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Debate over Roman Catholic Teachings

rockwater
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1/29/2014 5:42:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am a Roman Catholic, albeit a liberal and heretical one. I'm not going to try and justify the RCC's teachings on women's ordination or human sexuality. As for the RCC's other teachings, which I may or may not agree with in real life, I'd like to defend them against anyone who wants to critique them - or explain them as best I can to someone who does not understand them. So let's do that on this thread. Please be respectful.
Dogknox
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1/30/2014 10:50:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/29/2014 5:42:08 PM, rockwater wrote:
I am a Roman Catholic, albeit a liberal and heretical one. I'm not going to try and justify the RCC's teachings on women's ordination or human sexuality. As for the RCC's other teachings, which I may or may not agree with in real life, I'd like to defend them against anyone who wants to critique them - or explain them as best I can to someone who does not understand them. So let's do that on this thread. Please be respectful.

rockwater Good to meet you..
I point out.. You are NOT Catholic if you reject the teaching of the Church.. You are Protestant.. In Protest!

You cannot be a cafeteria Catholic.. A little of this and a little of that!!
Protestants are cafeteria; Thus the thousands and thousands of man made churches springing up!!

I also point out.. You cannot be a heretic because you are not a priest! All you are is, mixed up you have NO authority to teach a lick!

Martin Luther was a HERETIC! He had authority to teach, his authority was given him from/by his bishop!

LOOK.. this is prophesy!!
2 peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them"bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.


rockwater there will be false teachers among you.
Martin Luther was a false teacher! He was AMONG Catholics! Catholics could not be AMONG Martin Luther, proving this PROPHESY can only work in the one direction, all the De-Formers must be the FALSE TEACHERS, all came from or have roots back to the Holy Catholic Church, they were AMONG us!!

rockwater note verse #2 bring the way of truth into disrepute

This verse PROVES the Catholic Church is "The Way Of truth"!
The Prophesy works in only one direction.. The False Teachers came from AMONG the Catholic Church can't be; The Catholic Church came from any false teachers because there was ONLY the Catholic Church until the great "De-Formation"!
This prophesy PROVES all these man made church with roots back to the great protest and the de-forming are NOT "The way of truth"!

If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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1/30/2014 11:20:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Dogknox: "If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!"

Anna: Who knows what they teach? Every time something is cited from one of their "infallible leaders", they deny it and say he was only expressing his opinion. Who's to know exactly when papa is speaking infallibly versus only shooting off at the mouth? I've repeatedly asked for a complete list of infallible utterances by papas. It looks to me like someone ought to be able to obtain one by writing the Vatican. If anybody can provide an official list of infallible teachings, I'd like to see it.

I do know that the Catholic Church has in the past called the separation of church and state a pernicious evil. The pope outright said it. Verbatim. They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States. If the Catholic Church is in the minority, they are big on freedom of religion. They become very broadminded. If they ever have a nice majority, they will do all they can to oppose everyone else.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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1/30/2014 12:54:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 11:20:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!"

Anna: Who knows what they teach? Every time something is cited from one of their "infallible leaders", they deny it and say he was only expressing his opinion. Who's to know exactly when papa is speaking infallibly versus only shooting off at the mouth? I've repeatedly asked for a complete list of infallible utterances by papas. It looks to me like someone ought to be able to obtain one by writing the Vatican. If anybody can provide an official list of infallible teachings, I'd like to see it.

I do know that the Catholic Church has in the past called the separation of church and state a pernicious evil. The pope outright said it. Verbatim. They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States. If the Catholic Church is in the minority, they are big on freedom of religion. They become very broadminded. If they ever have a nice majority, they will do all they can to oppose everyone else.
Who knows what they teach?
annanicole She teaches "Contraception is wrong" for just one thing!

The Catholic Church does not change.. She cannot teach error!
She cannot teach "Symbolic Communion"!
She cannot teach "Scriptures have the ONLY AUTHORITY"!
She cannot teach "Infant baptism is wrong"!
She cannot teach "Jesus left his bride 2000 years ago"!
She cannot teach "Church has no authority to teach all nations"!
She cannot teach "Peter is not the key holder the first lead Jesus' (God') Church"!
She cannot teach "Mary is NOT the mother of God"!
She cannot teach "The Holy Spirit leads Jesus' church into error"!
She cannot teach "Man is saved by faith ALONE"!
She cannot teach "Jesus established any other church except the Holy Catholic Church"!
She cannot teach "Jesus established church is not holy or is to be blamed"!

annanicole The Catholic Church is the ONLY Church Jesus established the only church with roots traceable back to Jesus the only Church that is APOSTOLIC!!
annanicole
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1/30/2014 1:53:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 12:54:47 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/30/2014 11:20:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!"

Anna: Who knows what they teach? Every time something is cited from one of their "infallible leaders", they deny it and say he was only expressing his opinion. Who's to know exactly when papa is speaking infallibly versus only shooting off at the mouth? I've repeatedly asked for a complete list of infallible utterances by papas. It looks to me like someone ought to be able to obtain one by writing the Vatican. If anybody can provide an official list of infallible teachings, I'd like to see it.

I do know that the Catholic Church has in the past called the separation of church and state a pernicious evil. The pope outright said it. Verbatim. They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States. If the Catholic Church is in the minority, they are big on freedom of religion. They become very broadminded. If they ever have a nice majority, they will do all they can to oppose everyone else.
Who knows what they teach?
annanicole She teaches "Contraception is wrong" for just one thing!

The Catholic Church does not change.. She cannot teach error!
She cannot teach "Symbolic Communion"!
She cannot teach "Scriptures have the ONLY AUTHORITY"!
She cannot teach "Infant baptism is wrong"!
She cannot teach "Jesus left his bride 2000 years ago"!
She cannot teach "Church has no authority to teach all nations"!
She cannot teach "Peter is not the key holder the first lead Jesus' (God') Church"!
She cannot teach "Mary is NOT the mother of God"!
She cannot teach "The Holy Spirit leads Jesus' church into error"!
She cannot teach "Man is saved by faith ALONE"!
She cannot teach "Jesus established any other church except the Holy Catholic Church"!
She cannot teach "Jesus established church is not holy or is to be blamed"!

annanicole The Catholic Church is the ONLY Church Jesus established the only church with roots traceable back to Jesus the only Church that is APOSTOLIC!!

Pfffffffffffft. That's nothing but some more of your BS rhetoric, starting with this one: "The Catholic Church does not change.. She cannot teach error!" That's pure, adulterated nonsense. I've never seen or heard of a group of people who has flip-flopped more on this issue or that issue or talked more out of both sides of its mouth. Popes, councils, cardinals and all the rest have frequently contradicted one another. Councils of the Catholic Church have even pronounced former popes heretics, and one pope has called another pope a heretic.

You can't direct me to a complete listing of infallible teachings of the Catholic Church to save your life, nor can you direct me to a listing of infallible teachings of the popes going all the way back to Boniface III. You don't know the infallible teachings/positions of the Catholic Church yourself!

You seem to think that if you say something long enough, the repetition makes it true. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. In fact, you have a habit of just blurting out whatever sounds good to you, then when someone calls for proof, you just move on to something else. And, like a good Catholic, the number of actual debates that you've had on here is ..... a big fat goose-egg. That's right! ZERO! And you aren't going to have any, either.

"The Catholic Church does not change.. She cannot teach error!"

Then the Catholic Church opposes the separation of church and state, and opposes the freedom of religion. She stands opposed to the public education system. In fact, she stands opposed to everything that is good and decent about modern democratic governments. You know it as well as I do.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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1/30/2014 2:22:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
.... and none of 2 peter 2: 1-2 has a thing in the world to do with Martin Luther - and I do not even agree with Luther. Luther made almost as many mistakes as the Catholic Church, although he does deserve commendation for promoting the then-novel idea that men ought to at least be allowed to read the Bible for themselves.

You can thank Luther and Wycliffe - not the Roman Catholic Church - for the fact that YOU have the right to own and read a Bible. You might be interested to know that the Catholic Church has NEVER ONCE given the world a translation of the Bible from the Greek manuscripts into English. NOT ONCE! The Catholic Church possesses one of the best Greek manuscripts in the world, the Codex Vaticanus, and won't even use it!

I think the Catholic Church was finally embarrassed into providing an English translation of sorts about 225 YEARS after Wycliffe and 100 YEARS after Luther. As usual, they resisted it as long as they could. Even after they published an English translation, they forbade the faithful from reading it. At one point, they confiscated their own Bibles! Now why is that? According to you, the Bible supports Catholicism. Yet everywhere the Bible went, revolts against the extravagant claims of the Catholic Church (the same claims that you make) occurred. These are the boys in whom you place your trust, Dogknox!
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
rockwater
Posts: 273
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1/30/2014 4:35:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 10:50:19 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/29/2014 5:42:08 PM, rockwater wrote:
I am a Roman Catholic, albeit a liberal and heretical one. I'm not going to try and justify the RCC's teachings on women's ordination or human sexuality. As for the RCC's other teachings, which I may or may not agree with in real life, I'd like to defend them against anyone who wants to critique them - or explain them as best I can to someone who does not understand them. So let's do that on this thread. Please be respectful.

rockwater Good to meet you..
I point out.. You are NOT Catholic if you reject the teaching of the Church.. You are Protestant.. In Protest!

You cannot be a cafeteria Catholic.. A little of this and a little of that!!
Protestants are cafeteria; Thus the thousands and thousands of man made churches springing up!!

I also point out.. You cannot be a heretic because you are not a priest! All you are is, mixed up you have NO authority to teach a lick!

Martin Luther was a HERETIC! He had authority to teach, his authority was given him from/by his bishop!

LOOK.. this is prophesy!!
2 peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them"bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.


rockwater there will be false teachers among you.
Martin Luther was a false teacher! He was AMONG Catholics! Catholics could not be AMONG Martin Luther, proving this PROPHESY can only work in the one direction, all the De-Formers must be the FALSE TEACHERS, all came from or have roots back to the Holy Catholic Church, they were AMONG us!!

rockwater note verse #2 bring the way of truth into disrepute

This verse PROVES the Catholic Church is "The Way Of truth"!
The Prophesy works in only one direction.. The False Teachers came from AMONG the Catholic Church can't be; The Catholic Church came from any false teachers because there was ONLY the Catholic Church until the great "De-Formation"!
This prophesy PROVES all these man made church with roots back to the great protest and the de-forming are NOT "The way of truth"!

If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!

A layperson can be a heretic.
A heretic (even an excommunicated one) remains a Roman Catholic. I read that in the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults.
Of course it's just an issue of semantics because a formal (outspoken) heretic is both in a state of mortal sin and is laete sententiae excommunicated.

That said, I'm going to keep calling myself a Roman Catholic whether you say I am one or not. And that's as much as I am going to discuss that particular point with you.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,043
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1/30/2014 4:38:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 1:53:04 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/30/2014 12:54:47 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/30/2014 11:20:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!"

Anna: Who knows what they teach? Every time something is cited from one of their "infallible leaders", they deny it and say he was only expressing his opinion. Who's to know exactly when papa is speaking infallibly versus only shooting off at the mouth? I've repeatedly asked for a complete list of infallible utterances by papas. It looks to me like someone ought to be able to obtain one by writing the Vatican. If anybody can provide an official list of infallible teachings, I'd like to see it.

I do know that the Catholic Church has in the past called the separation of church and state a pernicious evil. The pope outright said it. Verbatim. They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States. If the Catholic Church is in the minority, they are big on freedom of religion. They become very broadminded. If they ever have a nice majority, they will do all they can to oppose everyone else.
Who knows what they teach?
annanicole She teaches "Contraception is wrong" for just one thing!

The Catholic Church does not change.. She cannot teach error!
She cannot teach "Symbolic Communion"!
She cannot teach "Scriptures have the ONLY AUTHORITY"!
She cannot teach "Infant baptism is wrong"!
She cannot teach "Jesus left his bride 2000 years ago"!
She cannot teach "Church has no authority to teach all nations"!
She cannot teach "Peter is not the key holder the first lead Jesus' (God') Church"!
She cannot teach "Mary is NOT the mother of God"!
She cannot teach "The Holy Spirit leads Jesus' church into error"!
She cannot teach "Man is saved by faith ALONE"!
She cannot teach "Jesus established any other church except the Holy Catholic Church"!
She cannot teach "Jesus established church is not holy or is to be blamed"!

annanicole The Catholic Church is the ONLY Church Jesus established the only church with roots traceable back to Jesus the only Church that is APOSTOLIC!!

Pfffffffffffft. That's nothing but some more of your BS rhetoric, starting with this one: "The Catholic Church does not change.. She cannot teach error!" That's pure, adulterated nonsense. I've never seen or heard of a group of people who has flip-flopped more on this issue or that issue or talked more out of both sides of its mouth. Popes, councils, cardinals and all the rest have frequently contradicted one another. Councils of the Catholic Church have even pronounced former popes heretics, and one pope has called another pope a heretic.

You can't direct me to a complete listing of infallible teachings of the Catholic Church to save your life, nor can you direct me to a listing of infallible teachings of the popes going all the way back to Boniface III. You don't know the infallible teachings/positions of the Catholic Church yourself!

You seem to think that if you say something long enough, the repetition makes it true. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. In fact, you have a habit of just blurting out whatever sounds good to you, then when someone calls for proof, you just move on to something else. And, like a good Catholic, the number of actual debates that you've had on here is ..... a big fat goose-egg. That's right! ZERO! And you aren't going to have any, either.

"The Catholic Church does not change.. She cannot teach error!"

Then the Catholic Church opposes the separation of church and state, and opposes the freedom of religion. She stands opposed to the public education system. In fact, she stands opposed to everything that is good and decent about modern democratic governments. You know it as well as I do.

annanicole I point you to the ONLY Church Jesus established... The Holy Catholic Church!
She defends truth she cannot teach error!

Your post does not point to scripture, all you have said is just accusation and opinion no proofs of any kind!!
I say your opinion has proven over and over to mean nothing but hot air to your comments I say: PROVE IT!

The Catholic Church started the University System found today, thus YOU ARE WRONG AGAIN, your church did not! The Catholic Church is the largest Charity by far in the world so again I say: YOU ARE WRONG!
FACT: The Catholic Church was the ONLY hospital provider for the sick in the world until the eighteen hundreds, when governments started to take on the job! The Catholic Church still today has many hospitals in the USA She was the ONLY welfare available to the poor for centuries!! Give your head a shake, YOU ARE WRONG!!!

annanicole Jesus is attacked in this world by Satan and by you!

You have accusation??? I note you never post any proof!!

annanicole You reject the scriptures.. God' words outright as lies!

You accept the teaching of your church as authoritative??!!!
annanicole Your man made church TEACHES the Scriptures are the ONLY authority!? You accept this teaching of your UN-AUTHORITY Church as being the truth!!? PROVING you do not accept the scriptures alone as authority!

The scriptures tell you and your man made church: "The flesh of Jesus is real food"!
Your UN-authoritative man made church teaches, The OPPOSITE they teach, the flesh of Jesus is NOT real food!??? You accept the teaching of your church as the truth over the AUTHORITY of the scriptures! You are hypocrite accepting your churches teaching opposite to the words of God!

annanicole The scriptures tell you and your man made church: "Jesus is ALWAYS with his TEACHING Church to the very end of time"!
Your UN-authoritative man made church teaches, The OPPOSITE they TEACH: "Jesus was overpowered by Satan and Jesus left his body"!
You are hypocrite accepting your churches teaching opposite to the words of God!

Scriptures point to the hypocrisy of you and your man made church! You are opposed to everything that is good and decent about Jesus and his spoken word. You know it as well as I do.
annanicole You and your man made church fights against Jesus, opposed directly against the scriptures (The words of GOD) and the TEACHING authority God gave to his one holy blameless church!

I post scriptures!
You reject the words of God, you reply instead with accusation and insult against Jesus!
Dogknox
Posts: 5,043
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1/30/2014 4:47:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 4:35:39 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 1/30/2014 10:50:19 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/29/2014 5:42:08 PM, rockwater wrote:
I am a Roman Catholic, albeit a liberal and heretical one. I'm not going to try and justify the RCC's teachings on women's ordination or human sexuality. As for the RCC's other teachings, which I may or may not agree with in real life, I'd like to defend them against anyone who wants to critique them - or explain them as best I can to someone who does not understand them. So let's do that on this thread. Please be respectful.

rockwater Good to meet you..
I point out.. You are NOT Catholic if you reject the teaching of the Church.. You are Protestant.. In Protest!

You cannot be a cafeteria Catholic.. A little of this and a little of that!!
Protestants are cafeteria; Thus the thousands and thousands of man made churches springing up!!

I also point out.. You cannot be a heretic because you are not a priest! All you are is, mixed up you have NO authority to teach a lick!

Martin Luther was a HERETIC! He had authority to teach, his authority was given him from/by his bishop!

LOOK.. this is prophesy!!
2 peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them"bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.


rockwater there will be false teachers among you.
Martin Luther was a false teacher! He was AMONG Catholics! Catholics could not be AMONG Martin Luther, proving this PROPHESY can only work in the one direction, all the De-Formers must be the FALSE TEACHERS, all came from or have roots back to the Holy Catholic Church, they were AMONG us!!

rockwater note verse #2 bring the way of truth into disrepute

This verse PROVES the Catholic Church is "The Way Of truth"!
The Prophesy works in only one direction.. The False Teachers came from AMONG the Catholic Church can't be; The Catholic Church came from any false teachers because there was ONLY the Catholic Church until the great "De-Formation"!
This prophesy PROVES all these man made church with roots back to the great protest and the de-forming are NOT "The way of truth"!

If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!

A layperson can be a heretic.
A heretic (even an excommunicated one) remains a Roman Catholic. I read that in the United States Catholic Catechism for Adults.
Of course it's just an issue of semantics because a formal (outspoken) heretic is both in a state of mortal sin and is laete sententiae excommunicated.

That said, I'm going to keep calling myself a Roman Catholic whether you say I am one or not. And that's as much as I am going to discuss that particular point with you.

rockwater heretics are FALSE TEACHERS!!! You have no authority to teach!!
You might spread error, because you do not have authority your words are just that "Your Words"!

Yes call yourself Catholic because you are Catholic. I was pointing out Catholic's accept all the truths taught by Jesus' holy bride! Rejecting them is rejecting Jesus!

The Holy Spirit is guiding the Catholic Church forever! The Holy Spirit cannot guide into error!
Think: If God was to err then God would not be perfect, he would not be God!
rockwater
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1/30/2014 5:20:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 11:20:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!"

Anna: Who knows what they teach? Every time something is cited from one of their "infallible leaders", they deny it and say he was only expressing his opinion. Who's to know exactly when papa is speaking infallibly versus only shooting off at the mouth? I've repeatedly asked for a complete list of infallible utterances by papas. It looks to me like someone ought to be able to obtain one by writing the Vatican. If anybody can provide an official list of infallible teachings, I'd like to see it.

I do know that the Catholic Church has in the past called the separation of church and state a pernicious evil. The pope outright said it. Verbatim. They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States. If the Catholic Church is in the minority, they are big on freedom of religion. They become very broadminded. If they ever have a nice majority, they will do all they can to oppose everyone else.

Hi annanicole -

Being a dissenting RC the whole issue of Papal Infallibility is an interesting one for me. There are infallible teachings of the Church that are not infallible because of Papal Infallibility Most theologians would argue that there are only 2 times that a Pope has used Papal Infallibility: Defining the Immaculate Conception of Mary in the 19th Century and Defining the Assumption of Mary in the 20th Century. Those are mostly issues of popular devotion to Mary that other Christians find heretical but that don't make much difference in the day to day activities of the Church like teachings on women's ordination or human sexuality do - or like teachings on the Eucharist or Papal authority do. I believe in the Marian doctrines but I know lots of Christians don't

When a Pope exercises Papal infallibility, he uses words similar to "I define, I declare, speaking from the Chair of St. Peter, etc." It's very hard to miss. Since infallibility is so controversial the Pope uses it not much more often than any military would use nuclear weapons.

As for women's ordination, the pope says it is infallibly impossible because all (non-heretical) Catholic bishops have always taught so, not because of Papal Infallibility. Because there is no way to interview all bishops in history to see if that is what they really mean, this is kind of a cop out. The Church has painted itself into a corner and would never admit that this teaching could be wrong but, technically, this teaching could be wrong. You'll never get a conservative Catholic to admit it and they'll say I'm delusional.

There's another kind of infallibility and that one comes from ecumenical councils. The First Vatican Council, for example, infallibly explained what Papal Infallibility is. How do we know that a council is an Ecumenical Council and how do we know what specific words from the proceedings of an ecumenical council are infallible teachings? The only explanation I have heard is that a Pope has to say so afterwards. But when popes have said so, are they using Papal infallibility? I think conservative Catholics would say yes and would probably point to some document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to prove it, but you can see that if you want to split hairs you can have a field day with infallibility.

You're right about Popes being on record as being pro-legalized slavery, anti-separation of church and state, anti-democracy, anti-religious freedom, etc. The popes who said those things did not even think themselves that they were using papal infallibility. When it comes to political issues, even when the Church knows its leaders said wrong things in the past it tends to not say the exact opposite in the present (ie, there should be a strict separation of church and state or people should have absolute freedom to practice whatever religion they want), but instead comes close to saying it with vague statements. They have come pretty close, though, since Vatican II. I'd be surprised to see them go all the way, though, since they haven't fully gotten their minds wrapped around a "right to believe and practice something wrong" yet.

The New American Bible, Revised Edition, the current English translation of the Bible for US Catholics, is definitely a translation from the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic into English. Do you claim that it isn't?
Dogknox
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1/30/2014 5:42:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 5:20:45 PM, rockwater wrote:
At 1/30/2014 11:20:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!"

Anna: Who knows what they teach? Every time something is cited from one of their "infallible leaders", they deny it and say he was only expressing his opinion. Who's to know exactly when papa is speaking infallibly versus only shooting off at the mouth? I've repeatedly asked for a complete list of infallible utterances by papas. It looks to me like someone ought to be able to obtain one by writing the Vatican. If anybody can provide an official list of infallible teachings, I'd like to see it.

I do know that the Catholic Church has in the past called the separation of church and state a pernicious evil. The pope outright said it. Verbatim. They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States. If the Catholic Church is in the minority, they are big on freedom of religion. They become very broadminded. If they ever have a nice majority, they will do all they can to oppose everyone else.

Hi annanicole -

Being a dissenting RC the whole issue of Papal Infallibility is an interesting one for me. There are infallible teachings of the Church that are not infallible because of Papal Infallibility Most theologians would argue that there are only 2 times that a Pope has used Papal Infallibility: Defining the Immaculate Conception of Mary in the 19th Century and Defining the Assumption of Mary in the 20th Century. Those are mostly issues of popular devotion to Mary that other Christians find heretical but that don't make much difference in the day to day activities of the Church like teachings on women's ordination or human sexuality do - or like teachings on the Eucharist or Papal authority do. I believe in the Marian doctrines but I know lots of Christians don't

When a Pope exercises Papal infallibility, he uses words similar to "I define, I declare, speaking from the Chair of St. Peter, etc." It's very hard to miss. Since infallibility is so controversial the Pope uses it not much more often than any military would use nuclear weapons.

As for women's ordination, the pope says it is infallibly impossible because all (non-heretical) Catholic bishops have always taught so, not because of Papal Infallibility. Because there is no way to interview all bishops in history to see if that is what they really mean, this is kind of a cop out. The Church has painted itself into a corner and would never admit that this teaching could be wrong but, technically, this teaching could be wrong. You'll never get a conservative Catholic to admit it and they'll say I'm delusional.

There's another kind of infallibility and that one comes from ecumenical councils. The First Vatican Council, for example, infallibly explained what Papal Infallibility is. How do we know that a council is an Ecumenical Council and how do we know what specific words from the proceedings of an ecumenical council are infallible teachings? The only explanation I have heard is that a Pope has to say so afterwards. But when popes have said so, are they using Papal infallibility? I think conservative Catholics would say yes and would probably point to some document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to prove it, but you can see that if you want to split hairs you can have a field day with infallibility.

You're right about Popes being on record as being pro-legalized slavery, anti-separation of church and state, anti-democracy, anti-religious freedom, etc. The popes who said those things did not even think themselves that they were using papal infallibility. When it comes to political issues, even when the Church knows its leaders said wrong things in the past it tends to not say the exact opposite in the present (ie, there should be a strict separation of church and state or people should have absolute freedom to practice whatever religion they want), but instead comes close to saying it with vague statements. They have come pretty close, though, since Vatican II. I'd be surprised to see them go all the way, though, since they haven't fully gotten their minds wrapped around a "right to believe and practice something wrong" yet.

The New American Bible, Revised Edition, the current English translation of the Bible for US Catholics, is definitely a translation from the original Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic into English. Do you claim that it isn't?

Your words.. As for women's ordination, the pope says it is infallibly impossible because all (non-heretical) Catholic bishops have always taught so, not because of Papal Infallibility. Because there is no way to interview all bishops in history to see if that is what they really mean, this is kind of a cop out. The Church has painted itself into a corner and would never admit that this teaching could be wrong but, technically, this teaching could be wrong. You'll never get a conservative Catholic to admit it and they'll say I'm delusional.

I reply: Jesus is male. Jesus is SON!!!! Clearly God has only ONE SON!
Priests in the Old Testament were all MALE!!!

Priests represent God in the Old Testament and Priests represent Jesus in his New Testament!
Woman have there role in salvation history, it is just not the role of priest!
Priests are TEACHERS!
Not painted itself into a corner but guided by God the Holy Spirit from making error!

rockwater Never ever have there been "priestesses" in the Old testament or the new!
superflymegastallion
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1/30/2014 6:01:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 1:53:04 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/30/2014 12:54:47 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/30/2014 11:20:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!"

Anna: Who knows what they teach? Every time something is cited from one of their "infallible leaders", they deny it and say he was only expressing his opinion. Who's to know exactly when papa is speaking infallibly versus only shooting off at the mouth? I've repeatedly asked for a complete list of infallible utterances by papas. It looks to me like someone ought to be able to obtain one by writing the Vatican. If anybody can provide an official list of infallible teachings, I'd like to see it.

I do know that the Catholic Church has in the past called the separation of church and state a pernicious evil. The pope outright said it. Verbatim. They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States. If the Catholic Church is in the minority, they are big on freedom of religion. They become very broadminded. If they ever have a nice majority, they will do all they can to oppose everyone else.
Who knows what they teach?
annanicole She teaches "Contraception is wrong" for just one thing!

The Catholic Church does not change.. She cannot teach error!
She cannot teach "Symbolic Communion"!
She cannot teach "Scriptures have the ONLY AUTHORITY"!
She cannot teach "Infant baptism is wrong"!
She cannot teach "Jesus left his bride 2000 years ago"!
She cannot teach "Church has no authority to teach all nations"!
She cannot teach "Peter is not the key holder the first lead Jesus' (God') Church"!
She cannot teach "Mary is NOT the mother of God"!
She cannot teach "The Holy Spirit leads Jesus' church into error"!
She cannot teach "Man is saved by faith ALONE"!
She cannot teach "Jesus established any other church except the Holy Catholic Church"!
She cannot teach "Jesus established church is not holy or is to be blamed"!

annanicole The Catholic Church is the ONLY Church Jesus established the only church with roots traceable back to Jesus the only Church that is APOSTOLIC!!

Pfffffffffffft. That's nothing but some more of your BS rhetoric, starting with this one: "The Catholic Church does not change.. She cannot teach error!" That's pure, adulterated nonsense. I've never seen or heard of a group of people who has flip-flopped more on this issue or that issue or talked more out of both sides of its mouth. Popes, councils, cardinals and all the rest have frequently contradicted one another. Councils of the Catholic Church have even pronounced former popes heretics, and one pope has called another pope a heretic.

You can't direct me to a complete listing of infallible teachings of the Catholic Church to save your life, nor can you direct me to a listing of infallible teachings of the popes going all the way back to Boniface III. You don't know the infallible teachings/positions of the Catholic Church yourself!

You seem to think that if you say something long enough, the repetition makes it true. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. In fact, you have a habit of just blurting out whatever sounds good to you, then when someone calls for proof, you just move on to something else. And, like a good Catholic, the number of actual debates that you've had on here is ..... a big fat goose-egg. That's right! ZERO! And you aren't going to have any, either.

"The Catholic Church does not change.. She cannot teach error!"

Then the Catholic Church opposes the separation of church and state, and opposes the freedom of religion. She stands opposed to the public education system. In fact, she stands opposed to everything that is good and decent about modern democratic governments. You know it as well as I do.
Didn't they just change and say that gays and atheists can go to heaven?
philochristos
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1/30/2014 6:54:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/29/2014 5:42:08 PM, rockwater wrote:
I am a Roman Catholic, albeit a liberal and heretical one. I'm not going to try and justify the RCC's teachings on women's ordination or human sexuality. As for the RCC's other teachings, which I may or may not agree with in real life, I'd like to defend them against anyone who wants to critique them - or explain them as best I can to someone who does not understand them. So let's do that on this thread. Please be respectful.

I've been wanting to debate a Catholic on transubstantiation if you're open to that. I mean a formal debate, though, not on this thread.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
rockwater
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1/30/2014 7:31:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 6:54:15 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/29/2014 5:42:08 PM, rockwater wrote:
I am a Roman Catholic, albeit a liberal and heretical one. I'm not going to try and justify the RCC's teachings on women's ordination or human sexuality. As for the RCC's other teachings, which I may or may not agree with in real life, I'd like to defend them against anyone who wants to critique them - or explain them as best I can to someone who does not understand them. So let's do that on this thread. Please be respectful.

I've been wanting to debate a Catholic on transubstantiation if you're open to that. I mean a formal debate, though, not on this thread.

Sorry I don't really like the formal debates. I don't want to be voted as presenting the best argument. I want to have a discussion about what we agree and disagree about to see if there are any things we didn't think about with respect to the other side's beliefs and then if necessary agree to disagree. There isn't really any point in trying to "win" a transubstantiation argument online is there? And since I'm a terrible debater I'd probably lose. So there :p

But if anyone wants to discuss/debate transubstantiation here, I'm all for it. How is transubstantiation not cannibalism? I know that the RCC has an answer for that but even I as an RC (no matter what some may call me) have a bit of a hard time understanding why it isn't cannibalism. The problem is I both believe in transubstantiation and kind of like that it seems to be cannibalism. I totally am against eating human flesh in any other way unless it is of someone already dead and for the mere purpose of survival. But with eating the God-Man's Flesh and Blood because He died and rose again for us and told us to do it as both a memorial of His Sacrifice and a participation in the Offering of that same Sacrifice....come on, doesn't that sound awesome? Some religions practice human sacrifice because they believe that the gods need/want to gain nourishment from human flesh and blood. Roman Catholics and many other Christians believe that God became Man and offered Himself up on the Cross in Sacrifice for us and even now gives His own incarnate human Flesh and Blood for us to eat. It's such a beautiful idea that it doesn't really matter if it makes complete sense to a human mind, just like the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, etc.
philochristos
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1/30/2014 7:47:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 7:31:45 PM, rockwater wrote:
There isn't really any point in trying to "win" a transubstantiation argument online is there?

Well, that's kind of the point of this web page--to have formal debates. I see the discussion forums as just a bonus, but not the main purpose of this page.

I'm all for discussion, but I look at debating as kind of a game, and like all games, it requires strategy. One of my strategies is to not reveal my arguments before the debate takes place. I like to use the element of surprise. Since I'm still holding out for a formal debate on transubstantiation, I can't really discuss it with you right now.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
annanicole
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1/30/2014 11:42:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 7:47:41 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/30/2014 7:31:45 PM, rockwater wrote:
There isn't really any point in trying to "win" a transubstantiation argument online is there?

Well, that's kind of the point of this web page--to have formal debates. I see the discussion forums as just a bonus, but not the main purpose of this page.

I'm all for discussion, but I look at debating as kind of a game, and like all games, it requires strategy. One of my strategies is to not reveal my arguments before the debate takes place. I like to use the element of surprise. Since I'm still holding out for a formal debate on transubstantiation, I can't really discuss it with you right now.

The debate over transubstatiation might as well be "Is there such a thing as the office of a priest in the New Testament Church?" The Catholic position falls (and falls hard) if the office of a priest cannot be proven, IMO.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Composer
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1/31/2014 12:34:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 4:38:26 PM, Dogknox wrote:
The Catholic Church is the largest Charity by far in the world . . . .

Rates No. 5 in the USA

http://www.forbes.com...

You agent of Satan YOU! (Mark 8:33) catholic Satanic verses
Dogknox
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1/31/2014 6:16:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 11:42:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/30/2014 7:47:41 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/30/2014 7:31:45 PM, rockwater wrote:
There isn't really any point in trying to "win" a transubstantiation argument online is there?

Well, that's kind of the point of this web page--to have formal debates. I see the discussion forums as just a bonus, but not the main purpose of this page.

I'm all for discussion, but I look at debating as kind of a game, and like all games, it requires strategy. One of my strategies is to not reveal my arguments before the debate takes place. I like to use the element of surprise. Since I'm still holding out for a formal debate on transubstantiation, I can't really discuss it with you right now.

The debate over transubstatiation might as well be "Is there such a thing as the office of a priest in the New Testament Church?" The Catholic position falls (and falls hard) if the office of a priest cannot be proven, IMO.

Priests offer Sacrifice!!!
philochristos Bishops are PRIESTS they offer to God a perfect sacred gift; "His only Son"!
..............
DICTIONARY DOT COM!
priest [preest] Show IPA
noun
1.a person whose office it is to perform religious rites, and especially to make sacrificial offerings.
2.a. a person ordained to the sacerdotal or pastoral office; a member of the clergy; minister.
b. (in hierarchical churches) a member of the clergy of the order next below that of bishop, authorized to carry out the Christian ministry.
3. a minister of any religion.

Bishops are called Priests; they perform religious rites, especially to make sacrificial offerings.
Ignatius of Antioch ism a BISHOP..
He said.. "Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans"8:2 [A.D. 110])."

philochristos All PRIESTS in the Old and New Testaments "Make OFFERINGS to God!"
Thus the Catholic Church holds up priests as a member of the clergy of the order next below that of bishop, authorized to carry out the Christian ministry.

philochristos THINK: In the word of God communion means; COMMUNION with God !
1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

The Apostles BLESSED and they BROKE the bread just as priests do!

Priests are ALWAYS a Go between, man and God! Exactly as the Catholic Church has always done!

annanicole The word Trinity is not in the bible, with your line of reasoning there cannot be; God the Trinity!!!
FACT: You cannot prove; "The Only Church Jesus established did not offer to God the Holy Body and Blood Of Jesus"! This would be the ONLY way fro you to prove there are NO priests in the Church Jesus established!
Scriptures tell you they eat the flesh of Jesus!

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

Hebrews 5:1
Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
annanicole
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1/31/2014 6:31:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 6:16:54 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/30/2014 11:42:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/30/2014 7:47:41 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/30/2014 7:31:45 PM, rockwater wrote:
There isn't really any point in trying to "win" a transubstantiation argument online is there?

Well, that's kind of the point of this web page--to have formal debates. I see the discussion forums as just a bonus, but not the main purpose of this page.

I'm all for discussion, but I look at debating as kind of a game, and like all games, it requires strategy. One of my strategies is to not reveal my arguments before the debate takes place. I like to use the element of surprise. Since I'm still holding out for a formal debate on transubstantiation, I can't really discuss it with you right now.

The debate over transubstatiation might as well be "Is there such a thing as the office of a priest in the New Testament Church?" The Catholic position falls (and falls hard) if the office of a priest cannot be proven, IMO.

Priests offer Sacrifice!!!
philochristos Bishops are PRIESTS they offer to God a perfect sacred gift; "His only Son"!
..............
DICTIONARY DOT COM!
priest [preest] Show IPA
noun
1.a person whose office it is to perform religious rites, and especially to make sacrificial offerings.
2.a. a person ordained to the sacerdotal or pastoral office; a member of the clergy; minister.
b. (in hierarchical churches) a member of the clergy of the order next below that of bishop, authorized to carry out the Christian ministry.
3. a minister of any religion.

Bishops are called Priests; they perform religious rites, especially to make sacrificial offerings.
Ignatius of Antioch ism a BISHOP..
He said.. "Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans"8:2 [A.D. 110])."

philochristos All PRIESTS in the Old and New Testaments "Make OFFERINGS to God!"
Thus the Catholic Church holds up priests as a member of the clergy of the order next below that of bishop, authorized to carry out the Christian ministry.

philochristos THINK: In the word of God communion means; COMMUNION with God !
1 Corinthians 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

The Apostles BLESSED and they BROKE the bread just as priests do!

Priests are ALWAYS a Go between, man and God! Exactly as the Catholic Church has always done!

annanicole The word Trinity is not in the bible, with your line of reasoning there cannot be; God the Trinity!!!
FACT: You cannot prove; "The Only Church Jesus established did not offer to God the Holy Body and Blood Of Jesus"! This would be the ONLY way fro you to prove there are NO priests in the Church Jesus established!
Scriptures tell you they eat the flesh of Jesus!

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

Hebrews 5:1
Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.

Dogknox: "annanicole The word Trinity is not in the bible, with your line of reasoning there cannot be; God the Trinity!!!"

Anna: Are you admitting that, in the New Testament, there is no such office in the church as a priest? You certainly never found one that last time you tried.

FYI, Jesus Christ is our High Priest - and HE offered HIMSELF. That ended that. Now all Christians are priests, and we present ourselves as a living sacrifice. There is absolutely no hint at all of this peculiar Catholic idea of "priests". They made it up! The Holy Spirit never led them into such a thing, which proves that they weren't led by the Spirit at all.

You admitted before that YOU are a priest. That must have wounded you, because you are back on it. Is Jesus Christ your high priest? If so, that's all you need.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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1/31/2014 6:33:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
By the way, I can take the Bible and prove the doctrine of the trinity. It is taught by necessary implication. The Catholic idea of a priest is, however, taught neither directly nor by implication.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
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1/31/2014 7:31:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 6:31:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/31/2014 6:16:54 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/30/2014 11:42:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/30/2014 7:47:41 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/30/2014 7:31:45 PM, rockwater wrote:
There isn't really any point in trying to "win" a transubstantiation argument online is there?

Hebrews 5:1
Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.


Dogknox: "annanicole The word Trinity is not in the bible, with your line of reasoning there cannot be; God the Trinity!!!"

Anna: Are you admitting that, in the New Testament, there is no such office in the church as a priest? You certainly never found one that last time you tried.

FYI, Jesus Christ is our High Priest - and HE offered HIMSELF. That ended that. Now all Christians are priests, and we present ourselves as a living sacrifice. There is absolutely no hint at all of this peculiar Catholic idea of "priests". They made it up! The Holy Spirit never led them into such a thing, which proves that they weren't led by the Spirit at all.

You admitted before that YOU are a priest. That must have wounded you, because you are back on it. Is Jesus Christ your high priest? If so, that's all you need.

Your words are confusing (as always) Now all Christians are priests, and we present ourselves as a living sacrifice. There is absolutely no hint at all of this peculiar Catholic idea of "priests".

?? Let me get this straight "Christians are priests, but there is no priests in the Church!??"

Yes Jesus is High Priest!!! Thus there are lesser priests!!!
annanicole ALL PRIESTS offer sacrifice!!! Thus all Catholics are priests to some degree! The office of BISHOP is a priesthood!
Bishops offer Eucharist thus they are PRIESTS!!

The word Eucharist is NOT in the bible but all know it means the; "Sacred Body and Blood of Jesus"!

ALL PRIESTS offer sacrifice!!!
The Catholic priest at the Alter, offers to God the sacred Body and Blood of Jesus, we KNOW it is an acceptable offering because it is God' only Son!
The Catholic also offers to God this same GIFT "Through the Priest" at the alter!
ALL priests offer to God sacrifice from the people!

THINK: In the Old Testament a MAN brought an OFFERING to the PRIEST, the Priest was the go between God and the man!! Priest offer sacrifice!

ALL PRIESTS offer sacrifice!!! High priests and lesser priest all need a sacrifice!

All offer to God sacrifice "Fasting, Prayer and Alms giving" are all sacrifice!!! Thus all are lesser priests!!

God through the Priest at the alter gives Catholic's a sacred gift... His only Son Jesus! We KNOW it is a sacred gift because it is God' only son Jesus! God uses the Priest at the Alter as a Go between, between Him and his Church!

The priest at the alter represents Jesus! I see the priest, I hear the voice of the priest but all Catholics know it is Jesus through his priest that makes the sacred offering to the Father and it is the Father through Jesus that give the Catholic his sacred gift! The gift of LIFE!

The Catholic Church has always had priests....
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter].

The BISHOP Timothy is a PRIEST! Just as the scriptures tell you!
1 Timothy 4:14 (DRA)
Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood

1 Timothy 4:14 (WYC)
Do not thou little care (for) the grace which is in thee [Do not thou despise, or little charge, the grace that is in thee], that is given to thee by prophecy, with putting on of the hands of [the] priesthood.

Catholic Answers
Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14"15).
Although the terms "bishop," "priest," and "deacon" were somewhat fluid in the apostolic age, by the beginning of the second century they had achieved the fixed form in which they are used today to designate the three offices whose functions are clearly distinct in the New Testament.

Jesus offers to the Father in heaven his sacred sacrifice! CONTINUALLY!!!
The Old Testament predicted that Christ would offer a true sacrifice to God using bread and wine.
Genesis 14:18
New International Version (NIV)
Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High,

Psalm 110 predicted Christ would be a priest "after the order of Melchizedek," that is, offering a sacrifice in bread and wine.
Psalm 110:4
The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."


annanicole You must look for some sacrifice other than Calvary, since it was not under the form of bread and wine.
The Catholic Mass offers Bread and Wine thus the TRUE offering predicted by Scripture prophesy!!
Dogknox
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1/31/2014 7:47:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 6:54:15 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/29/2014 5:42:08 PM, rockwater wrote:
I am a Roman Catholic, albeit a liberal and heretical one. I'm not going to try and justify the RCC's teachings on women's ordination or human sexuality. As for the RCC's other teachings, which I may or may not agree with in real life, I'd like to defend them against anyone who wants to critique them - or explain them as best I can to someone who does not understand them. So let's do that on this thread. Please be respectful.

I've been wanting to debate a Catholic on transubstantiation if you're open to that. I mean a formal debate, though, not on this thread.

I point out... Christians have always eaten the flesh and drank the blood of Jesus in the form of bread and wine!

Note the date 110 A.D. Ignatius of Antioch
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

DID YOU SEE IT??? so too, as we have been taught,
CynicalDiogenes
Posts: 147
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1/31/2014 9:03:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/29/2014 5:42:08 PM, rockwater wrote:
I am a Roman Catholic, albeit a liberal and heretical one. I'm not going to try and justify the RCC's teachings on women's ordination or human sexuality. As for the RCC's other teachings, which I may or may not agree with in real life, I'd like to defend them against anyone who wants to critique them - or explain them as best I can to someone who does not understand them. So let's do that on this thread. Please be respectful.

I used to actually be like you, and used to wander in Advaitic Hinduism and then Buddhism as a teen until two years ago.There is no point in trying to defend the faith if you don't follow and believe in it.No point in having faith and knowledge without works and actual experience.

read the real reasons why the catholic faith has such unpopular teachings, and why it keeps them up inspite of so much criticism.Try to live the faith before calling yourself a catholic.
Seat of Wisdom, pray for us who turn to you!

Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.-St.Thomas Aquinas
All the darkness in the world cannot extinguish the light of a single candle.~ St.Francis of Assisi
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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1/31/2014 11:38:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 7:31:24 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/31/2014 6:31:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/31/2014 6:16:54 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/30/2014 11:42:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/30/2014 7:47:41 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/30/2014 7:31:45 PM, rockwater wrote:
There isn't really any point in trying to "win" a transubstantiation argument online is there?

Hebrews 5:1
Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.


Dogknox: "annanicole The word Trinity is not in the bible, with your line of reasoning there cannot be; God the Trinity!!!"

Anna: Are you admitting that, in the New Testament, there is no such office in the church as a priest? You certainly never found one that last time you tried.

FYI, Jesus Christ is our High Priest - and HE offered HIMSELF. That ended that. Now all Christians are priests, and we present ourselves as a living sacrifice. There is absolutely no hint at all of this peculiar Catholic idea of "priests". They made it up! The Holy Spirit never led them into such a thing, which proves that they weren't led by the Spirit at all.

You admitted before that YOU are a priest. That must have wounded you, because you are back on it. Is Jesus Christ your high priest? If so, that's all you need.

Your words are confusing (as always) Now all Christians are priests, and we present ourselves as a living sacrifice. There is absolutely no hint at all of this peculiar Catholic idea of "priests".

?? Let me get this straight "Christians are priests, but there is no priests in the Church!??"

What you need to get straight is that all Christians are priests, and there is no other such office in the church. I think if you ever learned that, you'd be miles ahead.


Yes Jesus is High Priest!!! Thus there are lesser priests!!!

You betcha! And every Christian is one.

annanicole ALL PRIESTS offer sacrifice!!! Thus all Catholics are priests to some degree! The office of BISHOP is a priesthood!

Not any moreso than any other Christian.

Bishops offer Eucharist thus they are PRIESTS!!

Bishops do not offer the Eucharist, or Lord's Supper, any more than the next Christian.

The word Eucharist is NOT in the bible but all know it means the; "Sacred Body and Blood of Jesus"!

ALL PRIESTS offer sacrifice!!!

That's right, and all Christians are priests.

The Catholic priest at the Alter, offers to God the sacred Body and Blood of Jesus, we KNOW it is an acceptable offering because it is God' only Son!

Too late. Jesus Christ already did that, and there is no such thing as the so-called "Catholic priest".

The Catholic also offers to God this same GIFT "Through the Priest" at the alter!
ALL priests offer to God sacrifice from the people!

So you think you are some sort of a priest-by-proxy? You are a priest. Why don't you go directly to your high priest? Who said there is another one in the middle?

THINK: In the Old Testament a MAN brought an OFFERING to the PRIEST, the Priest was the go between God and the man!! Priest offer sacrifice!

You THINK! The OT high priest was a type or figure of Jesus Christ. The high priest offered the sacrifices.

ALL PRIESTS offer sacrifice!!! High priests and lesser priest all need a sacrifice!

Yeah, Dogknox, and there is no "High Priests". There is but ONE High Priest. Everyone else on this planet who is a priest at all is just that ... a priest.

All offer to God sacrifice "Fasting, Prayer and Alms giving" are all sacrifice!!! Thus all are lesser priests!!

There is no such thing as a "lesser priest". Where on earth did you come up with that stuff? There a High Priest, and there are priests.

God through the Priest at the alter gives Catholic's a sacred gift... His only Son Jesus! We KNOW it is a sacred gift because it is God' only son Jesus! God uses the Priest at the Alter as a Go between, between Him and his Church!

No, He didn't. God never, never, never used a human "priest at an altar" as a go-between between Himself and the church. Jesus Christ does that.


The priest at the alter represents Jesus! I see the priest, I hear the voice of the priest but all Catholics know it is Jesus through his priest that makes the sacred offering to the Father and it is the Father through Jesus that give the Catholic his sacred gift! The gift of LIFE!

Pfffffffffffffffffft. Find an example of such nonsense in the NT.



The BISHOP Timothy is a PRIEST! Just as the scriptures tell you!
1 Timothy 4:14 (DRA)
Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood

The word is "presbytery" - not "priesthood"

1 Timothy 4:14 (WYC)
Do not thou little care (for) the grace which is in thee [Do not thou despise, or little charge, the grace that is in thee], that is given to thee by prophecy, with putting on of the hands of [the] priesthood.

Again, the word is presbytery - not "priesthood"

Catholic Answers
Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14"15).
Although the terms "bishop," "priest," and "deacon" were somewhat fluid in the apostolic age, by the beginning of the second century they had achieved the fixed form in which they are used today to designate the three offices whose functions are clearly distinct in the New Testament.

Dogknox, you failed miserably last time to provide one iota of evidence of the office of a priest in the entire New Testament. You finally gave up and told everyone that the Catholic Church had the right to make up the whole thing if it wanted to. There is not a single Greek-English Lexicon on the planet that states that "presbyter" should be translated "priest" - or has anything to do with a priest. Any such translation is a perversion.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
Posts: 5,043
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2/1/2014 10:44:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 11:38:08 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/31/2014 7:31:24 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/31/2014 6:31:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/31/2014 6:16:54 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/30/2014 11:42:53 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/30/2014 7:47:41 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/30/2014 7:31:45 PM, rockwater wrote:
There isn't really any point in trying to "win" a transubstantiation argument online is there?

Hebrews 5:1
Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.


Dogknox: "annanicole The word Trinity is not in the bible, with your line of reasoning there cannot be; God the Trinity!!!"

Anna: Are you admitting that, in the New Testament, there is no such office in the church as a priest? You certainly never found one that last time you tried.

FYI, Jesus Christ is our High Priest - and HE offered HIMSELF. That ended that. Now all Christians are priests, and we present ourselves as a living sacrifice. There is absolutely no hint at all of this peculiar Catholic idea of "priests". They made it up! The Holy Spirit never led them into such a thing, which proves that they weren't led by the Spirit at all.

You admitted before that YOU are a priest. That must have wounded you, because you are back on it. Is Jesus Christ your high priest? If so, that's all you need.

Your words are confusing (as always) Now all Christians are priests, and we present ourselves as a living sacrifice. There is absolutely no hint at all of this peculiar Catholic idea of "priests".

?? Let me get this straight "Christians are priests, but there is no priests in the Church!??"

What you need to get straight is that all Christians are priests, and there is no other such office in the church. I think if you ever learned that, you'd be miles ahead.


Yes Jesus is High Priest!!! Thus there are lesser priests!!!

You betcha! And every Christian is one.

annanicole ALL PRIESTS offer sacrifice!!! Thus all Catholics are priests to some degree! The office of BISHOP is a priesthood!

Not any moreso than any other Christian.

Bishops offer Eucharist thus they are PRIESTS!!

Bishops do not offer the Eucharist, or Lord's Supper, any more than the next Christian.

The word Eucharist is NOT in the bible but all know it means the; "Sacred Body and Blood of Jesus"!

ALL PRIESTS offer sacrifice!!!

That's right, and all Christians are priests.

The Catholic priest at the Alter, offers to God the sacred Body and Blood of Jesus, we KNOW it is an acceptable offering because it is God' only Son!

Too late. Jesus Christ already did that, and there is no such thing as the so-called "Catholic priest".

The Catholic also offers to God this same GIFT "Through the Priest" at the alter!
ALL priests offer to God sacrifice from the people!

So you think you are some sort of a priest-by-proxy? You are a priest. Why don't you go directly to your high priest? Who said there is another one in the middle?

THINK: In the Old Testament a MAN brought an OFFERING to the PRIEST, the Priest was the go between God and the man!! Priest offer sacrifice!

You THINK! The OT high priest was a type or figure of Jesus Christ. The high priest offered the sacrifices.

ALL PRIESTS offer sacrifice!!! High priests and lesser priest all need a sacrifice!

Yeah, Dogknox, and there is no "High Priests". There is but ONE High Priest. Everyone else on this planet who is a priest at all is just that ... a priest.

All offer to God sacrifice "Fasting, Prayer and Alms giving" are all sacrifice!!! Thus all are lesser priests!!

There is no such thing as a "lesser priest". Where on earth did you come up with that stuff? There a High Priest, and there are priests.

God through the Priest at the alter gives Catholic's a sacred gift... His only Son Jesus! We KNOW it is a sacred gift because it is God' only son Jesus! God uses the Priest at the Alter as a Go between, between Him and his Church!

No, He didn't. God never, never, never used a human "priest at an altar" as a go-between between Himself and the church. Jesus Christ does that.


The priest at the alter represents Jesus! I see the priest, I hear the voice of the priest but all Catholics know it is Jesus through his priest that makes the sacred offering to the Father and it is the Father through Jesus that give the Catholic his sacred gift! The gift of LIFE!

Pfffffffffffffffffft. Find an example of such nonsense in the NT.




The BISHOP Timothy is a PRIEST! Just as the scriptures tell you!
1 Timothy 4:14 (DRA)
Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood

The word is "presbytery" - not "priesthood"

1 Timothy 4:14 (WYC)
Do not thou little care (for) the grace which is in thee [Do not thou despise, or little charge, the grace that is in thee], that is given to thee by prophecy, with putting on of the hands of [the] priesthood.

Again, the word is presbytery - not "priesthood"

Catholic Answers
Priests (presbuteroi) are also known as "presbyters" or "elders." In fact, the English term "priest" is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14"15).
Although the terms "bishop," "priest," and "deacon" were somewhat fluid in the apostolic age, by the beginning of the second century they had achieved the fixed form in which they are used today to designate the three offices whose functions are clearly distinct in the New Testament.


Dogknox, you failed miserably last time to provide one iota of evidence of the office of a priest in the entire New Testament. You finally gave up and told everyone that the Catholic Church had the right to make up the whole thing if it wanted to. There is not a single Greek-English Lexicon on the planet that states that "presbyter" should be translated "priest" - or has anything to do with a priest. Any such translation is a perversion.

Your words... What you need to get straight is that all Christians are priests, and there is no other such office in the church. I think if you ever learned that, you'd be miles ahead.

I reply: Christians OFFER to God sacrifice... "Prayer, fasting and alms"!
Christians are PRIESTS!
Jesus one established Catholic church is a church full of priests.. Lesser and greater priests!
At the alter and from the pews Catholic' make their sacred offering of Jesus to God!

Your words... Come from just that YOU.. not the scriptures.. Bishops do not offer the Eucharist, or Lord's Supper, any more than the next Christian.

Bishops are the linage of the Apostles!!!
Jesus empowered them at the last supper to offer his sacrifice!!
19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

DO YOU SEE IT?? "DO THIS"!!!!!

The Bishops DO IT and have been doing it for 2000 years!!!
srehtiw
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2/1/2014 12:55:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/30/2014 11:20:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!"

Anna: Who knows what they teach? Every time something is cited from one of their "infallible leaders", they deny it and say he was only expressing his opinion. Who's to know exactly when papa is speaking infallibly versus only shooting off at the mouth? I've repeatedly asked for a complete list of infallible utterances by papas. It looks to me like someone ought to be able to obtain one by writing the Vatican. If anybody can provide an official list of infallible teachings, I'd like to see it.

Complete list.
The virgin Mary had an immaculate conception.
The virgin Mary was assumed into heaven both body and soul.
These are the only 2 completely infallible teachings in the religion.
I do know that the Catholic Church has in the past called the separation of church and state a pernicious evil. The pope outright said it. Verbatim. They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States. If the Catholic Church is in the minority, they are big on freedom of religion. They become very broadminded. If they ever have a nice majority, they will do all they can to oppose everyone else.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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2/1/2014 1:18:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 12:55:02 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 1/30/2014 11:20:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!"

Anna: Who knows what they teach? Every time something is cited from one of their "infallible leaders", they deny it and say he was only expressing his opinion. Who's to know exactly when papa is speaking infallibly versus only shooting off at the mouth? I've repeatedly asked for a complete list of infallible utterances by papas. It looks to me like someone ought to be able to obtain one by writing the Vatican. If anybody can provide an official list of infallible teachings, I'd like to see it.

Complete list.
The virgin Mary had an immaculate conception.
The virgin Mary was assumed into heaven both body and soul.
These are the only 2 completely infallible teachings in the religion.
I do know that the Catholic Church has in the past called the separation of church and state a pernicious evil. The pope outright said it. Verbatim. They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States. If the Catholic Church is in the minority, they are big on freedom of religion. They become very broadminded. If they ever have a nice majority, they will do all they can to oppose everyone else.

That is an official list? What about the teaching that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
srehtiw
Posts: 491
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2/1/2014 1:39:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 1:18:02 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/1/2014 12:55:02 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 1/30/2014 11:20:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!"

Anna: Who knows what they teach? Every time something is cited from one of their "infallible leaders", they deny it and say he was only expressing his opinion. Who's to know exactly when papa is speaking infallibly versus only shooting off at the mouth? I've repeatedly asked for a complete list of infallible utterances by papas. It looks to me like someone ought to be able to obtain one by writing the Vatican. If anybody can provide an official list of infallible teachings, I'd like to see it.

Complete list.
The virgin Mary had an immaculate conception.
The virgin Mary was assumed into heaven both body and soul.
These are the only 2 completely infallible teachings in the religion.
I do know that the Catholic Church has in the past called the separation of church and state a pernicious evil. The pope outright said it. Verbatim. They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States. If the Catholic Church is in the minority, they are big on freedom of religion. They become very broadminded. If they ever have a nice majority, they will do all they can to oppose everyone else.

That is an official list? What about the teaching that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

I think that is meant to go without saying.
Dogknox
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2/1/2014 2:16:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2014 1:39:41 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 2/1/2014 1:18:02 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 2/1/2014 12:55:02 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 1/30/2014 11:20:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
Dogknox: "If you are Catholic then you accept the teaching of the Catholic Church ALL OF THEM!!"

Anna: Who knows what they teach? Every time something is cited from one of their "infallible leaders", they deny it and say he was only expressing his opinion. Who's to know exactly when papa is speaking infallibly versus only shooting off at the mouth? I've repeatedly asked for a complete list of infallible utterances by papas. It looks to me like someone ought to be able to obtain one by writing the Vatican. If anybody can provide an official list of infallible teachings, I'd like to see it.

Complete list.
The virgin Mary had an immaculate conception.
The virgin Mary was assumed into heaven both body and soul.
These are the only 2 completely infallible teachings in the religion.
I do know that the Catholic Church has in the past called the separation of church and state a pernicious evil. The pope outright said it. Verbatim. They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States. If the Catholic Church is in the minority, they are big on freedom of religion. They become very broadminded. If they ever have a nice majority, they will do all they can to oppose everyone else.

That is an official list? What about the teaching that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

I think that is meant to go without saying.

annanicole The public school system cannot mention God!
They cannot say any prayers.
They teach children how to properly put a condom on an erect penis.
All in the public school system are not allowed to mention God!!

The public schools system is secular they teach; God is not in our lives!

Your words are twisted! They also deny freedom of religion as well as the public school system as it exists in the United States.
The Catholic Church fights against: The Atheist agenda of separation of Church and State!
The Catholic Church fights to keep Jesus in Christmas!
Merry Christmas instead of; Happy Holidays!
We fight to keep the Nativity Scene in front of City Hall!
Give your head a shake!

The Catholic Church is the Bulwark and foundation of Christianity! She defends the weak, sick the downtrodden the unborn!

annanicole You would not be Christian today if the Catholic Church did not fight against the evil Satan keeps trying to bring into the world!
There would be no Christians today if the Holy Catholic Church did not fight against the many heretics over the past two thousand years!
annanicole Clearly you are in league with Satan you have been blinded from the truth!

There is no official list....No need for a list!!
The church teaches the truth ALWAYS has!!!
Trinity
Incarnation
Jesus is present in the bread!
Mary is mother of God.
Mary was assumed into heaven!
The bible is the inspired words of God!
Bishops have God' authority to protect doctrine and TEACH!
The Catholic Church is the body of Jesus!
The Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church FOREVER!
Jesus remains ALWAYS WITH his established Catholic Church!
The Catholic Church has all of God' authority to teach all nations!
Baptism saves!
Baptism if for Infant!
Confess your sins in Church to have them forgiven!
The Catholic Church has the authority of God to retain sins!
Bishops have a direct linage back two thousand years to the Apostles..The ONLY Apostolic Church!
etc
All are truths taught and defended as truth by the Holy Catholic Church!
Dogknox
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2/1/2014 2:30:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2014 7:47:37 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/30/2014 6:54:15 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 1/29/2014 5:42:08 PM, rockwater wrote:
I am a Roman Catholic, albeit a liberal and heretical one. I'm not going to try and justify the RCC's teachings on women's ordination or human sexuality. As for the RCC's other teachings, which I may or may not agree with in real life, I'd like to defend them against anyone who wants to critique them - or explain them as best I can to someone who does not understand them. So let's do that on this thread. Please be respectful.

I've been wanting to debate a Catholic on transubstantiation if you're open to that. I mean a formal debate, though, not on this thread.

I point out... Christians have always eaten the flesh and drank the blood of Jesus in the form of bread and wine!

Note the date 110 A.D. Ignatius of Antioch
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr
"We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus" (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

DID YOU SEE IT??? so too, as we have been taught,

philochristos You there?? Cat got your tongue??
Christians have always eaten the flesh and drank the blood of Jesus in the form of bread and wine!

Note.. ALL the church Fathers, every single Early Church Father is a CATHOLIC!! All ate the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread! All drank his living forever blood in the form of wine!
philochristos Even Martin Luther and Calvin the first "de-Formers" sixteen hundred years AFTER Jesus ate and drank the sacred flesh and blood of Jesus!