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Do animals suffer as humans do?

muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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12/16/2013 8:43:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Animal suffering seems quite senseless and unnecessary. It is also quite horrific. It is difficult to imagine that a merciful god would allow ages upon ages of animal suffering to go on.

Theists such as WLC argue that animals don't experience pain in the same way as humans do, so it's ok for god to allow this pain. I don't think this is a good excuse. Please try to convince me that it is. And also watch these videos.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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12/17/2013 6:11:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/16/2013 8:43:12 PM, muslimnomore wrote:

Theists such as WLC argue that animals don't experience pain in the same way as humans do, so it's ok for god to allow this pain. I don't think this is a good excuse. Please try to convince me that it is. And also watch these videos.


There is no reason to suggest their suffering is different, maybe their emotional suffering is a little different or less complex.

Now for is it Ok or not for God to allow that , what does this question mean exactly?! if God has the ultimate authority, ownership and truth, what does the question even mean ? if reason says of course yes, and your emotions say no, what will that change ? Why do you constantly want to judge God for things He owns legitimately just to avoid Him to judge you about things you don't own ?
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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12/17/2013 8:09:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 6:11:55 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/16/2013 8:43:12 PM, muslimnomore wrote:

Theists such as WLC argue that animals don't experience pain in the same way as humans do, so it's ok for god to allow this pain. I don't think this is a good excuse. Please try to convince me that it is. And also watch these videos.


There is no reason to suggest their suffering is different, maybe their emotional suffering is a little different or less complex.

Now for is it Ok or not for God to allow that , what does this question mean exactly?! if God has the ultimate authority, ownership and truth, what does the question even mean ? if reason says of course yes, and your emotions say no, what will that change ? Why do you constantly want to judge God for things He owns legitimately just to avoid Him to judge you about things you don't own ?

You claim your god is merciful. creating a world where animals suffer so horribly is not the trait of a merciful entity. therein lies the problem.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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12/17/2013 8:21:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You claim your god is merciful. creating a world where animals suffer so horribly is not the trait of a merciful entity. therein lies the problem.

Hmm...maybe. If the alternative to suffering is oblivion (never existing in the first-place), then it can be argued that simply allowing animals to live is merciful, even if it can lead to suffering.

If an omniscient God also plans on granting these animals an eternal heaven full of unlimited happiness, (which some claim), then it can also be argued that putting up with a few years of suffering on Earth is well worth this prize, and thus, merciful.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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12/17/2013 8:24:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 8:21:03 PM, HPWKA wrote:
You claim your god is merciful. creating a world where animals suffer so horribly is not the trait of a merciful entity. therein lies the problem.

Hmm...maybe. If the alternative to suffering is oblivion (never existing in the first-place), then it can be argued that simply allowing animals to live is merciful, even if it can lead to suffering.

If an omniscient God also plans on granting these animals an eternal heaven full of unlimited happiness, (which some claim), then it can also be argued that putting up with a few years of suffering on Earth is well worth this prize, and thus, merciful.

Living in misery is better than not existing? If I create something (like a chicken that ends up in KFC), that experiences nothing but misery in its entire existence; that's more merciful than not creating anything at all? I don't follow the logic here.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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12/17/2013 8:48:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Living in misery is better than not existing? If I create something (like a chicken that ends up in KFC), that experiences nothing but misery in its entire existence; that's more merciful than not creating anything at all? I don't follow the logic here.

I don't agree with this line of reasoning either, but since nobody can really compare life as we know it to this "oblivion", we can't really say that God isn't being merciful, even if suffering is occurring on Earth.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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12/18/2013 7:05:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/17/2013 8:09:12 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
At 12/17/2013 6:11:55 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/16/2013 8:43:12 PM, muslimnomore wrote:

Theists such as WLC argue that animals don't experience pain in the same way as humans do, so it's ok for god to allow this pain. I don't think this is a good excuse. Please try to convince me that it is. And also watch these videos.


There is no reason to suggest their suffering is different, maybe their emotional suffering is a little different or less complex.

Now for is it Ok or not for God to allow that , what does this question mean exactly?! if God has the ultimate authority, ownership and truth, what does the question even mean ? if reason says of course yes, and your emotions say no, what will that change ? Why do you constantly want to judge God for things He owns legitimately just to avoid Him to judge you about things you don't own ?

You claim your god is merciful. creating a world where animals suffer so horribly is not the trait of a merciful entity. therein lies the problem.

I think there just is a misunderstanding, Mercy isn't His only trait do you see, not His only action, if He does other things besides mercy , He still is merciful.

And His mercy is shared on earth between the creatures, and will specifically be given to the winners in the here-after. It's no where said that He is EXCLUSIVELY Merciful.

Take this hadeeth that may help you understand how it is:

Salman reported that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said:

Verily, Allah created, on the same very day when He created the heavens and the earth, one hundred parts of mercy. Every part of mercy is coextensive with the space between the heavens. and the earth and He out of this mercy endowed one part to the earth and it is because of this that the mother shows affection to her child and even the beasts and birds show kindness to one another and when there would be the Day of Resurrection, Allah would make full (use of Mercy).

http://sunnah.com...

The existence off suffering ,doesn't undermine the existence of Mercy.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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12/18/2013 12:25:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The existence off suffering ,doesn't undermine the existence of Mercy.

Agreed, but the argument usually revolves around the fact that God (in Islam's case at least) is supposed to be the MOST merciful, not just possess some modicum of mercy, which shifts the debate.

Regardless, I think the whole business of trying to pin a "God" as merciful or not is a fruitless exercise, as we simply don't have enough information to judge what true "mercy" is.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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12/18/2013 8:09:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 7:05:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/17/2013 8:09:12 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
At 12/17/2013 6:11:55 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/16/2013 8:43:12 PM, muslimnomore wrote:

Theists such as WLC argue that animals don't experience pain in the same way as humans do, so it's ok for god to allow this pain. I don't think this is a good excuse. Please try to convince me that it is. And also watch these videos.


There is no reason to suggest their suffering is different, maybe their emotional suffering is a little different or less complex.

Now for is it Ok or not for God to allow that , what does this question mean exactly?! if God has the ultimate authority, ownership and truth, what does the question even mean ? if reason says of course yes, and your emotions say no, what will that change ? Why do you constantly want to judge God for things He owns legitimately just to avoid Him to judge you about things you don't own ?

You claim your god is merciful. creating a world where animals suffer so horribly is not the trait of a merciful entity. therein lies the problem.

I think there just is a misunderstanding, Mercy isn't His only trait do you see, not His only action, if He does other things besides mercy , He still is merciful.

And His mercy is shared on earth between the creatures, and will specifically be given to the winners in the here-after. It's no where said that He is EXCLUSIVELY Merciful.

Take this hadeeth that may help you understand how it is:


Salman reported that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said:

Verily, Allah created, on the same very day when He created the heavens and the earth, one hundred parts of mercy. Every part of mercy is coextensive with the space between the heavens. and the earth and He out of this mercy endowed one part to the earth and it is because of this that the mother shows affection to her child and even the beasts and birds show kindness to one another and when there would be the Day of Resurrection, Allah would make full (use of Mercy).

http://sunnah.com...

The existence off suffering ,doesn't undermine the existence of Mercy.

If you sat by and watched children die from cancer when yu had the power to stop their suffering, i would not call your merciful. if you needlessly caused so much animal suffering i would not call you merciful. why does god deserve this title?
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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12/19/2013 7:38:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/18/2013 8:09:07 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
At 12/18/2013 7:05:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/17/2013 8:09:12 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
At 12/17/2013 6:11:55 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/16/2013 8:43:12 PM, muslimnomore wrote:

Theists such as WLC argue that animals don't experience pain in the same way as humans do, so it's ok for god to allow this pain. I don't think this is a good excuse. Please try to convince me that it is. And also watch these videos.


There is no reason to suggest their suffering is different, maybe their emotional suffering is a little different or less complex.

Now for is it Ok or not for God to allow that , what does this question mean exactly?! if God has the ultimate authority, ownership and truth, what does the question even mean ? if reason says of course yes, and your emotions say no, what will that change ? Why do you constantly want to judge God for things He owns legitimately just to avoid Him to judge you about things you don't own ?

You claim your god is merciful. creating a world where animals suffer so horribly is not the trait of a merciful entity. therein lies the problem.

I think there just is a misunderstanding, Mercy isn't His only trait do you see, not His only action, if He does other things besides mercy , He still is merciful.

And His mercy is shared on earth between the creatures, and will specifically be given to the winners in the here-after. It's no where said that He is EXCLUSIVELY Merciful.

Take this hadeeth that may help you understand how it is:


Salman reported that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said:

Verily, Allah created, on the same very day when He created the heavens and the earth, one hundred parts of mercy. Every part of mercy is coextensive with the space between the heavens. and the earth and He out of this mercy endowed one part to the earth and it is because of this that the mother shows affection to her child and even the beasts and birds show kindness to one another and when there would be the Day of Resurrection, Allah would make full (use of Mercy).

http://sunnah.com...

The existence off suffering ,doesn't undermine the existence of Mercy.

If you sat by and watched children die from cancer when yu had the power to stop their suffering, i would not call your merciful. if you needlessly caused so much animal suffering i would not call you merciful. why does god deserve this title?

Cause He created Mercy.
muslimnomore
Posts: 369
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12/19/2013 8:15:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/19/2013 7:38:04 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/18/2013 8:09:07 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
At 12/18/2013 7:05:18 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/17/2013 8:09:12 PM, muslimnomore wrote:
At 12/17/2013 6:11:55 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 12/16/2013 8:43:12 PM, muslimnomore wrote:

Theists such as WLC argue that animals don't experience pain in the same way as humans do, so it's ok for god to allow this pain. I don't think this is a good excuse. Please try to convince me that it is. And also watch these videos.


There is no reason to suggest their suffering is different, maybe their emotional suffering is a little different or less complex.

Now for is it Ok or not for God to allow that , what does this question mean exactly?! if God has the ultimate authority, ownership and truth, what does the question even mean ? if reason says of course yes, and your emotions say no, what will that change ? Why do you constantly want to judge God for things He owns legitimately just to avoid Him to judge you about things you don't own ?

You claim your god is merciful. creating a world where animals suffer so horribly is not the trait of a merciful entity. therein lies the problem.

I think there just is a misunderstanding, Mercy isn't His only trait do you see, not His only action, if He does other things besides mercy , He still is merciful.

And His mercy is shared on earth between the creatures, and will specifically be given to the winners in the here-after. It's no where said that He is EXCLUSIVELY Merciful.

Take this hadeeth that may help you understand how it is:


Salman reported that Allah's Messenger (PBUH) said:

Verily, Allah created, on the same very day when He created the heavens and the earth, one hundred parts of mercy. Every part of mercy is coextensive with the space between the heavens. and the earth and He out of this mercy endowed one part to the earth and it is because of this that the mother shows affection to her child and even the beasts and birds show kindness to one another and when there would be the Day of Resurrection, Allah would make full (use of Mercy).

http://sunnah.com...

The existence off suffering ,doesn't undermine the existence of Mercy.

If you sat by and watched children die from cancer when yu had the power to stop their suffering, i would not call your merciful. if you needlessly caused so much animal suffering i would not call you merciful. why does god deserve this title?

Cause He created Mercy.

I baked a brownies once, no one calls me Chef.