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Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/13/2010 3:42:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
A few questions (well really they boil down to the same question) to those who profess religious faith.

Why do you follow the religion that you do?
How do you know your religion is the one true faith?
How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?
What test, example, logic or whatever can be employed to show that your religion is true?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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1/13/2010 5:06:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 3:42:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
A few questions (well really they boil down to the same question) to those who profess religious faith.

Why do you follow the religion that you do?
How do you know your religion is the one true faith?
How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?
What test, example, logic or whatever can be employed to show that your religion is true?

I have to answer retrospectively as, although I was brought up as Church of England (C of E) as a child, I am now a confirmed Heathen.

Why do you follow the religion that you do?

Because my mum and dad and everybody I knew was C of E and I went to a C of E school.

How do you know your religion is the one true faith?

Because the vicar and the teachers said that it was the only true religion and to worship false idols was a sin and since they were adults and I was only a small child I believed them.

How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?

Anyone not born in England is either a barbarian or a savage and is therefore incapable of understanding that the C of E is the one and only true faith.

What test, example, logic or whatever can be employed to show that your religion is true?

There is only one God and He is C of E. The proof of this is that he made England the most beautiful and bountiful country on Earth and blessed it with the most intelligent, productive, innovative and kindest people that He had ever created. Then He gave us the best cars, planes, trains, ships and beer just to prove to old Johnny Foreigner how superior the English race really is.
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
banker
Posts: 1,370
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1/13/2010 6:32:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Becuase its truth and its natural and its unable to work otherwise..!
Ethiests are going to tell you they could function without faith,but try to prove them how global warming is a hoax they would defand their global warming religion just like any other believer...!
Conclusion no one could exist without a faith..! Once you drop one you will adopt a other..!
Ethiest argue that you don't need authority to bring order in the world..! Your concious will make sure you do things right..! What a joke . When a athiest opens a small store he writes a buisiness plan,just like a bible and followes it otherwise it can not succeed..! Let alone a town or city..! Its not possible to work without a plan or line of authority...!

So my answer is its natural and its true,it can not work otherwise..!
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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1/13/2010 7:19:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 6:32:47 AM, banker wrote:
Becuase its truth and its natural and its unable to work otherwise..!
Translation:
Because i say so!

My answer:
Fail. No justification. No reason. Just "Its the truth, thats how it is. The end".
Ethiests are going to tell you they could function without faith,but try to prove them how global warming is a hoax they would defand their global warming religion just like any other believer...!
Translation:
Atheists claim to have no faith, but when you poke fun of whatever they believe, they defend it with reason, logic and evidence!

My answer:
Not all atheists believe in Global warming. But thanks for trying.
Conclusion no one could exist without a faith..! Once you drop one you will adopt a other..!
Translation:
No one can exist without faith, because if you drop one belief based on faith, you must necessarily accept another belief based on faith!

My answer:
Fail. Ive dropped all beliefs based on faith. Its a non-sequitor.
Ethiest argue that you don't need authority to bring order in the world..! Your concious will make sure you do things right..! What a joke . When a athiest opens a small store he writes a buisiness plan,just like a bible and followes it otherwise it can not succeed..! Let alone a town or city..! Its not possible to work without a plan or line of authority...!
Translation:
Atheists say that no authority is required, yet they rely on authority all the time!

My answer:
Yeah, thats why Atheists are trying to topple governments. Thats why Atheists are trying to remove the justice system from our society. Yeah right. Fail.

So my answer is its natural and its true,it can not work otherwise..!
Translation:
So my answer is the same. Its true because its true, its true because i say so, no justification needed, the end!

My answer:
Fail.
banker
Posts: 1,370
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1/13/2010 7:48:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 7:19:17 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/13/2010 6:32:47 AM, banker wrote:
Becuase its truth and its natural and its unable to work otherwise..!
Translation:
Because i say so!
read carefuly the rational at the end

My answer:
Fail. No justification. No reason. Just "Its the truth, thats how it is. The end".
again dont jump in midle of a post before you read the rational..!!

Ethiests are going to tell you they could function without faith,but try to prove them how global warming is a hoax they would defand their global warming religion just like any other believer...!
Translation:
Atheists claim to have no faith, but when you poke fun of whatever they believe
the do believe, or they dont? why is my questions poking fun,and yours is just legitimate questions in middle of a post?

, they defend it with reason, logic and evidence! oh they do? i cant wait to see logical answeres ...!! on how we have global warming..! i asume the arctic is where the girls with bikinies are today..!!

My answer:
Not all atheists believe in Global warming. But thanks for trying.
not taking responsability,is a real ethiest thing..!! so you claim thet people with faith are the ones who believe god needs libs to help him save the world...!!
now trowing the bug on someone else is a amoral thing that do pass your concious?

Conclusion no one could exist without a faith..! Once you drop one you will adopt a other..!
Translation:
No one can exist without faith, because if you drop one belief based on faith, you must necessarily accept another belief based on faith!

My answer:
Fail. Ive dropped all beliefs based on faith. Its a non-sequitor.

let me see you admit your a global warming freek...!

Ethiest argue that you don't need authority to bring order in the world..! Your concious will make sure you do things right..! What a joke . When a athiest opens a small store he writes a buisiness plan,just like a bible and followes it otherwise it can not succeed..! Let alone a town or city..! Its not possible to work without a plan or line of authority...!
Translation:
Atheists say that no authority is required, yet they rely on authority all the time!

My answer:
Yeah, thats why Atheists are trying to topple governments. Thats why Atheists are trying to remove the justice system from our society. Yeah right. Fail.

no they are not trying to topple governments, quite the conterary,they need government. since its impossible and unnatrual to have order with out authority..!! just like a world without a god is unnatral,and cant exist...!! you ethiests dont live niether can you live by the false theory of ethiesem...! thats why you have authority and order when you build something...!!

So my answer is its natural and its true,it can not work otherwise..!
Translation:
So my answer is the same. Its true because its true, its true because i say so, no justification needed, the end!

My answer:
Fail.
since your not interested to live by the rules you claim you play by
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Frodobaggins
Posts: 602
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1/13/2010 8:06:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 3:42:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
A few questions (well really they boil down to the same question) to those who profess religious faith.

Why do you follow the religion that you do?
Because I enjoy doing it, I have faith in it,
How do you know your religion is the one true faith?
I don't "know it" as in I can prove it. I "know it" because I have faith in it.
How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?
Possibly because they are ground firm in their belief that they do not want to understand it. Additionally because something sad happened in their life that they blame God(who they now believe doesn't exist) for. Also because a lot of people claim to be of my religion but are not and use my religion to make themselves superior instead of making God superior. Many of them do not follow Jesus's basic commandments.
What test, example, logic or whatever can be employed to show that your religion is true?

Aristotle's Unmoved Mover, Logical Argument that Time is finite, etc. On top of that to love everyone around you(something that I have a hard time with, but am working on) and to love your God.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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1/13/2010 8:13:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 8:06:12 AM, Frodobaggins wrote:
At 1/13/2010 3:42:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
A few questions (well really they boil down to the same question) to those who profess religious faith.

Why do you follow the religion that you do?
Because I enjoy doing it, I have faith in it,

Good answer.

How do you know your religion is the one true faith?
I don't "know it" as in I can prove it. I "know it" because I have faith in it.

In other words, you don't know it at all. You just believe it. Having faith is fine, you can just say that you wholeheartedly believe it, and that is the truth. Saying that you believe it means that it is true for yourself. Saying that you know it means that it is true for everyone else as well. This is when the statement becomes a lie.

How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?
Possibly because they are ground firm in their belief that they do not want to understand it. Additionally because something sad happened in their life that they blame God(who they now believe doesn't exist) for. Also because a lot of people claim to be of my religion but are not and use my religion to make themselves superior instead of making God superior. Many of them do not follow Jesus's basic commandments.

Or what about people who never grew up aware that your beliefs exist? And can't this argument be applied towards you by other religions? That your God is false and theirs is the true one?

What test, example, logic or whatever can be employed to show that your religion is true?

Aristotle's Unmoved Mover

1. Assumes natural observations to explain supernatural ones
2. Does not validate any conscious god or being, only a force.

Logical Argument that Time is finite

Irrelevant to the issue of God.

On top of that to love everyone around you(something that I have a hard time with, but am working on) and to love your God.

Countless philosophers around the world have used variations of the Golden rule. The only interesting thing about Jesus is that he popped "Love God" along with it. Loving your neighbor leads to visible harmony. Loving God does nothing.

The saying "Time is money" is not made better by replacing it with "Time is money and potato chips are made out of potatoes".
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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1/13/2010 8:20:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 7:48:01 AM, banker wrote:
At 1/13/2010 7:19:17 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/13/2010 6:32:47 AM, banker wrote:
Becuase its truth and its natural and its unable to work otherwise..!
Translation:
Because i say so!
read carefuly the rational at the end
What rational part are you reffering to? Becuase i cannot find it.

Basically, your argument goes like this:
I am right.
Atheists are wrong.
Atheists are wrong.
Therefore i am right.

Where is the rational part? Youve got a non-sequitor.

My answer:
Fail. No justification. No reason. Just "Its the truth, thats how it is. The end".
again dont jump in midle of a post before you read the rational..!!
Again, your argument is not rational at all. Disproving your opponent does not make you right.
Ethiests are going to tell you they could function without faith,but try to prove them how global warming is a hoax they would defand their global warming religion just like any other believer...!
Translation:
Atheists claim to have no faith, but when you poke fun of whatever they believe
the do believe, or they dont? why is my questions poking fun,and yours is just legitimate questions in middle of a post?

Yes, they do believe. Just like how i believe that Gravity exists. Your point?

, they defend it with reason, logic and evidence! oh they do? i cant wait to see logical answeres ...!! on how we have global warming..! i asume the arctic is where the girls with bikinies are today..!!

Go look up Straw man arguments. And while youre at it, go over to the Global Warming post, i am not going to repost what everyone has already posted in that thread.


My answer:
Not all atheists believe in Global warming. But thanks for trying.
not taking responsability,is a real ethiest thing..!! so you claim thet people with faith are the ones who believe god needs libs to help him save the world...!!
now trowing the bug on someone else is a amoral thing that do pass your concious?

I dont understand this sentence. Please rephrase.

Conclusion no one could exist without a faith..! Once you drop one you will adopt a other..!
Translation:
No one can exist without faith, because if you drop one belief based on faith, you must necessarily accept another belief based on faith!

My answer:
Fail. Ive dropped all beliefs based on faith. Its a non-sequitor.

let me see you admit your a global warming freek...!

I dont quite agree that humans are the cause of global warming, but i do agree that the world is getting warmer. Your point? What does global warming have to do with God?

Ethiest argue that you don't need authority to bring order in the world..! Your concious will make sure you do things right..! What a joke . When a athiest opens a small store he writes a buisiness plan,just like a bible and followes it otherwise it can not succeed..! Let alone a town or city..! Its not possible to work without a plan or line of authority...!
Translation:
Atheists say that no authority is required, yet they rely on authority all the time!

My answer:
Yeah, thats why Atheists are trying to topple governments. Thats why Atheists are trying to remove the justice system from our society. Yeah right. Fail.

no they are not trying to topple governments, quite the conterary,they need government. since its impossible and unnatrual to have order with out authority..!! just like a world without a god is unnatral,and cant exist...!! you ethiests dont live niether can you live by the false theory of ethiesem...! thats why you have authority and order when you build something...!!

Yes, and no atheist has ever claimed that the government doesnt, or shouldnt exist.

However, the difference between Government and God, is that the government and their laws are Prescriptive, while nature and its laws is descriptive. Youre making an equivocation fallacy.

This is why your argument fails.


So my answer is its natural and its true,it can not work otherwise..!
Translation:
So my answer is the same. Its true because its true, its true because i say so, no justification needed, the end!

My answer:
Fail.
since your not interested to live by the rules you claim you play by

I dont understand. When did i ever say that the Government and their rules do not exist, should not exist, or that i am not interested in them? Again, your argument makes use of a fallacy, and thats why you fail.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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1/13/2010 8:27:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 8:06:12 AM, Frodobaggins wrote:
Because I enjoy doing it, I have faith in it,
Just like how someone follows a satanic murder cult because they enjoy it.
I don't "know it" as in I can prove it. I "know it" because I have faith in it.

Just like someone "Knows" that the earth is flat because he has faith in it.

How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?
Possibly because they are ground firm in their belief that they do not want to understand it. Additionally because something sad happened in their life that they blame God(who they now believe doesn't exist) for. Also because a lot of people claim to be of my religion but are not and use my religion to make themselves superior instead of making God superior. Many of them do not follow Jesus's basic commandments.

None of this applies to people who are not apart of your religion but believe in a God nonetheless.

Aristotle's Unmoved Mover,

fails both scientifically and logically.

Logical Argument that Time is finite,

which has nothing to do with God.

etc.

I have no idea which argument you could possibly have, but im betting it doesnt prove God, or if it did, it fails scientifically or logically.

On top of that to love everyone around you(something that I have a hard time with, but am working on) and to love your God.

How is this proof of God, any more than a person who hates everyone around him and hates God, proof that no God exists?
Frodobaggins
Posts: 602
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1/13/2010 8:49:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 8:13:05 AM, Kleptin wrote:
I don't "know it" as in I can prove it. I "know it" because I have faith in it.

In other words, you don't know it at all. You just believe it. Having faith is fine, you can just say that you wholeheartedly believe it, and that is the truth. Saying that you believe it means that it is true for yourself. Saying that you know it means that it is true for everyone else as well. This is when the statement becomes a lie.

There are plenty of things in life that do not require logic or science to prove their existence for us to know that they exist. Love is a great example. Since humanities beginning we've known it exists. If anyone was to explain to me that it logically can't exist, nor does it scientifically exist and that it's merely instinct or a collection of chemical processes, I'd laugh and feel sorry for the person who attempts to live his life without it.

That's how I feel about God.

Or what about people who never grew up aware that your beliefs exist? And can't this argument be applied towards you by other religions? That your God is false and theirs is the true one?

I don't presume to be the judge on this one. In my mind there is only one judge, and I highly doubt he judges people as a broad vague group but rather as a whole.

Aristotle's Unmoved Mover

1. Assumes natural observations to explain supernatural ones
2. Does not validate any conscious god or being, only a force.

I'm satisfied with the force.

Logical Argument that Time is finite

Irrelevant to the issue of God.
Relevant to the unmoved mover theory thus relevant to God.

On top of that to love everyone around you(something that I have a hard time with, but am working on) and to love your God.

Loving God does nothing.
For you, perhaps this is accurate.
Sylux
Posts: 290
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1/13/2010 8:50:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Why?

Because I said so.
"Can you see? Do you know?
The string behind you, it's shiny and pretty.
Where is my string.
Give me because I don't know.
Give me your string.
Give me everything."
-grasshoppa
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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1/13/2010 9:02:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 8:49:29 AM, Frodobaggins wrote:
At 1/13/2010 8:13:05 AM, Kleptin wrote:
I don't "know it" as in I can prove it. I "know it" because I have faith in it.

In other words, you don't know it at all. You just believe it. Having faith is fine, you can just say that you wholeheartedly believe it, and that is the truth. Saying that you believe it means that it is true for yourself. Saying that you know it means that it is true for everyone else as well. This is when the statement becomes a lie.

There are plenty of things in life that do not require logic or science to prove their existence for us to know that they exist. Love is a great example. Since humanities beginning we've known it exists. If anyone was to explain to me that it logically can't exist, nor does it scientifically exist and that it's merely instinct or a collection of chemical processes, I'd laugh and feel sorry for the person who attempts to live his life without it.
Utter BS.

Love is something that exists, and we can show that it exists via science. its an emotion, and like all emotions, exist in the brain. We can fake love, euphoria, attraction, etc by stimulating different parts of the brain.

Explaining love, or anything, scientifically, does not mean weve proved it doesnt exist. I fail to see why understanding the scientific explanation behind Love, automatically means that we must live without it. Knowing how the flower blooms does not make the flower any less beautiful. Your argument is crap.

Or what about people who never grew up aware that your beliefs exist? And can't this argument be applied towards you by other religions? That your God is false and theirs is the true one?

I don't presume to be the judge on this one. In my mind there is only one judge, and I highly doubt he judges people as a broad vague group but rather as a whole.

Really? So id go to heaven, being a good, kind person? Thats great to hear.

Aristotle's Unmoved Mover

1. Assumes natural observations to explain supernatural ones
2. Does not validate any conscious god or being, only a force.

I'm satisfied with the force.

So God is along the lines of gravity, where he has no conscious, no sentience, could not possibly care anymore than a rock cares about you? Thats great to hear.


Logical Argument that Time is finite

Irrelevant to the issue of God.
Relevant to the unmoved mover theory thus relevant to God.

Actually, no. Even if Time is finite, that still tells us nothing about the existance of God. Its not as if God COULD NOT exist unless time was finite. Couldnt God exist and make time infinite as well? Isnt that possible at all?
banker
Posts: 1,370
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1/13/2010 9:14:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 8:20:41 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/13/2010 7:48:01 AM, banker wrote:
At 1/13/2010 7:19:17 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/13/2010 6:32:47 AM, banker wrote:
Becuase its truth and its natural and its unable to work otherwise..!
Translation:
Because i say so!
read carefuly the rational at the end
What rational part are you reffering to? Becuase i cannot find it.

Basically, your argument goes like this:
I am right.
Atheists are wrong.
Atheists are wrong.
Therefore i am right.
again typical ethiest making rules that does not apply to them..!!
you reply to a post, bringing rational for his believe. you try to discredit the post...and prove it wrong..!! how.? by claiming that poster does not give rational..! only proving ethiesem wrong..!!

did you prove why your ethiest.? no!!
did you say my rational is wrong? yes
now you come and you blame me for doing what you do..!!
the same hypocracy that turned you into a ethiest,is used to argue against people with faith..!!
you ask for rules your not interested to abide by..!!

do you even feal obligated to bring rational for your ethiest believe? no you dont since you did not even try..!! but all you care to do is say why faith is wrong..!!
then blame the ones who gave rational to thier faith.. for your shortcomings...!!


Where is the rational part? Youve got a non-sequitor.

again you never even tried to give yours but you ask me to play by rules that in your opinion does not apply to you...!!

My answer:
Fail. No justification. No reason. Just "Its the truth, thats how it is. The end".
again dont jump in midle of a post before you read the rational..!!
Again, your argument is not rational at all. Disproving your opponent does not make you right.
again your just disproving my rational without replacing it with yours..!! asking me to play by rules ,that in your opinion is not applying to you..!!
Ethiests are going to tell you they could function without faith,but try to prove them how global warming is a hoax they would defand their global warming religion just like any other believer...!
Translation:
Atheists claim to have no faith, but when you poke fun of whatever they believe
they do believe, or they dont? why is my questions poking fun,and yours is just legitimate questions in middle of a post?

Yes, they do believe. Just like how i believe that Gravity exists.
no facts are not to be confused with belive

, they defend it with reason, logic and evidence! oh they do? i cant wait to see logical answeres ...!! on how we have global warming..! i asume the arctic is where the girls with bikinies are today..!!

Go look up Straw man arguments. And while youre at it, go over to the Global Warming post, i am not going to repost what everyone has already posted in that thread.

as if you would be able to if you wanted..! also you still ask me to do it regardless.. but rules is not aplying to you..!!


My answer:
Not all atheists believe in Global warming. But thanks for trying.
not taking responsability,is a real ethiest thing..!! so you claim thet people with faith are the ones who believe god needs libs to help him save the world...!!
now trowing the bug on someone else is a amoral thing that do pass your concious?

I dont understand this sentence. Please rephrase.

"you said not all ethists believe in global warming" ,
since when are you a spokesmen for ethiests? i am not a spoksmen for people with faith..!! "however" i take responsability for my believe..! i told you why i do..! you did not tell me why you dont...! i answer why believe..!! you say you might not believe, or not all do believe..!! your dodging the bullet and you try to play by other rules you request from me...!!

Conclusion no one could exist without a faith..! Once you drop one you will adopt a other..!
Translation:
No one can exist without faith, because if you drop one belief based on faith, you must necessarily accept another belief based on faith!

My answer:
Fail. Ive dropped all beliefs based on faith. Its a non-sequitor.

let me see you admit your a global warming freek...!

I dont quite agree that humans are the cause of global warming, but i do agree that the world is getting warmer. Your point? What does global warming have to do with God?
you belive its geting warmer but not global warming...!! you cant even finish a sentence without contradictions


Ethiest argue that you don't need authority to bring order in the world..! Your concious will make sure you do things right..! What a joke . When a athiest opens a small store he writes a buisiness plan,just like a bible and followes it otherwise it can not succeed..! Let alone a town or city..! Its not possible to work without a plan or line of authority...!
Translation:
Atheists say that no authority is required, yet they rely on authority all the time!

My answer:
Yeah, thats why Atheists are trying to topple governments. Thats why Atheists are trying to remove the justice system from our society. Yeah right. Fail.

no they are not trying to topple governments, quite the conterary,they need government. since its impossible and unnatrual to have order with out authority..!! just like a world without a god is unnatral,and cant exist...!! you ethiests dont live niether can you live by the false theory of ethiesem...! thats why you have authority and order when you build something...!!

Yes, and no atheist has ever claimed that the government doesnt, or shouldnt exist.

However, the difference between Government and God, is that the government and their laws are Prescriptive, while nature and its laws is descriptive. Youre making an equivocation fallacy.
how is that differance changing the logic..?

This is why your argument fails.


So my answer is its natural and its true,it can not work otherwise..!
Translation:
So my answer is the same. Its true because its true, its true because i say so, no justification needed, the end!

My answer:
Fail.
since your not interested to live by the rules you claim you play by

I dont understand. When did i ever say that the Government and their rules do not exist, should not exist, or that i am not interested in them? Again, your argument makes use of a fallacy, and thats why you fail.

i see you dont understand thats why your ethiest
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Sylux
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1/13/2010 9:15:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
What is an ethiest?
"Can you see? Do you know?
The string behind you, it's shiny and pretty.
Where is my string.
Give me because I don't know.
Give me your string.
Give me everything."
-grasshoppa
tkubok
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1/13/2010 9:27:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 9:14:55 AM, banker wrote:
again typical ethiest making rules that does not apply to them..!!

What are you talking about. Not once in my argument have i ever said "You are wrong, therefore i am right". Its you whos made that argument. That rule applies to everyone. Which is why you will not see me use that argument.
you reply to a post, bringing rational for his believe. you try to discredit the post...and prove it wrong..!! how.? by claiming that poster does not give rational..! only proving ethiesem wrong..!!

But i never said "Therefore, atheism is right". Did i? no. Exactly.

did you prove why your ethiest.? no!!
Of course not. I do not have to prove that a God does not exist.
did you say my rational is wrong? yes
Indeed.
now you come and you blame me for doing what you do..!!
Now, i never and have never said that "Therefore atheism is right".
the same hypocracy that turned you into a ethiest,is used to argue against people with faith..!!
Again, no. You fail.
you ask for rules your not interested to abide by..!!
I ask for rules that, if not followed, produce logical fallacies. If you can produce a logical fallacy that ive made, id be happy to concede to that point. But guess what. I havent.

do you even feal obligated to bring rational for your ethiest believe? no you dont since you did not even try..!! but all you care to do is say why faith is wrong..!!
then blame the ones who gave rational to thier faith.. for your shortcomings...!!
Were not talking about atheism. Were talking about Religion.

If you want a rational argument as to why i am an atheist, id be happy to provide it. i just didnt know that we were talking about Atheism, instead of what this thread originally intended to talk about, which was religion.

again you never even tried to give yours but you ask me to play by rules that in your opinion does not apply to you...!!

Id be happy to give my rational argument at the end of this reply.

no facts are not to be confused with belive

So, you know for a fact that Gravity will exist tommorow? how do you know that? Do you have a time machine? Can you see into the future?

as if you would be able to if you wanted..! also you still ask me to do it regardless.. but rules is not aplying to you..!!
Again, theres already a thread dedicated to discussing Global warming. I am not going to repost the replies there. I have no problem if you choose to direct me to another thread that explains your position better.

"you said not all ethists believe in global warming" ,
since when are you a spokesmen for ethiests? i am not a spoksmen for people with faith..!! "however" i take responsability for my believe..! i told you why i do..! you did not tell me why you dont...! i answer why believe..!! you say you might not believe, or not all do believe..!! your dodging the bullet and you try to play by other rules you request from me...!!

I know for a fact that not all atheists believe in global warming.

Why?

Because i am one of them. Well, atleast to a degree.

you belive its geting warmer but not global warming...!! you cant even finish a sentence without contradictions

not global warming caused by people, no. Everyone agrees the earth is getting warmer. The SPECIFIC conflict regarding global warming, is whether HUMANS are to blame. THIS IS THE ARGUMENT that is CURRENTLY being debated upon.

You dont even know the core arguments of global warming. How sad are you.

how is that differance changing the logic..?
I dont understand the question.

i see you dont understand thats why your ethiest
Understand... what? Your english? youre right, I dont understand most of what you type. maybe thats why im an atheist. Maybe if you had gone to a descent school instead of the unaccredited Muslo-christian hybrid college of doctorates, you couldve explained it to me in a way that actually made sense.

Anyways, heres my argument for being an atheist.

My goal is to accept as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible.

Therefore i reject all beliefs which have little to no scientific or logical evidence or arguments to back it up.

So far, no religion has ever produced a valid, sound logical syllogism for the existance of a God. Theologians have been trying to do this for an upwards of about 3000 years. They just cannot do it.

This is why i reject the existance of a God. Its that simple.
InquireTruth
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1/13/2010 10:00:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Why do you follow the religion that you do?

I think serious Christians (and by serious I mean ones who are not Christian by name only) would prefer relationship over religion. As such, I follow Christianity because my relationship with Jesus Christ calls for it. If someone, by way of concrete and objective proof, was able to prove the nonexistence of God with the utmost certainty, I still could not deny my relationship with Jesus.

How do you know your religion is the one true faith?

They same way I discern any other form of truth. My relationship with Jesus Christ exceeds the justificatory criteria by which truth is "known."

How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?

Some people do not understand that Christianity is true because they (1) are apathetic, (2) stubbornly obtuse and unwilling to explore the possibility or (3) have never heard. The last one is forgivable and Christianity (unless you are of the reformed epistemology) teaches that those people will be judged differently - for more information read C.S. Lewis', Mere Christianity.

Imagine for a moment that you experience your entire family being murdered before you. The vision of that frightful moment will no doubt haunt your memories forever. The killer spared you but left no evidence at all of murder, only your experience of it. Now imagine that some people deny that this event ever happened. They insist that you are lying or that your experiences are false - based on defunct stimuli or some mental inability. No matter your protests, some people will simply not believe - and will adamantly deny it. Others will simply not care whether it's true or not. And still others will simply never know of it at all. Now, do the deniers, apathetics or non-knowers make your experience any less valid or the event any less true?

So imagine my frustration when others make truth-value assumptions of MY experiences.

What test, example, logic or whatever can be employed to show that your religion is true?

You don't FIND relationships or discover them through the scientific method. Even if ALL the top theistic arguments for theism succeed, we have not proved relationship. But there are plenty of people who are introduced to the saving work of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.

If you want a relationship with Jesus Christ, open the door of your hardened heart and accept the One who has been knocking at it all along.
tkubok
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1/13/2010 1:28:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 10:00:04 AM, InquireTruth wrote:
Why do you follow the religion that you do?

I think serious Christians (and by serious I mean ones who are not Christian by name only) would prefer relationship over religion. As such, I follow Christianity because my relationship with Jesus Christ calls for it. If someone, by way of concrete and objective proof, was able to prove the nonexistence of God with the utmost certainty, I still could not deny my relationship with Jesus.

Ive never met someone who was in a relationship with another person, where their relationship was wholly dependent on the belief that the other person existed.

Oh wait, im sorry, my mistake. I have met someone like that. My cousins 6 year old has an invisible friend named Charlie.

How do you know your religion is the one true faith?

They same way I discern any other form of truth. My relationship with Jesus Christ exceeds the justificatory criteria by which truth is "known."

Although id ask exactly what criterion you go with, if youre going to accept a relationship with something that is intangible and dependant on you believing that he exists, i can say now that i do not expect your criteria to be very high.

How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?

Some people do not understand that Islam is true because they (1) are apathetic, (2) stubbornly obtuse and unwilling to explore the possibility or (3) have never heard. The last one is forgivable and Islam(unless you are of the reformed epistemology) teaches that those people will be judged differently - for more information read C.S. Lewis', Mere Muslims.

If your IQ is above 80, you will notice that ive replaced the instances of "Christianity" and "Christian" with Islam and Muslim.

The funny thing is, the argument is just as valid as it was before. Infact, it hasnt changed in regards to validity. And this is exactly how you know an argument is BS.

Oh, and concerning your points:
1). If your position is True, and you truly believe it to be true, then you should have no problem convincing someone who is apathetic, to atleast agree with you.
2). I used to be a christian. Infact, ive used to be many things. I tried the possibilities out. Ive read the bible many times. Ive been to church. Prayed. Hit on my knees and asked. And guess what, they all failed.
3). If this is forgivable, wouldnt the most SELFLESS DEED you could ever do is utterly stop preaching about the bible, so that future generations are free from this dribble and get to enter heaven with a free pass? Wouldnt this be the BEST thing in the world to do, to ensure that all future generations are gaurunteed to enter heaven, or atleast partially guaranteed to enter heaven? Wouldnt you like your children to enter heaven, instead of presenting them with Christianity and the possibility of rejecting it?

So, in other words, all three of your points utterly failed in explaining why some people do not understand christianity.

BTW, C.S. Lewis is the most utterly unconvincing christian apologist ever. One of his arguments is "The tomb was empty". Well thats great. So the best explanation, the most rational explanation you can come up with in regards to an empty tomb, is that some magical sky being must have rolled away the rock and resurrected the body inside? Man, id love to hear CS Lewis explain an empty casket at a soldiers funeral.

Imagine for a moment that you experience your entire family being murdered before you. The vision of that frightful moment will no doubt haunt your memories forever. The killer spared you but left no evidence at all of murder, only your experience of it. Now imagine that some people deny that this event ever happened. They insist that you are lying or that your experiences are false - based on defunct stimuli or some mental inability. No matter your protests, some people will simply not believe - and will adamantly deny it. Others will simply not care whether it's true or not. And still others will simply never know of it at all. Now, do the deniers, apathetics or non-knowers make your experience any less valid or the event any less true?

Uh, not really. You see, even if the murderer left no trace of his actions-oh wait, he did! Your parents are gone. And unless your parents were not fleeing from the law or some other reason why they would had to leave without a trace, clearly something DID occur, and with only your testimony to account for your MISSING parents, people, the police your other family members WILL INFACT believe you.

A more apt analogy would be the following:
Imagine yourself sitting on your couch watching TV, when suddenly a pink lizard appears infront of you that transforms into an elephant, and then vanishes without a trace. You look for it everywhere: under the table, beneath the couch, behind the bookracks, but you cannot find a trace of it anywhere.

Now, there are two possible conclusions you can make from this experience.

One, is "OMIGOSH it was Ganesh in the form of a pink lizard-elephant hybrid that appeared to me, showing me which religion is correct!"

The other, is "I looked behind my stove and found out the gas was leaking".

So imagine my frustration when others make truth-value assumptions of MY experiences.

Imagine JZ Knights frustration when people come to tell her, a Tacoma housewife turned cult leader, that shes not actually channeling the spirit of Ramtha, a 35,000 year old spirit warrior from Atlantis.

No one is saying that you didnt experience it. With the above example, i am not saying that the person who saw the Pink lizard-elephant, is lying, or that he didnt experience what he believed to have experienced. But i fail to see why its a bad thing to make a truth-value ASSESSMENT of another persons experiences.

Infact, You, being a christian, MUST HAVE made the SAME assessment about other peoples experiences, or else you would be a Hindu, or a Muslim, or belong to some other religion. Infact, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a belief ANY belief, until you ASSESS the truth-value of opposing claims.

What test, example, logic or whatever can be employed to show that your religion is true?

You don't FIND relationships or discover them through the scientific method. Even if ALL the top theistic arguments for theism succeed, we have not proved relationship. But there are plenty of people who are introduced to the saving work of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.

If i cannot find the relationship with Jesus christ, then what is the point of me opening the door of my hardened heart? If I did, that would be the equivalent of searching, would it not? You contradict yourself here, sir.

In any case, there are plenty of people who are introduced to evil works of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit as well, such as the christian who shot the abortion clinic doctor in a church.

If you want a relationship with Jesus Christ, open the door of your hardened heart and accept the One who has been knocking at it all along.

Well, ive tried and so have a number of other people. Now, you might be quick to suggest that maybe i wasnt trying enough, or that i wasnt humble enough, or that i wasnt sincere enough, or that it wasnt my time, etc etc etc. But clearly there must be something more, something other than simply opening the door of our hardened heart in order to believe in christianity.
InsertNameHere
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1/13/2010 1:32:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 3:42:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
A few questions (well really they boil down to the same question) to those who profess religious faith.

Why do you follow the religion that you do?

So I can blow things up because blowing things up is...FUN!!!!

How do you know your religion is the one true faith?

I said so because God said so.

How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?

Because other people are all infidels and should be killed. JIHAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!

What test, example, logic or whatever can be employed to show that your religion is true?

Because God said it's true.

Ok, seriously. What a crap quiz.
tkubok
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1/13/2010 1:47:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 1:32:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 1/13/2010 3:42:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
A few questions (well really they boil down to the same question) to those who profess religious faith.

Why do you follow the religion that you do?

So I can blow things up because blowing things up is...FUN!!!!
Cant argue with that logic.
How do you know your religion is the one true faith?

I said so because God said so.
Wow, what an awesome argument.
How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?

Because other people are all infidels and should be killed. JIHAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!

What test, example, logic or whatever can be employed to show that your religion is true?

Because God said it's true.

Well im convinced. Hail Jebus and Mahamut.

Ok, seriously. What a crap quiz.
Oh, you were lying. :(
InsertNameHere
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1/13/2010 1:49:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 1:47:38 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/13/2010 1:32:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 1/13/2010 3:42:53 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
A few questions (well really they boil down to the same question) to those who profess religious faith.

Why do you follow the religion that you do?

So I can blow things up because blowing things up is...FUN!!!!
Cant argue with that logic.
How do you know your religion is the one true faith?

I said so because God said so.
Wow, what an awesome argument.
How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?

Because other people are all infidels and should be killed. JIHAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!

What test, example, logic or whatever can be employed to show that your religion is true?

Because God said it's true.

Well im convinced. Hail Jebus and Mahamut.


Ok, seriously. What a crap quiz.
Oh, you were lying. :(

Umm...yea. You should realize that every single one of my answers wasn't serious. xD
InquireTruth
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1/13/2010 2:33:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ive never met someone who was in a relationship with another person, where their relationship was wholly dependent on the belief that the other person existed.
Every single relationship is wholly dependent on the belief that the other person exists. I'm actually quite surprised that you think differently.

i can say now that i do not expect your criteria to be very high.
What, precisely, is a more appropriate justificatory framework for truth? As I have already pointed out, every single relationship known to humankind is unilaterally contingent upon the belief that both parties ACTUALLY exist.

If your IQ is above 80, you will notice that ive replaced the instances of "Christianity" and "Christian" with Islam and Muslim.

I understand that you probably have self-esteem issues and that's why you make sport of preying on the intellectually vulnerable, but do not mistake me for someone who is intimidated by your ability to string together irrelevant pejoratives. Your ability to discern argument from explanation is remarkably lacking. A question requires an answer, not an argument - do you know the difference?

Your egregious misunderstanding of C.S. Lewis', Mere Christianity is even more telling. His book was an explanation of basic Christian doctrine - not a polemic.
Your responses for the three camps I listed is not worth my time. You apparently have no understanding of apathy, what it is to be Christian or the very basics of Christian doctrine.

Uh, not really. You see, even if the murderer left no trace of his actions-oh wait, he did! Your parents are gone.
Apparently, and ironically, the criterion in my justificatory framework for truth is much higher than yours. Missing people is evidence of just that - missing people. Your failure to effectively address the relevant point in the analogy is all too typical of those who commonly miss the point.

Infact, You, being a christian, MUST HAVE made the SAME assessment about other peoples experiences
There is a space between "in" and "fact." Now that that is settled, I would very much like to hear about these experiences that I have denied. I think we should put all experiences to the same test. You act as if I'm some hyper-credulous nut who believes anything he feels or thinks to have seen. I put all my experiences through the same test, and lo and behold, I still believe in Jesus and his Love more than I believe that you are in fact an actual person.

Well, ive tried and so have a number of other people. Now, you might be quick to suggest that maybe i wasnt trying enough, or that i wasnt humble enough, or that i wasnt sincere enough, or that it wasnt my time, etc etc etc. But clearly there must be something more, something other than simply opening the door of our hardened heart in order to believe in christianity.
I don't know you and by the way you act and treat people, I have a hard time even caring. I don't know about your attempts or failures. I don't know about your sincerity or openness. I don't know how you did it or if you did it. What I do know is that people are being filled with the Holy Spirit everyday and they KNOW it. Like the kid in the video, he was an atheist before then, he maybe even had some rational and intellectual proofs. But God worked marvels before his eyes and he felt the Holy Spirit upon his hands and he knew. He was changed and he was radical about the person of Jesus Christ. I have that. And I wish that you did too.
banker
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1/13/2010 3:16:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 9:27:30 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/13/2010 9:14:55 AM, banker wrote:
again typical ethiest making rules that does not apply to them..!!

What are you talking about. Not once in my argument have i ever said "You are wrong, therefore i am right". Its you whos made that argument. That rule applies to everyone. Which is why you will not see me use that argument.

you use a old trick common to hypocrites ,its called selective understanding instead of rewriting my point i will paste it..!!
again typical ethiest making rules that does not apply to them..!!
you reply to a post, bringing rational for his believe. you try to discredit the post...and prove it wrong..!! how.? by claiming that poster does not give rational..! only proving ethiesem wrong..!!

did you prove why your ethiest.? no!!
did you say my rational is wrong? yes
now you come and you blame me for doing what you do..!!
the same hypocracy that turned you into a ethiest,is used to argue against people with faith..!!
you ask for rules your not interested to abide by..!!

do you even feal obligated to bring rational for your ethiest believe? no you dont since you did not even try..!! but all you care to do is say why faith is wrong..!!
then blame the ones who gave rational to thier faith.. for your shortcomings...!!

you conviniantly cut it out and came back with a question as if your not understanding it
you reply to a post, bringing rational for his believe. you try to discredit the post...and prove it wrong..!! how.? by claiming that poster does not give rational..! only proving ethiesem wrong..!!

But i never said "Therefore, atheism is right". Did i? no. Exactly.

you never said anything , why you believe its right..!! becuase your not playing by rules you request from others like all selective understanders(hypocrits)

did you prove why your ethiest.? no!!
Of course not. I do not have to prove that a God does not exist.
since your elite and play by your own rules..! otherwise you dont have any excuse why your believe that some accident created a bacteria like us and a magnificent order coincidently got created...!! again your elite you selectively understand why others have rules so you dont need to give rational like the rest of us!!

did you say my rational is wrong? yes
since our rules is imposed by a hypocrite like you.!! only we need to prove why we are not a bacteria..!! but you could just say we are wrong and you dont need to say why your right..!!
Indeed.
now you come and you blame me for doing what you do..!!
Now, i never and have never said that "Therefore atheism is right".
you believe we should understand so since elites like you said so..!! otherwise you would give a rational..!!
the same hypocracy that turned you into a ethiest,is used to argue against people with faith..!!
Again, no. You fail.
coming from you yourself...!!
you ask for rules your not interested to abide by..!!
I ask for rules that, if not followed, produce logical fallacies.
again not explaining why its so...!!
If you can produce a logical fallacy that ive made,
you did not even try to rationalize...!!

what a poor excuse of a brain...!!
id be happy to concede to that point. But guess what. I havent.

do you even feal obligated to bring rational for your ethiest believe? no you dont since you did not even try..!! but all you care to do is say why faith is wrong..!!
then blame the ones who gave rational to thier faith.. for your shortcomings...!!
Were not talking about atheism. Were talking about Religion. i am amased at your proffesional stupidity how meny years do you need train to be as stupid as you.?
are you realy telling me that your religous now ? or you pretend that since your ateist you are some how not commited to play by the same rules?
are you not here talking as a ateist.? why are you denying it?

If you want a rational argument as to why i am an atheist, id be happy to provide it.

thats so nice of you making a gesture to play by rules you request from all..!!
i just didnt know that we were talking about Atheism, it just accured that you have been the one starting that conversation...!! what a freek
instead of what this thread originally intended to talk about, which was religion.

again you never even tried to give yours but you ask me to play by rules that in your opinion does not apply to you...!!

Id be happy to give my rational argument at the end of this reply.



no facts are not to be confused with belive

So, you know for a fact that Gravity will exist tommorow? how do you know that? Do you have a time machine? Can you see into the future?

why is it that endangered species ,and global warming, ozone layers destruction, and other trash science, could predict the future without your questions? but my post that somthing that according to you, is here for millions of years needs to be proved it will exist ...!! despite your believe or disbelieve (depends i assume in the weather) of global warming...!!


as if you would be able to if you wanted..! also you still ask me to do it regardless.. but rules is not aplying to you..!!
Again, theres already a thread dedicated to discussing Global warming. I am not going to repost the replies there.
becuase you cant

I have no problem if you choose to direct me to another thread that explains your position better.

"you said not all ethists believe in global warming" ,
since when are you a spokesmen for ethiests? i am not a spoksmen for people with faith..!! "however" i take responsability for my believe..! i told you why i do..! you did not tell me why you dont...! i answer why believe..!! you say you might not believe, or not all do believe..!! your dodging the bullet and you try to play by other rules you request from me...!!

I know for a fact that not all atheists believe in global warming.
lol i know for a fact people of faith are aware god does not need libs to save his world...!!

Why?

Because i am one of them.
are we talking of atheisem or religion?
Well, atleast to a degree.


you belive its geting warmer but not global warming...!! you cant even finish a sentence without contradictions

not global warming caused by people, no. Everyone agrees the earth is getting warmer. The SPECIFIC conflict regarding global warming, is whether HUMANS are to blame. THIS IS THE ARGUMENT that is CURRENTLY being debated upon.

You dont even know the core arguments of global warming. How sad are you.


how is that differance changing the logic..?
I dont understand the question.
selective understanding

i see you dont understand thats why your ethiest
Understand... what? Your english? youre right, I dont understand most of what you type. maybe thats why im an atheist. Maybe if you had gone to a descent school instead of the unaccredited Muslo-christian hybrid college of doctorates, you couldve explained it to me in a way that actually made sense.


Anyways, heres my argument for being an atheist.

My goal is to accept as many true beliefs and as few false beliefs as possible.

Therefore i reject all beliefs which have little to no scientific or logical evidence or arguments to back it up.

So far, no religion has ever produced a valid, sound logical syllogism for the existance of a God.
yes it did only you make gestures but no rationals
Theologians have been trying to do this for an upwards of about 3000 years. They just cannot do it.

libs try to come up with trash science

This is why i reject the existance of a God. Its that simple.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Kahvan
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1/13/2010 3:53:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Why do you follow the religion that you do?
Because life experiences have taught me that it is. Also because it stands all the tests and questions and doubts and all the other crap and questions I put against it. That and faith. Of course faith.

How do you know your religion is the one true faith?
See the reason before. Also because of this. I don't want you to believe me that y religion is true. I don't want to convince you and argue that it is. I want you to go out and find for yourself if its true. I will answer questions but I will not bend your arm to convert you.

How is that other people can not understand that your religion is true?
Because we are human and we choose whether or not we want to believe something. A human can choose to not believe something that's true. For example lets just say (I'm not saying it is or isn't) for the point of this analogy that global warming is real. People still choose to not believe it.

What test, example, logic or whatever can be employed to show that your religion is true?
You have to find out for yourself that it is true. We believe in personal revelation. That doesn't mean that an angel will come down and tell you so. But it does mean that you can receive a spiritual witness that it is true.
banker
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1/13/2010 9:10:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Insert why you say islam is bad? Its just some people who try to currupt islam by becoming spiritual killers to make islam look bad
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
InsertNameHere
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1/13/2010 9:14:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 9:10:33 PM, banker wrote:
Insert why you say islam is bad? Its just some people who try to currupt islam by becoming spiritual killers to make islam look bad

You do know I was impersonating you, right? You say Islam is bad, not me.
Kleptin
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1/13/2010 10:27:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/13/2010 8:49:29 AM, Frodobaggins wrote:
There are plenty of things in life that do not require logic or science to prove their existence for us to know that they exist. Love is a great example. Since humanities beginning we've known it exists. If anyone was to explain to me that it logically can't exist, nor does it scientifically exist and that it's merely instinct or a collection of chemical processes, I'd laugh and feel sorry for the person who attempts to live his life without it.

This is probably one of the most common and misused arguments. Love exists, and love exists as a collection of chemical processes. This, in no way, devalues the importance of love, the significance of love. If anything, it makes love even more precious and valuable, to know that it is a legitimate and natural occurrence, not magic or voodoo. The concept of love was developed to label an emotion that all humans feel, much like happiness or depression. We know they exist because they impact our lives in a direct way, and because we know that they are, indeed, chemical reactions.

That's how I feel about God.

If so, then I am sorry. You should believe God and have faith in God and accept that God exists to you, but to say that you *know* God exists is completely wrong. You can show that love exists, you can show that happiness exists. You cannot show that God exists. The problem I have with most theists is that they don't understand themselves. You represent such a theist. If you truly believed, you would have no difficulty stating that you cannot logically prove that God exists the way that love and happiness do, and you would understand that such a statement in no way undermines the legitimacy of your faith.

I don't presume to be the judge on this one. In my mind there is only one judge, and I highly doubt he judges people as a broad vague group but rather as a whole.

In other words, you don't know. Since you are uncertain of this, it leads me to question your certainty of everything else about your God.

I'm satisfied with the force.

So are atheists.

Relevant to the unmoved mover theory thus relevant to God.

Unmoved mover theory is irrelevant to God :)

For you, perhaps this is accurate.

Then let me rephrase. In terms of actual, physical results, following the commandment of loving your neighbor leads to good while loving god does nothing.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.