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Dear Atheists

Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

I know a lot of you want proof God exists, but I think this is asking too much considering we're talking about an entity with natural properties existing, so we're dealing with something that can be studied by natural science, and science can't prove anything exists with absolute certainty in the form of a proof, because of the problem of induction en.wikipedia.org/wiki/problem_of_induction.
RhysJaxson
Posts: 79
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1/5/2014 3:19:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

I know a lot of you want proof God exists, but I think this is asking too much considering we're talking about an entity with natural properties existing, so we're dealing with something that can be studied by natural science, and science can't prove anything exists with absolute certainty in the form of a proof, because of the problem of induction en.wikipedia.org/wiki/problem_of_induction.

Objective evidence, that's all. Logical arguments are generally useless, they assume too much. They used to be based off the universe being eternal, then science taught us that wasn't right. Then they were based off of the universe needing a cause, but science has taught us otherwise. Logical arguments can't prove their own premises.

Logical consistency would be one requirement though. The biblical god is contradictory in nature and action, so that's not going to end up being true.
We are better than religion. We are better than gods.
Zogen
Posts: 20
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1/5/2014 3:38:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

The only argument I might accept is a rational and logical one relying on solid, expansive, and objective evidence.
Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand (Karl Marx).
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/5/2014 3:43:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 3:38:43 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

The only argument I might accept is a rational and logical one relying on solid, expansive, and objective evidence.

Since our true existence in the mind of our Creator is vibrations called wavelengths of energy, it is almost impossible to provide proof that we exist, let alone proof that we're in the mind of a Creator.

Not even scientists understand that what we see are only illusions in the mind of our Creator.

Ask a scientist for proof that we exist in the mind of our Creator as dreams and he'll give you a lie just like religious people do to explain what they don't know.
Zogen
Posts: 20
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1/5/2014 4:04:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 3:43:49 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:38:43 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

The only argument I might accept is a rational and logical one relying on solid, expansive, and objective evidence.

Since our true existence in the mind of our Creator is vibrations called wavelengths of energy, it is almost impossible to provide proof that we exist, let alone proof that we're in the mind of a Creator.

Not even scientists understand that what we see are only illusions in the mind of our Creator.

Ask a scientist for proof that we exist in the mind of our Creator as dreams and he'll give you a lie just like religious people do to explain what they don't know.

Don't do drugs bro.

Seriously, I specifically asked for a rational and logical argument. Your blathering is as far from those two concepts as physically possible.
Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand (Karl Marx).
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/5/2014 4:06:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 4:04:46 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:43:49 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:38:43 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

The only argument I might accept is a rational and logical one relying on solid, expansive, and objective evidence.

Since our true existence in the mind of our Creator is vibrations called wavelengths of energy, it is almost impossible to provide proof that we exist, let alone proof that we're in the mind of a Creator.

Not even scientists understand that what we see are only illusions in the mind of our Creator.

Ask a scientist for proof that we exist in the mind of our Creator as dreams and he'll give you a lie just like religious people do to explain what they don't know.

Don't do drugs bro.

Seriously, I specifically asked for a rational and logical argument. Your blathering is as far from those two concepts as physically possible.

There's no such thing as physical attributes such as mass, space or time. We're only God's dreams put in a way that we believe we're real.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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1/5/2014 4:10:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 3:38:43 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

The only argument I might accept is a rational and logical one relying on solid, expansive, and objective evidence.

So you mean something like

P1. everything that begins to exist, has a cause- based on the scientific principle of cause-and-effect

P2. the universe began to exist- based on the second law of thermodynamics

C. therefore, the universe has a cause, which is outside it and therefore an abstract entity with immense power- all properties of God
Zogen
Posts: 20
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1/5/2014 4:18:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 4:10:02 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:38:43 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

The only argument I might accept is a rational and logical one relying on solid, expansive, and objective evidence.

So you mean something like

P1. everything that begins to exist, has a cause- based on the scientific principle of cause-and-effect

P2. the universe began to exist- based on the second law of thermodynamics

C. therefore, the universe has a cause, which is outside it and therefore an abstract entity with immense power- all properties of God

Causality is an philosophical opinion, a scientific assumption. No science definitively asserts that the universe itself must have a cause. Even if a cause were necessary, there is no reason to assume an abstract entity with the subjective attribute of immense power. A stable, expanding, zero net-energy quantum fluctuation is an equally probable and satisfactory solution. More satisfactory, even, due to it being based on a known phenomena rather than a fundamentally incomprehensible all powerful being.
Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand (Karl Marx).
Zogen
Posts: 20
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1/5/2014 4:21:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 4:06:10 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:04:46 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:43:49 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:38:43 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

The only argument I might accept is a rational and logical one relying on solid, expansive, and objective evidence.

Since our true existence in the mind of our Creator is vibrations called wavelengths of energy, it is almost impossible to provide proof that we exist, let alone proof that we're in the mind of a Creator.

Not even scientists understand that what we see are only illusions in the mind of our Creator.

Ask a scientist for proof that we exist in the mind of our Creator as dreams and he'll give you a lie just like religious people do to explain what they don't know.

Don't do drugs bro.

Seriously, I specifically asked for a rational and logical argument. Your blathering is as far from those two concepts as physically possible.

There's no such thing as physical attributes such as mass, space or time. We're only God's dreams put in a way that we believe we're real.

You would get on well with Jaden Smith I'd imagine. That's an extraordinary claim mate. Extraordinary evidence?
Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand (Karl Marx).
QandA
Posts: 21
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1/5/2014 4:47:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Atheists argue using facts. Believers argue using faith. Fact would have to be matched with fact which is impossible for believers to do when it comes to god.
QandA
RhysJaxson
Posts: 79
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1/5/2014 4:56:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 4:10:02 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
So you mean something like

P1. everything that begins to exist, has a cause- based on the scientific principle of cause-and-effect

P2. the universe began to exist- based on the second law of thermodynamics

C. therefore, the universe has a cause, which is outside it and therefore an abstract entity with immense power- all properties of God

Prove P1

Can you even name something that began to exist in the same sense as the universe?
We are better than religion. We are better than gods.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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1/5/2014 5:12:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

I know a lot of you want proof God exists, but I think this is asking too much considering we're talking about an entity with natural properties existing, so we're dealing with something that can be studied by natural science, and science can't prove anything exists with absolute certainty in the form of a proof, because of the problem of induction en.wikipedia.org/wiki/problem_of_induction.

This is really just semantic equivocation. I don't want to start a flame war, but considering that you never stick around in the trolling threads you create, I think it's unlikely you'll read this.

I think most Atheists would agree that God turning up in front of us and saying hi would be pretty compelling evidence.

The issue is people don't chose to "believe". They either believe, or don't.

Genuinely speaking, what Atheists require to beleive in God, if he exists, is God deciding to flip the switch in their head that religious people have turned on that makes them believe.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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1/5/2014 5:38:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 4:56:42 PM, RhysJaxson wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:10:02 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
So you mean something like

P1. everything that begins to exist, has a cause- based on the scientific principle of cause-and-effect

P2. the universe began to exist- based on the second law of thermodynamics

C. therefore, the universe has a cause, which is outside it and therefore an abstract entity with immense power- all properties of God

Prove P1

Can you even name something that began to exist in the same sense as the universe?

Sure, virtual particles.
RhysJaxson
Posts: 79
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1/5/2014 5:46:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 5:38:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:56:42 PM, RhysJaxson wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:10:02 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
So you mean something like

P1. everything that begins to exist, has a cause- based on the scientific principle of cause-and-effect

P2. the universe began to exist- based on the second law of thermodynamics

C. therefore, the universe has a cause, which is outside it and therefore an abstract entity with immense power- all properties of God

Prove P1

Can you even name something that began to exist in the same sense as the universe?

Sure, virtual particles.

And what causes them?
We are better than religion. We are better than gods.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/5/2014 5:48:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

I know a lot of you want proof God exists, but I think this is asking too much considering we're talking about an entity with natural properties existing, so we're dealing with something that can be studied by natural science, and science can't prove anything exists with absolute certainty in the form of a proof, because of the problem of induction en.wikipedia.org/wiki/problem_of_induction.

I see this as moving the goal posts. When people talk about "God" they usually have something a bit more specific in mind.

Then you turn around and talk about a "higher power". Higher power I see as being much more vague thus many possibilities fall under what would count as a "higher power"

So if some one is going to talk about a very specific God, then that is going to require more justification that trying to justify the more vague "higher power"
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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1/5/2014 6:19:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
And lo I come across another thread generalising an entire belief concept based upon a few comments. Perhaps not generalising anyone based upon what they believe would make things slightly better, for generalising anyone over belief is most ignorant.
Turn around, go back.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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1/5/2014 6:20:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 5:46:24 PM, RhysJaxson wrote:
At 1/5/2014 5:38:28 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:56:42 PM, RhysJaxson wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:10:02 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
So you mean something like

P1. everything that begins to exist, has a cause- based on the scientific principle of cause-and-effect

P2. the universe began to exist- based on the second law of thermodynamics

C. therefore, the universe has a cause, which is outside it and therefore an abstract entity with immense power- all properties of God

Prove P1

Can you even name something that began to exist in the same sense as the universe?

Sure, virtual particles.

And what causes them?

Energy.
Mysterious_Stranger
Posts: 1,562
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1/5/2014 6:22:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Though the only thing that would cause me to believe in a deity would be for it to contact me directly, if I did not have one hundred percent proof and certainty that I had been contacted then I would continue to go about my godless sinful existence.
Turn around, go back.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/5/2014 6:22:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 5:12:28 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

I know a lot of you want proof God exists, but I think this is asking too much considering we're talking about an entity with natural properties existing, so we're dealing with something that can be studied by natural science, and science can't prove anything exists with absolute certainty in the form of a proof, because of the problem of induction en.wikipedia.org/wiki/problem_of_induction.

This is really just semantic equivocation. I don't want to start a flame war, but considering that you never stick around in the trolling threads you create, I think it's unlikely you'll read this.

I think most Atheists would agree that God turning up in front of us and saying hi would be pretty compelling evidence.

The issue is people don't chose to "believe". They either believe, or don't.

Genuinely speaking, what Atheists require to beleive in God, if he exists, is God deciding to flip the switch in their head that religious people have turned on that makes them believe.

This happened to me pretty much, I'm just more grounded in rationality than your average atheist I guess.
RhysJaxson
Posts: 79
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1/5/2014 6:23:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 6:20:16 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
Energy.

What kind of energy, can you be more specific about that and about how it happens?
We are better than religion. We are better than gods.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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1/5/2014 6:31:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

Probably if someone could prove dualistic interactionism is false. If so, that then would convince me a God exists.


I know a lot of you want proof God exists, but I think this is asking too much considering we're talking about an entity with natural properties existing, so we're dealing with something that can be studied by natural science, and science can't prove anything exists with absolute certainty in the form of a proof, because of the problem of induction en.wikipedia.org/wiki/problem_of_induction.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/5/2014 6:32:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 4:35:08 PM, unitedandy wrote:
I'll make it really simple. All I'd need is a better argument than the problem of evil.

The PoE is easily refuted and I have done so for you before. Is it that you like being evil?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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1/5/2014 6:35:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 4:35:08 PM, unitedandy wrote:
I'll make it really simple. All I'd need is a better argument than the problem of evil.

The problem with a God who can allow evil to exist at all he has to have this modal property:

1."The property of possibly being the necessary condition for evil"

He must also necessary lack this property:

2."The property of necessarily being the necessary condition for only good"

A perfectly good God having 1 over 2 is absurd.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/5/2014 7:10:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 6:35:58 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:35:08 PM, unitedandy wrote:
I'll make it really simple. All I'd need is a better argument than the problem of evil.

The problem with a God who can allow evil to exist at all he has to have this modal property:

1."The property of possibly being the necessary condition for evil"

He must also necessary lack this property:

2."The property of necessarily being the necessary condition for only good"


A perfectly good God having 1 over 2 is absurd.

There is the potential for a perfectly good god amongst evil, the becoming of that god tended to in part by you and every other who would otherwise be evil. Take a little responsibility.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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1/5/2014 7:16:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Man plays god all the time, but will separate himself from him in an instant for the sake of argument.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/6/2014 7:53:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/5/2014 4:21:21 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:06:10 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:04:46 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:43:49 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:38:43 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

The only argument I might accept is a rational and logical one relying on solid, expansive, and objective evidence.

Since our true existence in the mind of our Creator is vibrations called wavelengths of energy, it is almost impossible to provide proof that we exist, let alone proof that we're in the mind of a Creator.

Not even scientists understand that what we see are only illusions in the mind of our Creator.

Ask a scientist for proof that we exist in the mind of our Creator as dreams and he'll give you a lie just like religious people do to explain what they don't know.

Don't do drugs bro.

Seriously, I specifically asked for a rational and logical argument. Your blathering is as far from those two concepts as physically possible.

There's no such thing as physical attributes such as mass, space or time. We're only God's dreams put in a way that we believe we're real.

You would get on well with Jaden Smith I'd imagine. That's an extraordinary claim mate. Extraordinary evidence?

Do you have dreams while you're sleeping?

If you do, do you have evidence for me to know what your dreams were about?
Zogen
Posts: 20
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1/6/2014 11:57:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/6/2014 7:53:19 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:21:21 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:06:10 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:04:46 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:43:49 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:38:43 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

The only argument I might accept is a rational and logical one relying on solid, expansive, and objective evidence.

Since our true existence in the mind of our Creator is vibrations called wavelengths of energy, it is almost impossible to provide proof that we exist, let alone proof that we're in the mind of a Creator.

Not even scientists understand that what we see are only illusions in the mind of our Creator.

Ask a scientist for proof that we exist in the mind of our Creator as dreams and he'll give you a lie just like religious people do to explain what they don't know.

Don't do drugs bro.

Seriously, I specifically asked for a rational and logical argument. Your blathering is as far from those two concepts as physically possible.

There's no such thing as physical attributes such as mass, space or time. We're only God's dreams put in a way that we believe we're real.

You would get on well with Jaden Smith I'd imagine. That's an extraordinary claim mate. Extraordinary evidence?

Do you have dreams while you're sleeping?

If you do, do you have evidence for me to know what your dreams were about?

I'll try to work with your horrible rhetoric. Yes, everybody has dreams. I really struggle to understand the second question. Technology has yet to progress far enough to interpret brain waves well enough to give a full description of my dreams, but wait a few years, and I'll be happy to reconstruct my dreams for you, for whatever reason you require that.
Religion is the impotence of the human mind to deal with occurrences it cannot understand (Karl Marx).
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/7/2014 9:40:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/6/2014 11:57:08 AM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/6/2014 7:53:19 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:21:21 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:06:10 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 4:04:46 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:43:49 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:38:43 PM, Zogen wrote:
At 1/5/2014 3:13:56 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't want to start a flame-war, so if you wanna make offensive comments, just go elsewhere.

With that in mind, I would like to ask you what kind of evidence or arguments would be sufficient to convince you that a higher power exists.

The only argument I might accept is a rational and logical one relying on solid, expansive, and objective evidence.

Since our true existence in the mind of our Creator is vibrations called wavelengths of energy, it is almost impossible to provide proof that we exist, let alone proof that we're in the mind of a Creator.

Not even scientists understand that what we see are only illusions in the mind of our Creator.

Ask a scientist for proof that we exist in the mind of our Creator as dreams and he'll give you a lie just like religious people do to explain what they don't know.

Don't do drugs bro.

Seriously, I specifically asked for a rational and logical argument. Your blathering is as far from those two concepts as physically possible.

There's no such thing as physical attributes such as mass, space or time. We're only God's dreams put in a way that we believe we're real.

You would get on well with Jaden Smith I'd imagine. That's an extraordinary claim mate. Extraordinary evidence?

Do you have dreams while you're sleeping?

If you do, do you have evidence for me to know what your dreams were about?

I'll try to work with your horrible rhetoric. Yes, everybody has dreams. I really struggle to understand the second question. Technology has yet to progress far enough to interpret brain waves well enough to give a full description of my dreams, but wait a few years, and I'll be happy to reconstruct my dreams for you, for whatever reason you require that.

You will never be able to come up with evidence that prove you have dreams. I can only believe that you have dreams by what you tell me.

I speak for our invisible Creator who has given me knowledge that everything we experience are only dreams that He dreamed up for us. You can only believe this because you don't have the knowledge that I possess to understand how and where dreams come from.