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Christians riddle me this.

johnlubba
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12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,075
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12/23/2013 2:14:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

johnlubba It is good to meet you..

I reply: I think you are a little mixed up..
1) Adam sinned and was removed from heaven. Sin brought "DEATH" into the world! God does EVERYTHING PERFECT he would not be God if he was not PERFECT! Death had to be removed>>> sin had to be removed >>>To restore Life!

2) Sin is removed, death is no more, "MAN" (Adam' children) can again enter heaven because Jesus destroyed death; By dying he restored "LIFE" by rising from the dead!

Think: Jesus was sinless... He was without sin so he could not die... (Again.. Sin brings death)
Jesus the "PERFECT MAN" died: He "POPPED" up out of the grave as a cork would rise to the top of a pool of water, death had no hold on Jesus!

ALL.....
johnlubba all people added to the body of Jesus will also rise up!

Think.... NO ONE....
johnlubba no one can die more then one time.. You can't even kill a stinking old mangy dog twice... even the dog can have; Is allowed only one death!
Jesus died, he has been there and done that... he can't die again!

All people "ADDED" to Jesus.... All peoples Re-Born into the body of Jesus here on earth will rise, all ADDED to Jesus' holy body CAN'T die!

Dogknox
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/23/2013 3:52:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

Antichrists and false prophets made their Christians believe all kinds of lies.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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12/23/2013 4:12:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

God interacted with quite a few men (sinners). Christs purpose in redemption wasn't interaction with sinners. So its a false dilemma, but an understandable mistake.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/29/2013 12:46:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/23/2013 4:12:22 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

God interacted with quite a few men (sinners). Christs purpose in redemption wasn't interaction with sinners. So its a false dilemma, but an understandable mistake.

So if God is able to interact with man, then there is no reason to send Jesus to act as an intermediate between God and man. To say that Jesus had to die to defeat death or sin is barmy, simply because nothing has power over God and God could have chosen to defeat death simply by willing it, rather than have his beloved son nailed to a cross, who was always guaranteed to be resurrected in any case, it all seems like a pretty pointless exercise if you ask me.

I see no reason for Jesus to act as intermediate when God is fully capable of doing whatever it is Jesus done by defeating so called death or sin.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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12/29/2013 12:58:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 12:46:26 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/23/2013 4:12:22 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

God interacted with quite a few men (sinners). Christs purpose in redemption wasn't interaction with sinners. So its a false dilemma, but an understandable mistake.


So if God is able to interact with man, then there is no reason to send Jesus to act as an intermediate between God and man. To say that Jesus had to die to defeat death or sin is barmy, simply because nothing has power over God and God could have chosen to defeat death simply by willing it, rather than have his beloved son nailed to a cross, who was always guaranteed to be resurrected in any case, it all seems like a pretty pointless exercise if you ask me.

I see no reason for Jesus to act as intermediate when God is fully capable of doing whatever it is Jesus done by defeating so called death or sin.

First, Christ is God. So he sent himself.

Second, in his creation he created what is righteous to do, and the consequences of being unrighteous. Since man was unrighteous, he had to suffer the consequences, otherwise God would be a liar.

Third, since God is not a liar, and actually pretty frickin awesome, he came as a man to show us all how its done, by his own laws, to atone for his people.

Death/sin had no power over God, which is why he beat it. It had power over humanity, but no longer does for those he chose to free from it.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/29/2013 1:16:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 12:58:47 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/29/2013 12:46:26 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/23/2013 4:12:22 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

God interacted with quite a few men (sinners). Christs purpose in redemption wasn't interaction with sinners. So its a false dilemma, but an understandable mistake.


So if God is able to interact with man, then there is no reason to send Jesus to act as an intermediate between God and man. To say that Jesus had to die to defeat death or sin is barmy, simply because nothing has power over God and God could have chosen to defeat death simply by willing it, rather than have his beloved son nailed to a cross, who was always guaranteed to be resurrected in any case, it all seems like a pretty pointless exercise if you ask me.

I see no reason for Jesus to act as intermediate when God is fully capable of doing whatever it is Jesus done by defeating so called death or sin.

First, Christ is God. So he sent himself.

Second, in his creation he created what is righteous to do, and the consequences of being unrighteous. Since man was unrighteous, he had to suffer the consequences, otherwise God would be a liar.

Third, since God is not a liar, and actually pretty frickin awesome, he came as a man to show us all how its done, by his own laws, to atone for his people.

Death/sin had no power over God, which is why he beat it. It had power over humanity, but no longer does for those he chose to free from it.

So he sent himself as his beloved son. lol,

do you not see the irony in this?

So Christ actually act's as an intermediate between God and man, But in fact Christ is supposedly God, so again I see this as a pointless excircise.

It's not logically consistent, in fact it is fully illogical.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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12/29/2013 1:37:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 1:16:08 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/29/2013 12:58:47 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
First, Christ is God. So he sent himself.

Second, in his creation he created what is righteous to do, and the consequences of being unrighteous. Since man was unrighteous, he had to suffer the consequences, otherwise God would be a liar.

Third, since God is not a liar, and actually pretty frickin awesome, he came as a man to show us all how its done, by his own laws, to atone for his people.

Death/sin had no power over God, which is why he beat it. It had power over humanity, but no longer does for those he chose to free from it.


So he sent himself as his beloved son. lol,

That's what he called him, but obviously it wasn't his literal son.

do you not see the irony in this?

I don't see any irony, only arrogance.

So Christ actually act's as an intermediate between God and man, But in fact Christ is supposedly God, so again I see this as a pointless excircise.

It's not logically consistent, in fact it is fully illogical.

The way you're trying to explain it is whats illogical.

Its really not hard to understand. Man defied God, this defiance created a disease, if you will. God, in his holiness, decreed that the Just consequence for their defiance(sin) be death; sickness, pain, suffering, limitedness, etc.

He also determined, in his omniscience, that the only Just way to bring man back into his grace, would be a man (like them) redeeming his people through living perfectly and dying for them. SO, he became a man, and did it himself.

But, I'm sorry that your up this late being trouble with such questions, it must be pretty tough for you.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/29/2013 1:46:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 1:37:06 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/29/2013 1:16:08 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/29/2013 12:58:47 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
First, Christ is God. So he sent himself.

Second, in his creation he created what is righteous to do, and the consequences of being unrighteous. Since man was unrighteous, he had to suffer the consequences, otherwise God would be a liar.

Third, since God is not a liar, and actually pretty frickin awesome, he came as a man to show us all how its done, by his own laws, to atone for his people.

Death/sin had no power over God, which is why he beat it. It had power over humanity, but no longer does for those he chose to free from it.


So he sent himself as his beloved son. lol,

That's what he called him, but obviously it wasn't his literal son.

do you not see the irony in this?

I don't see any irony, only arrogance.

I stopped reading here and refuse to read further until you notice your own arrogance
and the illogicality of your own admissions,

You claim God called Himself his own son, Why is it necessary to call yourself your own son when it's really yourself, totally illogical and not in the slightest am I being arrogant, I am afraid that you need not look further than your own self to find that.
So Christ actually act's as an intermediate between God and man, But in fact Christ is supposedly God, so again I see this as a pointless excircise.

It's not logically consistent, in fact it is fully illogical.

The way you're trying to explain it is whats illogical.

Its really not hard to understand. Man defied God, this defiance created a disease, if you will. God, in his holiness, decreed that the Just consequence for their defiance(sin) be death; sickness, pain, suffering, limitedness, etc.

He also determined, in his omniscience, that the only Just way to bring man back into his grace, would be a man (like them) redeeming his people through living perfectly and dying for them. SO, he became a man, and did it himself.


But, I'm sorry that your up this late being trouble with such questions, it must be pretty tough for you.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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12/29/2013 2:03:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 1:46:58 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/29/2013 1:37:06 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/29/2013 1:16:08 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/29/2013 12:58:47 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
First, Christ is God. So he sent himself.

Second, in his creation he created what is righteous to do, and the consequences of being unrighteous. Since man was unrighteous, he had to suffer the consequences, otherwise God would be a liar.

Third, since God is not a liar, and actually pretty frickin awesome, he came as a man to show us all how its done, by his own laws, to atone for his people.

Death/sin had no power over God, which is why he beat it. It had power over humanity, but no longer does for those he chose to free from it.


So he sent himself as his beloved son. lol,

That's what he called him, but obviously it wasn't his literal son.

do you not see the irony in this?

I don't see any irony, only arrogance.

I stopped reading here and refuse to read further until you notice your own arrogance
and the illogicality of your own admissions,

You claim God called Himself his own son, Why is it necessary to call yourself your own son when it's really yourself, totally illogical and not in the slightest am I being arrogant, I am afraid that you need not look further than your own self to find that.

Lol, you want me to admit the illogicality of my own admissions?

Christ wasn't his literal son, and the title Son in reference to Jesus was that of his incarnation as a MAN, but also to establish equality with God.

John 5:18 - 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

If you're gonna try and have a real discussion with someone, try leaving out the "illogicality's" until you've at least ask me to explain further; or you can stop being lazy, do the research yourself and then ask an educated question.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Cortney.ewing86
Posts: 75
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12/29/2013 2:17:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

God and Jesus is not the same God is the father and Jesus is the son but
They are one in the same
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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12/29/2013 2:21:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 2:17:50 AM, Cortney.ewing86 wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

God and Jesus is not the same God is the father and Jesus is the son but
They are one in the same

Just to clarify, you are saying the relationship between God and Jesus is Father and Son, but the relationship between God and Christ is one and the same?

That is, his nature as both God and man.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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12/29/2013 2:36:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 12:58:47 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Third, since God is not a liar, . . .
Incorrect!

Story book gods lies started when it claimed Adam would die the day he partook of the forbidden fruit! (Gen. 2:17) Story book

In NO way (neither literally nor spiritually as some have suggested) did they die on that Day!

Story book god is a proven LIAR whilst the Serpent told the absolute Truth! (Gen. 3:3-4) bible Story book
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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12/29/2013 2:38:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 2:17:50 AM, Cortney.ewing86 wrote:
God and Jesus is not the same God is the father and Jesus is the son but
They are one in the same.
"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian"It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461).
Cortney.ewing86
Posts: 75
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12/29/2013 2:59:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 2:21:26 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/29/2013 2:17:50 AM, Cortney.ewing86 wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

God and Jesus is not the same God is the father and Jesus is the son but
They are one in the same

Just to clarify, you are saying the relationship between God and Jesus is Father and Son, but the relationship between God and Christ is one and the same?

That is, his nature as both God and man.

Jesus and Christ is the same identity. God was never man but Jesus Christ took the form of man. God and Jesus/Christ is one IN the same.
Cortney.ewing86
Posts: 75
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12/29/2013 3:00:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 2:38:53 AM, Composer wrote:
At 12/29/2013 2:17:50 AM, Cortney.ewing86 wrote:
God and Jesus is not the same God is the father and Jesus is the son but
They are one in the same.
"At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian"It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the New Testament and other early Christian writings" (Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics, ed. James Hastings, 1922, Vol. 12, p. 461).

There is no trinity only the father and the son.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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12/29/2013 3:49:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 2:59:16 AM, Cortney.ewing86 wrote:
At 12/29/2013 2:21:26 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just to clarify, you are saying the relationship between God and Jesus is Father and Son, but the relationship between God and Christ is one and the same?

That is, his nature as both God and man.

Jesus and Christ is the same identity. God was never man but Jesus Christ took the form of man. God and Jesus/Christ is one IN the same.

Yes, they are the same identity, but with 2 natures: Man and God.

I'm having trouble comprehending the bold portion. We agree, The God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are 3 in 1. But with that said, if a part of God took on the form of a man, and became lower then the angels for a time, then he did become man...
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
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12/29/2013 5:40:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 2:03:10 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/29/2013 1:46:58 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/29/2013 1:37:06 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/29/2013 1:16:08 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/29/2013 12:58:47 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
First, Christ is God. So he sent himself.

Second, in his creation he created what is righteous to do, and the consequences of being unrighteous. Since man was unrighteous, he had to suffer the consequences, otherwise God would be a liar.

Third, since God is not a liar, and actually pretty frickin awesome, he came as a man to show us all how its done, by his own laws, to atone for his people.

Death/sin had no power over God, which is why he beat it. It had power over humanity, but no longer does for those he chose to free from it.


So he sent himself as his beloved son. lol,

That's what he called him, but obviously it wasn't his literal son.

do you not see the irony in this?

I don't see any irony, only arrogance.

I stopped reading here and refuse to read further until you notice your own arrogance
and the illogicality of your own admissions,

You claim God called Himself his own son, Why is it necessary to call yourself your own son when it's really yourself, totally illogical and not in the slightest am I being arrogant, I am afraid that you need not look further than your own self to find that.

Lol, you want me to admit the illogicality of my own admissions?

Christ wasn't his literal son, and the title Son in reference to Jesus was that of his incarnation as a MAN, but also to establish equality with God.

John 5:18 - 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Firstly it's pointless to call yourself your own son when in fact it's only yourself, even if God takes on a human form it is illogical to claim he is his own son.

Secondly you claim they are equal, when Jesus himself claimed the Farther who sent him is greater.

By any logic Christ is speaking of another who is greater. Then he is not God if there is another who is greater. God must be defined in the very least as supreme, supreme means the highest authority or the first in rank. Christ admits there is another who is greater, making a distinction between himself and another who is greater.

If you're gonna try and have a real discussion with someone, try leaving out the "illogicality's" until you've at least ask me to explain further; or you can stop being lazy, do the research yourself and then ask an educated question.

The above is nothing but your arrogance again and not worthy of a response apart to telling you that you are arrogant.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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12/29/2013 9:35:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 12:46:26 AM, johnlubba wrote:
At 12/23/2013 4:12:22 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

God interacted with quite a few men (sinners). Christs purpose in redemption wasn't interaction with sinners. So its a false dilemma, but an understandable mistake.


So if God is able to interact with man, then there is no reason to send Jesus to act as an intermediate between God and man. To say that Jesus had to die to defeat death or sin is barmy, simply because nothing has power over God and God could have chosen to defeat death simply by willing it, rather than have his beloved son nailed to a cross, who was always guaranteed to be resurrected in any case, it all seems like a pretty pointless exercise if you ask me.

I see no reason for Jesus to act as intermediate when God is fully capable of doing whatever it is Jesus done by defeating so called death or sin.

You're right, No man's flesh will save the day for God's sinners. God already planned the salvation of ALL His people and us saints were put into this world to share this information with whoever listens to us. These listeners are called believers. God also chose unbelievers to reject the gospel we saints preach where this information from God can be heard by believers. These unbelievers get jealous of all the believers who are listening to God's saint and their jealousy leads to anger and anger leads to the death of the saints and some of the believers who reject the lies of the unbelievers who kill the saint.

So we prophets and saints are killed because of our testimonies, not because we are dying for the sins of God's people.

Revelation 6
9: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne;

Psalm 116
16. Precious in the sight of thy Lord is the death of his saints.

God already planned the deaths of us saints before any visible world appeared.

Ephesians 1
1: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4: even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.
5: He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
9: For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ
10: as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Christ is the invisible hidden knowledge of God that ALL us saints spoke from.
PGA
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12/29/2013 8:59:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

God still interacts with man, but fellowship or relationship with God has been disrupted by mans willful disobedience to what is good. Man has chosen, in Adam, to do his own thing. God warned that the day that man eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge man would surely die. That happened.

Since God is good and just something that is wrong deserves punishment. How could someone who is pure and holy allow evil in His presence without punishing it. Therefore the Son, being God, not only did something man is incapable of doing (since the Fall) in that He lived the perfect life required by God to restore fellowship/relationship, but He also met God's justice in dying the death that man deserved to die. In this way all God's righteous requirements were/are met on behalf of those who put their trust/faith/reliance/dependance in what Jesus did. You see, He took on human life in order to do these things for mankind - live a perfectly good life before God and meet God's justice by paying the penalty for the evil man has done.

When the Son took on humanity He did not stop being God but laid aside His privileges as God in order to meet the requirements that God requires of man so that man can enjoy and love Him.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

I think it makes sense and is logical. When God created man He made man in His image and likeness with the ability to make choices. God made man to know Him, enjoy Him, have a relationship with Him, but in Adam He gave man the choice to decide to continue on in this relationship and know God more fully or find out what evil is. Evil is the lack of goodness which is who God is. Man chose to find out what evil is. Evil is acting outside of God's goodness. God explained to Adam what would be the consequences of eating of the tree of knowledge.

You, I, everyone, understand evil to some extent because we experience it and do it every day. The very fact that you make moral judgments shows this and the fact that even though mankind was marred with the Fall, he still retains some of the qualities that make him like God, which no other physical creature on this earth has.

Once man rejected this relationship and chose to know both good and evil God barred man from His presence. What qualities does light share with darkness, goodness with evil?

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

God, in the Son, the living Word, chose to become human/flesh in order to restore man to a relationship with God so that we can live in pure loving relationship with God. He could have destroyed His creature man or allowed man to continue on in his inhumanity but in love He chose to restore that relationship. It is restored only in/through the Son of God.

If you think you can live a perfect relationship before God, thus receive His blessings you have already failed. Have you ever lied, stolen, committed adultery, murdered, hated, lusted, coveted? Then you have failed to meet His perfect righteous requirements. The Bible teaches you deserve punishment/condemnation.

Peter
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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12/29/2013 10:50:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/23/2013 4:12:22 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

God interacted with quite a few men (sinners). Christs purpose in redemption wasn't interaction with sinners. So its a false dilemma, but an understandable mistake.

That's about half-true. It's simply a false dilemma, a straw-man argument centered on the word "interact". Understandable? No.

It amazes me at times on here that people think that if Jesus is also God, or a part of the godhead, that that would kinda bump the Father out. The Father and the Son are not the same person or personality - and never were. The question is: are both deity and a part of the godhead and worthy of worship?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
MassiveDump
Posts: 3,423
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12/29/2013 11:50:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners.

I don't think that's why God didn't go to Earth as himself. I don't think the Bible says that, I don't think a good majority of Christians believe that.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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12/30/2013 12:36:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/29/2013 10:50:52 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/23/2013 4:12:22 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

God interacted with quite a few men (sinners). Christs purpose in redemption wasn't interaction with sinners. So its a false dilemma, but an understandable mistake.

That's about half-true. It's simply a false dilemma, a straw-man argument centered on the word "interact". Understandable? No.

I was trying to be gracious.. lol

The Father and the Son are not the same person or personality - and never were. The question is: are both deity and a part of the godhead and worthy of worship?

Yes.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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12/30/2013 1:31:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

An actor/actress has roles that they play, correct? Well with that analogy, God has 3roles He puts forth.. But still is God in all 3 Persons united as One! Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God came down as a man known as the God-Man filled Spirit Being! They all work together as One!
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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12/30/2013 2:07:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:31:30 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

An actor/actress has roles that they play, correct? Well with that analogy, God has 3roles He puts forth.. But still is God in all 3 Persons united as One! Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God came down as a man known as the God-Man filled Spirit Being! They all work together as One!

You know, that's a pretty decent analogy even if it doesn't hold up if carried out far enough. It's still pretty good, and holds far enough as to say that all the actors, while having different roles and different functions, are all united in one common purpose. Some see a real ... an almost tangible ... contradiction in saying, "There is one God, but three persons." No matter what one says, they think, "One God equals one person" - and thus to claim that Jesus is also deity somehow robs the Father of His position.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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12/30/2013 2:12:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 2:07:35 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:31:30 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

An actor/actress has roles that they play, correct? Well with that analogy, God has 3roles He puts forth.. But still is God in all 3 Persons united as One! Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God came down as a man known as the God-Man filled Spirit Being! They all work together as One!

You know, that's a pretty decent analogy even if it doesn't hold up if carried out far enough. It's still pretty good, and holds far enough as to say that all the actors, while having different roles and different functions, are all united in one common purpose. Some see a real ... an almost tangible ... contradiction in saying, "There is one God, but three persons." No matter what one says, they think, "One God equals one person" - and thus to claim that Jesus is also deity somehow robs the Father of His position.

Well, they have to answer to God for that.. I'm just answering the question to help out as best as I can.. :)
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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12/30/2013 2:46:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 2:12:11 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/30/2013 2:07:35 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:31:30 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

An actor/actress has roles that they play, correct? Well with that analogy, God has 3roles He puts forth.. But still is God in all 3 Persons united as One! Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God came down as a man known as the God-Man filled Spirit Being! They all work together as One!

You know, that's a pretty decent analogy even if it doesn't hold up if carried out far enough. It's still pretty good, and holds far enough as to say that all the actors, while having different roles and different functions, are all united in one common purpose. Some see a real ... an almost tangible ... contradiction in saying, "There is one God, but three persons." No matter what one says, they think, "One God equals one person" - and thus to claim that Jesus is also deity somehow robs the Father of His position.

Well, they have to answer to God for that.. I'm just answering the question to help out as best as I can.. :)

How do you feel about the apparently common descriptor "co-equal"? I tend to avoid it because it begs the question "Co-equal in what respect?" I find that it involves endless quibbling.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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12/30/2013 2:52:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 2:46:00 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/30/2013 2:12:11 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/30/2013 2:07:35 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:31:30 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

An actor/actress has roles that they play, correct? Well with that analogy, God has 3roles He puts forth.. But still is God in all 3 Persons united as One! Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God came down as a man known as the God-Man filled Spirit Being! They all work together as One!

You know, that's a pretty decent analogy even if it doesn't hold up if carried out far enough. It's still pretty good, and holds far enough as to say that all the actors, while having different roles and different functions, are all united in one common purpose. Some see a real ... an almost tangible ... contradiction in saying, "There is one God, but three persons." No matter what one says, they think, "One God equals one person" - and thus to claim that Jesus is also deity somehow robs the Father of His position.

Well, they have to answer to God for that.. I'm just answering the question to help out as best as I can.. :)

How do you feel about the apparently common descriptor "co-equal"? I tend to avoid it because it begs the question "Co-equal in what respect?" I find that it involves endless quibbling.

I've never actually heard the term before?
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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12/30/2013 3:03:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 2:52:01 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/30/2013 2:46:00 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/30/2013 2:12:11 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/30/2013 2:07:35 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:31:30 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

An actor/actress has roles that they play, correct? Well with that analogy, God has 3roles He puts forth.. But still is God in all 3 Persons united as One! Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God came down as a man known as the God-Man filled Spirit Being! They all work together as One!

You know, that's a pretty decent analogy even if it doesn't hold up if carried out far enough. It's still pretty good, and holds far enough as to say that all the actors, while having different roles and different functions, are all united in one common purpose. Some see a real ... an almost tangible ... contradiction in saying, "There is one God, but three persons." No matter what one says, they think, "One God equals one person" - and thus to claim that Jesus is also deity somehow robs the Father of His position.

Well, they have to answer to God for that.. I'm just answering the question to help out as best as I can.. :)

How do you feel about the apparently common descriptor "co-equal"? I tend to avoid it because it begs the question "Co-equal in what respect?" I find that it involves endless quibbling.

I've never actually heard the term before?

That's because you are a trinitarian. I had never heard it either until Unitarians (such as MadCornish) started trying to tell me what trinitarians believe!
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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12/30/2013 3:06:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 3:03:33 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/30/2013 2:52:01 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/30/2013 2:46:00 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/30/2013 2:12:11 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/30/2013 2:07:35 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:31:30 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 12/23/2013 10:50:55 AM, johnlubba wrote:
If Jesus is God and not different from God,

Then how is it that God could not reconcile with man due to man being full of sin and God not able to interact with sinners. But yet Jesus a mere man can do something the great God couldn't do, which is interact with sinners.

Does this make sense?

Even if it makes sense, it still makes no sense to say that Jesus is God, but able to interact with sinners on behalf of his father simply because his father due to some morality issue can not interact with sinners.

My point is both are not the same, one is able to do something the other can not do. and that is interact with sinners.

An actor/actress has roles that they play, correct? Well with that analogy, God has 3roles He puts forth.. But still is God in all 3 Persons united as One! Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God came down as a man known as the God-Man filled Spirit Being! They all work together as One!

You know, that's a pretty decent analogy even if it doesn't hold up if carried out far enough. It's still pretty good, and holds far enough as to say that all the actors, while having different roles and different functions, are all united in one common purpose. Some see a real ... an almost tangible ... contradiction in saying, "There is one God, but three persons." No matter what one says, they think, "One God equals one person" - and thus to claim that Jesus is also deity somehow robs the Father of His position.

Well, they have to answer to God for that.. I'm just answering the question to help out as best as I can.. :)

How do you feel about the apparently common descriptor "co-equal"? I tend to avoid it because it begs the question "Co-equal in what respect?" I find that it involves endless quibbling.

I've never actually heard the term before?

That's because you are a trinitarian. I had never heard it either until Unitarians (such as MadCornish) started trying to tell me what trinitarians believe!

Trinitarian? Ummmmmm okay...
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad