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Paradoxes of faith

superflymegastallion
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12/26/2013 4:29:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here is a question posted originally by Dr. Truth.

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
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12/26/2013 5:31:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 5:08:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Depends on what the nature of hell is.

It doesn't matter. If hell exists, it isn't heaven.
superflymegastallion
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12/26/2013 5:46:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'll do my best to delete the quotes to keep the pages short, unless what we discuss it directly relevant. I typically do a "XXXX.....XXXX" to keep everything in context and we know what I'm referring to.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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12/26/2013 5:56:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 5:51:56 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
The ability to make a choice.

Then I fail to see how God creating people who choose to reject him is a "paradox of faith" since when people are conceived of they do not instantly make a choice about whether or not to believe in God. This happens later, when they are introduced to some form of religion.
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
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12/26/2013 6:06:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Then I fail to... when they are introduced to some form of religion.
But god already knew that they would reject him. He's omniscient.

I forgot to add that this question is based on the above stated assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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12/26/2013 6:20:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 5:31:00 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
At 12/26/2013 5:08:54 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Depends on what the nature of hell is.

It doesn't matter. If hell exists, it isn't heaven.

Yes, it does matter.

It could be a place/state where people are punished or left to their own miserable devices for all eternity.
It could be a place/state where people go out of existence.
It could be a place/state where people are rehabilitated/restored/rejuvenated/reformed (etc) and made ready for heaven.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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12/26/2013 6:23:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 6:06:37 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Then I fail to... when they are introduced to some form of religion.
But god already knew that they would reject him. He's omniscient.

He's omniscient about events that occur in the present, and all the particular things that could potentially result from them. He doesn't know about things which haven't happened at all, so a person who hasn't heard of a god, but who might reject him later on, would not be prevented from being born by him.
superflymegastallion
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12/26/2013 6:30:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
" He's omniscient about events that occur in the present" "He doesn't know about things which haven't happened"
This makes him not omniscient. Omniscient means all knowing. I'm sorry if it sounds like I make it seem like you don't know what you're talking about. Not my intent.
So god is not omniscient according to your definition.
Installgentoo
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12/26/2013 6:38:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 6:30:30 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
" He's omniscient about events that occur in the present" "He doesn't know about things which haven't happened"
This makes him not omniscient. Omniscient means all knowing. I'm sorry if it sounds like I make it seem like you don't know what you're talking about. Not my intent.
So god is not omniscient according to your definition.

Omniscience has two definitions, one is inherent omniscience, being all-knowing of that which is occurring, the other is total omniscience, actually knowing everything that will occur. I hold to the first definition of God.

Source

https://en.wikipedia.org....

It seems you don't know what you are talking about.
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Posts: 720
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12/26/2013 7:46:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 6:23:06 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 12/26/2013 6:06:37 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Then I fail to... when they are introduced to some form of religion.
But god already knew that they would reject him. He's omniscient.

He's omniscient about events that occur in the present, and all the particular things that could potentially result from them. He doesn't know about things which haven't happened at all, so a person who hasn't heard of a god, but who might reject him later on, would not be prevented from being born by him.

So he knows that choice A will lead to either outcome B or C (i.e. foreknowledge)? If this is the case then free will does exist. However, if this is the case then god does not know what choice we will make and so god is not omniscient (all knowing) even though god has foreknowledge.
Installgentoo
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12/27/2013 12:45:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 7:46:09 PM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 12/26/2013 6:23:06 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 12/26/2013 6:06:37 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Then I fail to... when they are introduced to some form of religion.
But god already knew that they would reject him. He's omniscient.

He's omniscient about events that occur in the present, and all the particular things that could potentially result from them. He doesn't know about things which haven't happened at all, so a person who hasn't heard of a god, but who might reject him later on, would not be prevented from being born by him.

So he knows that choice A will lead to either outcome B or C (i.e. foreknowledge)? If this is the case then free will does exist. However, if this is the case then god does not know what choice we will make and so god is not omniscient (all knowing) even though god has foreknowledge.

He knows it is possible for all those things to happen, and assigns equal weight to all of them as "things that could necessarily happen". But if you were to act in some way where one thing was to happen, then he would believe that that thing will happen.
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
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12/27/2013 8:45:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Install,
"how God creating people who choose to reject him"
You are attempting to change the question, ,so I will repeat it.
Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

"He's omniscient about events that occur in the present".total omniscience, actually knowing everything that will occur"
In this question, it is total omniscience.
bulproof
Posts: 25,247
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12/27/2013 8:55:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/27/2013 8:45:30 AM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Install,
"how God creating people who choose to reject him"
You are attempting to change the question, ,so I will repeat it.
Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

"He's omniscient about events that occur in the present".total omniscience, actually knowing everything that will occur"
In this question, it is total omniscience.

He allegedly knew before creation who would and who wouldn't go to hell, free will has nothing to do with it.

Oops.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
ethang5
Posts: 4,104
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12/27/2013 9:20:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/27/2013 8:55:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/27/2013 8:45:30 AM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Install,
"how God creating people who choose to reject him"
You are attempting to change the question, ,so I will repeat it.
Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

"He's omniscient about events that occur in the present".total omniscience, actually knowing everything that will occur"
In this question, it is total omniscience.

He allegedly knew before creation who would and who wouldn't go to hell, free will has nothing to do with it.

Oops.

Illogical.

Just because God knows does not mean He made it so. I cannot see how it follows that because God knew X would happen tomorrow, He therefore deliberately caused X to happen.

Others phrase the argument this way. "Because God knows X will happen tomorrow, X MUST happen. This also is illogical. It does not seem illogical at first glance because it is structured incorrectly. There is no real causal link between God knowing X will happen and X happening. The correct structure is, God knows X will happen tomorrow because X WILL happen.

So because God knows which men will reject Him and which men will accept Him, in no wise means those men didn't have free will. God simply knew who would and would not freely choose Him.

I have never been able to get anyone who believes this sleight-of-logic claim to show me the logical progression from God simply knowing and the things necessity BECAUSE of God knowing.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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12/27/2013 9:21:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/27/2013 8:45:30 AM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Install,
"how God creating people who choose to reject him"
You are attempting to change the question, ,so I will repeat it.
Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

"He's omniscient about events that occur in the present".total omniscience, actually knowing everything that will occur"
In this question, it is total omniscience.

I'm not, you're wrong, now go along to bulproof's house and tip your fedoras to each other.
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
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12/27/2013 9:37:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Install,
I have re-worded the question for clarity.
Why would an totally omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?
bulproof
Posts: 25,247
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12/27/2013 6:26:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/27/2013 9:20:06 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/27/2013 8:55:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/27/2013 8:45:30 AM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Install,
"how God creating people who choose to reject him"
You are attempting to change the question, ,so I will repeat it.
Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

"He's omniscient about events that occur in the present".total omniscience, actually knowing everything that will occur"
In this question, it is total omniscience.

He allegedly knew before creation who would and who wouldn't go to hell, free will has nothing to do with it.

Oops.

Illogical.

Just because God knows does not mean He made it so. I cannot see how it follows that because God knew X would happen tomorrow, He therefore deliberately caused X to happen.
God knows that person X is going to hell, god creates person X. Who sent person X to hell?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Posts: 720
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12/28/2013 7:57:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/27/2013 12:45:07 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 12/26/2013 7:46:09 PM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 12/26/2013 6:23:06 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 12/26/2013 6:06:37 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Then I fail to... when they are introduced to some form of religion.
But god already knew that they would reject him. He's omniscient.

He's omniscient about events that occur in the present, and all the particular things that could potentially result from them. He doesn't know about things which haven't happened at all, so a person who hasn't heard of a god, but who might reject him later on, would not be prevented from being born by him.

So he knows that choice A will lead to either outcome B or C (i.e. foreknowledge)? If this is the case then free will does exist. However, if this is the case then god does not know what choice we will make and so god is not omniscient (all knowing) even though god has foreknowledge.

He knows it is possible for all those things to happen, and assigns equal weight to all of them as "things that could necessarily happen". But if you were to act in some way where one thing was to happen, then he would believe that that thing will happen.

Hence God is not all knowing. Thanks :)
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
Posts: 720
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12/28/2013 8:00:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/27/2013 9:20:06 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/27/2013 8:55:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/27/2013 8:45:30 AM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Install,
"how God creating people who choose to reject him"
You are attempting to change the question, ,so I will repeat it.
Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

"He's omniscient about events that occur in the present".total omniscience, actually knowing everything that will occur"
In this question, it is total omniscience.

He allegedly knew before creation who would and who wouldn't go to hell, free will has nothing to do with it.

Oops.

Illogical.

Just because God knows does not mean He made it so. I cannot see how it follows that because God knew X would happen tomorrow, He therefore deliberately caused X to happen.

Others phrase the argument this way. "Because God knows X will happen tomorrow, X MUST happen. This also is illogical. It does not seem illogical at first glance because it is structured incorrectly. There is no real causal link between God knowing X will happen and X happening. The correct structure is, God knows X will happen tomorrow because X WILL happen.

So because God knows which men will reject Him and which men will accept Him, in no wise means those men didn't have free will. God simply knew who would and would not freely choose Him.

I have never been able to get anyone who believes this sleight-of-logic claim to show me the logical progression from God simply knowing and the things necessity BECAUSE of God knowing.

So God knows you will go to hell as a person will make a choice that they will go to hell. So God is all knowing?

But if god is all knowing then there are no choices. If there are no choices then it is predetermined. If it is predetermined, who is it predetermined by?

Hint: Its God.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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12/28/2013 8:31:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/28/2013 7:57:03 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 12/27/2013 12:45:07 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 12/26/2013 7:46:09 PM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 12/26/2013 6:23:06 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 12/26/2013 6:06:37 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Then I fail to... when they are introduced to some form of religion.
But god already knew that they would reject him. He's omniscient.

He's omniscient about events that occur in the present, and all the particular things that could potentially result from them. He doesn't know about things which haven't happened at all, so a person who hasn't heard of a god, but who might reject him later on, would not be prevented from being born by him.

So he knows that choice A will lead to either outcome B or C (i.e. foreknowledge)? If this is the case then free will does exist. However, if this is the case then god does not know what choice we will make and so god is not omniscient (all knowing) even though god has foreknowledge.

He knows it is possible for all those things to happen, and assigns equal weight to all of them as "things that could necessarily happen". But if you were to act in some way where one thing was to happen, then he would believe that that thing will happen.

Hence God is not all knowing. Thanks :)

In which way is knowing every entailment of everyone's actions NOT being all-knowing? That is the very definition of omniscience.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,375
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12/28/2013 9:12:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/26/2013 4:29:55 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Here is a question posted originally by Dr. Truth.

This question is based on the following assumptions of god, so it applies only to this particular kind of god. If your god doesn't match these assumptions then ignore the question.

1. god is omniscient
2. god is loving
3. god is merciful
4. hell exists
5. free will exists

Question:

Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?
It is no doubt a tough question. When referring specifically to the God of the Bible, we are talking about a Creator working outside of natural law. So we have to take certain things into account like our ability to comprehend certain things will be limited. It seems you wish to keep things simple, but I really think you should be open to answering a question first, as at times it can be easier to answer specific questions when the askee knows where the asker is coming from. Particularly since your question comes across as an implication as well as a question (the possible implication being that this kind of God cannot really love His creation made in His image).

First off, the God of the Bible (in the Bible) states that He does love His creation including of course mankind. Secondly, the God of the Bible states that the creation of man is not just good, but very good.

The question is, do you think that if a man or woman dies and ends up in hell, did he/she not really have a choice in the matter because God/Creator already knew that would happen?
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
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12/28/2013 9:39:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Installgentoo,
I believe this is what imanatheist is quoting.
"He's omniscient about events that occur in the present, and all the particular things that could potentially result from them. He doesn't know about things which haven't happened at all"
That is your quote. Here is imanatheists.
"Hence God is not all knowing. Thanks :)"
In conclusion I would say that your god is not omniscient, and the question doesn't apply to your god.
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
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12/28/2013 9:49:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
RoderickSpode,
"The question is, do you think that if a man or woman dies and ends up in hell, did he/she not really have a choice in the matter because God/Creator already knew that would happen?"
What I personally believe is not relevant to the question, however your question shows why this is a paradox.
srehtiw
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12/28/2013 4:29:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/28/2013 8:00:41 AM, iamanatheistandthisiswhy wrote:
At 12/27/2013 9:20:06 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/27/2013 8:55:46 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/27/2013 8:45:30 AM, superflymegastallion wrote:
Install,
"how God creating people who choose to reject him"
You are attempting to change the question, ,so I will repeat it.
Why would an omniscient, loving, merciful god create people knowing that they will, by their own free will, go to hell?

"He's omniscient about events that occur in the present".total omniscience, actually knowing everything that will occur"
In this question, it is total omniscience.

He allegedly knew before creation who would and who wouldn't go to hell, free will has nothing to do with it.

Oops.

Illogical.

Just because God knows does not mean He made it so. I cannot see how it follows that because God knew X would happen tomorrow, He therefore deliberately caused X to happen.

Others phrase the argument this way. "Because God knows X will happen tomorrow, X MUST happen. This also is illogical. It does not seem illogical at first glance because it is structured incorrectly. There is no real causal link between God knowing X will happen and X happening. The correct structure is, God knows X will happen tomorrow because X WILL happen.

So because God knows which men will reject Him and which men will accept Him, in no wise means those men didn't have free will. God simply knew who would and would not freely choose Him.

I have never been able to get anyone who believes this sleight-of-logic claim to show me the logical progression from God simply knowing and the things necessity BECAUSE of God knowing.

So God knows you will go to hell as a person will make a choice that they will go to hell. So God is all knowing?

But if god is all knowing then there are no choices. If there are no choices then it is predetermined. If it is predetermined, who is it predetermined by?

Hint: Its God.

2 things
1) The fact you know someone is going to do something does not mean they did not have a choice. I could give a starving man a piece of cake and the fact I knew he was going to take it does not mean he did not choose to take it.
2) The fact you knew something was going to happen does not mean you caused it. If I saw a man falling off the empire state building the fact I know he is going to hit the ground does not mean I made him hit the ground.
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
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12/28/2013 6:18:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
srehtiw,
2 things
1) The fact you know someone is going to do something does not mean they did not have a choice. I could give a starving man a piece of cake and the fact I knew he was going to take it does not mean he did not choose to take it.
2) The fact you knew something was going to happen does not mean you caused it. If I saw a man falling off the empire state building the fact I know he is going to hit the ground does not mean I made him hit the ground.

That's great srehtiw, but you didn't create the man knowing any of this would happen, you just happened into him. Why would you create a man to give him cake knowing that he would reject your cake, then send him to hell for rejecting you cake?
Your answer changes the question.