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Atheists need to be open minded....

Illegalcombatant
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1/23/2014 9:14:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
A complaint that Christians and other God believers make is how the atheists or at least some are closed minded.

Atheists don't even consider the possibility that their is more outside of our universe.....

Atheists just discount any miracle claim cause they just assume miracles can't happen

Atheists won't believe in any divine revelation since they assume that no God exists in the first place. etc etc

Shouldn't we all be open minded ? after all, what's the alternative being closed minded.

But here is the thing, being open minded is a two way street, how many Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to the following.....

The miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, they are false hoods.

Faith healing does not happen, faith healing works just by counting all the hits and ignoring all the misses as oh well wasn't Gods will. (This trick works for ALL Gods by the way)

The bible/quran/whatever book is not book from a divine intelligence but rather man made.

Life on our planet is not the result of some intended plan but rather a result of naturalistic causation that happened absent intent.

That the reason God doesn't didn't stop the torture of a child who has their limbs cut off isn't because some divine decision was made not too, but rather cause there was no such divine decision making happening in the first place.

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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1/23/2014 9:19:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:14:39 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A complaint that Christians and other God believers make is how the atheists or at least some are closed minded.

Atheists don't even consider the possibility that their is more outside of our universe.....

Atheists just discount any miracle claim cause they just assume miracles can't happen

Atheists won't believe in any divine revelation since they assume that no God exists in the first place. etc etc

Shouldn't we all be open minded ? after all, what's the alternative being closed minded.

But here is the thing, being open minded is a two way street, how many Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to the following.....

The miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, they are false hoods.

Faith healing does not happen, faith healing works just by counting all the hits and ignoring all the misses as oh well wasn't Gods will. (This trick works for ALL Gods by the way)

The bible/quran/whatever book is not book from a divine intelligence but rather man made.

Life on our planet is not the result of some intended plan but rather a result of naturalistic causation that happened absent intent.

That the reason God doesn't didn't stop the torture of a child who has their limbs cut off isn't because some divine decision was made not too, but rather cause there was no such divine decision making happening in the first place.

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

A lot of Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to these suggestions. Do you have a point?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/23/2014 9:33:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:19:59 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:14:39 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A complaint that Christians and other God believers make is how the atheists or at least some are closed minded.

Atheists don't even consider the possibility that their is more outside of our universe.....

Atheists just discount any miracle claim cause they just assume miracles can't happen

Atheists won't believe in any divine revelation since they assume that no God exists in the first place. etc etc

Shouldn't we all be open minded ? after all, what's the alternative being closed minded.

But here is the thing, being open minded is a two way street, how many Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to the following.....

The miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, they are false hoods.

Faith healing does not happen, faith healing works just by counting all the hits and ignoring all the misses as oh well wasn't Gods will. (This trick works for ALL Gods by the way)

The bible/quran/whatever book is not book from a divine intelligence but rather man made.

Life on our planet is not the result of some intended plan but rather a result of naturalistic causation that happened absent intent.

That the reason God doesn't didn't stop the torture of a child who has their limbs cut off isn't because some divine decision was made not too, but rather cause there was no such divine decision making happening in the first place.

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

A lot of Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to these suggestions. Do you have a point?

Yes, yes I do, thanks for asking.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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1/23/2014 9:36:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:14:39 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A complaint that Christians and other God believers make is how the atheists or at least some are closed minded.

Atheists don't even consider the possibility that their is more outside of our universe.....

Atheists just discount any miracle claim cause they just assume miracles can't happen

Atheists won't believe in any divine revelation since they assume that no God exists in the first place. etc etc

Shouldn't we all be open minded ? after all, what's the alternative being closed minded.

But here is the thing, being open minded is a two way street, how many Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to the following.....

The miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, they are false hoods.

Faith healing does not happen, faith healing works just by counting all the hits and ignoring all the misses as oh well wasn't Gods will. (This trick works for ALL Gods by the way)

The bible/quran/whatever book is not book from a divine intelligence but rather man made.

Life on our planet is not the result of some intended plan but rather a result of naturalistic causation that happened absent intent.

That the reason God doesn't didn't stop the torture of a child who has their limbs cut off isn't because some divine decision was made not too, but rather cause there was no such divine decision making happening in the first place.


Many theists are open to all of these ideas...

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

I'm personally willing to consider any of these if valid evidence is given for them...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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1/23/2014 9:41:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:33:28 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:19:59 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:14:39 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A complaint that Christians and other God believers make is how the atheists or at least some are closed minded.

Atheists don't even consider the possibility that their is more outside of our universe.....

Atheists just discount any miracle claim cause they just assume miracles can't happen

Atheists won't believe in any divine revelation since they assume that no God exists in the first place. etc etc

Shouldn't we all be open minded ? after all, what's the alternative being closed minded.

But here is the thing, being open minded is a two way street, how many Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to the following.....

The miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, they are false hoods.

Faith healing does not happen, faith healing works just by counting all the hits and ignoring all the misses as oh well wasn't Gods will. (This trick works for ALL Gods by the way)

The bible/quran/whatever book is not book from a divine intelligence but rather man made.

Life on our planet is not the result of some intended plan but rather a result of naturalistic causation that happened absent intent.

That the reason God doesn't didn't stop the torture of a child who has their limbs cut off isn't because some divine decision was made not too, but rather cause there was no such divine decision making happening in the first place.

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

A lot of Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to these suggestions. Do you have a point?

Yes, yes I do, thanks for asking.

What's your point?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/23/2014 9:42:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:41:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:33:28 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:19:59 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:14:39 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A complaint that Christians and other God believers make is how the atheists or at least some are closed minded.

Atheists don't even consider the possibility that their is more outside of our universe.....

Atheists just discount any miracle claim cause they just assume miracles can't happen

Atheists won't believe in any divine revelation since they assume that no God exists in the first place. etc etc

Shouldn't we all be open minded ? after all, what's the alternative being closed minded.

But here is the thing, being open minded is a two way street, how many Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to the following.....

The miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, they are false hoods.

Faith healing does not happen, faith healing works just by counting all the hits and ignoring all the misses as oh well wasn't Gods will. (This trick works for ALL Gods by the way)

The bible/quran/whatever book is not book from a divine intelligence but rather man made.

Life on our planet is not the result of some intended plan but rather a result of naturalistic causation that happened absent intent.

That the reason God doesn't didn't stop the torture of a child who has their limbs cut off isn't because some divine decision was made not too, but rather cause there was no such divine decision making happening in the first place.

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

A lot of Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to these suggestions. Do you have a point?

Yes, yes I do, thanks for asking.

What's your point?

Oh I am getting onto something, I think it would be more fun if you sat there and try to figure it out smart guy.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/23/2014 9:43:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:36:25 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:14:39 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A complaint that Christians and other God believers make is how the atheists or at least some are closed minded.

Atheists don't even consider the possibility that their is more outside of our universe.....

Atheists just discount any miracle claim cause they just assume miracles can't happen

Atheists won't believe in any divine revelation since they assume that no God exists in the first place. etc etc

Shouldn't we all be open minded ? after all, what's the alternative being closed minded.

But here is the thing, being open minded is a two way street, how many Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to the following.....

The miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, they are false hoods.

Faith healing does not happen, faith healing works just by counting all the hits and ignoring all the misses as oh well wasn't Gods will. (This trick works for ALL Gods by the way)

The bible/quran/whatever book is not book from a divine intelligence but rather man made.

Life on our planet is not the result of some intended plan but rather a result of naturalistic causation that happened absent intent.

That the reason God doesn't didn't stop the torture of a child who has their limbs cut off isn't because some divine decision was made not too, but rather cause there was no such divine decision making happening in the first place.


Many theists are open to all of these ideas...

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

I'm personally willing to consider any of these if valid evidence is given for them...

Let's take faith healing. How do you prove that it is a false ? all you can do is point out is has not being shown to work and the rationalizations need to overcome this.

Is that enough for you in your opinion, or would you expect more ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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1/23/2014 9:44:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:43:35 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:36:25 PM, Romanii wrote:

Many theists are open to all of these ideas...

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

I'm personally willing to consider any of these if valid evidence is given for them...

Let's take faith healing. How do you prove that it is a false ? all you can do is point out is has not being shown to work and the rationalizations need to overcome this.

Is that enough for you in your opinion, or would you expect more ?

I don't believe in faith healing...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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1/23/2014 9:46:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:42:19 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:41:20 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:33:28 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:19:59 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:14:39 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A complaint that Christians and other God believers make is how the atheists or at least some are closed minded.

Atheists don't even consider the possibility that their is more outside of our universe.....

Atheists just discount any miracle claim cause they just assume miracles can't happen

Atheists won't believe in any divine revelation since they assume that no God exists in the first place. etc etc

Shouldn't we all be open minded ? after all, what's the alternative being closed minded.

But here is the thing, being open minded is a two way street, how many Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to the following.....

The miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, they are false hoods.

Faith healing does not happen, faith healing works just by counting all the hits and ignoring all the misses as oh well wasn't Gods will. (This trick works for ALL Gods by the way)

The bible/quran/whatever book is not book from a divine intelligence but rather man made.

Life on our planet is not the result of some intended plan but rather a result of naturalistic causation that happened absent intent.

That the reason God doesn't didn't stop the torture of a child who has their limbs cut off isn't because some divine decision was made not too, but rather cause there was no such divine decision making happening in the first place.

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

A lot of Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to these suggestions. Do you have a point?

Yes, yes I do, thanks for asking.

What's your point?

Oh I am getting onto something, I think it would be more fun if you sat there and try to figure it out smart guy.

Not particularly fun, nor do I have the time nor do I feel inclined to do so. So peace out.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/23/2014 9:47:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:44:56 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:43:35 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:36:25 PM, Romanii wrote:

Many theists are open to all of these ideas...

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

I'm personally willing to consider any of these if valid evidence is given for them...

Let's take faith healing. How do you prove that it is a false ? all you can do is point out is has not being shown to work and the rationalizations need to overcome this.

Is that enough for you in your opinion, or would you expect more ?

I don't believe in faith healing...

What about the claim about an all powerful, all knowing God who although could stop the child having their limbs cut off..........CHOOSES not too. Chooses not to stop the limbs cut off as well as choosing not to restore them (remeber we are talking about an all powerful God here)

Is it enough to point out that their is no such evidence of divine decision making happening or would you expect more ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
dvande28
Posts: 32
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1/23/2014 9:53:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'll let Richard Dawkins answer this for me.

"So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thoughts it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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1/23/2014 9:54:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:47:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:44:56 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:43:35 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:36:25 PM, Romanii wrote:

Many theists are open to all of these ideas...

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

I'm personally willing to consider any of these if valid evidence is given for them...

Let's take faith healing. How do you prove that it is a false ? all you can do is point out is has not being shown to work and the rationalizations need to overcome this.

Is that enough for you in your opinion, or would you expect more ?

I don't believe in faith healing...

What about the claim about an all powerful, all knowing God who although could stop the child having their limbs cut off..........CHOOSES not too. Chooses not to stop the limbs cut off as well as choosing not to restore them (remeber we are talking about an all powerful God here)

All evil is man-made. It is not God's job to stop man from committing evil acts.


Is it enough to point out that their is no such evidence of divine decision making happening or would you expect more ?

I've had spiritual experiences which have convinced me that God exists.
I don't believe any empirical evidence for him is there.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/23/2014 10:09:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:54:24 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:47:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:44:56 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:43:35 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:36:25 PM, Romanii wrote:

Many theists are open to all of these ideas...

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

I'm personally willing to consider any of these if valid evidence is given for them...

Let's take faith healing. How do you prove that it is a false ? all you can do is point out is has not being shown to work and the rationalizations need to overcome this.

Is that enough for you in your opinion, or would you expect more ?

I don't believe in faith healing...

What about the claim about an all powerful, all knowing God who although could stop the child having their limbs cut off..........CHOOSES not too. Chooses not to stop the limbs cut off as well as choosing not to restore them (remeber we are talking about an all powerful God here)

All evil is man-made. It is not God's job to stop man from committing evil acts.

And isn't that just a rationlisation to try and reconcile God with the evidence ?

And about the failure to restore those limbs ?



Is it enough to point out that their is no such evidence of divine decision making happening or would you expect more ?

I've had spiritual experiences which have convinced me that God exists.

A spiritual experience that confirms an all powerful God that doesn't retore the limbs of children who have had them cut off ?

I don't believe any empirical evidence for him is there.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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1/23/2014 10:21:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:47:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:44:56 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:43:35 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:36:25 PM, Romanii wrote:

Many theists are open to all of these ideas...

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

I'm personally willing to consider any of these if valid evidence is given for them...

Let's take faith healing. How do you prove that it is a false ? all you can do is point out is has not being shown to work and the rationalizations need to overcome this.

Is that enough for you in your opinion, or would you expect more ?

I don't believe in faith healing...

What about the claim about an all powerful, all knowing God who although could stop the child having their limbs cut off..........CHOOSES not too. Chooses not to stop the limbs cut off as well as choosing not to restore them (remeber we are talking about an all powerful God here)

Is it enough to point out that their is no such evidence of divine decision making happening or would you expect more ?

There's plenty of evidence of divine decision making.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org...
en.wikipedia.org/resurrection_of_jesus
en.wikipedia.org/weak_anthropic_principle

You just reject it because your favorite atheist preacher screams about how it's not real evidence to them.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/23/2014 10:27:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 10:21:17 PM, Installgentoo wrote:


You just reject it because your favorite atheist preacher screams about how it's not real evidence to them.

I know right ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
dvande28
Posts: 32
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1/23/2014 11:52:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Ok, let just go each of William Lane Craig's supposed proofs.

1. Cosmological Argument from Contingency

1. Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.
2. If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.
3. The universe exists.
4. Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence (from 1, 3).
5. Therefore, the explanation of the universe"s existence is God (from 2, 4).

Premise 1 is just a flat out lie.
His explanation for why Premise 2 is true is a straw man argument, as there could still be a natural explanation for the existence of the universe.

2. The Kalam Cosmological Argument

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Again, premise 1 is a lie.
Also, still no evidence as to why the existence of the universe has to be supernatural.
Also, special pleading for God.

3. Moral Argument for God

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2. Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists.

Premise 2 is another lie.

4. The Teleological Argument from Fine-Tuning

1. The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2. It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3. Therefore, it is due to design.

My issue is with Premise 2. Why not by chance? Here's a response to the argument by Richard Carrier.

"Similarly the "fine tuning" of the universe"s physical constants: that would be a great proof"if it wasn"t exactly the same thing we"d see if a god didn"t exist. If there is no god, we will only ever find ourselves in a universe finely tuned (in that case, by random chance), because without a god, there is no other kind of universe that can produce us. Likewise, a universe that produced us by chance would have to be enormously vast in size and enormously old, so as to have all the room to mix countless chemicals countless times in countless places so as to have any chance of accidentally kicking up something as complex as life. And that"s exactly the universe we see: one enormously vast in size and age. A godless universe would also only produce life rarely and sparingly, and that"s also what we see: by far most of the universe is lethal to life (being a deadly radiation filled vacuum) and by far most of the matter in the universe is lethal to life (constituting stars and black holes on which no life can ever live). Again, all exactly what we"d expect of a godless universe. Not what we"d expect of a god-made one."
Thus, we have exactly the universe we"d expect to have if there is no god. Whereas a god does not need vast trillions of star systems and billions of years to make life. He doesn"t need vast quantities of lethal space and deadly matter. Only a godless universe needs that. I make a more detailed survey of this kind of evidence in "Neither Life Nor the Universe Appear Intelligently Designed" in John Loftus"s The End of Christianity. It also does no good to say such a random accidental universe is improbable, because the convenient existence of a marvelously "super-omni" god is just as improbable. Either way you are assuming some amazing luck. Which leaves the evidence. And the evidence is just way more probable if there"s no god. Thus, we"re forced to choose between which lucky accident it was, and the evidence confirms the one and not the other."

5. The Ontological Argument from the Possibility of God"s Existence to His Actuality

It is possible that a maximally great being does not exist.
If it is possible that a maximally great being does not exist, then a maximally great being does not exist in some possible world.
If a maximally great being does not exist in some possible world, then it does not exist in every possible world.
If a maximally great being does not exist in every possible world, then it does not exist in the actual world.
If a maximally great being does not exist in the actual world, then a maximally great being does not exist.
Therefore, a maximally great being does not exist.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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1/24/2014 12:41:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 10:09:30 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:54:24 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:47:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:44:56 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:43:35 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:36:25 PM, Romanii wrote:

Many theists are open to all of these ideas...

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

I'm personally willing to consider any of these if valid evidence is given for them...

Let's take faith healing. How do you prove that it is a false ? all you can do is point out is has not being shown to work and the rationalizations need to overcome this.

Is that enough for you in your opinion, or would you expect more ?

I don't believe in faith healing...

What about the claim about an all powerful, all knowing God who although could stop the child having their limbs cut off..........CHOOSES not too. Chooses not to stop the limbs cut off as well as choosing not to restore them (remeber we are talking about an all powerful God here)

All evil is man-made. It is not God's job to stop man from committing evil acts.

And isn't that just a rationlisation to try and reconcile God with the evidence ?

And about the failure to restore those limbs ?



Is it enough to point out that their is no such evidence of divine decision making happening or would you expect more ?

I've had spiritual experiences which have convinced me that God exists.

A spiritual experience that confirms an all powerful God that doesn't retore the limbs of children who have had them cut off ?

I don't believe any empirical evidence for him is there.

There are countless angles on arguments like this. Why did the US spend billions to develop nuclear weapons and then drop two of them on Japan? The answer is that it ostensibly actually saved more lives and suffering than it caused, and it's actually a viable argument given the results of Okinawa. But did that make it good? The US also insisted on flying daylight bombing-missions against Germany in order to lessen civilian casualties, despite the increase in casualties that resulted to its own pilots and planes. Sometimes every being is forced to make choices which they believe will result in the greater good, no matter how cruel it seems at the time, or how much it will cost to another or to oneself. And in this case we're speaking of the lack of interference, not interfering to purposely cause the resultant suffering.
mrsatan
Posts: 428
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1/24/2014 1:15:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Many atheists are open minded, and many atheists aren't. The same is true for theists. You might as well say everyone should be open minded, and depending on what you mean by open minded, I may or may not agree.

If you mean that we should all listen to what others have to say with intent to understand, and then apply our own reasoning and experiences to determine whether we accept or reject it, I would agree. Many people do not do this, and it really is a shame.

Beyond that, if you also mean we should keep in mind that we may have erred in our reasoning, coming to a false conclusion, I would still agree.

But we all draw conclusions and become, at least to some degree, set in those conclusions. The simple truth is that, unless you bring concrete proof of your position to the table, it is unreasonable of you to expect the other side to abandon their position in favor of yours.

The dilemma for both theists and "strong" atheists is that neither side has any concrete proof to to bring to the table. Both sides have theories and arguments, but all of it is conjecture. Is there anything beyond our the observable Universe? Hell if I know... It's not observable.

I consider myself an atheist because, while I do consider the existence of a god or gods to be a possibility, I have not found sufficient reason to believe it is actually the case.

The way I see it, in order to put my faith in God, I must first believe God exists. But, since God is the only one who can provide me with sufficient reason to believe he/she/it exists, and such reason has not been provided, I am left with only two possible conclusions. That God either doesn't exist, or doesn't really care whether or not I believe he/she/it exists.

Feel free to disagree.
To say one has free will, to have chosen other than they did, is to say they have will over their will... Will over the will they have over their will... Will over the will they have over the will they have over their will, etc... It's utter nonsense.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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1/24/2014 2:25:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 12:41:31 AM, Idealist wrote:

There are countless angles on arguments like this. Why did the US spend billions to develop nuclear weapons and then drop two of them on Japan? The answer is that it ostensibly actually saved more lives and suffering than it caused, and it's actually a viable argument given the results of Okinawa. But did that make it good? The US also insisted on flying daylight bombing-missions against Germany in order to lessen civilian casualties, despite the increase in casualties that resulted to its own pilots and planes. Sometimes every being is forced to make choices which they believe will result in the greater good, no matter how cruel it seems at the time, or how much it will cost to another or to oneself. And in this case we're speaking of the lack of interference, not interfering to purposely cause the resultant suffering.

That's the greater good argument. God allows such and such.............for the greater good.

That's a very generous assumption to grant isn't it ? we are talking about an all powerful, all knowing God, yet he can't get this greater good unless the child with their eyes ripped out is allowed to live the rest of their life blind.

Here is the problem if such a God did not exist then it would be necessary in a world of suffering such as child rape/torture what ever to invoke such a rationalization such as not interference for the greater good.

Should we believe that is the world we live in ? Are you so generous with such assumptions when it comes to other propositions ? I doubt it.

At what point can we just say, nope just an excuse, game over. At what point ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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1/24/2014 8:26:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:53:40 PM, dvande28 wrote:
I'll let Richard Dawkins answer this for me.

"So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thoughts it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

You should tell this to Richard Dawkins:

How many sightings have there been of fairies?
Now, how many "sightings" have there been of God?

You'll notice that the population of people with claims to seeing fairies is not only very small, but also mostly consisting of children and mental patients.

You'll notice that the population of people with claims to "seeing" God (aka spiritual experiences) roughly consists of billions of perfectly sane people around the world and throughout history.

Dawkins is a bigot, whose book I read mainly for laughs.
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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1/24/2014 8:37:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 10:09:30 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:54:24 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:47:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:.

What about the claim about an all powerful, all knowing God who although could stop the child having their limbs cut off..........CHOOSES not too. Chooses not to stop the limbs cut off as well as choosing not to restore them (remeber we are talking about an all powerful God here)

All evil is man-made. It is not God's job to stop man from committing evil acts.

And isn't that just a rationlisation to try and reconcile God with the evidence ?

You're arguing from a different paradigm than me, which is why it seems like that.

For me God almost certainly exists, and I'm trying to use logic and reasoning to explain his acts and true nature.
For you God almost certainly does not exist, and I'm simply reconciling the concept of God with the evidence.

Is it enough to point out that their is no such evidence of divine decision making happening or would you expect more ?

I've had spiritual experiences which have convinced me that God exists.

A spiritual experience that confirms an all powerful God that doesn't retore the limbs of children who have had them cut off ?

You assume that God plays an interventionist role in the universe, as he is portrayed in the Bible. However, he is not really that way, and allows us to deal with the results of our own actions.

Also, you forget about the afterlife. I don't know anything for sure, but innocent children who have suffered in the materialistic world could be rewarded in the world hereafter.
Of course, as an atheist, you probably find that ridiculous, and honestly, I'm not too sure what to think of the afterlife either, but it's a possibility.
Andrew6591
Posts: 17
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1/24/2014 8:40:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:26:37 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:53:40 PM, dvande28 wrote:
I'll let Richard Dawkins answer this for me.

"So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thoughts it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

You should tell this to Richard Dawkins:

How many sightings have there been of fairies?
Now, how many "sightings" have there been of God?

You'll notice that the population of people with claims to seeing fairies is not only very small, but also mostly consisting of children and mental patients.

You'll notice that the population of people with claims to "seeing" God (aka spiritual experiences) roughly consists of billions of perfectly sane people around the world and throughout history.

Dawkins is a bigot, whose book I read mainly for laughs.

What a ridiculous comment! 'Dawkins a bigot' is also on par with how ignorant you sound. You trying to compare sightings of two things that although i believe aren't real, are on two different scales. The idea of god is constantly around us, in books, sculptures, paintings, the news etc so of course more people are going to claim to have seen it/him/her. Claiming to have seen god gives them credibility at a time they most need it.
Andrew6591
Posts: 17
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1/24/2014 8:43:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:37:48 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 10:09:30 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:54:24 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:47:20 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:.

What about the claim about an all powerful, all knowing God who although could stop the child having their limbs cut off..........CHOOSES not too. Chooses not to stop the limbs cut off as well as choosing not to restore them (remeber we are talking about an all powerful God here)

All evil is man-made. It is not God's job to stop man from committing evil acts.

And isn't that just a rationlisation to try and reconcile God with the evidence ?

You're arguing from a different paradigm than me, which is why it seems like that.

For me God almost certainly exists, and I'm trying to use logic and reasoning to explain his acts and true nature.

what logic and reasoning do you have for gods actions and true nature?

For you God almost certainly does not exist, and I'm simply reconciling the concept of God with the evidence.

Is it enough to point out that their is no such evidence of divine decision making happening or would you expect more ?

I've had spiritual experiences which have convinced me that God exists.

A spiritual experience that confirms an all powerful God that doesn't retore the limbs of children who have had them cut off ?

You assume that God plays an interventionist role in the universe, as he is portrayed in the Bible. However, he is not really that way, and allows us to deal with the results of our own actions.

Also, you forget about the afterlife. I don't know anything for sure, but innocent children who have suffered in the materialistic world could be rewarded in the world hereafter.
Of course, as an atheist, you probably find that ridiculous, and honestly, I'm not too sure what to think of the afterlife either, but it's a possibility.
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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1/24/2014 8:48:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:40:29 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 8:26:37 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:53:40 PM, dvande28 wrote:
I'll let Richard Dawkins answer this for me.

"So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thoughts it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

You should tell this to Richard Dawkins:

How many sightings have there been of fairies?
Now, how many "sightings" have there been of God?

You'll notice that the population of people with claims to seeing fairies is not only very small, but also mostly consisting of children and mental patients.

You'll notice that the population of people with claims to "seeing" God (aka spiritual experiences) roughly consists of billions of perfectly sane people around the world and throughout history.

Dawkins is a bigot, whose book I read mainly for laughs.

What a ridiculous comment! 'Dawkins a bigot' is also on par with how ignorant you sound.

Dawkins IS a bigot. He seriously seems to think that religious people are ignorant for believing in God, despite the fact that many of them have perfectly valid personal reasons for doing so.

You trying to compare sightings of two things that although i believe aren't real, are on two different scales.

I'm not trying to convince you that God exists. I'm simply trying to show that believing in God isn't nearly as ridiculous as Dawkins makes it out to be.

The idea of god is constantly around us, in books, sculptures, paintings, the news etc so of course more people are going to claim to have seen it/him/her. Claiming to have seen god gives them credibility at a time they most need it.

Basically, what you're saying is... because God is so ingrained in our culture, all sightings of him must be false....
Very logical.
dvande28
Posts: 32
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1/24/2014 9:00:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Millions of children believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and the Easter Bunny. I am not close minded for not believing in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, God, or anybody else's imaginary friend, if there is no evidence.
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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1/24/2014 9:04:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:48:33 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/24/2014 8:40:29 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 8:26:37 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:53:40 PM, dvande28 wrote:
I'll let Richard Dawkins answer this for me.

"So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thoughts it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

You should tell this to Richard Dawkins:

How many sightings have there been of fairies?
Now, how many "sightings" have there been of God?

You'll notice that the population of people with claims to seeing fairies is not only very small, but also mostly consisting of children and mental patients.

You'll notice that the population of people with claims to "seeing" God (aka spiritual experiences) roughly consists of billions of perfectly sane people around the world and throughout history.

Dawkins is a bigot, whose book I read mainly for laughs.

What a ridiculous comment! 'Dawkins a bigot' is also on par with how ignorant you sound.

Dawkins IS a bigot. He seriously seems to think that religious people are ignorant for believing in God, despite the fact that many of them have perfectly valid personal reasons for doing so.

You trying to compare sightings of two things that although i believe aren't real, are on two different scales.

I'm not trying to convince you that God exists. I'm simply trying to show that believing in God isn't nearly as ridiculous as Dawkins makes it out to be.

The idea of god is constantly around us, in books, sculptures, paintings, the news etc so of course more people are going to claim to have seen it/him/her. Claiming to have seen god gives them credibility at a time they most need it.

Basically, what you're saying is... because God is so ingrained in our culture, all sightings of him must be false....
Very logical.
bulproof
Posts: 25,247
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1/24/2014 9:07:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 9:00:18 AM, dvande28 wrote:
Millions of children believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, and the Easter Bunny. I am not close minded for not believing in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, God, or anybody else's imaginary friend, if there is no evidence.

THIS
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Andrew6591
Posts: 17
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1/24/2014 9:10:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:48:33 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/24/2014 8:40:29 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 8:26:37 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 1/23/2014 9:53:40 PM, dvande28 wrote:
I'll let Richard Dawkins answer this for me.

"So it is best to keep an open mind and be agnostic. At first sight that seems an unassailable position, at least in the weak sense of Pascal's wager. But on second thoughts it seems a cop-out, because the same could be said of Father Christmas and tooth fairies. There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

You should tell this to Richard Dawkins:

How many sightings have there been of fairies?
Now, how many "sightings" have there been of God?

You'll notice that the population of people with claims to seeing fairies is not only very small, but also mostly consisting of children and mental patients.

You'll notice that the population of people with claims to "seeing" God (aka spiritual experiences) roughly consists of billions of perfectly sane people around the world and throughout history.

Dawkins is a bigot, whose book I read mainly for laughs.

What a ridiculous comment! 'Dawkins a bigot' is also on par with how ignorant you sound.

Dawkins IS a bigot. He seriously seems to think that religious people are ignorant for believing in God, despite the fact that many of them have perfectly valid personal reasons for doing so.


He certainly listens to other opinions and takes their comments on board, providing a serious and often unprejudiced response to the claims that they make; you constantly hear him say that he cannot prove god either exists or doesn't. It tends more to such strong beliefs in god that they can be detrimental, it is not merely the belief in god for personal reasons that is the problem, it is the actions that people take and reflect from those beliefs.

You trying to compare sightings of two things that although i believe aren't real, are on two different scales.

I'm not trying to convince you that God exists. I'm simply trying to show that believing in God isn't nearly as ridiculous as Dawkins makes it out to be.


Neither am i trying to convince you that he doesn't because that's an argument that has no end...yet

The idea of god is constantly around us, in books, sculptures, paintings, the news etc so of course more people are going to claim to have seen it/him/her. Claiming to have seen god gives them credibility at a time they most need it.

Basically, what you're saying is... because God is so ingrained in our culture, all sightings of him must be false....
Very logical.

That's not what i said...I mentioned that god is a subject that is constant;y in the public eye, and therefore, compared to fairies which are not, sightings of god are obviously going to be much more common. you seem to think it's therefore logical that people (billions) might claim to have seen god, yet there is no evidence? God certainly sounds like a ridiculous explanation for things that cannot be explained.
LAZARUS77
Posts: 109
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1/24/2014 9:15:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
https://www.youtube.com...
No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he desires for himself. - Prophet Muhammad saw
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/24/2014 9:18:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/23/2014 9:14:39 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
A complaint that Christians and other God believers make is how the atheists or at least some are closed minded.

Atheists don't even consider the possibility that their is more outside of our universe.....

Atheists just discount any miracle claim cause they just assume miracles can't happen

Atheists won't believe in any divine revelation since they assume that no God exists in the first place. etc etc

Shouldn't we all be open minded ? after all, what's the alternative being closed minded.

But here is the thing, being open minded is a two way street, how many Christians/Muslims can honestly say they are open minded to the following.....

The miracles attributed to Jesus did not occur, they are false hoods.

Faith healing does not happen, faith healing works just by counting all the hits and ignoring all the misses as oh well wasn't Gods will. (This trick works for ALL Gods by the way)

The bible/quran/whatever book is not book from a divine intelligence but rather man made.

Life on our planet is not the result of some intended plan but rather a result of naturalistic causation that happened absent intent.

That the reason God doesn't didn't stop the torture of a child who has their limbs cut off isn't because some divine decision was made not too, but rather cause there was no such divine decision making happening in the first place.

How open minded are you.......................... seriously ?

If you're so open minded, then tell me how our bodies were made.