Total Posts:35|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Pain is just a lack of pleasure

Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 2:23:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
for some people pain is pleasure.

"sticks and stones may break my bones but chains and whips excite me." - rihanna (aka bad girl riri)
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 2:23:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 2:23:14 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
for some people pain is pleasure.

"sticks and stones may break my bones but chains and whips excite me." - rihanna (aka bad girl riri)

Lol Fair enough.
SemperVI
Posts: 294
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 2:25:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

I don't think you wrong. However; consider this, I live in constant physical pain. It is because of this I enjoy the pleasure of being around loved ones. Playing with my grand-daughter for example, seems to alleviate this pain. In that sense, it could be said pleasure is a sufficient antidote for the suffering of physical pain, which provides tranquility of mind.

Good post to ponder Thinker
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 2:36:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

You are right in that it makes no sense.

Pain comes from the release of chemicals like substance P, whereas pleasure comes from chemicals like dopamine. You can have one of those, both, or none at all at the same time in your system.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 2:38:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 2:36:37 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

You are right in that it makes no sense.

Pain comes from the release of chemicals like substance P, whereas pleasure comes from chemicals like dopamine. You can have one of those, both, or none at all at the same time in your system.

Very good point! Even if substance P was never released (that made me feel pain ever), dopamine still could be. Thus, I could still feel pleasure without pain. However, could it be the case that the dopamine would have more of an effect on someone who is in pain? Meaning, that you get the most out of it if you are in pain?
Sargon
Posts: 524
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 2:46:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It makes absolutely no scientific sense at all. Pain is its own sensation. It is not a lack of a sensation.
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 3:00:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 2:38:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/14/2013 2:36:37 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

You are right in that it makes no sense.

Pain comes from the release of chemicals like substance P, whereas pleasure comes from chemicals like dopamine. You can have one of those, both, or none at all at the same time in your system.

Very good point! Even if substance P was never released (that made me feel pain ever), dopamine still could be. Thus, I could still feel pleasure without pain. However, could it be the case that the dopamine would have more of an effect on someone who is in pain? Meaning, that you get the most out of it if you are in pain?

It certainly seems possible. That could be partly what is behind BDSM fetishes.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 3:08:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Interesting post, rationalthinker.

I think pain is most likely the reserve of pleasure. If pleasure is understood to be the relieving of stress, then pain is the intensifying of stress. It's possible than pain or pleasure are active, accelerative phenomena.

This is a topic that has aroused deep curiosity in me, as well as other thinkers. I too am trying to find an answer to the mystery of pleasure and pain.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 3:22:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 3:08:39 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
Interesting post, rationalthinker.

I think pain is most likely the reserve of pleasure. If pleasure is understood to be the relieving of stress, then pain is the intensifying of stress. It's possible than pain or pleasure are active, accelerative phenomena.

This is a topic that has aroused deep curiosity in me, as well as other thinkers. I too am trying to find an answer to the mystery of pleasure and pain.

I think the best answer is the scientific one. The substance that gets released so we feel pain, is completely distinct from dopamine (a substance that makes us feel pleasure). Thus, one isn't just the lack of the other, they are two distinct different things.
Sargon
Posts: 524
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 3:42:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Honestly, anyone who thinks pain is just a lack of pleasure needs a remedial lesson on the nervous system.
Bullish
Posts: 3,527
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/14/2013 5:49:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm thinking that people who say that are usually self-proclaimed wise men or "poets", the same ones who introduced to us smart or mystique sounding phrases like "just be yourself" or "to know is to not know", which are of course completely devoid of logic.
0x5f3759df
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2013 12:21:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

I can't wait to die to get out of my body that tells me I'm in pain. There is no pain beyond death and neither is death.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2013 8:06:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

I don't think you're wrong on this one, unless the person was just speaking of some specific experience, like depression, maybe. If a person never experienced any pleasure any of the time, I would think they would tend to become very depressed, which can be psychologically and emotionally painful. Maybe they were comparing that to how darkness is really only the absence of light, or cold the absence of heat? It's the only thing I can think of that might make sense.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2013 8:21:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 12:21:49 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

I can't wait to die to get out of my body that tells me I'm in pain. There is no pain beyond death and neither is death.

Your body is also what tells you are having pleasure, not just having pains. Thus, you lose pleasure at death as well.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2013 9:53:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 8:21:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/15/2013 12:21:49 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

I can't wait to die to get out of my body that tells me I'm in pain. There is no pain beyond death and neither is death.

Your body is also what tells you are having pleasure, not just having pains. Thus, you lose pleasure at death as well.

Only for a moment, then we'll experience pleasure for eternity without ever experiencing pain again.
Magic8000
Posts: 975
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/15/2013 10:16:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 3:42:42 PM, Sargon wrote:
Honestly, anyone who thinks pain is just a lack of pleasure needs a remedial lesson on the nervous system.

Science isn't exactly a fact. That's why they call it science fiction not science faction.

Checkmate
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
2-D
Posts: 226
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2013 8:39:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/15/2013 8:06:25 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

I don't think you're wrong on this one, unless the person was just speaking of some specific experience, like depression, maybe. If a person never experienced any pleasure any of the time, I would think they would tend to become very depressed, which can be psychologically and emotionally painful. Maybe they were comparing that to how darkness is really only the absence of light, or cold the absence of heat? It's the only thing I can think of that might make sense.

I googled it and it looks like this may have started with Epicurus' philosophy. It sounds like what he was really trying to say was that the absence of all pain would be a like a zen state of ultimate peace and remove the need to pursue pleasure. He also indicates that chasing pleasure only ultimately leads to more pain. He also used this as a way to avoid fear of death. From his wiki page, "death is nothing to us," since there is no pleasure or pain.

I disagree with the world view and this looks like it encourages a reactive lifestyle rather than proactive. If you spend your time avoiding suffering you would just end up avoiding any activity which always carries a risk of pain. He has a point that pursuing short term pleasure can lead to pain but a long range pursuit of happiness can take this into account.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2013 9:07:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
You are right.

There is pleasure, pain and nothing.

But the example you brought is wrong, you talked about death which you don't know about.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2013 2:58:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 8:39:21 AM, 2-D wrote:
At 12/15/2013 8:06:25 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

I don't think you're wrong on this one, unless the person was just speaking of some specific experience, like depression, maybe. If a person never experienced any pleasure any of the time, I would think they would tend to become very depressed, which can be psychologically and emotionally painful. Maybe they were comparing that to how darkness is really only the absence of light, or cold the absence of heat? It's the only thing I can think of that might make sense.

I googled it and it looks like this may have started with Epicurus' philosophy. It sounds like what he was really trying to say was that the absence of all pain would be a like a zen state of ultimate peace and remove the need to pursue pleasure. He also indicates that chasing pleasure only ultimately leads to more pain. He also used this as a way to avoid fear of death. From his wiki page, "death is nothing to us," since there is no pleasure or pain.

I disagree with the world view and this looks like it encourages a reactive lifestyle rather than proactive. If you spend your time avoiding suffering you would just end up avoiding any activity which always carries a risk of pain. He has a point that pursuing short term pleasure can lead to pain but a long range pursuit of happiness can take this into account.

I like that. I agree with you. For many people the pleasure comes from the risk of punishment or pain, or even from actually feeling pain. Long-range planning is everything. It's a shame so few of us figure that out before youth is gone.
SubterFugitive
Posts: 255
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2013 4:53:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

I too think this is an inadequate account, maybe sometimes pain is a privation but not all the time, sometimes it's positive in the sense that there is a qualia associated with the phenomena which is bad in and of itself.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2013 6:35:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

Do you mean physical pain, or emotional/spiritual pain? Also, is pain the same as suffering? I mean couldn't someone "suffer" in a sense, without physically feeling "pain"?

From a physical level, I'd say it's just the release of whatever chemicals in your brain.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2013 8:27:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 2:38:43 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/14/2013 2:36:37 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

You are right in that it makes no sense.

Pain comes from the release of chemicals like substance P, whereas pleasure comes from chemicals like dopamine. You can have one of those, both, or none at all at the same time in your system.

Very good point! Even if substance P was never released (that made me feel pain ever), dopamine still could be. Thus, I could still feel pleasure without pain. However, could it be the case that the dopamine would have more of an effect on someone who is in pain? Meaning, that you get the most out of it if you are in pain?

For someone who is truly in pain (especially chronic pain) pain-relievers provide no pleasure. Basically what you hope for is that it will take the edge off the pain and make it seem more distant. For that you pay the terrible price of the side-effects, which get worse the longer the drug is needed. Dopamine and substance P are only drugs.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2013 8:31:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/14/2013 3:08:39 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
Interesting post, rationalthinker.

I think pain is most likely the reserve of pleasure. If pleasure is understood to be the relieving of stress, then pain is the intensifying of stress. It's possible than pain or pleasure are active, accelerative phenomena.

This is a topic that has aroused deep curiosity in me, as well as other thinkers. I too am trying to find an answer to the mystery of pleasure and pain.

When you begin to dig deeper you start to learn that there is more than one kind of physical pain. For example, sharp pain causes a reaction before the signal even reaches the brain, while dull pain moves much slower and must reach the brain. Chronic pain is considered to be a disease of its own. Some interesting things have been discovered during the autopsies of people who lived with pain for an extended time.
2-D
Posts: 226
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2013 9:20:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 9:07:35 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
You are right.

There is pleasure, pain and nothing.

But the example you brought is wrong, you talked about death which you don't know about.

We know a lot about death, for instance it is the end of a person. From various studies involving brain damage, split brain patients etc scientists have discovered that everything about a persons consciousness is dependent on a physical brain.

The best information we have available indicates that a persons consciousness is completely destroyed after death since the brain is destroyed. Not something to focus on to improve your life but the knowledge does encourage us to live the best possible life since it's so precious and finite.
2-D
Posts: 226
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2013 9:23:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 2:58:43 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/16/2013 8:39:21 AM, 2-D wrote:
At 12/15/2013 8:06:25 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 12/14/2013 1:47:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I've heard people say that pain is just a lack of pleasure, or pleasure is just a lack of pain. That makes no sense to me. When you die, you lack pain (thus I should have pleasure according to this theory), and I lack pleasure (thus I should have pain) but I would have none! The fact that I can have neither pain or pleasure when I die, indicates that lacking one doesn't necessarily imply the other.

Am I wrong?

I don't think you're wrong on this one, unless the person was just speaking of some specific experience, like depression, maybe. If a person never experienced any pleasure any of the time, I would think they would tend to become very depressed, which can be psychologically and emotionally painful. Maybe they were comparing that to how darkness is really only the absence of light, or cold the absence of heat? It's the only thing I can think of that might make sense.

I googled it and it looks like this may have started with Epicurus' philosophy. It sounds like what he was really trying to say was that the absence of all pain would be a like a zen state of ultimate peace and remove the need to pursue pleasure. He also indicates that chasing pleasure only ultimately leads to more pain. He also used this as a way to avoid fear of death. From his wiki page, "death is nothing to us," since there is no pleasure or pain.

I disagree with the world view and this looks like it encourages a reactive lifestyle rather than proactive. If you spend your time avoiding suffering you would just end up avoiding any activity which always carries a risk of pain. He has a point that pursuing short term pleasure can lead to pain but a long range pursuit of happiness can take this into account.

I like that. I agree with you. For many people the pleasure comes from the risk of punishment or pain, or even from actually feeling pain. Long-range planning is everything. It's a shame so few of us figure that out before youth is gone.

Yes, and I like to emphasize that without risking pain we can't achieve anything or attain any values. The pursuit of an absence of pain, that he encouraged, is a completely empty life motivated by fear of suffering rather than the pursuit of happiness. Live in fear or take some risks.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2013 11:18:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 9:20:31 PM, 2-D wrote:
At 12/16/2013 9:07:35 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
You are right.

There is pleasure, pain and nothing.

But the example you brought is wrong, you talked about death which you don't know about.

We know a lot about death, for instance it is the end of a person.

The above statement is false according to all religions, it shows you believe a person is just a body.

From various studies involving brain damage, split brain patients etc scientists have discovered that everything about a persons consciousness is dependent on a physical brain.

The best information we have available indicates that a persons consciousness is completely destroyed after death since the brain is destroyed. Not something to focus on to improve your life but the knowledge does encourage us to live the best possible life since it's so precious and finite.

How could science even know about the soul !!
2-D
Posts: 226
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/16/2013 11:21:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 11:18:08 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/16/2013 9:20:31 PM, 2-D wrote:
At 12/16/2013 9:07:35 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
You are right.

There is pleasure, pain and nothing.

But the example you brought is wrong, you talked about death which you don't know about.

We know a lot about death, for instance it is the end of a person.

The above statement is false according to all religions, it shows you believe a person is just a body.

From various studies involving brain damage, split brain patients etc scientists have discovered that everything about a persons consciousness is dependent on a physical brain.

The best information we have available indicates that a persons consciousness is completely destroyed after death since the brain is destroyed. Not something to focus on to improve your life but the knowledge does encourage us to live the best possible life since it's so precious and finite.

How could science even know about the soul !!

Available evidence has made it unlikely that consciousness survives after death. If you're convinced otherwise then lets move this conversation to a debate.