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Is faith mere belief?

MadCornishBiker
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1/24/2014 12:14:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I guess that depends on whose definition you go by.

I prefer, in this as in other things to stick to the Bibles definition found in Hebrews 11.

If you read that chapter you will understand that Faith in God's terms, is much much more than a mere belief.

As James puts it in 2:19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.

The demons believe, but if they had really had faith, such as Abraham had Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac"the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son" 18 although it had been said to him: "What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac." 19 But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way.

That is so much more than mere belief, it is complete faith thyat God's promises, in this case about Isaac will come true, hence somehow Isaac will live, even if Abraham did not understand how.

That is why Jesus could say what he said at John 17:3. If you truly make the effort to know God, and his son, as Abraham so obviously did, then you will have the basis in knowledge to make your faith infinitely stronger than mere belief, as my faith in God and Christ is.

Like Abraham's, unshakable.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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1/24/2014 7:00:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Biblically, belief is faith, and faith is belief. The two are synonyms. There is no difference in "I believe in God" vs "I have faith in God".
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Andrew6591
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1/24/2014 7:20:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:00:55 AM, annanicole wrote:
Biblically, belief is faith, and faith is belief. The two are synonyms. There is no difference in "I believe in God" vs "I have faith in God".

I think i would tend to disagree. Many people do believe in god but many of those do not have faith in him.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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1/24/2014 7:27:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:20:51 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 7:00:55 AM, annanicole wrote:
Biblically, belief is faith, and faith is belief. The two are synonyms. There is no difference in "I believe in God" vs "I have faith in God".

I think i would tend to disagree. Many people do believe in god but many of those do not have faith in him.
Apparently (say many) so did up to 1/3rd of the Story book heavenly angels, hence humans are not isolated in their scepticism and distrust of Story book god(s).

Imagine that?

Up to 1/3rd of the heavenly appointed angels had no confidence in the god that appointed them?
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/24/2014 9:58:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 12:14:49 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
I guess that depends on whose definition you go by.

I prefer, in this as in other things to stick to the Bibles definition found in Hebrews 11.

If you read that chapter you will understand that Faith in God's terms, is much much more than a mere belief.

As James puts it in 2:19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.

The demons believe, but if they had really had faith, such as Abraham had Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac"the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son" 18 although it had been said to him: "What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac." 19 But he reasoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead, and he did receive him from there in an illustrative way.

That is so much more than mere belief, it is complete faith thyat God's promises, in this case about Isaac will come true, hence somehow Isaac will live, even if Abraham did not understand how.

That is why Jesus could say what he said at John 17:3. If you truly make the effort to know God, and his son, as Abraham so obviously did, then you will have the basis in knowledge to make your faith infinitely stronger than mere belief, as my faith in God and Christ is.

Like Abraham's, unshakable.

Faith means that a prophet or a saint knows our Creator who comes into his mind to give commandments to obey and write or speak the words that our Creator puts in his mind.

Belief means that a chosen believer will listen to the saint or prophet speak for our Creator and believe them.

Faith is something that a saint knows for sure. He no longer has to believe in a Supreme Creator because he knows and obeys His commands.

Belief is something that God gives to a believer who listens to His Voice spoken through His prophets and saints.

Unbelief is something that God gives to an unbeliever who rejects His Voice spoken by His prophets and saints.
bornofgod
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1/24/2014 9:58:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:00:55 AM, annanicole wrote:
Biblically, belief is faith, and faith is belief. The two are synonyms. There is no difference in "I believe in God" vs "I have faith in God".

Read my post above and learn the difference, Anna.
annanicole
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1/24/2014 12:32:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 9:58:41 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/24/2014 7:00:55 AM, annanicole wrote:
Biblically, belief is faith, and faith is belief. The two are synonyms. There is no difference in "I believe in God" vs "I have faith in God".

Read my post above and learn the difference, Anna.

Learn that they are both the same word, borno. No difference at all

Repeat. "Belief" and "Faith" are the SAME WORD.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bornofgod
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1/24/2014 12:53:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 12:32:20 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/24/2014 9:58:41 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/24/2014 7:00:55 AM, annanicole wrote:
Biblically, belief is faith, and faith is belief. The two are synonyms. There is no difference in "I believe in God" vs "I have faith in God".

Read my post above and learn the difference, Anna.

Learn that they are both the same word, borno. No difference at all

Repeat. "Belief" and "Faith" are the SAME WORD.

Christians who believe have no "faith" that us prophets and saints were given to us by our Creator. Believers are chosen by God to listen to our ( prophets and saints ) testimonies and believe some of the things we talk about.

No Jew had the "faith" that Abraham, Israel, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Jesus, Peter, Paul, or Timothy had. They either believed their testimonies or they didn't.

Most Christians cannot believe the words I speak because they weren't chosen by our Creator to listen to me. They were made unbelievers who reject His Voice. They have no "faith" at all.

Some Christians have come to listen to me preach the gospel and believed some of the things I was telling them. They have no "faith" in God but they believe in the words I speak because of my faith that God gave me on December 8th, 1979.

Belief and faith have two very different meanings.
annanicole
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1/24/2014 12:58:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
borno: "Belief and faith have two very different meanings."

Anna: Really? Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two.

Let everyone take note. Borno won't do it! No way in Hades he'll do it. He may type ten paragraphs about "this flesh" and "us saints", but bear in mind: he won't do it. We all know why!
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/24/2014 1:12:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 12:58:32 PM, annanicole wrote:
borno: "Belief and faith have two very different meanings."

Anna: Really? Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two.

Let everyone take note. Borno won't do it! No way in Hades he'll do it. He may type ten paragraphs about "this flesh" and "us saints", but bear in mind: he won't do it. We all know why!

English speaking Christians think they know a language spoken by the early prophets and saints. They don't realize how much language changes over time. Try reading English that was spoken in the year 1,000 a.d. , Anna, and learn how much language changes.

So even if I did understand spoken and written Greek today, I would still know that "faith" and "belief" are two totally different words with different meanings. The Greek antichrists had no idea what the difference was between these two words, either. That's because none of them knew what "faith" meant. They could only believe or not believe the spoken Word by us saints and prophets who are the only people to know what "faith" really means.
annanicole
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1/24/2014 1:13:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 1:12:40 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/24/2014 12:58:32 PM, annanicole wrote:
borno: "Belief and faith have two very different meanings."

Anna: Really? Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two.

Let everyone take note. Borno won't do it! No way in Hades he'll do it. He may type ten paragraphs about "this flesh" and "us saints", but bear in mind: he won't do it. We all know why!

English speaking Christians think they know a language spoken by the early prophets and saints. They don't realize how much language changes over time. Try reading English that was spoken in the year 1,000 a.d. , Anna, and learn how much language changes.

So even if I did understand spoken and written Greek today, I would still know that "faith" and "belief" are two totally different words with different meanings. The Greek antichrists had no idea what the difference was between these two words, either. That's because none of them knew what "faith" meant. They could only believe or not believe the spoken Word by us saints and prophets who are the only people to know what "faith" really means.

Told ya
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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1/24/2014 1:15:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Mark one for Anna:

"Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two."

My words were, "He won't do it".

I may turn into a prophet yet.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
bornofgod
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1/24/2014 1:16:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 1:13:50 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:12:40 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/24/2014 12:58:32 PM, annanicole wrote:
borno: "Belief and faith have two very different meanings."

Anna: Really? Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two.

Let everyone take note. Borno won't do it! No way in Hades he'll do it. He may type ten paragraphs about "this flesh" and "us saints", but bear in mind: he won't do it. We all know why!

English speaking Christians think they know a language spoken by the early prophets and saints. They don't realize how much language changes over time. Try reading English that was spoken in the year 1,000 a.d. , Anna, and learn how much language changes.

So even if I did understand spoken and written Greek today, I would still know that "faith" and "belief" are two totally different words with different meanings. The Greek antichrists had no idea what the difference was between these two words, either. That's because none of them knew what "faith" meant. They could only believe or not believe the spoken Word by us saints and prophets who are the only people to know what "faith" really means.

Told ya

Here's something I found on the internet;

Here is some English "as written in the southwest of England about the year 1000":

F"der ure "u "e eart on heofonum si "in nama gehalgod tobecume "in rice gewur"e "in willa on eor"an swa swa on heofonum urne ged"ghwamlican hlaf syle us to d"g and forgyf us ure gyltas swa swa we forgyfa" urum gyltendum and ne gel"d "u us on costnunge ac alys us of yfele so"lice.

This appears in the introduction of my 1989 Webster's Unabridged Dictionary and fortunately I was able to cut and paste it from a web site.

If you read it out loud several times you might recognize it; most people living in Western cultures have heard the modern version.
Here's a spooky version of it spoken aloud with a lot of echo and reverb:
;

Another version, but less dramatic:
;

I do not understand 1000 year old English, so I doubt a modern day English speaker would have been understood 1000 years ago.
As Charles D noted, the original Beowulf is a completely different language! (Old English)

I wonder what Greek would have been like 2,000 years ago or older?
bornofgod
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1/24/2014 1:18:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 1:15:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
Mark one for Anna:

"Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two."

My words were, "He won't do it".

I may turn into a prophet yet.

It's obvious you didn't read my post and learn about how languages change.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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1/24/2014 1:43:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 1:18:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:15:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
Mark one for Anna:

"Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two."

My words were, "He won't do it".

I may turn into a prophet yet.

It's obvious you didn't read my post and learn about how languages change.

Borno, I do not care how much languages change as long as we have lexicons/dictionaries that give us the meanings of 2,000-year-old words in today's English. You can pick up a Thayer's or Liddell/Scott or Vines and find out EXACTLY how certain words were used 2,000 years ago. And as it turns out, "belief" and "faith" were the same thing, translated from the same word.

"The devils believe and tremble" could have just as well been translated "The devils have faith and tremble". Biblically, there is no difference in the two.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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1/24/2014 7:13:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In olden days medical terms and the causes of diseases were unknown. Most illness, especially insanity, was attributed to evil spirits or demons. The Aramaic text refers to sick men and women, some mentally afflicted and others paralytic or lame, who were healed by the apostle Philip. It was these who cried with loud voices and gave thanks, and not the evil spirits. . .

George M. Lamsa New Testament Light (Philadelphia: A. J.Holman, 1945), p. 58.

&

The geographical distribution of demon possession in the NT

Demon possession in the Gospel accounts is not a geographically-uniform phenomenon. Specific cases of demon possession in the synoptics occur in regional clusters, always in northern regions such as Galilee, rather than occurring throughout every location in which Christ traveled and performed healings. Conversely, there are no descriptions of demon possession in Judea or Jerusalem in the four Gospel accounts. Moreover, there are several quantitative summaries of demon possession in Galilee and the northern regions that imply demon possession was a common and even characteristic phenomenon in this area. No comparable quantitative statements for the Judean area are found in the Gospel records. Finally, certain ostensibly physical pathological conditions, such as blindness, deafness and muteness are sometimes attributed to demon possession in the north, but are never so characterized in the south, even though descriptions of these conditions do occur in texts commenting on the Judean ministry.

This pattern strongly suggests that putative cases of demon possession in the Gospel and other NT accounts are positively related to local belief. In other words, where local folk belief encouraged or allowed for belief in demons, cases of possession exist -- often in large groupings. Where such belief was not taught or even discouraged, cases of demon possession are severely reduced or even non-existent. This unmistakable pattern in the NT has profound implications for assessing the reality of personal, malevolent demons in the NT period. This striking pattern cannot be adequately explained by recourse to the argument that demons are fallen angels ruled by Satan (which are by definition not geographically-restricted beings) and intent on attacking Christ and his ministry, in which case the distribution of demonic activity would be expected to be uniform, or even close to uniform, in all locales. (Composer's Source: http://www.christadelphianbooks.org...)

So the ' trembling demons ' was the geographically localised name given to mentally sick people who ' often trembled/agitated ' at the thought of being made public or private spectacles of abuse & ridicule, for the amusement of others!
MadCornishBiker
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1/24/2014 7:23:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:00:55 AM, annanicole wrote:
Biblically, belief is faith, and faith is belief. The two are synonyms. There is no difference in "I believe in God" vs "I have faith in God".

Again you rely on human definition rather than scriptural.

As James said, the Demons believe in God, and shudder, but do they really have faith in Him?

Obviously not or they would have remained faithful like the other Angels did.

Belief is just that and nothing more. We can believe whatever we like and it will have no effect on our lives.

But if you have even a basic grasp of what scripture teaches, and you do claim to understand it (????), why else would you be so dogmatic about it, you would know that what Jesus and the Apostles spoke of as Faith is something much more than that, much stronger.

It is the force that prompted Abraham to obey in preparing to sacrifice his son, because he knew God well enough to know that all the promises concerning Isaac had to come true, and for that Isaac had to survive somehow.

It is the force that gave Jesus the faith to take on his role as Messiah and suffer what he did in full trust in his father.

It was faith that made certain that Stephen could face his death with courage and magnanimity, holding no grudge against those who stoned him.

No, if you knew the first thing about God and Christ you would know that there is a whole world of difference between "I believe in God" and "I have faith in God".

In fact you are the living proof of that.

You believe in God, but when his word contradicts what you prefer to believe, then you dismiss his word, or deny the true meaning of it.

You believe in God, but when he says "don't put your trust in either men or yourself" you ignore him.

That is why I can put Faith in scripture, because I can see accurate the fulfilment of scripture all around me, which allows me to go way beyond mere belief.

That is why I can put a limited amount of faith in the JWs. Because I can compare everything they teach to God's word, and believe in them as long as they agree with it.

That is why God and Christ grant me the assistance of holy spirit, because I know them at least well enough to put 100% of trust in their words and promises.

because you do none of the above you are not granted the assistance to understand scripture properly, you are not given God's wisdom, because you don't have faith that he will supply it on demand (James 1:5-8) and as needed,

In fact so weak is your belief in God's word that you cannot even use the word "demand" in that context, where I know God well enough to know that a request for something he wants to give you is every bit as strong as a demand.

To you the bible is history, dead history, nothing to do with today.

To me it is living history, affecting today, tomorrow and on into eternity. Happening as we live and breathe.

Call me mad, call me stupid, I don't care. I know that as long as I put such faith in him and his son as I do God calls me friend, and that is all I care about.

Everyone should strive to be God's friend. It's what he wants us to do, practically begs us to do, and the rewards are unbelievable.

That is faith, as scripture describes it, and goes way, a very long way, beyond belief.

You have admitted so much more about yourself in those few lines of post than you would ever want people to know, or even believe yourself.

For a start you have just proven to all those who have the faintest idea of scripture that you are prepared to argue with, and insult, people over something that you know so little about that you don;t even know what Faith really is in God's eyes.

Try it sometime. As Jesus said, it brings much greater rewards than the approval of men ever can.
MadCornishBiker
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1/24/2014 7:37:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:27:39 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/24/2014 7:20:51 AM, Andrew6591 wrote:
At 1/24/2014 7:00:55 AM, annanicole wrote:
Biblically, belief is faith, and faith is belief. The two are synonyms. There is no difference in "I believe in God" vs "I have faith in God".

I think i would tend to disagree. Many people do believe in god but many of those do not have faith in him.
Apparently (say many) so did up to 1/3rd of the Story book heavenly angels, hence humans are not isolated in their scepticism and distrust of Story book god(s).

Imagine that?

Up to 1/3rd of the heavenly appointed angels had no confidence in the god that appointed them?

And that surprises you because?

After all, they were all given free will.

However, 2/3rd were intelligent enough to see past the stupidity of those who chose, as you do, to believe Satan.

Imagine that? No, you can't because you have made the same mistakes as that 1/3rd you are so proud of did.

Just think. That is probably the only time in history when the majority (2/3rds) got it right!

And you have the brass-bound nerve, and stupidity to call a book so honest as to admit a high "failure rate", albeit only a short term one, and the need to prove itself as a fairy story.

No, the failure is not with God, it is with those wicked spirit creatures who, like so many humans, you foremost amongst them, who think they know better than the greatest intellect that the universe will ever see.

Yours is the fairy story, the "madness" I support is the true reality.

funny shown the truly deluded can never see their own delusion isn't it, and yes I know that applies to me, but one day you will realise that it is you who is truly deluded, and why you allowed yourself to be so deluded.

That truly is arrogance.

I at least have realised not only how little I know, or can possibly know, how stupid not only I, but all of humanity are in comparison, as well as how much I need to rely on the one who truly does know it all, God, to understand anything that really matters.

Time you woke up to your designed in human weaknesses that you cannot avoid, any more than the rest of us can.
MadCornishBiker
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1/24/2014 7:43:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:23:36 PM, Composer wrote:
Belief & faith are synonymous -

Matt. 17:20 demonstrates why!


In fact it demonstrates the exact opposite. It shows how much more power faith has than mere belief.

Your knowledge if scripture, poor as it is, outweighs your ability, or desire, to understand it 1,000 fold.
MadCornishBiker
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1/24/2014 7:48:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 12:32:20 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/24/2014 9:58:41 AM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/24/2014 7:00:55 AM, annanicole wrote:
Biblically, belief is faith, and faith is belief. The two are synonyms. There is no difference in "I believe in God" vs "I have faith in God".

Read my post above and learn the difference, Anna.

Learn that they are both the same word, borno. No difference at all

Repeat. "Belief" and "Faith" are the SAME WORD.

They aren't even s[pelt the same.

Again you ignore what scripture says about the difference and follow man's dictionaries instead. You constantly demonstrate my main criticism of you to be true,and the one thing that stops you having any real understanding of what you claim to understand so well.

It is no wonder you have belief but no faith.
MadCornishBiker
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1/24/2014 7:50:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 12:58:32 PM, annanicole wrote:
borno: "Belief and faith have two very different meanings."

Anna: Really? Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two.

Let everyone take note. Borno won't do it! No way in Hades he'll do it. He may type ten paragraphs about "this flesh" and "us saints", but bear in mind: he won't do it. We all know why!

Again, you refuse to acknowledge what scripture says about faith and stick to man's word above God's.

This thread is about how God feels about the difference, not how man in his comparative ignorance thinks.

You will never get any understanding of scripture until you learn to understand things God's way.
MadCornishBiker
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1/24/2014 7:52:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 1:13:50 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:12:40 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/24/2014 12:58:32 PM, annanicole wrote:
borno: "Belief and faith have two very different meanings."

Anna: Really? Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two.

Let everyone take note. Borno won't do it! No way in Hades he'll do it. He may type ten paragraphs about "this flesh" and "us saints", but bear in mind: he won't do it. We all know why!

English speaking Christians think they know a language spoken by the early prophets and saints. They don't realize how much language changes over time. Try reading English that was spoken in the year 1,000 a.d. , Anna, and learn how much language changes.

So even if I did understand spoken and written Greek today, I would still know that "faith" and "belief" are two totally different words with different meanings. The Greek antichrists had no idea what the difference was between these two words, either. That's because none of them knew what "faith" meant. They could only believe or not believe the spoken Word by us saints and prophets who are the only people to know what "faith" really means.

Told ya

The only thing you tell anyone Anna is how much you prefer man's word to God's. Simple as.
MadCornishBiker
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1/24/2014 7:55:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 1:18:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:15:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
Mark one for Anna:

"Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two."

My words were, "He won't do it".

I may turn into a prophet yet.

It's obvious you didn't read my post and learn about how languages change.

You forget, Anna is only interested in how Anna sees things, how God sees them is immaterial to her.

Good grief, there is something we almost agree on. Wow mark it up on the calendar quick, it probably won;t happen again.
MadCornishBiker
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1/24/2014 8:00:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 1:43:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:18:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:15:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
Mark one for Anna:

"Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two."

My words were, "He won't do it".

I may turn into a prophet yet.

It's obvious you didn't read my post and learn about how languages change.

Borno, I do not care how much languages change as long as we have lexicons/dictionaries that give us the meanings of 2,000-year-old words in today's English. You can pick up a Thayer's or Liddell/Scott or Vines and find out EXACTLY how certain words were used 2,000 years ago. And as it turns out, "belief" and "faith" were the same thing, translated from the same word.

"The devils believe and tremble" could have just as well been translated "The devils have faith and tremble". Biblically, there is no difference in the two.

No Anna it could not.

If they had possessed faith they would not have become demons, but they put their faith in Satan's lies instead.

And that despite the fact that they not only believe oin God but know him personally.

Just like Adam who knew and believed in God, btu did not have the faith to rely on him to sort out teh problem, even though it would have been in God's own interest to do so.

Bit like you really, you believe in God, but as I have shown hundreds of times by now you have little or no faith in him.

They might be the same thing in man's dictionaries, but in God's eyes they are so obviously two very different aspects of the same thing. Faith goes infinitely further than mere belief ever could
MadCornishBiker
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1/24/2014 8:06:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:13:21 PM, Composer wrote:
In olden days medical terms and the causes of diseases were unknown. Most illness, especially insanity, was attributed to evil spirits or demons. The Aramaic text refers to sick men and women, some mentally afflicted and others paralytic or lame, who were healed by the apostle Philip. It was these who cried with loud voices and gave thanks, and not the evil spirits. . .

George M. Lamsa New Testament Light (Philadelphia: A. J.Holman, 1945), p. 58.

&

The geographical distribution of demon possession in the NT

Demon possession in the Gospel accounts is not a geographically-uniform phenomenon. Specific cases of demon possession in the synoptics occur in regional clusters, always in northern regions such as Galilee, rather than occurring throughout every location in which Christ traveled and performed healings. Conversely, there are no descriptions of demon possession in Judea or Jerusalem in the four Gospel accounts. Moreover, there are several quantitative summaries of demon possession in Galilee and the northern regions that imply demon possession was a common and even characteristic phenomenon in this area. No comparable quantitative statements for the Judean area are found in the Gospel records. Finally, certain ostensibly physical pathological conditions, such as blindness, deafness and muteness are sometimes attributed to demon possession in the north, but are never so characterized in the south, even though descriptions of these conditions do occur in texts commenting on the Judean ministry.

This pattern strongly suggests that putative cases of demon possession in the Gospel and other NT accounts are positively related to local belief. In other words, where local folk belief encouraged or allowed for belief in demons, cases of possession exist -- often in large groupings. Where such belief was not taught or even discouraged, cases of demon possession are severely reduced or even non-existent. This unmistakable pattern in the NT has profound implications for assessing the reality of personal, malevolent demons in the NT period. This striking pattern cannot be adequately explained by recourse to the argument that demons are fallen angels ruled by Satan (which are by definition not geographically-restricted beings) and intent on attacking Christ and his ministry, in which case the distribution of demonic activity would be expected to be uniform, or even close to uniform, in all locales. (Composer's Source: http://www.christadelphianbooks.org...)

So the ' trembling demons ' was the geographically localised name given to mentally sick people who ' often trembled/agitated ' at the thought of being made public or private spectacles of abuse & ridicule, for the amusement of others!

Yes, in many ways those ancient people knew more than we do, and the way we are treating the earth and climate today demonstrates that perfectly.

I know what demon influence and possession really are, been there, done that, got the T shirt, thrown it away with the rest of the rubbish.

Fortunately I was protected from full possession, probably because God remembered my prayers as a child, but i can tell the difference between mental illness, which after all is purely physical affects on the brain, and demon activity. Something you will never be allowed to do since you are too fully under it, and useful to Satan for his purposes.
Composer
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1/24/2014 9:49:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:00:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:43:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:18:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:15:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
Mark one for Anna:

"Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two."

My words were, "He won't do it".

I may turn into a prophet yet.

It's obvious you didn't read my post and learn about how languages change.

Borno, I do not care how much languages change as long as we have lexicons/dictionaries that give us the meanings of 2,000-year-old words in today's English. You can pick up a Thayer's or Liddell/Scott or Vines and find out EXACTLY how certain words were used 2,000 years ago. And as it turns out, "belief" and "faith" were the same thing, translated from the same word.

"The devils believe and tremble" could have just as well been translated "The devils have faith and tremble". Biblically, there is no difference in the two.

No Anna it could not.

If they had possessed faith they would not have become demons, but they put their faith in Satan's lies instead.

And that despite the fact that they not only believe oin God but know him personally.

Just like Adam who knew and believed in God, btu did not have the faith to rely on him to sort out teh problem, even though it would have been in God's own interest to do so.

Bit like you really, you believe in God, but as I have shown hundreds of times by now you have little or no faith in him.

They might be the same thing in man's dictionaries, but in God's eyes they are so obviously two very different aspects of the same thing. Faith goes infinitely further than mere belief ever could

You have yet to legitimately demonstrate that a fallen angel(s) is not a reference to a human messenger(s) that fell from their position because of corruption etc?

You remain as always a proven defeated psychotic buffoon!
annanicole
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1/24/2014 9:52:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 7:23:28 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/24/2014 7:00:55 AM, annanicole wrote:
Biblically, belief is faith, and faith is belief. The two are synonyms. There is no difference in "I believe in God" vs "I have faith in God".

Again you rely on human definition rather than scriptural.

Human definitions and scriptural definitions are the same.

As James said, the Demons believe in God, and shudder, but do they really have faith in Him?

Yep, they are one and the same thing, both translated from the same word.

Obviously not or they would have remained faithful like the other Angels did.

Huh?

Belief is just that and nothing more. We can believe whatever we like and it will have no effect on our lives.

Repeat: they are both the same thing

But if you have even a basic grasp of what scripture teaches, and you do claim to understand it (????), why else would you be so dogmatic about it, you would know that what Jesus and the Apostles spoke of as Faith is something much more than that, much stronger.

Where? The Bible says that belief (faith) is the substance of things not seen, etc.

It is the force that prompted Abraham to obey in preparing to sacrifice his son, because he knew God well enough to know that all the promises concerning Isaac had to come true, and for that Isaac had to survive somehow.

Yes, "pisteuo" was that force

It is the force that gave Jesus the faith to take on his role as Messiah and suffer what he did in full trust in his father.

It was faith that made certain that Stephen could face his death with courage and magnanimity, holding no grudge against those who stoned him.

No, if you knew the first thing about God and Christ you would know that there is a whole world of difference between "I believe in God" and "I have faith in God".

Explain it then. What's the difference in saying "I pisteuo God" and "I pisteuo God".

In fact you are the living proof of that.

I am living proof that pisteuo means pisteuo.

I can end your entire quibble:

Translate "pepisteuka" for us. If you say it is translated, "I have believed", I'll say it's "I have had faith". If you say it is "I have had faith", I'll say "I have believed."

Unfortunately for you, you are making a distinction that simply is not there in the New Testament, no matter how you slice it.

Anyway, translate the phrase for us, and I guarantee that I'll find an instance of the opposite. By the way, you may find the word in I Tim 1: 12, if that helps. I doubt anything will help.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Composer
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1/24/2014 9:53:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:06:38 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/24/2014 7:13:21 PM, Composer wrote:
In olden days medical terms and the causes of diseases were unknown. Most illness, especially insanity, was attributed to evil spirits or demons. The Aramaic text refers to sick men and women, some mentally afflicted and others paralytic or lame, who were healed by the apostle Philip. It was these who cried with loud voices and gave thanks, and not the evil spirits. . .

George M. Lamsa New Testament Light (Philadelphia: A. J.Holman, 1945), p. 58.

&

The geographical distribution of demon possession in the NT

Demon possession in the Gospel accounts is not a geographically-uniform phenomenon. Specific cases of demon possession in the synoptics occur in regional clusters, always in northern regions such as Galilee, rather than occurring throughout every location in which Christ traveled and performed healings. Conversely, there are no descriptions of demon possession in Judea or Jerusalem in the four Gospel accounts. Moreover, there are several quantitative summaries of demon possession in Galilee and the northern regions that imply demon possession was a common and even characteristic phenomenon in this area. No comparable quantitative statements for the Judean area are found in the Gospel records. Finally, certain ostensibly physical pathological conditions, such as blindness, deafness and muteness are sometimes attributed to demon possession in the north, but are never so characterized in the south, even though descriptions of these conditions do occur in texts commenting on the Judean ministry.

This pattern strongly suggests that putative cases of demon possession in the Gospel and other NT accounts are positively related to local belief. In other words, where local folk belief encouraged or allowed for belief in demons, cases of possession exist -- often in large groupings. Where such belief was not taught or even discouraged, cases of demon possession are severely reduced or even non-existent. This unmistakable pattern in the NT has profound implications for assessing the reality of personal, malevolent demons in the NT period. This striking pattern cannot be adequately explained by recourse to the argument that demons are fallen angels ruled by Satan (which are by definition not geographically-restricted beings) and intent on attacking Christ and his ministry, in which case the distribution of demonic activity would be expected to be uniform, or even close to uniform, in all locales. (Composer's Source: http://www.christadelphianbooks.org...)

So the ' trembling demons ' was the geographically localised name given to mentally sick people who ' often trembled/agitated ' at the thought of being made public or private spectacles of abuse & ridicule, for the amusement of others!

Yes, in many ways those ancient people knew more than we do, and the way we are treating the earth and climate today demonstrates that perfectly.

I know what demon influence and possession really are, been there, done that, got the T shirt, thrown it away with the rest of the rubbish.

Fortunately I was protected from full possession, probably because God remembered my prayers as a child, but i can tell the difference between mental illness, which after all is purely physical affects on the brain, and demon activity. Something you will never be allowed to do since you are too fully under it, and useful to Satan for his purposes.
Oh do tell us about your literal demonic experiences?

Then show us the unambiguous evidence?
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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1/24/2014 9:59:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/24/2014 8:00:43 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:43:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:18:31 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/24/2014 1:15:33 PM, annanicole wrote:
Mark one for Anna:

"Give is the Greek word translated "belief". Now turn around and give us the Greek word translated "faith". Explain the difference between the two."

My words were, "He won't do it".

I may turn into a prophet yet.

It's obvious you didn't read my post and learn about how languages change.

Borno, I do not care how much languages change as long as we have lexicons/dictionaries that give us the meanings of 2,000-year-old words in today's English. You can pick up a Thayer's or Liddell/Scott or Vines and find out EXACTLY how certain words were used 2,000 years ago. And as it turns out, "belief" and "faith" were the same thing, translated from the same word.

"The devils believe and tremble" could have just as well been translated "The devils have faith and tremble". Biblically, there is no difference in the two.

No Anna it could not.

If they had possessed faith they would not have become demons, but they put their faith in Satan's lies instead.

And that despite the fact that they not only believe oin God but know him personally.

Just like Adam who knew and believed in God, btu did not have the faith to rely on him to sort out teh problem, even though it would have been in God's own interest to do so.

Bit like you really, you believe in God, but as I have shown hundreds of times by now you have little or no faith in him.

They might be the same thing in man's dictionaries, but in God's eyes they are so obviously two very different aspects of the same thing. Faith goes infinitely further than mere belief ever could

What a tard! What the boy is doing is alluding to the fact ... hedging ... that he's reasonable sure that when the apostles used the word (pistis, pisteuo) it meant either "belief" or "faith". He knows that. What he's getting ready to do is to assert a distinction and call it "God's definition", i. e. he's about to make something up that's not there.

Look the word up. That'll be my suggestion. I believe you'll find that pistis/pisteuo are the same thing.

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (kjv)

"Because of this, in fact, I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, because I know the one in whom my faith is set and I am convinced that he is able to protect what has been entrusted to me until that day." (NET Bible)

Which one is correct, MadCornish? You've made the distinction for us. Repudiate either the KJV or NET on II Tim 1: 12.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."