Total Posts:9|Showing Posts:1-9
Jump to topic:

Secular Politics.

Lordgrae
Posts: 666
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/17/2014 9:57:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I feel that this is one of those topics that is most misunderstood by many theists. I think this is something important to discuss, so if you have problems with secular politics, or reasons for it, please discuss below.

Secular politics is where belief (O.r L.ack T.hereof) does not govern. The government can neither restrict freedom of belief (OLT), nor can it allow one person's, or many people's beliefs (OLT) to extend over others in legislation, without cause not founded in spiritual belief (OLT).

So everytime you are angry that an atheist wants 'under god' to not be in the pledge of allegiance, they are also for your right to not have 'under no god' in the pledge, or 'in god we don't trust' on our money. Every time you see atheists protest the ten commandments being put up on a courthouse, they do it because they know that you would not want atheist tenets put up on a courthouse funded by your dollars. The next time that you see an atheist protesting religious based arguments against homosexuality in legislation, regardless of their stance on the matter, it is because you would not want us saying that because there is no god, Christians should not have holy matrimony.

I would very much enjoy hearing your thoughts, oh great and at some times disappointing masses of DDO's religious epicenter.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/18/2014 2:14:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 9:57:50 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
I feel that this is one of those topics that is most misunderstood by many theists. I think this is something important to discuss, so if you have problems with secular politics, or reasons for it, please discuss below.

Secular politics is where belief (O.r L.ack T.hereof) does not govern. The government can neither restrict freedom of belief (OLT), nor can it allow one person's, or many people's beliefs (OLT) to extend over others in legislation, without cause not founded in spiritual belief (OLT).

So everytime you are angry that an atheist wants 'under god' to not be in the pledge of allegiance, they are also for your right to not have 'under no god' in the pledge, or 'in god we don't trust' on our money. Every time you see atheists protest the ten commandments being put up on a courthouse, they do it because they know that you would not want atheist tenets put up on a courthouse funded by your dollars. The next time that you see an atheist protesting religious based arguments against homosexuality in legislation, regardless of their stance on the matter, it is because you would not want us saying that because there is no god, Christians should not have holy matrimony.

I would very much enjoy hearing your thoughts, oh great and at some times disappointing masses of DDO's religious epicenter.

And I see you get no responses. I guess your argument is sound.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/18/2014 2:22:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yes indeed. I was hoping to get more of a FOX news response to this so I could laugh myself to sleep.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/12/2014 6:15:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 9:57:50 PM, Lordgrae wrote:

I would very much enjoy hearing your thoughts, oh great and at some times disappointing masses of DDO's religious epicenter.

Probably you got no Christian response because your post was smug and condescending. But that is just my opinion. Perhaps you think smug and condescending would attract droves of "some times disappointing" Christians to your post. How did that work for ya?

Well, you got me, but I'm twisted in that I'm attracted to militant atheists so......

Secular politics is where belief (O.r L.ack T.hereof) does not govern.

You mean where religious belief does not govern right?

Can you name one law we currently have that was fashioned by religious belief with which you disagree? You have made a red herring.

Also, simply because a man has a religious belief doesn't mean he will govern according to them. Atheists govern according to their beliefs, but since they reject the word "religious" to describe their beliefs, all is ok? Really?

But I have a question. You're poor at responding to questions but I'll ask anyway.

1. In the secular politics atheists tout, is the law decided by the majority?
2.If yes, is it possible that one of those laws could be immoral?
3. If no, what then decides the law if not the majority?

Thanks.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/13/2014 10:18:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/12/2014 6:15:39 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/17/2014 9:57:50 PM, Lordgrae wrote:

I would very much enjoy hearing your thoughts, oh great and at some times disappointing masses of DDO's religious epicenter.

Probably you got no Christian response because your post was smug and condescending. But that is just my opinion. Perhaps you think smug and condescending would attract droves of "some times disappointing" Christians to your post. How did that work for ya?

Well, you got me, but I'm twisted in that I'm attracted to militant atheists so......

I'm for gun control and for moving funds away from the military and towards schools. So I'm not sure how I'm militant.

Secular politics is where belief (O.r L.ack T.hereof) does not govern.

You mean where religious belief does not govern right?

Can you name one law we currently have that was fashioned by religious belief with which you disagree? You have made a red herring.

Gay marriage, denying women the right to contraception, 'in god we trust', abortion laws.

Also, simply because a man has a religious belief doesn't mean he will govern according to them. Atheists govern according to their beliefs, but since they reject the word "religious" to describe their beliefs, all is ok? Really?

No it is not. No one should govern according to their philosophy about the universe. I don't care whether someone has a strong position on the issue of god. However, I have a problem with someone who states and/or governs based on those beliefs, and not because they see evidence that their beliefs will benefit society.

But I have a question. You're poor at responding to questions but I'll ask anyway.

1. In the secular politics atheists tout, is the law decided by the majority?

Not necessarily. The majority can decide a large percentage of laws, but they cannot infringe upon the rights of the minority to express their beliefs. Basically, the first amendment to the US constitution covers both the right to express your beliefs, and to not express beliefs. People can make laws they want, as long as they have real reasons, and not purely religious reasons.

2.If yes, is it possible that one of those laws could be immoral?

What does immoral mean? I do not understand.

3. If no, what then decides the law if not the majority?

The majority, as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of the minority.

Thanks.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
TrueScotsman
Posts: 515
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/13/2014 11:40:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 9:57:50 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
I feel that this is one of those topics that is most misunderstood by many theists. I think this is something important to discuss, so if you have problems with secular politics, or reasons for it, please discuss below.

Secular politics is where belief (O.r L.ack T.hereof) does not govern. The government can neither restrict freedom of belief (OLT), nor can it allow one person's, or many people's beliefs (OLT) to extend over others in legislation, without cause not founded in spiritual belief (OLT).

So everytime you are angry that an atheist wants 'under god' to not be in the pledge of allegiance, they are also for your right to not have 'under no god' in the pledge, or 'in god we don't trust' on our money. Every time you see atheists protest the ten commandments being put up on a courthouse, they do it because they know that you would not want atheist tenets put up on a courthouse funded by your dollars. The next time that you see an atheist protesting religious based arguments against homosexuality in legislation, regardless of their stance on the matter, it is because you would not want us saying that because there is no god, Christians should not have holy matrimony.

I would very much enjoy hearing your thoughts, oh great and at some times disappointing masses of DDO's religious epicenter.

Technically, an atheist would simply be content with keeping God out of things entirely, and since their beliefs are all secular, there really is no complaining there.

In regards to having "One nation under God" or "In God we trust" on our money and in our pledge of allegiance, I would say I agree with you that we shouldn't probably have those.

In regards to the "religious based arguments in legislation," I definitely disagree. When voters go to cast their ballots, they should vote according to their conscience. No one should tell them that their opinion isn't valid, or the rationale behind it isn't acceptable. In effect this pragmatism basically says, "you can come to the decision making table, but leave your values at home.... oh and by the way, us seculars will bring ours."

We can't simply silence people we disagree with in a democracy, that is simply not possible. In a society where people have different ideologies and different beliefs, compromises must be made on both sides, not just one.

Our government is essentially governed not by secular ideologies, but by the PEOPLE of the United States, who are still overwhelmingly religious. If you want absolute freedom from legislation somewhat based on religious ideologies then I suggest you find a nice communist nation.
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/13/2014 7:56:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 9:57:50 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
I feel that this is one of those topics that is most misunderstood by many theists. I think this is something important to discuss, so if you have problems with secular politics, or reasons for it, please discuss below.

Secular politics is where belief (O.r L.ack T.hereof) does not govern. The government can neither restrict freedom of belief (OLT), nor can it allow one person's, or many people's beliefs (OLT) to extend over others in legislation, without cause not founded in spiritual belief (OLT).

So everytime you are angry that an atheist wants 'under god' to not be in the pledge of allegiance, they are also for your right to not have 'under no god' in the pledge, or 'in god we don't trust' on our money. Every time you see atheists protest the ten commandments being put up on a courthouse, they do it because they know that you would not want atheist tenets put up on a courthouse funded by your dollars. The next time that you see an atheist protesting religious based arguments against homosexuality in legislation, regardless of their stance on the matter, it is because you would not want us saying that because there is no god, Christians should not have holy matrimony.

I personally would be fine with scrapping the pledge entirely along with the motto on our money....


I would very much enjoy hearing your thoughts, oh great and at some times disappointing masses of DDO's religious epicenter.

LOL.
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/14/2014 2:26:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/13/2014 10:18:52 AM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 2/12/2014 6:15:39 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 1/17/2014 9:57:50 PM, Lordgrae wrote:

I would very much enjoy hearing your thoughts, oh great and at some times disappointing masses of DDO's religious epicenter.

Probably you got no Christian response because your post was smug and condescending. But that is just my opinion. Perhaps you think smug and condescending would attract droves of "some times disappointing" Christians to your post. How did that work for ya?

Well, you got me, but I'm twisted in that I'm attracted to militant atheists so......

I'm for gun control and for moving funds away from the military and towards schools. So I'm not sure how I'm militant.

You're pretty militant on this forum. But you have a right to be as, ahem, offensive as you want to be.

Secular politics is where belief (O.r L.ack T.hereof) does not govern.

You mean where religious belief does not govern right?

Can you name one law we currently have that was fashioned by religious belief with which you disagree? You have made a red herring.

Gay marriage,

Not one Gay marriage law on the books sites religion.

denying women the right to contraception,

Ditto.

'in god we trust', abortion laws.

The law of the land is that abortion is legal. Do you want it made illegal? Seems like you're simply assuming that certain laws are "fashioned" by religious beliefs.

Also, simply because a man has a religious belief doesn't mean he will govern according to them. Atheists govern according to their beliefs, but since they reject the word "religious" to describe their beliefs, all is ok? Really?

No it is not. No one should govern according to their philosophy about the universe.

Could not religious belief and philosophy about the universe sometimes be the same?

I don't care whether someone has a strong position on the issue of god. However, I have a problem with someone who states and/or governs based on those beliefs, and not because they see evidence that their beliefs will benefit society.

So you want a society where some men are persecuted because of their beliefs?

But I have a question. You're poor at responding to questions but I'll ask anyway.

1. In the secular politics atheists tout, is the law decided by the majority?

Not necessarily. The majority can decide a large percentage of laws, but they cannot infringe upon the rights of the minority to express their beliefs.

Who decides when infringement has occurred? Who says where the line is?

2.If yes, is it possible that one of those laws could be immoral?

What does immoral mean? I do not understand.

3. If no, what then decides the law if not the majority?

The majority, as long as they do not infringe upon the rights of the minority.

Who tells the majority they cannot infringe the rights of minorities? Where do the rights of minorities come from if not the majority?

You seem not to want to acknowledge morality. So I guess you don't believe there is objective morality. Yet you talk about minority rights as if they don't come from and are not validated by the majority. You are being inconsistent.

If you believe all laws come from, and are justified by the majority, then ANY law agreed upon by the majority is correct and lawful. If you do not believe this, then you must tell us from where come the laws that govern if they do not come from the majority. And you must tell us where such laws derive their authority.

Benevolence will not make up for a lack of logic.
ExsurgeDomine
Posts: 176
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/14/2014 6:56:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/13/2014 11:40:26 AM, TrueScotsman wrote:
In effect this pragmatism basically says, "you can come to the decision making table, but leave your values at home.... oh and by the way, us seculars will bring ours."

Very well put.