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God's permission of evil - Justice or not?

MadCornishBiker
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12/30/2013 5:07:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I believe it is part of perfect justice, justice not only done but seen to be done, and providing the perfect precedent to prevent recurrence at any time n the future.
bulproof
Posts: 25,303
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12/30/2013 5:21:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 5:07:53 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
I believe it is part of perfect justice, justice not only done but seen to be done, and providing the perfect precedent to prevent recurrence at any time n the future.

You mean god's commission of evil?
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
MadCornishBiker
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12/30/2013 11:34:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 5:21:01 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 12/30/2013 5:07:53 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
I believe it is part of perfect justice, justice not only done but seen to be done, and providing the perfect precedent to prevent recurrence at any time n the future.

You mean god's commission of evil?

No, because God didn't commission, design, create, or instigate evil.

As usual I mean what I say though you usually don't understand that.
MadCornishBiker
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12/30/2013 11:38:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.

Yes, but that is because the course of justice is still under way, it has not yet been fully accomplished.

By the way, who decides who is "good"? We certainly have neither the right nor the ability to. Jesus said that only one is good, his father, so that means that Bad things do not, ever happen to good people because whatever we think, dere ain't no such hanimal.

After all, if Jesus didn't even think he was good, what chance do we stand?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 11:47:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.

Exactly. We have to take it on faith that there is justice when this life is all over, because there is 0 evidence of any justice in the actual world, besides the justice set up by systems we created. If every time someone did something bad they got sick or something, and all the people who did good got better health and we could test this, then I would believe in some sort of divine justice. But no, how convenient, justice only comes after a person dies and they cannot verify it with the rest of us here on Earth lol
slo1
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12/30/2013 12:04:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 5:07:53 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
I believe it is part of perfect justice, justice not only done but seen to be done, and providing the perfect precedent to prevent recurrence at any time n the future.

Even though our conclusions are worlds apart, I like that you ask the tough questions.
popculturepooka
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12/30/2013 12:14:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 11:38:37 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.

Yes, but that is because the course of justice is still under way, it has not yet been fully accomplished.

By the way, who decides who is "good"? We certainly have neither the right nor the ability to. Jesus said that only one is good, his father, so that means that Bad things do not, ever happen to good people because whatever we think, dere ain't no such hanimal.

After all, if Jesus didn't even think he was good, what chance do we stand?

And if even if no one was good it is still abundantly obvious that there are those who are worse than others. If that is the case then your thesis still doesn't work because the distribution of evil doesn't correspond with the proportionality of justice.

Matt 5:45

that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/30/2013 12:20:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 11:34:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

No, because God didn't commission, design, create, or instigate evil.

I'm not sure I agree with that. God planned for Jesus to be crucified, right? But how could Jesus have been crucified without anybody sinning? So God must've planned for somebody to sin in oder to get Jesus on the cross.

In Acts 4:27-28, it says, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

So when Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel played whatever role they played in crucifying Jesus, they were fulfilling God's purpose. They were doing what God predestined to occur. Is it your belief that none of them were sinning?

I can give you lots of Biblical examples of God bringing about both natural and moral evil. Maybe you'll think I've misunderstood those passages, but I am highly skeptical of the claim that God has absolutely nothing to do with the evil that happens in the world.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
MadCornishBiker
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12/30/2013 12:26:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 11:47:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.

Exactly. We have to take it on faith that there is justice when this life is all over, because there is 0 evidence of any justice in the actual world, besides the justice set up by systems we created. If every time someone did something bad they got sick or something, and all the people who did good got better health and we could test this, then I would believe in some sort of divine justice. But no, how convenient, justice only comes after a person dies and they cannot verify it with the rest of us here on Earth lol

I have to admit that currently that is true, however the bible, which has proved a reliable book so far, describes the process of Justice we are nearing an end of, so there is hope. Strong hope for those of us who qualify, to be on the right side of it.

The only evidence that there is in this world is the evidence that everything happening around us appears to be following the path that scripture said it would be at this time.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 12:28:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:26:38 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:47:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.

Exactly. We have to take it on faith that there is justice when this life is all over, because there is 0 evidence of any justice in the actual world, besides the justice set up by systems we created. If every time someone did something bad they got sick or something, and all the people who did good got better health and we could test this, then I would believe in some sort of divine justice. But no, how convenient, justice only comes after a person dies and they cannot verify it with the rest of us here on Earth lol

I have to admit that currently that is true, however the bible, which has proved a reliable book so far, describes the process of Justice we are nearing an end of, so there is hope. Strong hope for those of us who qualify, to be on the right side of it.

The only evidence that there is in this world is the evidence that everything happening around us appears to be following the path that scripture said it would be at this time.

Oh The Bible says so, why didn't you just tell me that to begin with? Ok, now I believe....
philochristos
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12/30/2013 12:29:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 11:38:37 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

By the way, who decides who is "good"? We certainly have neither the right nor the ability to.

Then why do you think God is good?

Jesus said that only one is good, his father, so that means that Bad things do not, ever happen to good people because whatever we think, dere ain't no such hanimal.

Actually, Jesus said "No one is good but God alone." He didn't say "father."

After all, if Jesus didn't even think he was good, what chance do we stand?

Jesus was completely sinless. Of course he was good.

You seem to think Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 work out as an argument against Jesus' deity, but I think it's just the opposite. Jesus did not deny that he was good in this passage. What he said was that "No one is good but God alone." We know from many other passages in the New Testament that Jesus was morally perfect. He was absolutely good! Rather than denying his goodness, Jesus was trying to get the rich young ruler to take his own claim (that Jesus was good) to it's logical conclusion.

1. No one is good but God alone.
2. Jesus is good.
3. Therefore, Jesus is God.

Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 are not arguments against Jesus' deity; they are arguments for his deity.

You deny that bad things ever happen to good people since there are no good people. But I think what makes Jesus' sacrifice so remarkable is precisely that he was good and didn't deserve anything that happened to him. His act was entirely an act of love because he did it for his elect. He laid down his life for his own sheep. He did not lay down his life to pay for any sin that he himself committed since he was sinless. If Jesus was not good, then his sacrifice would not be as heroic and praiseworthy as it really was.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
MadCornishBiker
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12/30/2013 1:07:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:29:46 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:38:37 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

By the way, who decides who is "good"? We certainly have neither the right nor the ability to.

Then why do you think God is good?

Jesus said that only one is good, his father, so that means that Bad things do not, ever happen to good people because whatever we think, dere ain't no such hanimal.

Actually, Jesus said "No one is good but God alone." He didn't say "father."

Well that is true, but since there is no difference because his God was his Father also, what difference does that make? None.


After all, if Jesus didn't even think he was good, what chance do we stand?

Jesus was completely sinless. Of course he was good.

Apparently he didn't think so, which is my point.


You seem to think Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 work out as an argument against Jesus' deity, but I think it's just the opposite. Jesus did not deny that he was good in this passage. What he said was that "No one is good but God alone." We know from many other passages in the New Testament that Jesus was morally perfect. He was absolutely good! Rather than denying his goodness, Jesus was trying to get the rich young ruler to take his own claim (that Jesus was good) to it's logical conclusion.


That can hardly be true. There is a whole bible full of arguments that God and Christ were not the same. Scripture tells us ahtt Christ is one of many god's and lords, but nowhere except one mistranslated scripture is Christ actually described as God with a capital "G", so Christ could hardly be doing what you say.

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.""

The Apostles also recognised that Christ has a God.

1 Peter 1:3
3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth+ to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:3
3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

In fact they invariably spoke about God and Jesus separately, as did Jesus himself.

It cannot be avoided that there is not one inarguable scripture which support the idea that Christ is God, where was there are many that argue against that being true.

Many try to use John 10:30 I and the Father are one." to support the argument that God and Christ are literally one, but does it really mean that or are they simply one in purpose and intent?

Consider the following:

John 10:38
38 But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father."

John 17:11
11 "I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.

John 17:21
21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.

All of those scriptures talk of Christi's followers being one with each other in the same way that he is with his Father, so it cannot be a literal oneness, but simply a oneness of mind, one thought one purpose one intent.

So in fact John 10:30 does not support that thought at all.

1. No one is good but God alone.
2. Jesus is good.
3. Therefore, Jesus is God.

In whose opinion was Jesus good? Not his own apparently. And he absolutely certainly is not God by any stretch of ones scriptural imagination .

That is in effect an invalid argument because it makes an insupportable (scripturally) assumption.


Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 are not arguments against Jesus' deity; they are arguments for his deity.

They are in fact not arguments either way though they certainly do nothing to confirm what doesn't exist.


You deny that bad things ever happen to good people since there are no good people. But I think what makes Jesus' sacrifice so remarkable is precisely that he was good and didn't deserve anything that happened to him. His act was entirely an act of love because he did it for his elect. He laid down his life for his own sheep. He did not lay down his life to pay for any sin that he himself committed since he was sinless. If Jesus was not good, then his sacrifice would not be as heroic and praiseworthy as it really was.

Whether Jesus was good or not depends entirely on the standards you employ. The only thing we know is that he committed no sin, therefore as a sinless man is sacrifice was valid; we do not have the ability or wisdom to judge yeah or nay to whether or not he was good

As to God's son also being God, the killer scripture of all scriptures to that is John 1:18, which can only apply to the pre-human existence of God's son and makes him a created being.

However you try to twist it to cover Jesus birth there is a scripture, or a scriptural principle to prove that wrong.

Even the simple fact that they are Father and Son makes it necessary for them to be of two different generations, one younger than the other.

For centuries Priests and Vicars have tried to pass of the complete illogicality of the Trinity by saying "it's a mystery" whereas when you know your scripture well enough, the only mystery becomes how anyone can possibly have fallen for it. It does violence to reason no matter how you look at the scriptures and offends against the very tenor of scripture.
MadCornishBiker
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12/30/2013 1:11:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:28:12 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:26:38 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:47:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.

Exactly. We have to take it on faith that there is justice when this life is all over, because there is 0 evidence of any justice in the actual world, besides the justice set up by systems we created. If every time someone did something bad they got sick or something, and all the people who did good got better health and we could test this, then I would believe in some sort of divine justice. But no, how convenient, justice only comes after a person dies and they cannot verify it with the rest of us here on Earth lol

I have to admit that currently that is true, however the bible, which has proved a reliable book so far, describes the process of Justice we are nearing an end of, so there is hope. Strong hope for those of us who qualify, to be on the right side of it.

The only evidence that there is in this world is the evidence that everything happening around us appears to be following the path that scripture said it would be at this time.

Oh The Bible says so, why didn't you just tell me that to begin with? Ok, now I believe....

Sarcasm doesn't suit you, you aren't very good at it, lol.

However the fact that things are demonstrably working out along the lines that the bible foretold all those centuries ago, is a pretty good sign of it's reliability,, whether you wish to accept that or not.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 1:23:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:11:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:28:12 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:26:38 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:47:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.

Exactly. We have to take it on faith that there is justice when this life is all over, because there is 0 evidence of any justice in the actual world, besides the justice set up by systems we created. If every time someone did something bad they got sick or something, and all the people who did good got better health and we could test this, then I would believe in some sort of divine justice. But no, how convenient, justice only comes after a person dies and they cannot verify it with the rest of us here on Earth lol

I have to admit that currently that is true, however the bible, which has proved a reliable book so far, describes the process of Justice we are nearing an end of, so there is hope. Strong hope for those of us who qualify, to be on the right side of it.

The only evidence that there is in this world is the evidence that everything happening around us appears to be following the path that scripture said it would be at this time.

Oh The Bible says so, why didn't you just tell me that to begin with? Ok, now I believe....

Sarcasm doesn't suit you, you aren't very good at it, lol.

Debating doesn't suit you, you aren't very good at it lol Remember our last encounter?


However the fact that things are demonstrably working out along the lines that the bible foretold all those centuries ago, is a pretty good sign of it's reliability,, whether you wish to accept that or not.

Prove your statements.
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
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12/30/2013 1:30:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:11:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:28:12 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:26:38 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:47:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.

Exactly. We have to take it on faith that there is justice when this life is all over, because there is 0 evidence of any justice in the actual world, besides the justice set up by systems we created. If every time someone did something bad they got sick or something, and all the people who did good got better health and we could test this, then I would believe in some sort of divine justice. But no, how convenient, justice only comes after a person dies and they cannot verify it with the rest of us here on Earth lol

I have to admit that currently that is true, however the bible, which has proved a reliable book so far, describes the process of Justice we are nearing an end of, so there is hope. Strong hope for those of us who qualify, to be on the right side of it.

The only evidence that there is in this world is the evidence that everything happening around us appears to be following the path that scripture said it would be at this time.

Oh The Bible says so, why didn't you just tell me that to begin with? Ok, now I believe....

Sarcasm doesn't suit you, you aren't very good at it, lol.

However the fact that things are demonstrably working out along the lines that the bible foretold all those centuries ago, is a pretty good sign of it's reliability,, whether you wish to accept that or not.
I would ask that you be a bit more specific, than "things demonstrably are working out". What are these things. Please try not to be generic. I could easily forecast a war in the next 15 years, to show that "things are demonstrably..."
MadCornishBiker
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12/30/2013 1:30:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 12:20:13 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:34:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

No, because God didn't commission, design, create, or instigate evil.

I'm not sure I agree with that. God planned for Jesus to be crucified, right? But how could Jesus have been crucified without anybody sinning? So God must've planned for somebody to sin in oder to get Jesus on the cross.

Yes he planned for it, but not until after Evil raised it's head and that sacrifice became necessary.

He would not have planned something so cruel for his son unless he was forced to by a situation not of his making.

Would you do that to a son of yours? And yet God's love for his son, is more intense and more far seeing than our human love ever could be.


In Acts 4:27-28, it says, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

So when Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel played whatever role they played in crucifying Jesus, they were fulfilling God's purpose. They were doing what God predestined to occur. Is it your belief that none of them were sinning?

Where does it say at what point God pre-ordained (not predestined that is another thing entirely and God does not pre-destine anyone) that to happen? It doesn't so you are making an unwarranted assumption not supported, in fact denied, by scripture.


I can give you lots of Biblical examples of God bringing about both natural and moral evil. Maybe you'll think I've misunderstood those passages, but I am highly skeptical of the claim that God has absolutely nothing to do with the evil that happens in the world.

Actually you can't. You can try, but I can then show you why you are wrong either about God bringing it about, or about it actually being evil.

Yes of course I will claim that you have misunderstood those passages. I will also claim that your knowledge of scripture is insufficiently deep for you to stand a chance of understanding them properly.

Please bring one of those instances out and see where we go from there.

And don;lt forget that God predestines no-one, they always have a choice, though usually his choice is so good that he knows they will comply before he even asks them.

For instance Mary. She did not have to agree to being made pregnant before she was married, but God know only too well that he could offer that privilege to any of the Israelite girls and the vast majority would cheerfully have killed each other for the opportunity to carry the one who would become the Messiah.

Jesus did not have to become the Messiah even as he grew, but he was brought up with such a sense of the privilege he was being granted that he happily presented himself for baptism and took on the personality and memories of God's son.

That is, of course why Joseph and Mary were offered the opportunity. God was confident that they would do the job and do it well.

I am constantly amazed at exactly how much information is buried in the "deep things of God"- 1 Corinthians 2:10 "For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God" in scripture, and I will always be regretful that my childhood prayer was eventually answered, and God and Christ did, when they felt the time was right, send holy spirit to guide me. There is no way I could have got there on my own, or without their protection from Satan's interference.

As Paul says you simply cannot get there without God's spirit to guide you.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/30/2013 1:38:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:07:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:29:46 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:38:37 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

By the way, who decides who is "good"? We certainly have neither the right nor the ability to.

Then why do you think God is good?

Jesus said that only one is good, his father, so that means that Bad things do not, ever happen to good people because whatever we think, dere ain't no such hanimal.

Actually, Jesus said "No one is good but God alone." He didn't say "father."

Well that is true, but since there is no difference because his God was his Father also, what difference does that make? None.

I think it makes a difference because Jesus is making an argument for his own deity in this passage, and I explained. If Jesus had said "Father" instead of "God," then his argument would not have worked. He would've then been arguing that he is the Father, which of course is nonsense.

After all, if Jesus didn't even think he was good, what chance do we stand?

Jesus was completely sinless. Of course he was good.

Apparently he didn't think so, which is my point.

It isn't apparent to me that Jesus didn't think he was good. He certainly never denied his own goodness. He simply questioned why the rich young ruler would call him good since nobody is good but God alone. Jesus was trying to get the rich young ruler to grasp the implications of his own statement. If nobody is good but God alone, and if Jesus is good, as the rich young ruler said, it follows that Jesus is God.

As far as what Jesus thought, he challenged his opponents on multiple occasions to find any sin in him. The challenge only makes sense if Jesus knows good and well that he is sinless. So Jesus must have known that he was perfectly good.

But suppose Jesus was perfectly good but just didn't know it. How would that change anything? If it's still true that God alone is good, and if it's still true that Jesus is good, though he may not know it, it would still follow that Jesus is God. And it would still follow that something bad happened to a good person, namely the crucifixion.

That can hardly be true. There is a whole bible full of arguments that God and Christ were not the same. Scripture tells us ahtt Christ is one of many god's and lords, but nowhere except one mistranslated scripture is Christ actually described as God with a capital "G", so Christ could hardly be doing what you say.

I gave a solid deductive argument for the deity of Jesus from (1) the fact that Jesus is good, and (2) the fact that God alone is good. It follows inescapably that Jesus is God. There's no way around it. So I suspect you've just got a misunderstanding of all the passages you think refute the deity of Jesus. I would suggest we have a debate on that except that I already debated that topic with somebody recently and don't really feel like doing it again. But if you're interested, you can have a look-see at that debate:

http://www.debate.org...

John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.""

The Apostles also recognised that Christ has a God.

Of course. This is perfectly consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.

1 Peter 1:3
3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth+ to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Ephesians 1:3
3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

In fact they invariably spoke about God and Jesus separately, as did Jesus himself.

Yes. This is perfectly consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.

It cannot be avoided that there is not one inarguable scripture which support the idea that Christ is God, where was there are many that argue against that being true.

People can argue about anything, so it's a banal observation that there isn't one "inarguable" scripture supporting any position at all. The question is whether there are any scripture that show Jesus to be God, and there certainly are.

Many try to use John 10:30 I and the Father are one." to support the argument that God and Christ are literally one, but does it really mean that or are they simply one in purpose and intent?

I don't use that scripture to argue for the deity of Jesus.

1. No one is good but God alone.
2. Jesus is good.
3. Therefore, Jesus is God.

In whose opinion was Jesus good? Not his own apparently. And he absolutely certainly is not God by any stretch of ones scriptural imagination .

It's the opinion of the authors of the Bible that Jesus was good. Do you honestly deny that Jesus was good?

That is in effect an invalid argument because it makes an insupportable (scripturally) assumption.

Both premises are supported by Scripture. Jesus himself said that only God is good in Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19. 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, and 1 Peter 2:22 say that Jesus was without sin. Hebrews 7:26 even says that Jesus was "holy, innocent, and undefiled." Is it really your position that Jesus didn't know these things?

In John 8:46, Jesus challenges his critics, saying, "Which one of you convicts me of sin?" Does that sound like somebody who doubts his own sinlessness?

Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 are not arguments against Jesus' deity; they are arguments for his deity.

They are in fact not arguments either way though they certainly do nothing to confirm what doesn't exist.

Of course they are. I gave you a deductively solid argument based directly on scripture. Jesus' deity is inescapable.

Whether Jesus was good or not depends entirely on the standards you employ. The only thing we know is that he committed no sin, therefore as a sinless man is sacrifice was valid; we do not have the ability or wisdom to judge yeah or nay to whether or not he was good

So he never did anything wrong, and certainly did many things right, but you doubt his goodness?

As to God's son also being God, the killer scripture of all scriptures to that is John 1:18, which can only apply to the pre-human existence of God's son and makes him a created being.

It is impossible for Jesus to be a created being, but I won't go into that now just in case we might have a debate on it later.

Even the simple fact that they are Father and Son makes it necessary for them to be of two different generations, one younger than the other.

I don't take the designation as "father" and "son" in the same sense that humans have fathers and sons. Jesus wasn't the result of any procreation that happened between the Father and some woman, so no, I don't think Jesus being the son of the Father has any implications about whether one is older or younger.

For centuries Priests and Vicars have tried to pass of the complete illogicality of the Trinity by saying "it's a mystery" whereas when you know your scripture well enough, the only mystery becomes how anyone can possibly have fallen for it. It does violence to reason no matter how you look at the scriptures and offends against the very tenor of scripture.

Oh, I beg to differ. I once believed as you do, but was convinced of the truth of the doctrine of the Trinity by scripture and reason. You should checkout James White's book, The Forgotten Trinity.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 1:46:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:38:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:07:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:29:46 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:38:37 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:



But suppose Jesus was perfectly good but just didn't know it. How would that change anything? If it's still true that God alone is good, and if it's still true that Jesus is good, though he may not know it, it would still follow that Jesus is God.

Doesn't God know everything?
MadCornishBiker
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12/30/2013 1:58:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:30:31 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:11:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:28:12 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:26:38 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:47:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.

Exactly. We have to take it on faith that there is justice when this life is all over, because there is 0 evidence of any justice in the actual world, besides the justice set up by systems we created. If every time someone did something bad they got sick or something, and all the people who did good got better health and we could test this, then I would believe in some sort of divine justice. But no, how convenient, justice only comes after a person dies and they cannot verify it with the rest of us here on Earth lol

I have to admit that currently that is true, however the bible, which has proved a reliable book so far, describes the process of Justice we are nearing an end of, so there is hope. Strong hope for those of us who qualify, to be on the right side of it.

The only evidence that there is in this world is the evidence that everything happening around us appears to be following the path that scripture said it would be at this time.

Oh The Bible says so, why didn't you just tell me that to begin with? Ok, now I believe....

Sarcasm doesn't suit you, you aren't very good at it, lol.

However the fact that things are demonstrably working out along the lines that the bible foretold all those centuries ago, is a pretty good sign of it's reliability,, whether you wish to accept that or not.
I would ask that you be a bit more specific, than "things demonstrably are working out". What are these things. Please try not to be generic. I could easily forecast a war in the next 15 years, to show that "things are demonstrably..."

Yes, but could you forecast that there would be such an unnatural advance in man's abilities a couple of thousands of year in advance.

Look at it this way.

Scripture foretold that Christ would take up his Kingly power in 1914 and begin to set up the heavenly Kingdom. It also foretold that just prior to that Satan would be cast down to the vicinity of the earth, being very angry because now he knew he had lost and had not long left to carry out his destructive work.

Revelation 12:7-12
7 And war broke out in heaven: MiR42;cha"el*+ and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail,* nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon+ was hurled, the original serpent,+ the one called Devil+ and Satan,+ who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;+ he was hurled down to the earth,+ and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come to pass the salvation+ and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time."

Think about verse 12. "Woe to the earth"

Also think about Matthew 24, and the sings Jesus gave, only some of which were fulfilled back then.

Has this world really got better since the middle 19th Cebntury?

Wars have become more frequent and more destructive.

Sickness, Drought and famine have become more and more widespread, partly because of all the wars.

What's more we are now actually able to get up to date reports of these things, as Jesus suggested. Something else which has never been possible in history.

Also one of the promises in Revelation for times soon to come is that God will "bring to ruin those ruining the earth".

When did mankind start to "ruin the earth"?

Certainly not to any extent before the mid 19th century, and our destruction of our own habitat is increasing almost exponentially.

We are messing up the land, destroying animal habitats daily and ringing more and more species to extinction, no doubt some before we have even discovered them.

We are ruining the atmosphere, not just with pollution or greenhouse gases, but also by putting at risk the major sources of oxygen production on this earth, Plankton, as well as destroying our "water and air filters" in the rain forest.

We are doing that also partly by affecting the global weather patterns in so many ways, even down to the amount of concrete and tarmac we have laid causing unnatural thermals in the air.

Because of how we are disturbing the global weather systems we are causing "bigger and better" weather events. as well as disturbing the currents in the oceans.

Typhoons are getting more frequent and stronger for the same reason, as well as because the sea is getting warmer.

OK it's not much warmer, but if 1 degree Celsius can make the difference it has, what will 2 degrees do?

All these things were given us as signs nearly 2,000 years ago, not in detail, that would make it too easy to recognise, but definitely in general.

Science is more and more coming round to the side of scripture, hence more and more scientists are taking to the bible, and ion the fields which are revealing the inevitability if creation day by day, fields such as microbiology

http://wol.jw.org...

Even scientists involved in space research.

http://wol.jw.org...

and more.

http://wol.jw.org...

http://wol.jw.org...

http://wol.jw.org...

http://wol.jw.org...

Why have these scientists come down on the side of the bible?

Well read their stories on the end of those links, and see for yourself.
philochristos
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12/30/2013 2:00:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:30:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:20:13 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:34:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

No, because God didn't commission, design, create, or instigate evil.

I'm not sure I agree with that. God planned for Jesus to be crucified, right? But how could Jesus have been crucified without anybody sinning? So God must've planned for somebody to sin in oder to get Jesus on the cross.

Yes he planned for it, but not until after Evil raised it's head and that sacrifice became necessary.

He would not have planned something so cruel for his son unless he was forced to by a situation not of his making.

I believe in an absolutely sovereign God, not a God whose hand is forced by his own creatures. But why is any of this relevant to my point? You claimed that "God didn't commission, design, create, or instigate evil." I showed that he did. Your response is basically, "Yeah, but..." He either did or he didn't. I totally agree with you that God had a reason for designing, planning, and instigating evil, but that entails that God did in fact design, plan, and instigate evil, contrary to what you initially claimed. Just say, "I stand corrected."

In Acts 4:27-28, it says, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

So when Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel played whatever role they played in crucifying Jesus, they were fulfilling God's purpose. They were doing what God predestined to occur. Is it your belief that none of them were sinning?

Where does it say at what point God pre-ordained (not predestined that is another thing entirely and God does not pre-destine anyone) that to happen? It doesn't so you are making an unwarranted assumption not supported, in fact denied, by scripture.

It says that in Acts 4:27-28, as I just showed you. The passages doesn't hinge on the word "predestined." It says "God's hand" and "God's purpose," which means God had a purpose in Jesus being crucified, and God's hand was involved in making sure that it happened. If it was a sin for anybody to arrest, accuse, and crucify Jesus, then God had a hand in and a purpose in those people sinning.

But about predestination, you are badly mistaken. Maybe that's another thing we can debate some day.

I can give you lots of Biblical examples of God bringing about both natural and moral evil. Maybe you'll think I've misunderstood those passages, but I am highly skeptical of the claim that God has absolutely nothing to do with the evil that happens in the world.

Actually you can't.

Yes, I can.

You can try, but I can then show you why you are wrong either about God bringing it about, or about it actually being evil.

Sounds like another debate topic. :-)

Yes of course I will claim that you have misunderstood those passages. I will also claim that your knowledge of scripture is insufficiently deep for you to stand a chance of understanding them properly.

Them's fightin' words!

Please bring one of those instances out and see where we go from there.

I don't like to show my hand before a debate takes place. It takes the suspense out of the debate. But if you REALLY want to know, you could probably google may name along with "God" and "evil" and possibly find where I've brought those passages up on some other forum.

And don;lt forget that God predestines no-one, they always have a choice, though usually his choice is so good that he knows they will comply before he even asks them.

God predestines everybody.

That is, of course why Joseph and Mary were offered the opportunity. God was confident that they would do the job and do it well.

It sounds to me like you worship a God whose hands are tied by the free will of his own creatures. I worship a sovereign God who does whatever he pleases (Psalm 115:3, Psalm 135:6, Ecclesiastes 8:3). My God "does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"" You apparently think any creature with free will can ward off his hand and say, "No, you may not." According to Proverbs 21:1, "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes." But apparently, you think God has no control over the hearts of Mary and Joseph, to make them willing to do what God wants them to do. In your view, apparently, God can only use people who are already willing. Apparently, you think Mary was sovereign, not God.

I am constantly amazed at exactly how much information is buried in the "deep things of God"- 1 Corinthians 2:10 "For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God" in scripture, and I will always be regretful that my childhood prayer was eventually answered, and God and Christ did, when they felt the time was right, send holy spirit to guide me.

You're starting to sound like bornofgod, who always falls back on his personal experience when his understanding of scripture is challenged.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/30/2013 2:06:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:46:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:38:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:07:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:29:46 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:38:37 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:



But suppose Jesus was perfectly good but just didn't know it. How would that change anything? If it's still true that God alone is good, and if it's still true that Jesus is good, though he may not know it, it would still follow that Jesus is God.

Doesn't God know everything?

Yes, but according to the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus is not the only person who is God. The Father is also God. So it is accurate to say:

1. God knows everything.
2. Jesus is God.
3. Jesus does not know everything.

And this can be cashed on in another way, too. According to Philippians 2, Jesus existed in the form of God, but he humbled himself, and emptied himself when he became a man, and he submitted himself to the Father in the process. Theologians typically take this to mean that Jesus gave up the independent use of his divine attributes, including his omniscience.

An analogy might be forgetting. When you forget something, the information is still in your head somewhere, but you lack the ability to access that information. So there's a sense in which you know it, but there's another sense in which you do not know it.

So the claims in the Bible about Jesus' lack of knowledge (e.g. Mark 13:32) can be qualified. But in this case, I do not agree with MadCornishBiker's insinuation that Jesus didn't know he was good. I think Jesus DID know, which is evident in the fact that he challenged his critics to accuse him of sin.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
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12/30/2013 2:11:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:30:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:20:13 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:34:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

No, because God didn't commission, design, create, or instigate evil.

I'm not sure I agree with that. God planned for Jesus to be crucified, right? But how could Jesus have been crucified without anybody sinning? So God must've planned for somebody to sin in oder to get Jesus on the cross.

Yes he planned for it, but not until after Evil raised it's head and that sacrifice became necessary.
Here"s my question. When did evil raise it"s head?

He would not have planned something so cruel for his son unless he was forced to by a situation not of his making.
How could god be forced into anything if he is omniscient?

Would you do that to a son of yours? And yet God's love for his son, is more intense and more far seeing than our human love ever could be.


In Acts 4:27-28, it says, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

So when Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel played whatever role they played in crucifying Jesus, they were fulfilling God's purpose. They were doing what God predestined to occur. Is it your belief that none of them were sinning?

Where does it say at what point God pre-ordained (not predestined that is another thing entirely and God does not pre-destine anyone) that to happen? It doesn't so you are making an unwarranted assumption not supported, in fact denied, by scripture.
It says it here:
Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did PREDESTINATE.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
And here:
Eph.1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."



I can give you lots of Biblical examples of God bringing about both natural and moral evil. Maybe you'll think I've misunderstood those passages, but I am highly skeptical of the claim that God has absolutely nothing to do with the evil that happens in the world.

Actually you can't. You can try, but I can then show you why you are wrong either about God bringing it about, or about it actually being evil.

Yes of course I will claim that you have misunderstood those passages. I will also claim that your knowledge of scripture is insufficiently deep for you to stand a chance of understanding them properly.

Please bring one of those instances out and see where we go from there.

And don;lt forget that God predestines no-one, they always have a choice, though usually his choice is so good that he knows they will comply before he even asks them.

For instance Mary. She did not have to agree to being made pregnant before she was married, but God know only too well that he could offer that privilege to any of the Israelite girls and the vast majority would cheerfully have killed each other for the opportunity to carry the one who would become the Messiah.

Jesus did not have to become the Messiah even as he grew, but he was brought up with such a sense of the privilege he was being granted that he happily presented himself for baptism and took on the personality and memories of God's son.

That is, of course why Joseph and Mary were offered the opportunity. God was confident that they would do the job and do it well.

I am constantly amazed at exactly how much information is buried in the "deep things of God"- 1 Corinthians 2:10 "For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God" in scripture, and I will always be regretful that my childhood prayer was eventually answered, and God and Christ did, when they felt the time was right, send holy spirit to guide me. There is no way I could have got there on my own, or without their protection from Satan's interference.

As Paul says you simply cannot get there without God's spirit to guide you.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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12/30/2013 2:19:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 2:00:44 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:30:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:20:13 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:34:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

No, because God didn't commission, design, create, or instigate evil.

I'm not sure I agree with that. God planned for Jesus to be crucified, right? But how could Jesus have been crucified without anybody sinning? So God must've planned for somebody to sin in oder to get Jesus on the cross.

Yes he planned for it, but not until after Evil raised it's head and that sacrifice became necessary.

He would not have planned something so cruel for his son unless he was forced to by a situation not of his making.

I believe in an absolutely sovereign God, not a God whose hand is forced by his own creatures. But why is any of this relevant to my point? You claimed that "God didn't commission, design, create, or instigate evil." I showed that he did. Your response is basically, "Yeah, but..." He either did or he didn't. I totally agree with you that God had a reason for designing, planning, and instigating evil, but that entails that God did in fact design, plan, and instigate evil, contrary to what you initially claimed. Just say, "I stand corrected."

In Acts 4:27-28, it says, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

So when Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel played whatever role they played in crucifying Jesus, they were fulfilling God's purpose. They were doing what God predestined to occur. Is it your belief that none of them were sinning?

Where does it say at what point God pre-ordained (not predestined that is another thing entirely and God does not pre-destine anyone) that to happen? It doesn't so you are making an unwarranted assumption not supported, in fact denied, by scripture.

It says that in Acts 4:27-28, as I just showed you. The passages doesn't hinge on the word "predestined." It says "God's hand" and "God's purpose," which means God had a purpose in Jesus being crucified, and God's hand was involved in making sure that it happened. If it was a sin for anybody to arrest, accuse, and crucify Jesus, then God had a hand in and a purpose in those people sinning.

Yes but it doesn't say when he pre-ordained it. In fact if you knew your scripture you would know that it was pre-ordained in the Garden of Eden in reaction to Adam's unfaithfulness, which made it necessary.


But about predestination, you are badly mistaken. Maybe that's another thing we can debate some day.

No I am not at all mistaken. God doesn't need to predestine anyone, he chooses well. but yes maybe we can

Predestination and free will are completely incompatible because if you have the one you lose the other.


I can give you lots of Biblical examples of God bringing about both natural and moral evil. Maybe you'll think I've misunderstood those passages, but I am highly skeptical of the claim that God has absolutely nothing to do with the evil that happens in the world.

Actually you can't.

Yes, I can.

You can try, but I can then show you why you are wrong either about God bringing it about, or about it actually being evil.

Sounds like another debate topic. :-)

Yes why not. or even just discussion.


Yes of course I will claim that you have misunderstood those passages. I will also claim that your knowledge of scripture is insufficiently deep for you to stand a chance of understanding them properly.

Them's fightin' words!

But ones I can back up.


Please bring one of those instances out and see where we go from there.

I don't like to show my hand before a debate takes place. It takes the suspense out of the debate. But if you REALLY want to know, you could probably google may name along with "God" and "evil" and possibly find where I've brought those passages up on some other forum.

I don't like to cheat, though I don;lt doubt I could. I spend enough time doing research for people on here who are too lazy to do their own as it is. I get little time to do my own.


And don;lt forget that God predestines no-one, they always have a choice, though usually his choice is so good that he knows they will comply before he even asks them.

God predestines everybody.

Then you deny free will? If we are predestined, why bother trying?

Sorry but the doctrine of predestination is to me simply an abdication of personal responsibility, a display of moral cowardice.

We are responsible for out own choices, our own decisions, and God will hold us responsible for them just as he accepts responsibility for his.


That is, of course why Joseph and Mary were offered the opportunity. God was confident that they would do the job and do it well.

It sounds to me like you worship a God whose hands are tied by the free will of his own creatures. I worship a sovereign God who does whatever he pleases (Psalm 115:3, Psalm 135:6, Ecclesiastes 8:3). My God "does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"" You apparently think any creature with free will can ward off his hand and say, "No, you may not." According to Proverbs 21:1, "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes." But apparently, you think God has no control over the hearts of Mary and Joseph, to make them willing to do what God wants them to do. In your view, apparently, God can only use people who are already willing. Apparently, you think Mary was sovereign, not God.

God's hands are tied by nothing except his own high principles.

Yes God does as he pleases, but it pleases him to ensure justice for all, including Satan.

That does limit his options, but then anyone who isn't capable of limiting their own options has no morality at all.

The difference between your God and mine is that apparently your God "pleases" to cause suffering and harm, whereas mine works to combat it in every way that he can within the limits of his own morality.

He could easily have acted like a bully, but that would have proved nothing. This way there will be an eternal precedent set which on one, human or angel, will ever be able to argue with.

God created this earth to be a place of peace not of suffering, and he will get his way in his own due time. Not before, not after.

The truest and most difficult exercise of power is in self control.


I am constantly amazed at exactly how much information is buried in the "deep things of God"- 1 Corinthians 2:10 "For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God" in scripture, and I will always be regretful that my childhood prayer was eventually answered, and God and Christ did, when they felt the time was right, send holy spirit to guide me.

You're starting to sound like bornofgod, who always falls back on his personal experience when his understanding of scripture is challenged.

It's not a fall back state for me, I don't need one, I have scripture to support everything I teach.
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
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12/30/2013 2:22:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 1:58:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:30:31 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:11:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:28:12 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:26:38 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:47:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.

Exactly. We have to take it on faith that there is justice when this life is all over, because there is 0 evidence of any justice in the actual world, besides the justice set up by systems we created. If every time someone did something bad they got sick or something, and all the people who did good got better health and we could test this, then I would believe in some sort of divine justice. But no, how convenient, justice only comes after a person dies and they cannot verify it with the rest of us here on Earth lol

I have to admit that currently that is true, however the bible, which has proved a reliable book so far, describes the process of Justice we are nearing an end of, so there is hope. Strong hope for those of us who qualify, to be on the right side of it.

The only evidence that there is in this world is the evidence that everything happening around us appears to be following the path that scripture said it would be at this time.

Oh The Bible says so, why didn't you just tell me that to begin with? Ok, now I believe....

Sarcasm doesn't suit you, you aren't very good at it, lol.

However the fact that things are demonstrably working out along the lines that the bible foretold all those centuries ago, is a pretty good sign of it's reliability,, whether you wish to accept that or not.
I would ask that you be a bit more specific, than "things demonstrably are working out". What are these things. Please try not to be generic. I could easily forecast a war in the next 15 years, to show that "things are demonstrably..."

Yes, but could you forecast that there would be such an unnatural advance in man's abilities a couple of thousands of year in advance.

Look at it this way.

Scripture foretold that Christ would take up his Kingly power in 1914 and begin to set up the heavenly Kingdom. It also foretold that just prior to that Satan would be cast down to the vicinity of the earth, being very angry because now he knew he had lost and had not long left to carry out his destructive work.

Revelation 12:7-12
7 And war broke out in heaven: MiR42;cha"el*+ and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail,* nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon+ was hurled, the original serpent,+ the one called Devil+ and Satan,+ who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;+ he was hurled down to the earth,+ and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come to pass the salvation+ and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time."

Think about verse 12. "Woe to the earth"

Also think about Matthew 24, and the sings Jesus gave, only some of which were fulfilled back then.

Has this world really got better since the middle 19th Cebntury?

Wars have become more frequent and more destructive.

Sickness, Drought and famine have become more and more widespread, partly because of all the wars.

What's more we are now actually able to get up to date reports of these things, as Jesus suggested. Something else which has never been possible in history.

Also one of the promises in Revelation for times soon to come is that God will "bring to ruin those ruining the earth".

When did mankind start to "ruin the earth"?

Certainly not to any extent before the mid 19th century, and our destruction of our own habitat is increasing almost exponentially.

We are messing up the land, destroying animal habitats daily and ringing more and more species to extinction, no doubt some before we have even discovered them.

We are ruining the atmosphere, not just with pollution or greenhouse gases, but also by putting at risk the major sources of oxygen production on this earth, Plankton, as well as destroying our "water and air filters" in the rain forest.

We are doing that also partly by affecting the global weather patterns in so many ways, even down to the amount of concrete and tarmac we have laid causing unnatural thermals in the air.

Because of how we are disturbing the global weather systems we are causing "bigger and better" weather events. as well as disturbing the currents in the oceans.

Typhoons are getting more frequent and stronger for the same reason, as well as because the sea is getting warmer.

OK it's not much warmer, but if 1 degree Celsius can make the difference it has, what will 2 degrees do?

All these things were given us as signs nearly 2,000 years ago, not in detail, that would make it too easy to recognise, but definitely in general.

Science is more and more coming round to the side of scripture, hence more and more scientists are taking to the bible, and ion the fields which are revealing the inevitability if creation day by day, fields such as microbiology

http://wol.jw.org...

Even scientists involved in space research.

http://wol.jw.org...

and more.

http://wol.jw.org...

http://wol.jw.org...

http://wol.jw.org...

http://wol.jw.org...

Why have these scientists come down on the side of the bible?

Well read their stories on the end of those links, and see for yourself.
So with everything you wrote, your answer was indeed, "nope, nothing specific". As far as your scientists go, I won't bother reading the links. I'll just say OK. Some scientists siding with the bible doesn't add any credibility to what they are saying. Have they been peer reviewed yet? If their arguments are so convincing I would imagine that at least one of them must have the Nobel prize by now for their research.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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12/30/2013 2:26:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 2:22:17 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:58:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:30:31 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:11:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:28:12 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:26:38 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:47:04 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 7:43:12 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the the fact that "as it were" bad things happen to good people and bad people often "get away" with the worse crimes.

Exactly. We have to take it on faith that there is justice when this life is all over, because there is 0 evidence of any justice in the actual world, besides the justice set up by systems we created. If every time someone did something bad they got sick or something, and all the people who did good got better health and we could test this, then I would believe in some sort of divine justice. But no, how convenient, justice only comes after a person dies and they cannot verify it with the rest of us here on Earth lol

I have to admit that currently that is true, however the bible, which has proved a reliable book so far, describes the process of Justice we are nearing an end of, so there is hope. Strong hope for those of us who qualify, to be on the right side of it.

The only evidence that there is in this world is the evidence that everything happening around us appears to be following the path that scripture said it would be at this time.

Oh The Bible says so, why didn't you just tell me that to begin with? Ok, now I believe....

Sarcasm doesn't suit you, you aren't very good at it, lol.

However the fact that things are demonstrably working out along the lines that the bible foretold all those centuries ago, is a pretty good sign of it's reliability,, whether you wish to accept that or not.
I would ask that you be a bit more specific, than "things demonstrably are working out". What are these things. Please try not to be generic. I could easily forecast a war in the next 15 years, to show that "things are demonstrably..."

Yes, but could you forecast that there would be such an unnatural advance in man's abilities a couple of thousands of year in advance.

Look at it this way.

Scripture foretold that Christ would take up his Kingly power in 1914 and begin to set up the heavenly Kingdom. It also foretold that just prior to that Satan would be cast down to the vicinity of the earth, being very angry because now he knew he had lost and had not long left to carry out his destructive work.

Revelation 12:7-12
7 And war broke out in heaven: MiR42;cha"el*+ and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail,* nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon+ was hurled, the original serpent,+ the one called Devil+ and Satan,+ who is misleading the entire inhabited earth;+ he was hurled down to the earth,+ and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come to pass the salvation+ and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time."

Think about verse 12. "Woe to the earth"

Also think about Matthew 24, and the sings Jesus gave, only some of which were fulfilled back then.

Has this world really got better since the middle 19th Cebntury?

Wars have become more frequent and more destructive.

Sickness, Drought and famine have become more and more widespread, partly because of all the wars.

What's more we are now actually able to get up to date reports of these things, as Jesus suggested. Something else which has never been possible in history.

Also one of the promises in Revelation for times soon to come is that God will "bring to ruin those ruining the earth".

When did mankind start to "ruin the earth"?

Certainly not to any extent before the mid 19th century, and our destruction of our own habitat is increasing almost exponentially.

We are messing up the land, destroying animal habitats daily and ringing more and more species to extinction, no doubt some before we have even discovered them.

We are ruining the atmosphere, not just with pollution or greenhouse gases, but also by putting at risk the major sources of oxygen production on this earth, Plankton, as well as destroying our "water and air filters" in the rain forest.

We are doing that also partly by affecting the global weather patterns in so many ways, even down to the amount of concrete and tarmac we have laid causing unnatural thermals in the air.

Because of how we are disturbing the global weather systems we are causing "bigger and better" weather events. as well as disturbing the currents in the oceans.

Typhoons are getting more frequent and stronger for the same reason, as well as because the sea is getting warmer.

OK it's not much warmer, but if 1 degree Celsius can make the difference it has, what will 2 degrees do?

All these things were given us as signs nearly 2,000 years ago, not in detail, that would make it too easy to recognise, but definitely in general.

Science is more and more coming round to the side of scripture, hence more and more scientists are taking to the bible, and ion the fields which are revealing the inevitability if creation day by day, fields such as microbiology

http://wol.jw.org...

Even scientists involved in space research.

http://wol.jw.org...

and more.

http://wol.jw.org...

http://wol.jw.org...

http://wol.jw.org...

http://wol.jw.org...

Why have these scientists come down on the side of the bible?

Well read their stories on the end of those links, and see for yourself.
So with everything you wrote, your answer was indeed, "nope, nothing specific". As far as your scientists go, I won't bother reading the links. I'll just say OK. Some scientists siding with the bible doesn't add any credibility to what they are saying. Have they been peer reviewed yet? If their arguments are so convincing I would imagine that at least one of them must have the Nobel prize by now for their research.

They've been published so I guess so.

In other words you are only interested in what agrees with you.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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12/30/2013 2:26:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 2:06:20 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:46:40 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:38:51 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:07:04 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:29:46 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:38:37 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:



But suppose Jesus was perfectly good but just didn't know it. How would that change anything? If it's still true that God alone is good, and if it's still true that Jesus is good, though he may not know it, it would still follow that Jesus is God.

Doesn't God know everything?

Yes, but according to the doctrine of the Trinity, Jesus is not the only person who is God. The Father is also God. So it is accurate to say:

1. God knows everything.
2. Jesus is God.
3. Jesus does not know everything.

This seems like an incoherent. Due to the Indiscernibility of identicals, if A is B, then what is true for A, is also true for B. Thus, if Jesus is God, and God knows everything, it follows that Jesus must know everything as well.

What you mean you say is that Jesus is a part of God, so is the father, and so is the son. These three parts make up the whole; God. You cannot say either one is God though. Jesus isn't God anymore than a button is my VCR. These are just parts of the whole.


And this can be cashed on in another way, too. According to Philippians 2, Jesus existed in the form of God, but he humbled himself, and emptied himself when he became a man, and he submitted himself to the Father in the process. Theologians typically take this to mean that Jesus gave up the independent use of his divine attributes, including his omniscience.

This makes sense.


An analogy might be forgetting. When you forget something, the information is still in your head somewhere, but you lack the ability to access that information. So there's a sense in which you know it, but there's another sense in which you do not know it. .

Fair enough.


So the claims in the Bible about Jesus' lack of knowledge (e.g. Mark 13:32) can be qualified. But in this case, I do not agree with MadCornishBiker's insinuation that Jesus didn't know he was good. I think Jesus DID know, which is evident in the fact that he challenged his critics to accuse him of sin.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 23,302
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12/30/2013 2:41:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/30/2013 2:11:28 PM, superflymegastallion wrote:
At 12/30/2013 1:30:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 12/30/2013 12:20:13 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/30/2013 11:34:04 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

No, because God didn't commission, design, create, or instigate evil.

I'm not sure I agree with that. God planned for Jesus to be crucified, right? But how could Jesus have been crucified without anybody sinning? So God must've planned for somebody to sin in oder to get Jesus on the cross.

Yes he planned for it, but not until after Evil raised it's head and that sacrifice became necessary.
Here"s my question. When did evil raise it"s head?

He would not have planned something so cruel for his son unless he was forced to by a situation not of his making.
How could god be forced into anything if he is omniscient?

Would you do that to a son of yours? And yet God's love for his son, is more intense and more far seeing than our human love ever could be.


In Acts 4:27-28, it says, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur."

So when Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel played whatever role they played in crucifying Jesus, they were fulfilling God's purpose. They were doing what God predestined to occur. Is it your belief that none of them were sinning?

Where does it say at what point God pre-ordained (not predestined that is another thing entirely and God does not pre-destine anyone) that to happen? It doesn't so you are making an unwarranted assumption not supported, in fact denied, by scripture.

It says it here:
Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did PREDESTINATE.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
And here:
Eph.1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

OK but I question the accuracy of the word Predestination because it does not fit in with what scripture reveals as God's personality or his way of working. Was the translator maybe a little biased towards the idea of predestination?

However let's look a little more closely at those scriptures.

Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did PREDESTINATE.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Again that does not state at which point he "foreknew" them, and really that only backs up what I said. God chooses well, and chooses ones he knows won't refuse.

After all, as scripture tells us God knows the heart, the inclinations of our very being.

Eph.1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

When was the "foundation of the world" and note it does say world not earth?

The answer was simple and backs up exactly what I said earlier. This world was founded the moment Adam rebelled and did not turn to God for a solution to the problem of Eve's capitulation.

On that subject, he really should have stopped and thought that for God's purpose to be achieved Adam had to have a wife, if not Eve then God could provide another.

Abraham didn't make that mistake. When God asked him to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham knew that God's purposes relied on Isaac living, and so, though he didn't know how God would achieve that, he knew it would work out that way, and of course, it did.

That was why Abraham was willing to go along with it, even if he had to sacrifice Isaac and then let God resurrect him, as Paul explains.

Hebrews 11:17-19
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac"the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son" 18 although it had been said to him: "What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac." 19 But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way.

That is a large part of faith, Knowing that what God promises he will deliver, what he intends will happen, even if he has to go the roundabout way to achieve it and fit it in with his moral compass.

To return to an earlier point, we do not disagree that God will do as he pleases, only about how he will achieve it.