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PotBelliedGeek
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1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.
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Lordgrae
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1/22/2014 10:41:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Personally, I don't like Islam. I have only a few problems with Islam that I don't find as much or at all in other religions, so most of my dislike for Islam is just my dislike for most religions. (hatred of gays, proselytizing, inciting war. All of them do it except Buddhism)

Islam is only worse right now, because the West is so much more advanced. The Christian lands happened to have resources that were better for the previous age of advancement, which left us ahead. So we became more secular, and religion influenced our decisions in war less and less. So it's not that Islam is necessarily worse in the war and terrorism department, it is just that they happen to be in the best situation. They are advanced enough to have good technology, yet far enough behind in the industrial age to have the underdog hatred. If you flipped Christianity and Islam around in their locations, I think you would find us talking about Christians being the terrorists.

There are a few problems with Islam that are worse right now and need to be addressed.

1. Suppression of freedom of expression. I don't want to draw Muhammad. However, it is not the right of people to tell me I cannot, or to use violence to stop me. Your religious beliefs do not extend past you. I admit that it might be disrespectful, and I disagree with people who do it solely for the purpose of pissing people off, but the reaction is completely unjustified.

2. Suppression of women. The suppression of women under Sharia law, killing of women who were raped for not stopping it, women cannot drive, cannot be out alone, can be called a whore for showing skin, can be called a whore for looking at a man that they are not married to or related to, and cannot go to school. This is where feminism needs to focus.

3. Clashes between sects. Sunni and Shiites fighting have caused many deaths. And the split was over the succession of Caliphs that no longer exist. I have talked to some more reform Muslims, and they tell me that the differences are nothing and it is all ridiculous. It's just as bad as all the Catholic/Protestant violence that wreaked havoc in the post-feudal Europe era.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
PotBelliedGeek
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1/22/2014 10:51:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/22/2014 10:41:39 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
Personally, I don't like Islam. I have only a few problems with Islam that I don't find as much or at all in other religions, so most of my dislike for Islam is just my dislike for most religions. (hatred of gays, proselytizing, inciting war. All of them do it except Buddhism)

Islam is only worse right now, because the West is so much more advanced. The Christian lands happened to have resources that were better for the previous age of advancement, which left us ahead. So we became more secular, and religion influenced our decisions in war less and less. So it's not that Islam is necessarily worse in the war and terrorism department, it is just that they happen to be in the best situation. They are advanced enough to have good technology, yet far enough behind in the industrial age to have the underdog hatred. If you flipped Christianity and Islam around in their locations, I think you would find us talking about Christians being the terrorists.

There are a few problems with Islam that are worse right now and need to be addressed.

1. Suppression of freedom of expression. I don't want to draw Muhammad. However, it is not the right of people to tell me I cannot, or to use violence to stop me. Your religious beliefs do not extend past you. I admit that it might be disrespectful, and I disagree with people who do it solely for the purpose of pissing people off, but the reaction is completely unjustified.

I agree with you on this one.


2. Suppression of women. The suppression of women under Sharia law, killing of women who were raped for not stopping it, women cannot drive, cannot be out alone, can be called a whore for showing skin, can be called a whore for looking at a man that they are not married to or related to, and cannot go to school. This is where feminism needs to focus.

I feel like you are confusing Islamic teachings with Arab culture. Having lived in the Middle East, I agree that the situation of women is deplorable. This, however, is not actually taught in Islam.


3. Clashes between sects. Sunni and Shiites fighting have caused many deaths. And the split was over the succession of Caliphs that no longer exist. I have talked to some more reform Muslims, and they tell me that the differences are nothing and it is all ridiculous. It's just as bad as all the Catholic/Protestant violence that wreaked havoc in the post-feudal Europe era.

It is bad, and centuries old. Unfortunately it is essentially a political conflict, and it shows no sign of ending. Peace talks in Yemen just ended with the assassination of the negotiators.
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Lordgrae
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1/22/2014 11:02:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/22/2014 10:51:20 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/22/2014 10:41:39 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
I feel like you are confusing Islamic teachings with Arab culture. Having lived in the Middle East, I agree that the situation of women is deplorable. This, however, is not actually taught in Islam.

Yes, but often religion and culture blend, and it is hard to separate the two. People have a natural tendancy to connect their beliefs. That's why it is so hard to get people to question their religious (or lack thereof) convictions. It is because they tie it to all their other beliefs. When you question their belief on women, you question their belief on the creator, and vice-versa. When I question a religious person on homosexuality, i question them on their belief on taxes and their belief on the creator. That's why it is important to make sure that people can separate a specific belief from the rest of their beliefs before you try to get them to question it.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
PotBelliedGeek
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1/22/2014 11:06:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/22/2014 11:02:32 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 1/22/2014 10:51:20 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/22/2014 10:41:39 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
I feel like you are confusing Islamic teachings with Arab culture. Having lived in the Middle East, I agree that the situation of women is deplorable. This, however, is not actually taught in Islam.

Yes, but often religion and culture blend, and it is hard to separate the two. People have a natural tendancy to connect their beliefs. That's why it is so hard to get people to question their religious (or lack thereof) convictions. It is because they tie it to all their other beliefs. When you question their belief on women, you question their belief on the creator, and vice-versa. When I question a religious person on homosexuality, i question them on their belief on taxes and their belief on the creator. That's why it is important to make sure that people can separate a specific belief from the rest of their beliefs before you try to get them to question it.

Very true. I pride myself on the ability to put religious and secular thinking into two separate, unconnected spheres.
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Lordgrae
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1/22/2014 11:07:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/22/2014 11:06:19 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/22/2014 11:02:32 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 1/22/2014 10:51:20 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/22/2014 10:41:39 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
I feel like you are confusing Islamic teachings with Arab culture. Having lived in the Middle East, I agree that the situation of women is deplorable. This, however, is not actually taught in Islam.

Yes, but often religion and culture blend, and it is hard to separate the two. People have a natural tendancy to connect their beliefs. That's why it is so hard to get people to question their religious (or lack thereof) convictions. It is because they tie it to all their other beliefs. When you question their belief on women, you question their belief on the creator, and vice-versa. When I question a religious person on homosexuality, i question them on their belief on taxes and their belief on the creator. That's why it is important to make sure that people can separate a specific belief from the rest of their beliefs before you try to get them to question it.

Very true. I pride myself on the ability to put religious and secular thinking into two separate, unconnected spheres.

You are a very interesting and quite reasonable person. It was nice talking to you.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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1/22/2014 11:35:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/22/2014 10:41:39 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
Personally, I don't like Islam. I have only a few problems with Islam that I don't find as much or at all in other religions, so most of my dislike for Islam is just my dislike for most religions. (hatred of gays, proselytizing, inciting war. All of them do it except Buddhism)

All of that stuff is not really religion's fault. Some theists use religion as a justification to do those things.

And by the way, some newer religions, after seeing what older religions' followers had started doing, specifically banned those acts (e.g. Sikhism).


Islam is only worse right now, because the West is so much more advanced. The Christian lands happened to have resources that were better for the previous age of advancement, which left us ahead. So we became more secular, and religion influenced our decisions in war less and less. So it's not that Islam is necessarily worse in the war and terrorism department, it is just that they happen to be in the best situation. They are advanced enough to have good technology, yet far enough behind in the industrial age to have the underdog hatred. If you flipped Christianity and Islam around in their locations, I think you would find us talking about Christians being the terrorists.

That's right. It is all caused differences in levels of social development. Not the "evil-ness" of the religion.


There are a few problems with Islam that are worse right now and need to be addressed.

1. Suppression of freedom of expression. I don't want to draw Muhammad. However, it is not the right of people to tell me I cannot, or to use violence to stop me. Your religious beliefs do not extend past you. I admit that it might be disrespectful, and I disagree with people who do it solely for the purpose of pissing people off, but the reaction is completely unjustified.

Honestly, I don't even know why some Muslims do this. I feel like they just want an excuse to get mad or something...


2. Suppression of women. The suppression of women under Sharia law, killing of women who were raped for not stopping it, women cannot drive, cannot be out alone, can be called a whore for showing skin, can be called a whore for looking at a man that they are not married to or related to, and cannot go to school. This is where feminism needs to focus.

That has been an unfortunate element of Arab culture since long before Islam's advent. The reason feminism isn't getting to the Middle East is because too many Muslims take a literal interpretation of the Koran, a book dating back to a time period where this sort of stuff would have been acceptable in many places around the world.


3. Clashes between sects. Sunni and Shiites fighting have caused many deaths. And the split was over the succession of Caliphs that no longer exist. I have talked to some more reform Muslims, and they tell me that the differences are nothing and it is all ridiculous. It's just as bad as all the Catholic/Protestant violence that wreaked havoc in the post-feudal Europe era.

I agree. That is ridiculous. However, just like the Catholic/Protestant issues in 16th-17th century Europe, the Sunni/Shiite conflict in the Middle East is simply a political conflict fought in the name of religion.
To use your hypothetical situation, if circumstances had put the Middle East ahead rather than Europe, there would most likely still be Catholics and Protestants fighting to the death in Germany.

Islam is just as good (or bad, if you're an atheist) a religion as any other.
Illegalcombatant
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1/23/2014 3:46:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

I think their is no good reason to believe that the quran is the divine dictated communication from an all knowing, all powerful entity.

I think people can only hold this view either by being in a state of ignorance or manipulative religious indoctrination.

I think islam at it's core just like other religions is tyrannical in nature. It makes assertions which no matter how much evidence or reason to the contrary must be accepted as true.

Should we accept something as true just because it is in the Quran ? absolutely not.

And as a muslim this is where you are screwed. You can't say that to yourself, you can't say, no just because it isn't in the quran I won't believe it is true, you as a muslim can't do that now...................can you ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
PotBelliedGeek
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1/23/2014 9:53:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 3:46:31 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

I think their is no good reason to believe that the quran is the divine dictated communication from an all knowing, all powerful entity.

I think people can only hold this view either by being in a state of ignorance or manipulative religious indoctrination.

I think islam at it's core just like other religions is tyrannical in nature. It makes assertions which no matter how much evidence or reason to the contrary must be accepted as true.

Should we accept something as true just because it is in the Quran ? absolutely not.

I follow you up to this point.


And as a muslim this is where you are screwed. You can't say that to yourself, you can't say, no just because it isn't in the quran I won't believe it is true, you as a muslim can't do that now...................can you ?

I don't follow you here. Are you saying that I look at a concept and say "it is not true because it is not in the Quran", or that I say "it is not true because the Quran says it is not."

Can you clarify?
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Illegalcombatant
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1/23/2014 5:33:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:53:00 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/23/2014 3:46:31 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

I think their is no good reason to believe that the quran is the divine dictated communication from an all knowing, all powerful entity.

I think people can only hold this view either by being in a state of ignorance or manipulative religious indoctrination.

I think islam at it's core just like other religions is tyrannical in nature. It makes assertions which no matter how much evidence or reason to the contrary must be accepted as true.

Should we accept something as true just because it is in the Quran ? absolutely not.

I follow you up to this point.


And as a muslim this is where you are screwed. You can't say that to yourself, you can't say, no just because it isn't in the quran I won't believe it is true, you as a muslim can't do that now...................can you ?

I don't follow you here. Are you saying that I look at a concept and say "it is not true because it is not in the Quran", or that I say "it is not true because the Quran says it is not."

Can you clarify?

Yes, yes I can.

Quite simply, the Quran makes claims about various things, You as a muslim have to believe that whatever is claimed in the Quran is TRUE, just on the sole basis it is contained within the Quran.

Will islam and your fellow muslims allow you to utter the following statement....Yes the quran says such and such, but just because it is in the quran doesn't mean it is true, it may even be false.

Well can you as a muslim say that ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
PotBelliedGeek
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1/23/2014 5:36:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 5:33:29 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:53:00 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/23/2014 3:46:31 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

I think their is no good reason to believe that the quran is the divine dictated communication from an all knowing, all powerful entity.

I think people can only hold this view either by being in a state of ignorance or manipulative religious indoctrination.

I think islam at it's core just like other religions is tyrannical in nature. It makes assertions which no matter how much evidence or reason to the contrary must be accepted as true.

Should we accept something as true just because it is in the Quran ? absolutely not.

I follow you up to this point.


And as a muslim this is where you are screwed. You can't say that to yourself, you can't say, no just because it isn't in the quran I won't believe it is true, you as a muslim can't do that now...................can you ?

I don't follow you here. Are you saying that I look at a concept and say "it is not true because it is not in the Quran", or that I say "it is not true because the Quran says it is not."


Can you clarify?

Yes, yes I can.

Quite simply, the Quran makes claims about various things, You as a muslim have to believe that whatever is claimed in the Quran is TRUE, just on the sole basis it is contained within the Quran.

Will islam and your fellow muslims allow you to utter the following statement....Yes the quran says such and such, but just because it is in the quran doesn't mean it is true, it may even be false.

Well can you as a muslim say that ?

No I cannot.

However, if you can show me something in the Quran that is demonstrably untrue, I will rescind.
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Illegalcombatant
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1/23/2014 5:57:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 5:36:09 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/23/2014 5:33:29 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:53:00 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/23/2014 3:46:31 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

I think their is no good reason to believe that the quran is the divine dictated communication from an all knowing, all powerful entity.

I think people can only hold this view either by being in a state of ignorance or manipulative religious indoctrination.

I think islam at it's core just like other religions is tyrannical in nature. It makes assertions which no matter how much evidence or reason to the contrary must be accepted as true.

Should we accept something as true just because it is in the Quran ? absolutely not.

I follow you up to this point.


And as a muslim this is where you are screwed. You can't say that to yourself, you can't say, no just because it isn't in the quran I won't believe it is true, you as a muslim can't do that now...................can you ?

I don't follow you here. Are you saying that I look at a concept and say "it is not true because it is not in the Quran", or that I say "it is not true because the Quran says it is not."


Can you clarify?

Yes, yes I can.

Quite simply, the Quran makes claims about various things, You as a muslim have to believe that whatever is claimed in the Quran is TRUE, just on the sole basis it is contained within the Quran.

Will islam and your fellow muslims allow you to utter the following statement....Yes the quran says such and such, but just because it is in the quran doesn't mean it is true, it may even be false.

Well can you as a muslim say that ?

No I cannot.


However, if you can show me something in the Quran that is demonstrably untrue, I will rescind.

It sounds here like your implying that because something hasn't being proven to be false, therefore we are justified to believe it's true ?

I would remind you there are a near infinite amount of claims that we can come up with which have not being proven false.

May I propose to you the proposition aliens who live among us, who have disguised themselves as humans, yes even to the dna level...........those sneaky bastards.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
HPWKA
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1/23/2014 7:04:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It sounds here like your implying that because something hasn't being proven to be false, therefore we are justified to believe it's true ?

If something is neither proven to be true or untrue, a person can credibly hold that belief. He cannot however, credibly argue that his belief is superior to other beliefs. Similarly, others cannot credibly argue that this belief is necessarily false/ridiculous.

That's how I see it at least, in a sort of gray area.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Romanii
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1/23/2014 8:39:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 7:04:01 PM, HPWKA wrote:
It sounds here like your implying that because something hasn't being proven to be false, therefore we are justified to believe it's true ?

If something is neither proven to be true or untrue, a person can credibly hold that belief. He cannot however, credibly argue that his belief is superior to other beliefs. Similarly, others cannot credibly argue that this belief is necessarily false/ridiculous.

Thank you thank you thank you thank you!
All atheists and religious fundamentalists need to read that post.
Illegalcombatant
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1/23/2014 8:45:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 8:39:30 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 7:04:01 PM, HPWKA wrote:
It sounds here like your implying that because something hasn't being proven to be false, therefore we are justified to believe it's true ?

If something is neither proven to be true or untrue, a person can credibly hold that belief. He cannot however, credibly argue that his belief is superior to other beliefs. Similarly, others cannot credibly argue that this belief is necessarily false/ridiculous.

But they can argue that is it implausible. See my aliens roaming around earth in disguise example.


Thank you thank you thank you thank you!
All atheists and religious fundamentalists need to read that post.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
HPWKA
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1/23/2014 8:52:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If something is neither proven to be true or untrue, a person can credibly hold that belief. He cannot however, credibly argue that his belief is superior to other beliefs. Similarly, others cannot credibly argue that this belief is necessarily false/ridiculous.

But they can argue that is it implausible. See my aliens roaming around earth in disguise example.

Agreed, they can comment on the likelihood of said belief, based on their current understanding of how the world works. However, even "plausibility" is a slippery slope, that doesn't really mean much. Modern inventions/practices we take for granted were considered "implausible" just a generation ago.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
PotBelliedGeek
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1/23/2014 9:22:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 7:04:01 PM, HPWKA wrote:
It sounds here like your implying that because something hasn't being proven to be false, therefore we are justified to believe it's true ?

If something is neither proven to be true or untrue, a person can credibly hold that belief. He cannot however, credibly argue that his belief is superior to other beliefs. Similarly, others cannot credibly argue that this belief is necessarily false/ridiculous.

That's how I see it at least, in a sort of gray area.

Thank you. I can believe what I want, so long as I don't try to force the belief on others. This means that if I choose to believe something solely on the basis that it is in the Quran, then that is okay, so long as it is not unavoidably false. Seeing as I have yet to come anything of that sort in the Quran (which I know like the back of my hand), I see no reason I should not believe it. Just as I see no reason you should not believe that there are aliens disguised among us, until you start picketing that it should be taught in schools and/or trying to force others to believe it. If you do that, then you need plausible proof to support your claims.
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Romanii
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1/23/2014 9:27:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 8:45:50 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 8:39:30 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 7:04:01 PM, HPWKA wrote:
It sounds here like your implying that because something hasn't being proven to be false, therefore we are justified to believe it's true ?

If something is neither proven to be true or untrue, a person can credibly hold that belief. He cannot however, credibly argue that his belief is superior to other beliefs. Similarly, others cannot credibly argue that this belief is necessarily false/ridiculous.

But they can argue that is it implausible. See my aliens roaming around earth in disguise example.


Sure they can, but there are a variety of arguments proving that the existence of God IS plausible. You should check out this debate, in which an atheist, Mikal, actually argues FOR the plausibility of God's existence:

http://www.debate.org...
Leanin_on_Slick
Posts: 62
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1/24/2014 4:30:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 5:36:09 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/23/2014 5:33:29 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:53:00 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/23/2014 3:46:31 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

I think their is no good reason to believe that the quran is the divine dictated communication from an all knowing, all powerful entity.

I think people can only hold this view either by being in a state of ignorance or manipulative religious indoctrination.

I think islam at it's core just like other religions is tyrannical in nature. It makes assertions which no matter how much evidence or reason to the contrary must be accepted as true.

Should we accept something as true just because it is in the Quran ? absolutely not.

I follow you up to this point.


And as a muslim this is where you are screwed. You can't say that to yourself, you can't say, no just because it isn't in the quran I won't believe it is true, you as a muslim can't do that now...................can you ?

I don't follow you here. Are you saying that I look at a concept and say "it is not true because it is not in the Quran", or that I say "it is not true because the Quran says it is not."


Can you clarify?

Yes, yes I can.

Quite simply, the Quran makes claims about various things, You as a muslim have to believe that whatever is claimed in the Quran is TRUE, just on the sole basis it is contained within the Quran.

Will islam and your fellow muslims allow you to utter the following statement....Yes the quran says such and such, but just because it is in the quran doesn't mean it is true, it may even be false.

Well can you as a muslim say that ?

No I cannot.

However, if you can show me something in the Quran that is demonstrably untrue, I will rescind.

Not to be an a$$, but there are scientific inaccuracies in the Quran. For example the Qur'an (25:53) tells us that bodies of salt and fresh water never mix, yet we know they do: http://oceanservice.noaa.gov...
PotBelliedGeek
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1/24/2014 8:24:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 4:30:12 PM, Leanin_on_Slick wrote:
At 1/23/2014 5:36:09 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/23/2014 5:33:29 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:53:00 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/23/2014 3:46:31 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

I think their is no good reason to believe that the quran is the divine dictated communication from an all knowing, all powerful entity.

I think people can only hold this view either by being in a state of ignorance or manipulative religious indoctrination.

I think islam at it's core just like other religions is tyrannical in nature. It makes assertions which no matter how much evidence or reason to the contrary must be accepted as true.

Should we accept something as true just because it is in the Quran ? absolutely not.

I follow you up to this point.


And as a muslim this is where you are screwed. You can't say that to yourself, you can't say, no just because it isn't in the quran I won't believe it is true, you as a muslim can't do that now...................can you ?

I don't follow you here. Are you saying that I look at a concept and say "it is not true because it is not in the Quran", or that I say "it is not true because the Quran says it is not."


Can you clarify?

Yes, yes I can.

Quite simply, the Quran makes claims about various things, You as a muslim have to believe that whatever is claimed in the Quran is TRUE, just on the sole basis it is contained within the Quran.

Will islam and your fellow muslims allow you to utter the following statement....Yes the quran says such and such, but just because it is in the quran doesn't mean it is true, it may even be false.

Well can you as a muslim say that ?

No I cannot.

However, if you can show me something in the Quran that is demonstrably untrue, I will rescind.

Not to be an a$$, but there are scientific inaccuracies in the Quran. For example the Qur'an (25:53) tells us that bodies of salt and fresh water never mix, yet we know they do: http://oceanservice.noaa.gov...

This easy and simple to explain, but this forum is not for debate, so I won't get into it.
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GodChoosesLife
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1/24/2014 8:33:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

Interesting topic thread... I think some are fairly friendly but some are very harsh.. I've encountered both types... I've dealt with threats as well from Muslim's before as well.. I do not hate them nor wish any harm to them.. But I do not agree with their beliefs.. I am a Christian, so that should define me and as I know Muslim's are known to hate Christians with a bitter passion? I don't know why this is, but it is..? Correct me if I am wrong though? .. I wish all religions, Muslim's included can all agree upon one belief and stand in unity with that 1 belief, but I know better than that because it'll never happen..
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
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1/24/2014 8:42:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:33:29 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

Interesting topic thread... I think some are fairly friendly but some are very harsh.. I've encountered both types... I've dealt with threats as well from Muslim's before as well.. I do not hate them nor wish any harm to them.. But I do not agree with their beliefs.. I am a Christian, so that should define me and as I know Muslim's are known to hate Christians with a bitter passion? I don't know why this is, but it is..? Correct me if I am wrong though? .. I wish all religions, Muslim's included can all agree upon one belief and stand in unity with that 1 belief, but I know better than that because it'll never happen..

Just some clarification here. Some Muslims do hate Christians with a bitter passion. Some hate Jews, some hate atheists, some hate other Muslims, all in the name of religion. It is unfortunate that these minorities are the only representation of us in western media. At the same time, all religious have zealous hateful groups among them. We are not unique in that way. In Bosnia, Christians massacred Muslims by the thousands in the name of Jesus, in Burma Buddhists killed 42 Muslim women and children in the name of Buddhism. Al-Qaida has been carrying out attacks against Muslims for at least thirty years longer than they have been fighting the US. The point is that all religions have some groups that teach hate in its name.
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1/24/2014 8:47:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:42:34 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/24/2014 8:33:29 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

Interesting topic thread... I think some are fairly friendly but some are very harsh.. I've encountered both types... I've dealt with threats as well from Muslim's before as well.. I do not hate them nor wish any harm to them.. But I do not agree with their beliefs.. I am a Christian, so that should define me and as I know Muslim's are known to hate Christians with a bitter passion? I don't know why this is, but it is..? Correct me if I am wrong though? .. I wish all religions, Muslim's included can all agree upon one belief and stand in unity with that 1 belief, but I know better than that because it'll never happen..

Just some clarification here. Some Muslims do hate Christians with a bitter passion. Some hate Jews, some hate atheists, some hate other Muslims, all in the name of religion. It is unfortunate that these minorities are the only representation of us in western media. At the same time, all religious have zealous hateful groups among them. We are not unique in that way. In Bosnia, Christians massacred Muslims by the thousands in the name of Jesus, in Burma Buddhists killed 42 Muslim women and children in the name of Buddhism. Al-Qaida has been carrying out attacks against Muslims for at least thirty years longer than they have been fighting the US. The point is that all religions have some groups that teach hate in its name.

Yes, I won't deny that even Christians are hateful, which is very disgraceful to the Christians who are not. You speak of the Catholics that massacred the Muslims, correct?.. Catholics and Christians are controversy with each other as well.. but what you say makes sense though in all.. And I'm sorry to learn of the other things as well as for those Christians who are hateful.. (that is not a mark of a true Christian)..
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
PotBelliedGeek
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1/24/2014 8:52:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:47:48 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 1/24/2014 8:42:34 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/24/2014 8:33:29 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

Interesting topic thread... I think some are fairly friendly but some are very harsh.. I've encountered both types... I've dealt with threats as well from Muslim's before as well.. I do not hate them nor wish any harm to them.. But I do not agree with their beliefs.. I am a Christian, so that should define me and as I know Muslim's are known to hate Christians with a bitter passion? I don't know why this is, but it is..? Correct me if I am wrong though? .. I wish all religions, Muslim's included can all agree upon one belief and stand in unity with that 1 belief, but I know better than that because it'll never happen..

Just some clarification here. Some Muslims do hate Christians with a bitter passion. Some hate Jews, some hate atheists, some hate other Muslims, all in the name of religion. It is unfortunate that these minorities are the only representation of us in western media. At the same time, all religious have zealous hateful groups among them. We are not unique in that way. In Bosnia, Christians massacred Muslims by the thousands in the name of Jesus, in Burma Buddhists killed 42 Muslim women and children in the name of Buddhism. Al-Qaida has been carrying out attacks against Muslims for at least thirty years longer than they have been fighting the US. The point is that all religions have some groups that teach hate in its name.

Yes, I won't deny that even Christians are hateful, which is very disgraceful to the Christians who are not. You speak of the Catholics that massacred the Muslims, correct?.. Catholics and Christians are controversy with each other as well.. but what you say makes sense though in all.. And I'm sorry to learn of the other things as well as for those Christians who are hateful.. (that is not a mark of a true Christian)..

They were Eastern Orthodox, in Bosnia. I know very well that Christianity teaches love and kindness, I only illustrate these people to highlight the fact that one cannot judge a religion by a minority of criminals. I only ask that just I do not attribute the crimes of the people to Christianity, no one should attribute the crimes of the people to Islam.
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GodChoosesLife
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1/24/2014 8:53:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:52:08 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/24/2014 8:47:48 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 1/24/2014 8:42:34 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/24/2014 8:33:29 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

Interesting topic thread... I think some are fairly friendly but some are very harsh.. I've encountered both types... I've dealt with threats as well from Muslim's before as well.. I do not hate them nor wish any harm to them.. But I do not agree with their beliefs.. I am a Christian, so that should define me and as I know Muslim's are known to hate Christians with a bitter passion? I don't know why this is, but it is..? Correct me if I am wrong though? .. I wish all religions, Muslim's included can all agree upon one belief and stand in unity with that 1 belief, but I know better than that because it'll never happen..

Just some clarification here. Some Muslims do hate Christians with a bitter passion. Some hate Jews, some hate atheists, some hate other Muslims, all in the name of religion. It is unfortunate that these minorities are the only representation of us in western media. At the same time, all religious have zealous hateful groups among them. We are not unique in that way. In Bosnia, Christians massacred Muslims by the thousands in the name of Jesus, in Burma Buddhists killed 42 Muslim women and children in the name of Buddhism. Al-Qaida has been carrying out attacks against Muslims for at least thirty years longer than they have been fighting the US. The point is that all religions have some groups that teach hate in its name.

Yes, I won't deny that even Christians are hateful, which is very disgraceful to the Christians who are not. You speak of the Catholics that massacred the Muslims, correct?.. Catholics and Christians are controversy with each other as well.. but what you say makes sense though in all.. And I'm sorry to learn of the other things as well as for those Christians who are hateful.. (that is not a mark of a true Christian)..

They were Eastern Orthodox, in Bosnia. I know very well that Christianity teaches love and kindness, I only illustrate these people to highlight the fact that one cannot judge a religion by a minority of criminals. I only ask that just I do not attribute the crimes of the people to Christianity, no one should attribute the crimes of the people to Islam.

Ahh, I see... Well, I understand your point then..
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
Leanin_on_Slick
Posts: 62
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1/24/2014 11:32:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:24:30 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/24/2014 4:30:12 PM, Leanin_on_Slick wrote:
At 1/23/2014 5:36:09 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/23/2014 5:33:29 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:53:00 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 1/23/2014 3:46:31 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/22/2014 9:30:23 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
As a Muslim in post 9-11 America, I experience bigotry and hatred on a daily basis. After finding this website, I post a few poll aimed at figuring out the general opinion on DDO. This forum is dedicated for discussion of those opinions. What to you think about Islam and why?

Please note that this is not an attempt at religious propaganda. This is solely for the purpose of discussion.

I think their is no good reason to believe that the quran is the divine dictated communication from an all knowing, all powerful entity.

I think people can only hold this view either by being in a state of ignorance or manipulative religious indoctrination.

I think islam at it's core just like other religions is tyrannical in nature. It makes assertions which no matter how much evidence or reason to the contrary must be accepted as true.

Should we accept something as true just because it is in the Quran ? absolutely not.

I follow you up to this point.


And as a muslim this is where you are screwed. You can't say that to yourself, you can't say, no just because it isn't in the quran I won't believe it is true, you as a muslim can't do that now...................can you ?

I don't follow you here. Are you saying that I look at a concept and say "it is not true because it is not in the Quran", or that I say "it is not true because the Quran says it is not."


Can you clarify?

Yes, yes I can.

Quite simply, the Quran makes claims about various things, You as a muslim have to believe that whatever is claimed in the Quran is TRUE, just on the sole basis it is contained within the Quran.

Will islam and your fellow muslims allow you to utter the following statement....Yes the quran says such and such, but just because it is in the quran doesn't mean it is true, it may even be false.

Well can you as a muslim say that ?

No I cannot.

However, if you can show me something in the Quran that is demonstrably untrue, I will rescind.

Not to be an a$$, but there are scientific inaccuracies in the Quran. For example the Qur'an (25:53) tells us that bodies of salt and fresh water never mix, yet we know they do: http://oceanservice.noaa.gov...

This easy and simple to explain, but this forum is not for debate, so I won't get into it.

Ok cool. Seems like a pretty clear cut example tho.
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1/25/2014 2:54:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 4:30:12 PM, Leanin_on_Slick wrote:

Not to be an a$$, but there are scientific inaccuracies in the Quran. For example the Qur'an (25:53) tells us that bodies of salt and fresh water never mix, yet we know they do: http://oceanservice.noaa.gov...

All the inaccuracies are taken from translations !! because it's deficiencies in the translations , and some people don't even take the time to check weather Quran really says that in Arabic, they're just too happy the found something !

Sorry to cut your happiness but Quran doesn't speak about any bodies in that verse ?!!! do you think people in that time were idiots ?! the verse speaks about the two adjacent seas that people didn't know about in that area, one salted sea and one sweet sea that don't mix ( or more precisely no sea overtake the other)

The video is about the exact instance, and please if you want to criticise the Quran learn Arabic first, otherwise know that you are criticising a translation and all translations of the Quran are flawed.
Leanin_on_Slick
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1/25/2014 4:53:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 2:54:55 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 1/24/2014 4:30:12 PM, Leanin_on_Slick wrote:

Not to be an a$$, but there are scientific inaccuracies in the Quran. For example the Qur'an (25:53) tells us that bodies of salt and fresh water never mix, yet we know they do: http://oceanservice.noaa.gov...

All the inaccuracies are taken from translations !! because it's deficiencies in the translations , and some people don't even take the time to check weather Quran really says that in Arabic, they're just too happy the found something !

Sorry to cut your happiness but Quran doesn't speak about any bodies in that verse ?!!! do you think people in that time were idiots ?! the verse speaks about the two adjacent seas that people didn't know about in that area, one salted sea and one sweet sea that don't mix ( or more precisely no sea overtake the other)

The video is about the exact instance, and please if you want to criticise the Quran learn Arabic first, otherwise know that you are criticising a translation and all translations of the Quran are flawed.



There is a place near Alaska like that as well. However, they do mix.
http://www.alaskadispatch.com...
Fruitytree
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1/26/2014 6:43:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 4:53:16 PM, Leanin_on_Slick wrote:
At 1/25/2014 2:54:55 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 1/24/2014 4:30:12 PM, Leanin_on_Slick wrote:

Not to be an a$$, but there are scientific inaccuracies in the Quran. For example the Qur'an (25:53) tells us that bodies of salt and fresh water never mix, yet we know they do: http://oceanservice.noaa.gov...

All the inaccuracies are taken from translations !! because it's deficiencies in the translations , and some people don't even take the time to check weather Quran really says that in Arabic, they're just too happy the found something !

Sorry to cut your happiness but Quran doesn't speak about any bodies in that verse ?!!! do you think people in that time were idiots ?! the verse speaks about the two adjacent seas that people didn't know about in that area, one salted sea and one sweet sea that don't mix ( or more precisely no sea overtake the other)

The video is about the exact instance, and please if you want to criticise the Quran learn Arabic first, otherwise know that you are criticising a translation and all translations of the Quran are flawed.



There is a place near Alaska like that as well. However, they do mix.
http://www.alaskadispatch.com...

The mixing is all expected and natural, the non mixing is the miracle. and the verse is not speaking about all seas, but about one instance as it doesn't say "seas" it says "THE two seas" and describes the taste of both, at that time people didn't know what the verses were referring to, until this was discovered and known later.
bulproof
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1/26/2014 6:56:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/26/2014 6:43:25 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 1/25/2014 4:53:16 PM, Leanin_on_Slick wrote:
At 1/25/2014 2:54:55 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 1/24/2014 4:30:12 PM, Leanin_on_Slick wrote:

Not to be an a$$, but there are scientific inaccuracies in the Quran. For example the Qur'an (25:53) tells us that bodies of salt and fresh water never mix, yet we know they do: http://oceanservice.noaa.gov...

All the inaccuracies are taken from translations !! because it's deficiencies in the translations , and some people don't even take the time to check weather Quran really says that in Arabic, they're just too happy the found something !

Sorry to cut your happiness but Quran doesn't speak about any bodies in that verse ?!!! do you think people in that time were idiots ?! the verse speaks about the two adjacent seas that people didn't know about in that area, one salted sea and one sweet sea that don't mix ( or more precisely no sea overtake the other)

The video is about the exact instance, and please if you want to criticise the Quran learn Arabic first, otherwise know that you are criticising a translation and all translations of the Quran are flawed.



There is a place near Alaska like that as well. However, they do mix.
http://www.alaskadispatch.com...

The mixing is all expected and natural, the non mixing is the miracle. and the verse is not speaking about all seas, but about one instance as it doesn't say "seas" it says "THE two seas" and describes the taste of both, at that time people didn't know what the verses were referring to, until this was discovered and known later.

"AT THAT TIME" actually answers all of the ridiculous muhammads claims. Ancient suspicious ignorant camel traders would believe that stuff.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin