another, nor absolve them of guilt." "One," cannot. Jesus, however, can. More importantly only God can. In order for one's guilt to be absolved, there would have to be some spiritual intervention because I agree that we have our own consequences for iniquitous behavior. But the nature of God is to save us despite our iniquities. http://www.biblegateway.com...

I would like to apologize for taking up so much space but you statements were very loaded and a gross misrepresentation of the teachings of Christianity.
Scrutiny Welcome

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Seek
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12/16/2013 1:19:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
: At 12/16/2013 1:15:14 PM, Josh_b wrote:
a whole lot of copypasta.

I'm thoroughly versed in the doctrine of Christianity, as I spent a great deal of time teaching it to others.

Feel free to justify it all you like, but if you believe in hell and still worship your god out of fear, instead of rejecting him for his evil, you are nothing but a lackey.
Josh_b
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12/16/2013 1:53:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 1:19:04 PM, Seek wrote:
: At 12/16/2013 1:15:14 PM, Josh_b wrote:
a whole lot of copypasta.

I'm thoroughly versed in the doctrine of Christianity, as I spent a great deal of time teaching it to others.

Feel free to justify it all you like, but if you believe in hell and still worship your god out of fear, instead of rejecting him for his evil, you are nothing but a lackey.

You just wanted me to post this verse.
1 John 4:18 American Standard Version (ASV)
18 There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear, because fear hath punishment; and he that feareth is not made perfect in love.

The entire chapter teaches that we should serve God in Love. And that we cannot serve him in love, unless he is in us. Therefore I would say that there are people who profess to be Christians but truly are not.
Titus 1:16 American Standard Version (ASV)
16 They profess that they know God; but by their works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Being that you are well versed in Christianity, What has caused you to reject Christ as your savior? and What has led you to portray it in such a way that you have without references?
Scrutiny Welcome

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DudeStop
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12/16/2013 5:59:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name."

Name to me one moral or ethical action or behaviour committed or carried out by a believer that could not have been committed or carried out by an atheist. Can't? Then perhaps try to name one immoral or unethical action or behaviour that has been committed or carried out in the name of God.~Hitchens

Religion is good?...
Seek
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12/16/2013 7:16:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
: At 12/16/2013 1:53:24 PM, Josh_b wrote:
Being that you are well versed in Christianity, What has caused you to reject Christ as your savior? and What has led you to portray it in such a way that you have without references?


I recognized that the Abrahamic god is an evil character, and determined that if I were to worship a god, it could not be one that would, for example, play at knucklebones with the lives of his loyalest followers (such as Job). Being raised a Fundamentalist, simply taking bits of the Bible as "for another age" or "allegorical" was not acceptable, as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, after all. Then, I realised that there has been no verifiable empirical evidence of the existence of God. And afterward, I studied the history of the Bible and recognized how flawed a document it was.

So if there was a god, it was certainly not that one.

But then I couldn't see why I should believe in any other god, since I had no more evidence for those gods than I did for the one I had just rejected.
ChristianPunk
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12/16/2013 7:43:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 5:59:54 PM, DudeStop wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name."



Name to me one moral or ethical action or behaviour committed or carried out by a believer that could not have been committed or carried out by an atheist. Can't? Then perhaps try to name one immoral or unethical action or behaviour that has been committed or carried out in the name of God.~Hitchens

Religion is good?...

What was the motive of The Columbine and Newtown shootings? I can gurantee ya religion wasn't involved.
Idealist
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12/16/2013 8:00:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 10:12:33 AM, Seek wrote:
: At 12/16/2013 3:59:03 AM, Josh_b wrote:
There are many religions that profess goodness as their basis, but one religion above all claims that evil will be completely eradicated and goodness will prevail. This religion is Christianity. The most powerful thing about Christianity is the belief in one God above all other who can free his followers from guilt and influence their decisions for goodness even when immorality seems justified. Accepting Jesus Christ into your heart can not only give you an inner sense of goodness, it can change the very nature of a man. Christians are justified in their belief of Jesus as their savior through the evident character change that occurs after accepting Jesus into their heart. The miracle of sin forgiveness is the greatest evidence that a true God does exist. Just the act of Jesus giving up his life for mankind shows the very nature of what man can be. Without God, man is like other Earth species who live for survival and are incapable of self sacrifice for a greater good.

I disagree with your premise.

First of all: according to the Christian mythos, good does not prevail, simply those chosen by god get to live in a designated "sinner-free zone" while everyone else is boiled in magma for eternity. As a special concession, it's been determined that those in Heaven will have no memory of those who are then in Hell, so they get to feel justified in not thinking about how utterly evil their god would have to be, to claim to love their creation while he orchestrates mass torture of anyone who dares defy him.

The "miracle of sin forgiveness" is the single most immoral aspect of Christianity. One cannot accept the guilt of another, nor absolve them of guilt. To have a moral society we must all act in a moral fashion and accept the consequences of choosing not to do so. Writing a scapegoat clause into the religion simply allows for immorality, with the so-common "I'm sorry! The devil made me do it!" afterward.

The way I understand this, sin forgiveness is based on the premise that the one doing the forgiving (God) is capable of judging a person's true heart without fail. A person who manages to truly repent (probably a rare thing) would be as clean of sin as one who hadn't sinned to begin with, just as dirt can be washed away, leaving a person as clean as if they had never been dirty at all. A better description might be a person who is infected with a contagious illness. If the person is truly cured then there is no reason not to treat them as if they were ever ill. To behave otherwise would be nothing more than an attempt at revenge.

This is why according to the Christian mythos, Jeffrey Dahmer and David Berkowitz get to go to heaven, while Nicolae Tesla and Marie Curie will spend an eternity being tortured.

None of us know where any of those people have gone. According to the rule you are describing it would be dependent upon their own success in completely changing their own nature, something which again is not easy to do. But even in human lore, the idea of a good person getting a second chance is very appealing.

Your god is a mob boss, giving people the opportunity to buy protection against what he will do to them if they don't buy protection.
popculturepooka
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12/16/2013 8:06:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 7:16:06 PM, Seek wrote:
: At 12/16/2013 1:53:24 PM, Josh_b wrote:
Being that you are well versed in Christianity, What has caused you to reject Christ as your savior? and What has led you to portray it in such a way that you have without references?


I recognized that the Abrahamic god is an evil character, and determined that if I were to worship a god, it could not be one that would, for example, play at knucklebones with the lives of his loyalest followers (such as Job). Being raised a Fundamentalist, simply taking bits of the Bible as "for another age" or "allegorical" was not acceptable, as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, after all. Then, I realised that there has been no verifiable empirical evidence of the existence of God. And afterward, I studied the history of the Bible and recognized how flawed a document it was.


So if there was a god, it was certainly not that one.

But then I couldn't see why I should believe in any other god, since I had no more evidence for those gods than I did for the one I had just rejected.

That explains why you have the view of christianity you do. Fundamentalism. Ughh.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
DudeStop
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12/16/2013 8:08:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 7:43:01 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/16/2013 5:59:54 PM, DudeStop wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name."



Name to me one moral or ethical action or behaviour committed or carried out by a believer that could not have been committed or carried out by an atheist. Can't? Then perhaps try to name one immoral or unethical action or behaviour that has been committed or carried out in the name of God.~Hitchens

Religion is good?...

What was the motive of The Columbine and Newtown shootings? I can gurantee ya religion wasn't involved.

Answer the question
ChristianPunk
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12/16/2013 8:10:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 8:08:40 PM, DudeStop wrote:
At 12/16/2013 7:43:01 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 12/16/2013 5:59:54 PM, DudeStop wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name."



Name to me one moral or ethical action or behaviour committed or carried out by a believer that could not have been committed or carried out by an atheist. Can't? Then perhaps try to name one immoral or unethical action or behaviour that has been committed or carried out in the name of God.~Hitchens

Religion is good?...

What was the motive of The Columbine and Newtown shootings? I can gurantee ya religion wasn't involved.

Answer the question

Yes. Religion is good. Sorry, I got too involved in the Hitchens quote. lol
Idealist
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12/16/2013 8:10:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 1:19:04 PM, Seek wrote:
: At 12/16/2013 1:15:14 PM, Josh_b wrote:
a whole lot of copypasta.

I'm thoroughly versed in the doctrine of Christianity, as I spent a great deal of time teaching it to others.

Feel free to justify it all you like, but if you believe in hell and still worship your god out of fear, instead of rejecting him for his evil, you are nothing but a lackey.

I understand this argument, as I've made it myself most of my life. It's probably the main reason I'm not a religious Christian. I do not believe in a Hell, at least not as it's been portrayed. Nor do I believe in Heaven where all Christians (or any religion) will just while-away forever in eternal bliss. If there is a purpose to life then there would have to be a purpose to an afterlife. I can't even begin to imagine what death would be like, or what comes after it.
Idealist
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12/16/2013 8:16:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 5:59:54 PM, DudeStop wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name."



Name to me one moral or ethical action or behaviour committed or carried out by a believer that could not have been committed or carried out by an atheist. Can't? Then perhaps try to name one immoral or unethical action or behaviour that has been committed or carried out in the name of God.~Hitchens

Religion is good?...

The one big thing which sticks in my own mind is that when I was disabled and couldn't work, it was the churches in the area where I live that came to help me. They donated food and necessities for several months, and when my disability stretched on into the Christmas season they all chipped in and gave me the money to buy presents for all my children. All of this despite the fact that I was no church-goer myself, and most of them were total strangers to me. Yet they offered more help than even my own family.
DudeStop
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12/16/2013 8:48:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 8:16:53 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/16/2013 5:59:54 PM, DudeStop wrote:
At 12/12/2013 8:36:16 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
The Four Disciples of Religion

A movement consisting of four people who are willing to show their views of religion in not just a non conservative view, but in a peaceful way to prove to atheists that religion must not be abolished. There can be good that comes from it. You don't have to just be Christian like me. You can be Muslim. You can be Jewish. You can be a Hindu. I am not going to allow certain cults like Mormonism or Calvinists. You can say I may have contradicted myself there in ya'lls eyes, but I can tell when something has gone too far in a religion. If your interested, message me and I will tell you what we will do and what we must do to achieve our goal for tolerance with a theist and non theist community mingling together. No more shall the world divide. And we will hopefully end the bigotry of those who give religion a bad name."



Name to me one moral or ethical action or behaviour committed or carried out by a believer that could not have been committed or carried out by an atheist. Can't? Then perhaps try to name one immoral or unethical action or behaviour that has been committed or carried out in the name of God.~Hitchens

Religion is good?...

The one big thing which sticks in my own mind is that when I was disabled and couldn't work, it was the churches in the area where I live that came to help me. They donated food and necessities for several months, and when my disability stretched on into the Christmas season they all chipped in and gave me the money to buy presents for all my children. All of this despite the fact that I was no church-goer myself, and most of them were total strangers to me. Yet they offered more help than even my own family.

A touching story.

The big thing that sticks out for me is that there have still been horrible crimes committed in the name of god. And I'm sorry to say, but 9/11 is worse than your situation. I realize it must have been and may still be horrible for you.