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Does Jesus ever claim to be God..

Skepticalone
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1/25/2014 9:59:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
..or the son of God in the Bible? Messiah means "anointed one", but it does not mean "God". Also, other people call him "God" in one fashion or another, and he does not correct them, but he never says specifically, "I am God". Thoughts?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
R0b1Billion
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1/25/2014 10:24:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
A lot of what's in the Bible is subject to legendary embellishment. People didn't live for hundreds of years, walk on water, etc. We know this because it's physically impossible.

Now that doesn't mean there isn't some really good, ultimately good (even) material in the Bible to read. The story of Cain and Abel is very enlightening, and Jesus's lessons are, accurately enough as he described, the only way to achieve happiness and if you don't comprehend them then you are indeed never going to find "the path."

As far as Jesus being "God," he is as much God as you or I am. If your definition of God is a deity like Zeus and Hercules, then I disagree, but if you have a more modern and open-minded conception that describes where our consciousness comes from and goes to after our death, then yes, Jesus is God.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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1/25/2014 10:57:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 10:24:16 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
A lot of what's in the Bible is subject to legendary embellishment. People didn't live for hundreds of years, walk on water, etc. We know this because it's physically impossible.

That's defined as Epistemically impossible only. But that doesn't mean it's practically impossible in real, the need is to differentiate between the gap of knowledge (scientific explanations) and truth/reality .
Now that doesn't mean there isn't some really good, ultimately good (even) material in the Bible to read. The story of Cain and Abel is very enlightening, and Jesus's lessons are, accurately enough as he described, the only way to achieve happiness and if you don't comprehend them then you are indeed never going to find "the path."

As far as Jesus being "God," he is as much God as you or I am. If your definition of God is a deity like Zeus and Hercules, then I disagree, but if you have a more modern and open-minded conception that describes where our consciousness comes from and goes to after our death, then yes, Jesus is God.

Jesus is messenger of God.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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1/25/2014 12:53:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 10:57:05 AM, Dazz wrote:
At 1/25/2014 10:24:16 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
A lot of what's in the Bible is subject to legendary embellishment. People didn't live for hundreds of years, walk on water, etc. We know this because it's physically impossible.

That's defined as Epistemically impossible only. But that doesn't mean it's practically impossible in real, the need is to differentiate between the gap of knowledge (scientific explanations) and truth/reality.

There are no physically-possible ways for these to have happened. Period. And it is troubling that, just because somebody bothered to write it, that you would believe it.

Now that doesn't mean there isn't some really good, ultimately good (even) material in the Bible to read. The story of Cain and Abel is very enlightening, and Jesus's lessons are, accurately enough as he described, the only way to achieve happiness and if you don't comprehend them then you are indeed never going to find "the path."

As far as Jesus being "God," he is as much God as you or I am. If your definition of God is a deity like Zeus and Hercules, then I disagree, but if you have a more modern and open-minded conception that describes where our consciousness comes from and goes to after our death, then yes, Jesus is God.

Jesus is messenger of God.

So am I.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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1/25/2014 2:42:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 9:59:15 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
..or the son of God in the Bible? Messiah means "anointed one", but it does not mean "God". Also, other people call him "God" in one fashion or another, and he does not correct them, but he never says specifically, "I am God". Thoughts?

Maybe not directly, but the Pharisees' picking up rocks to stone him, do so because he said, "Before Abraham was, I am."
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/25/2014 4:32:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 9:59:15 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
..or the son of God in the Bible? Messiah means "anointed one", but it does not mean "God". Also, other people call him "God" in one fashion or another, and he does not correct them, but he never says specifically, "I am God". Thoughts?

John 7
15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
16: So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;

John 14
12: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

1 John 2
27: but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.

We saints get invisible knowledge within our mind, which is actually the mind of Christ. Christ is the created knowledge of God spoken into vibrations called energy, which is also known as the Kingdom of God.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,130
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1/25/2014 5:30:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 4:32:51 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/25/2014 9:59:15 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
..or the son of God in the Bible? Messiah means "anointed one", but it does not mean "God". Also, other people call him "God" in one fashion or another, and he does not correct them, but he never says specifically, "I am God". Thoughts?

John 7
15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
16: So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;

A prophet (or saint) might say the same, no?

John 14
12: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Could we not all call the god of the Bible,"Father", according to:

Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?

Ephesians 4-6
5 For us there is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 and we all have the same God and Father who is over us all and in us all, and living through every part of us.

1 John 2
27: but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.

This is not the words of Jesus.

We saints get invisible knowledge within our mind, which is actually the mind of Christ. Christ is the created knowledge of God spoken into vibrations called energy, which is also known as the Kingdom of God.

Thanks for your input.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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1/26/2014 7:27:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 12:53:45 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/25/2014 10:57:05 AM, Dazz wrote:
At 1/25/2014 10:24:16 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
A lot of what's in the Bible is subject to legendary embellishment. People didn't live for hundreds of years, walk on water, etc. We know this because it's physically impossible.

That's defined as Epistemically impossible only. But that doesn't mean it's practically impossible in real, the need is to differentiate between the gap of knowledge (scientific explanations) and truth/reality.

There are no physically-possible ways for these to have happened. Period. And it is troubling that, just because somebody bothered to write it, that you would believe it.
Specifically I'm talking about walking on water, that's not impossible actually. Possibility has no constraint here, what your sails do is same by the way. So I just can't get how would you define possibility here, you see for sun, it's possible to come out of west tomorrow. Isn't it?
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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1/26/2014 3:37:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 5:30:54 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 1/25/2014 4:32:51 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 1/25/2014 9:59:15 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
..or the son of God in the Bible? Messiah means "anointed one", but it does not mean "God". Also, other people call him "God" in one fashion or another, and he does not correct them, but he never says specifically, "I am God". Thoughts?

John 7
15: The Jews marveled at it, saying, "How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?"
16: So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me;

A prophet (or saint) might say the same, no?

Every word I speak comes from our Heavenly ( invisible ) Father.

John 14
12: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Could we not all call the god of the Bible,"Father", according to:

Of course we can. Our Father is the Creator of everything.

: Hebrews 12:9
9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?

: Ephesians 4-6
5 For us there is only one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 and we all have the same God and Father who is over us all and in us all, and living through every part of us.

1 John 2
27: but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.

This is not the words of Jesus.

That's correct. It's words spoken by another saint. There were thousands of saints who came after the first saint to testify to the invisible knowledge of God that no man can ever see. That's because God's knowledge was spoken into vibrations that we know as energy today.


We saints get invisible knowledge within our mind, which is actually the mind of Christ. Christ is the created knowledge of God spoken into vibrations called energy, which is also known as the Kingdom of God.

Thanks for your input.

You're welcome my friend.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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1/26/2014 3:51:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 10:24:16 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
People didn't live for hundreds of years, walk on water, etc. We know this because it's physically impossible.

I hate logically impotent absolutist statements. Such statements are usually made by religious zealots, but occasionally, they are made by atheists. This is one of those times.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
rockwater
Posts: 273
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1/27/2014 9:34:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm not sure that the Gospels are any better sources than the Epistles of Paul as to what Jesus actually said, because they too were not written by Jesus and were written after the fact to an audience of early Christian communities in order to communicate specific messages about the faith and not to provide an all-encompassing narrative of Jesus' life or a word-for-word recording of His exact statements in life. Just because everything written in the Bible is true and without error does not mean that what Jesus is quoted as saying in the Gospels is exactly what Jesus said, or that what Paul writes about Jesus' teachings is less authentic than what Jesus is quoted as saying in the Gospels.

That said, if you want quotes of Jesus' speech in the Gospels indicating His divinity, the Gospel of John addresses this more than the other three. The quote already mentioned "Before Abraham was, I AM," has Christ pretty obviously indicating His divinity to anyone familiar to the passage from Exodus where, in order to tell Moses His name, God speaks to him through the burning bush and says "I am who am" (and the Hebrew word used in the Old Testament for God's personal name, the Tetragrammaton YHVH than cannot be said out loud in Judaism and hence is often translated in English Bibles as the LORD in all caps, can be interpreted as "I am").

Throughout the Gospels, Jesus intentionally speaks using parables and figurative language. He constantly seems to be inviting those listening to Him, and hence the reader as well, to decide for themselves who they believe He is. This is a rhetorical technique used by the authors of the Gospels to persuade listeners and readers to adopt their beliefs about Christ - "You have to decide for yourself who Christ is, but I'm going to tell you a bunch of stuff anyway that really supports what I believe about who He is." Paul also talks about faith as a gift from God and not something that is just the result of rational thought. All the people who surround Christ in the Gospels have to decide who He is and deal with ambiguity that is similar to that faced by the reader of the Gospels. As far as I know, the only speaker in the Gospels who calls Jesus God and not something else like Christ/Messiah, Lord, or Son of God, is the Apostle Thomas in the Gospel of John, who at first doubts that Jesus appeared to the other disciples after the resurrection until Jesus appears right in front of him, at which point he exclaims, "My Lord and my God" (and Christ says, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe"). The Gospels are all distinct writings and were not written with the intent to be read in any order with respect to other Gospel narratives that may have already existed at the time, but it seems to make sense that the Early Church would arrange the Gospels in such a way that the disciples' path of discovery of the true identity of Christ culminates near the end of the last Gospel (John) with this confession of faith in His divinity coming from one of His disciples.
Composer
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1/28/2014 6:06:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/26/2014 7:27:38 AM, Dazz wrote:
At 1/25/2014 12:53:45 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/25/2014 10:57:05 AM, Dazz wrote:
At 1/25/2014 10:24:16 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
A lot of what's in the Bible is subject to legendary embellishment. People didn't live for hundreds of years, walk on water, etc. We know this because it's physically impossible.

That's defined as Epistemically impossible only. But that doesn't mean it's practically impossible in real, the need is to differentiate between the gap of knowledge (scientific explanations) and truth/reality.

There are no physically-possible ways for these to have happened. Period. And it is troubling that, just because somebody bothered to write it, that you would believe it.
Specifically I'm talking about walking on water, that's not impossible actually. Possibility has no constraint here, what your sails do is same by the way. So I just can't get how would you define possibility here, you see for sun, it's possible to come out of west tomorrow. Isn't it?
The magician DYNAMO was on TV walking on water!

So Stories about people walking on water before is possible if they know the same magic?
Composer
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1/28/2014 6:09:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/27/2014 5:44:15 PM, Tiffany1billion wrote:
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

1.Jesus said, "I and my Father are one' but the Jews misunderstood him, thinking he was claiming to be equal with God. (vs. 33). Trinitarians make the same mistake. The oneness referred to, is not a declaration by Christ that he is "Very God", but rather unity of purpose. Consider the evidence: a.Jesus subsequently prayed for his disciples, "that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11, 21). These words require that the unity referred to, be also extended to the disciples. Obviously the unity is not that of the powers of the Godhead but unity resulting from sanctification through the word of God. (John 17:14, 17, 18).
b.See also John 17:22, 23: ". . . that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one . . ." Likewise, these words require a relationship between the disciples and Christ which exists between the Son and his Father - a unity, or perfection with the divine purpose.

2.Elsewhere in John's gospel, Jesus clearly affirms that he is not co-equal with the Father: "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do." (John 5:19); "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." (John 5:30); "My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28). (wrestedscriptures.com)

I also suggest you read other responses there that unambiguously decimate the ideology that the Historical myth jebus was a god!
ethang5
Posts: 4,115
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1/28/2014 12:43:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Regardless of whether one believes Jesus was God or not, or whether Jesus called Himself God or not, 3 clear facts from the Bible remain.

1. Jesus was called God to His face
2. Jesus claimed qualities held only by God
3. The Bible refers to Jesus as God, using the actual word God. In the OT AND the NT.

The real question is, does one believe the Bible or not? If one doesn't then for that one the question of whether Jesus called Himself God is moot.

If one does, then to remain consistent, that one must believe that Jesus is God.

I would then deduce that an evangelist must convince his listeners of the validity of the Bible before anything else.

So, Yes, Jesus does claim to be God in the Bible.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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1/28/2014 2:34:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/25/2014 9:59:15 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
..or the son of God in the Bible? Messiah means "anointed one", but it does not mean "God". Also, other people call him "God" in one fashion or another, and he does not correct them, but he never says specifically, "I am God". Thoughts?

They don't tell him god in the sense of "the creator", he was a rabbi , literal translation of rabbi is god !!! so that's normal, but translations and Paul fashioned Jesus as a deity..
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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1/29/2014 5:38:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/28/2014 6:06:29 AM, Composer wrote:
At 1/26/2014 7:27:38 AM, Dazz wrote:
At 1/25/2014 12:53:45 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/25/2014 10:57:05 AM, Dazz wrote:
At 1/25/2014 10:24:16 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
A lot of what's in the Bible is subject to legendary embellishment. People didn't live for hundreds of years, walk on water, etc. We know this because it's physically impossible.

That's defined as Epistemically impossible only. But that doesn't mean it's practically impossible in real, the need is to differentiate between the gap of knowledge (scientific explanations) and truth/reality.

There are no physically-possible ways for these to have happened. Period. And it is troubling that, just because somebody bothered to write it, that you would believe it.
Specifically I'm talking about walking on water, that's not impossible actually. Possibility has no constraint here, what your sails do is same by the way. So I just can't get how would you define possibility here, you see for sun, it's possible to come out of west tomorrow. Isn't it?
The magician DYNAMO was on TV walking on water!

So Stories about people walking on water before is possible if they know the same magic?


I don't know what is "magic" for you. But I was just trying to clear up the confusion coming from the logical error _ as "we know this because it's physically impossible",
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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1/29/2014 8:06:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/26/2014 3:51:54 PM, HPWKA wrote:
At 1/25/2014 10:24:16 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
People didn't live for hundreds of years, walk on water, etc. We know this because it's physically impossible.

I hate logically impotent absolutist statements. Such statements are usually made by religious zealots, but occasionally, they are made by atheists. This is one of those times.

I'm not an atheist, you shouldn't make rash assumptions.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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1/29/2014 8:32:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I support many of the statements made in this thread regarding using caution when interpreting the Bible. First, Jesus spoke metaphorically/figuratively. That was the essence of his style. Whether he is talking about seeds strewn about a path or a "Kingdom of God," you can't take everything he says as literal. We have literal interpreters of the Bible, and these are people like the Westboro Baptist-type - the very worst Christians you will ever find ;).

Taking a literal approach also skews religion with science. If you insist Jesus walked on water and various biblical characters lived for many centuries before dying, then you are contradicting common sense as well as science. Morality and common sense do NOT contradict, and when zealots insist on these obvious breaches of physical reality they lose all support from their skeptics.

Second, Semantics is also at play here. Even when we aren't translating between entirely different languages, which we are in the Bible, even words within a single language tend to evolve and devolve over the centuries. A man who was ambitious, for instance, back in Jesus' day was the epitome of an evil and vicious tyrant with no moral center. A man who is ambitious in the modern era is one who is diligent in his responsibilities. Words can indeed be polar opposites of themselves and we must be careful how we use them. What many people forget to realize is that our vocabulary defines the ideas that we use and how we communicate.

And third, we have to acknowledge that somebody wrote the Bible. People are not perfect. Jesus did not write the Bible, somebody wrote about him and, if they kept true to Jesus's style, they were metaphorical and probably were not meant to be literal about such supernatural activities surrounding him. One doesn't have to deny that the Holy Spirit was in the people who wrote the Bible to accept that they weren't being literal. Learning about Jesus' morality/Holy Spirit/whatever you want to call it isn't to say that somebody is a supernatural being.

With all that said, I do believe Jesus claimed to be God. What most people fail to realize, that don't understand his message, is that his definition of "God" isn't a personified omnipotent man in the sky like a lot of people insist he meant. God is a more general concept that you or I can achieve through the practices Jesus espouses. Practices like humility, selflessness, and unconditional love for your worst enemy. God is the essence of consciousness where we exist before and after we live, and Jesus tells us that we can affect our timeless consciousness (perhaps even collective consciousness) by acting by his principles. And I happen to believe him.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
bulproof
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1/29/2014 9:19:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
First..Jesus spoke.

What?

How could you know?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,130
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1/29/2014 10:05:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Practices like humility, selflessness, and unconditional love for your worst enemy. God is the essence of consciousness where we exist before and after we live, and Jesus tells us that we can affect our timeless consciousness (perhaps even collective consciousness) by acting by his principles. And I happen to believe him.

You're not taking into account the God of the OT. He was, "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -Dawkins

The OT is a portrayal of God you are ignoring.

"If we ignore or reject or explain away the tasteless portrayals of our God, and accept only what we find agreeable, then we are the ones who are creating God. Scripture becomes unnecessary and God is nothing more than a projection of our own ideals" -Mark Roncace
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
rockwater
Posts: 273
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1/29/2014 5:31:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/29/2014 10:05:49 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
Practices like humility, selflessness, and unconditional love for your worst enemy. God is the essence of consciousness where we exist before and after we live, and Jesus tells us that we can affect our timeless consciousness (perhaps even collective consciousness) by acting by his principles. And I happen to believe him.

You're not taking into account the God of the OT. He was, "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -Dawkins

The OT is a portrayal of God you are ignoring.

"If we ignore or reject or explain away the tasteless portrayals of our God, and accept only what we find agreeable, then we are the ones who are creating God. Scripture becomes unnecessary and God is nothing more than a projection of our own ideals" -Mark Roncace

I agree that if God really did command genocide, order women to be subservient to men, etc., then life would be just a sick joke lived at the whims of a bullying omnipotent tyrant. Not only do I find that so distasteful (and so useless at inspiring me or anyone to do much of anything positive) that I don't want to believe it, but even when I read Scripture, read the writings of great Christian thinkers from early Christianity to today, or pray using traditional Christian prayers - those words, even the words of the Old Testament, simply do not mean to me that God is going about commanding murder and oppressing all kinds of people. All writing, even writing that Christians believe is divinely inspired, is written to deliver a certain message to a certain audience at a certain time. The Old Testament laws were written during a time when the Jews were in exile in Babylon and the authors wanted to record the legal and ritual practices from the lost Jewish kingdoms and Temple so that they could be one day restored, explain how to practice Judaism in the absence of a monarchy or Temple cult, and interpret the misfortune that the Jews experienced in exile as the result of disobedience to a covenant with God (and suggest that faithfulness to that covenant would result in the restoration of Jewish self-rule in the promised land). As for the genocide in the Book of Joshua, that was basically written to inspire pride in the Jews in exile who could feel capable of conquering and displacing people just like had been done to them (although they had to have God's favor in order to be able to do it). It also justified the promised land as being a place specifically for the Jews to inhabit and control - thereby arguing that Jews should one day return to it and rebuild.

There are lots of histories, legal codes, poems, works of propaganda, etc., produced over the course of human history, so it seems a bit random that I would decide to believe that the Bible, with all of its ugly passages, is divinely inspired. And I was not brought up to believe that it was. But even when I read the passages of Scripture that modern-day Christians like to ignore, I feel that I am reading truth. Truth about God's faithfulness to and love for all people, not just Jews or Christians. And truth about how people can form right relationships with each other so as to bring about God's Kingdom in a limited way now even before the Second Coming. If other people think that Scripture is nonsense or worse, hateful, I disagree with them but I don't think that they are necessarily doing anything wrong in being skeptical and pointing out hypocrisy.
R0b1Billion
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1/29/2014 5:49:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/29/2014 10:05:49 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
Practices like humility, selflessness, and unconditional love for your worst enemy. God is the essence of consciousness where we exist before and after we live, and Jesus tells us that we can affect our timeless consciousness (perhaps even collective consciousness) by acting by his principles. And I happen to believe him.

You're not taking into account the God of the OT. He was, "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -Dawkins

The OT is a portrayal of God you are ignoring.

Intentionally.

"If we ignore or reject or explain away the tasteless portrayals of our God, and accept only what we find agreeable, then we are the ones who are creating God. Scripture becomes unnecessary and God is nothing more than a projection of our own ideals" -Mark Roncace

I don't disagree with Mr Roncace's statement, but I find it highly irrelevant. He is trying to appeal to scientific Christians - those wrapped up in the scientific method and trying to apply it through a religious lens (e.g., Christians who take on geneticists). Science and religion, in my opinion, reinforce one another when both are used properly. But, and this is a HUGE "but," science and religion (philosophy) are completely different ways of gathering knowledge. If the Bible were a science text, yeah I'd be concerned about what the Old Testament said. But it's not. It's a bunch of guys over centuries worth of time putting together, piece-meal and utterly unrelated to each other, their religious conceptions of what they believed God was. Jesus references the God of the OT in order to provide a metaphorical basis for his teachings. Jesus's moral message is clear, and to ignore it based on what somebody else's conception of God was is to completely ignore what the greatest man who has ever lived had to say. Why don't you put down atheist rhetoricians for a moment and read what Jesus has to say? It's so very short and easy to read...
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Skepticalone
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1/29/2014 7:33:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/29/2014 5:49:58 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/29/2014 10:05:49 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
Practices like humility, selflessness, and unconditional love for your worst enemy. God is the essence of consciousness where we exist before and after we live, and Jesus tells us that we can affect our timeless consciousness (perhaps even collective consciousness) by acting by his principles. And I happen to believe him.

You're not taking into account the God of the OT. He was, "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -Dawkins

The OT is a portrayal of God you are ignoring.

Intentionally.

"If we ignore or reject or explain away the tasteless portrayals of our God, and accept only what we find agreeable, then we are the ones who are creating God. Scripture becomes unnecessary and God is nothing more than a projection of our own ideals" -Mark Roncace

I don't disagree with Mr Roncace's statement, but I find it highly irrelevant. He is trying to appeal to scientific Christians - those wrapped up in the scientific method and trying to apply it through a religious lens (e.g., Christians who take on geneticists). Science and religion, in my opinion, reinforce one another when both are used properly. But, and this is a HUGE "but," science and religion (philosophy) are completely different ways of gathering knowledge. If the Bible were a science text, yeah I'd be concerned about what the Old Testament said. But it's not. It's a bunch of guys over centuries worth of time putting together, piece-meal and utterly unrelated to each other, their religious conceptions of what they believed God was. Jesus references the God of the OT in order to provide a metaphorical basis for his teachings. Jesus's moral message is clear, and to ignore it based on what somebody else's conception of God was is to completely ignore what the greatest man who has ever lived had to say. Why don't you put down atheist rhetoricians for a moment and read what Jesus has to say? It's so very short and easy to read...

You cannot take the prophecies from the OT, and the creation story, and deny the portrayal of God. Otherwise Christians are being inconsistent with their beliefs, and you are making up your own god.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Skepticalone
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1/29/2014 7:56:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/29/2014 5:31:10 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 1/29/2014 10:05:49 AM, Skepticalone wrote:
Practices like humility, selflessness, and unconditional love for your worst enemy. God is the essence of consciousness where we exist before and after we live, and Jesus tells us that we can affect our timeless consciousness (perhaps even collective consciousness) by acting by his principles. And I happen to believe him.

You're not taking into account the God of the OT. He was, "jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." -Dawkins

The OT is a portrayal of God you are ignoring.

"If we ignore or reject or explain away the tasteless portrayals of our God, and accept only what we find agreeable, then we are the ones who are creating God. Scripture becomes unnecessary and God is nothing more than a projection of our own ideals" -Mark Roncace

I agree that if God really did command genocide, order women to be subservient to men, etc., then life would be just a sick joke lived at the whims of a bullying omnipotent tyrant. Not only do I find that so distasteful (and so useless at inspiring me or anyone to do much of anything positive) that I don't want to believe it, but even when I read Scripture, read the writings of great Christian thinkers from early Christianity to today, or pray using traditional Christian prayers - those words, even the words of the Old Testament, simply do not mean to me that God is going about commanding murder and oppressing all kinds of people. All writing, even writing that Christians believe is divinely inspired, is written to deliver a certain message to a certain audience at a certain time. The Old Testament laws were written during a time when the Jews were in exile in Babylon and the authors wanted to record the legal and ritual practices from the lost Jewish kingdoms and Temple so that they could be one day restored, explain how to practice Judaism in the absence of a monarchy or Temple cult, and interpret the misfortune that the Jews experienced in exile as the result of disobedience to a covenant with God (and suggest that faithfulness to that covenant would result in the restoration of Jewish self-rule in the promised land). As for the genocide in the Book of Joshua, that was basically written to inspire pride in the Jews in exile who could feel capable of conquering and displacing people just like had been done to them (although they had to have God's favor in order to be able to do it). It also justified the promised land as being a place specifically for the Jews to inhabit and control - thereby arguing that Jews should one day return to it and rebuild.

There are lots of histories, legal codes, poems, works of propaganda, etc., produced over the course of human history, so it seems a bit random that I would decide to believe that the Bible, with all of its ugly passages, is divinely inspired. And I was not brought up to believe that it was. But even when I read the passages of Scripture that modern-day Christians like to ignore, I feel that I am reading truth. Truth about God's faithfulness to and love for all people, not just Jews or Christians. And truth about how people can form right relationships with each other so as to bring about God's Kingdom in a limited way now even before the Second Coming. If other people think that Scripture is nonsense or worse, hateful, I disagree with them but I don't think that they are necessarily doing anything wrong in being skeptical and pointing out hypocrisy.

If you accept the Bible as is, I will give you credit because you are at least being consistent with the Bible. What I detest though, is that most Christians cherry pick the Bible. They point to the NT and Jesus and say, "We are in the new convenant, and the OT and its laws are obsolete!" Statements like these go blatantly against what Jesus said, and I find this highly dishonest. Especially since, theist believe their morals are superior because they follow a 'loving merciful, just God', which of course, is NOT the God in the OT.

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

Luke 16:17
17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tittle of the law to fall.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
PGA
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1/30/2014 10:08:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/28/2014 12:43:46 PM, ethang5 wrote:
Regardless of whether one believes Jesus was God or not, or whether Jesus called Himself God or not, 3 clear facts from the Bible remain.

1. Jesus was called God to His face
2. Jesus claimed qualities held only by God
3. The Bible refers to Jesus as God, using the actual word God. In the OT AND the NT.

Well put!

The real question is, does one believe the Bible or not? If one doesn't then for that one the question of whether Jesus called Himself God is moot.

Exactly. If one does not believe the Bible is God's word to man then it is highly unlikely he is going to believe Jesus is God or worship Him as He truly is.

If one does, then to remain consistent, that one must believe that Jesus is God.

There is no way around it.

I would then deduce that an evangelist must convince his listeners of the validity of the Bible before anything else.

So, Yes, Jesus does claim to be God in the Bible.

Agreed!

Peter