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Ignosticism

sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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2/11/2014 7:21:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

I don't think it's a good position considering most religions do describe God quite well in their holy books.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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2/11/2014 7:41:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 7:21:02 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

I don't think it's a good position considering most religions do describe God quite well in their holy books.

Do they?

Describe the christian god and the hebrew god from whence he came.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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2/11/2014 7:55:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 7:41:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/11/2014 7:21:02 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

I don't think it's a good position considering most religions do describe God quite well in their holy books.

Do they?

Describe the christian god and the hebrew god from whence he came.

Certainly. The Bible describes God as a being who has the characteristics of something like a huge, mutated bird. He has two sets of wings on his back, diadems (crowns) on his head, a back like a human's, which is 500 cubits (a cubit is approximately two feet) tall, he has a pair of feet and a flowing cape of pure white. Those are the characteristics I have remembered from reading the Bible at Catholic school.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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2/11/2014 8:14:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 7:55:56 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/11/2014 7:41:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/11/2014 7:21:02 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

I don't think it's a good position considering most religions do describe God quite well in their holy books.

Do they?

Describe the christian god and the hebrew god from whence he came.

Certainly. The Bible describes God as a being who has the characteristics of something like a huge, mutated bird. He has two sets of wings on his back, diadems (crowns) on his head, a back like a human's, which is 500 cubits (a cubit is approximately two feet) tall, he has a pair of feet and a flowing cape of pure white. Those are the characteristics I have remembered from reading the Bible at Catholic school.

Citations? Please?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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2/11/2014 8:16:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 8:14:48 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/11/2014 7:55:56 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/11/2014 7:41:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/11/2014 7:21:02 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

I don't think it's a good position considering most religions do describe God quite well in their holy books.

Do they?

Describe the christian god and the hebrew god from whence he came.

Certainly. The Bible describes God as a being who has the characteristics of something like a huge, mutated bird. He has two sets of wings on his back, diadems (crowns) on his head, a back like a human's, which is 500 cubits (a cubit is approximately two feet) tall, he has a pair of feet and a flowing cape of pure white. Those are the characteristics I have remembered from reading the Bible at Catholic school.

Citations? Please?

I don't remember, look the attributes up.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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2/11/2014 8:30:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 8:16:34 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/11/2014 8:14:48 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/11/2014 7:55:56 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/11/2014 7:41:21 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 2/11/2014 7:21:02 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

I don't think it's a good position considering most religions do describe God quite well in their holy books.

Do they?

Describe the christian god and the hebrew god from whence he came.

Certainly. The Bible describes God as a being who has the characteristics of something like a huge, mutated bird. He has two sets of wings on his back, diadems (crowns) on his head, a back like a human's, which is 500 cubits (a cubit is approximately two feet) tall, he has a pair of feet and a flowing cape of pure white. Those are the characteristics I have remembered from reading the Bible at Catholic school.

Citations? Please?

I don't remember, look the attributes up.

So you are a liar with a bad memory! That makes for a very bad LIAR.

Your claim to being a really BAD LIAR is noted.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Dogknox
Posts: 5,056
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2/11/2014 10:20:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

sdavio Good to meet you..
From what I understand "Freemasons" are Gnostic's...
Their 50 steps of enlightenment ends with... At the last step "You are a God"!
Self enlightenment also as in the "Freemasons" is a signature of; "The Church of Scientology"!!!
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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2/11/2014 10:13:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 10:20:59 AM, Dogknox wrote:
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

sdavio Good to meet you..
From what I understand "Freemasons" are Gnostic's...
Their 50 steps of enlightenment ends with... At the last step "You are a God"!
Self enlightenment also as in the "Freemasons" is a signature of; "The Church of Scientology"!!!

I don't understand. What does that have to do with this thread?
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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2/11/2014 10:16:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

It's just agnosticism along with some semantic crap.
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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2/11/2014 10:22:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 10:16:57 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

It's just agnosticism along with some semantic crap.

The semantic crap precludes the entire discussion either way, which seems pretty significant if it's accurate.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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2/11/2014 10:23:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 10:22:53 PM, sdavio wrote:
At 2/11/2014 10:16:57 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

It's just agnosticism along with some semantic crap.

The semantic crap precludes the entire discussion either way, which seems pretty significant if it's accurate.

The "debate" really depends on which theist you're debating with.
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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2/11/2014 10:25:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 10:23:39 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 2/11/2014 10:22:53 PM, sdavio wrote:
At 2/11/2014 10:16:57 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

It's just agnosticism along with some semantic crap.

The semantic crap precludes the entire discussion either way, which seems pretty significant if it's accurate.

The "debate" really depends on which theist you're debating with.

Can you suggest a theist who has a sufficient definition of 'God'?
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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2/11/2014 10:58:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

If "God" is undefined, then, like the words "eternal" and "infinite", it has no meaning. If "God" is defined, then, we have given "God" meaning and are, therefore, God's creators.

What can be known of something that has no meaning, other than it has no meaning? This is a very difficult question; because, it contradicts logic. If it had no meaning, it would be nothing, rather than something; and, being nothing, we would have nothing to talk about. However, having meaning, its value is given by the one who evaluates, or appraises it. We have defined "God"; we have given "God" meaning; and, we alone can give God value.
LAZARUS77
Posts: 109
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2/11/2014 11:01:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You cant describe God because he is beyond time & space. he is uncreated but all elements in the universe were made, he is out from his creation. there is no any physical description of god. so the only way we can describe him is through attributes. and if someone makes something to a "God" from his creation he is an idiot. it doenst matter what humans birds sea creatures.., at the end of the day everybody going to excrete something smelly.
No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he desires for himself. - Prophet Muhammad saw
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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2/11/2014 11:12:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 11:01:10 PM, LAZARUS77 wrote:
You cant describe God because he is beyond time & space. he is uncreated but all elements in the universe were made, he is out from his creation. there is no any physical description of god. so the only way we can describe him is through attributes. and if someone makes something to a "God" from his creation he is an idiot. it doenst matter what humans birds sea creatures.., at the end of the day everybody going to excrete something smelly.

My point exactly. If something is "indefinable", then, by definition, it has no meaning. You can't say something has no definition, then, set out to tell others that which it is.
LAZARUS77
Posts: 109
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2/11/2014 11:30:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 11:12:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 2/11/2014 11:01:10 PM, LAZARUS77 wrote:
You cant describe God because he is beyond time & space. he is uncreated but all elements in the universe were made, he is out from his creation. there is no any physical description of god. so the only way we can describe him is through attributes. and if someone makes something to a "God" from his creation he is an idiot. it doenst matter what humans birds sea creatures.., at the end of the day everybody going to excrete something smelly.

My point exactly. If something is "indefinable", then, by definition, it has no meaning. You can't say something has no definition, then, set out to tell others that which it is.

he has no meaning through physical description - out of time & space.but he is cby his attributes. for example in Islam there are general name for God - 99 names of Allah let take some names:

AL-W"SI' - The All-Encompassing, The All-Embracing
AS-SAM"' The All-Hearing
AL-'AL"MThe All-Knowing
Al-QADIR The All Powerful

Say: He is Allah, the One; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten, and there is none like unto Him. [Al-Quran 112:1-4

There is no element/living thing in this universe that possess these qualities. so you trying to push go down God to your inferioir definition of him, not only you but many people make humans or animal as Gods. AND NO YOU CANT DECRIBE HIM IN PHYSICAL WAY BECUASE HE IS GOD THERE IS NONE LIKE UNTO HIM.
No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he desires for himself. - Prophet Muhammad saw
Romanii
Posts: 4,851
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2/11/2014 11:49:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 10:25:32 PM, sdavio wrote:
At 2/11/2014 10:23:39 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 2/11/2014 10:22:53 PM, sdavio wrote:
At 2/11/2014 10:16:57 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 2/11/2014 4:22:33 AM, sdavio wrote:
This position holds that 'God' is as a term, not clearly defined, and therefore belief / disbelief is impossible since you can only believe in something if you know what it is.

"..while agnosticism states that "you can't really know either way" regarding the existence or non-existence of God, ignosticism posits that "you haven't even agreed on what you're discussing.""

http://rationalwiki.org...

Most definitions of God only reference his actions, or adjectives about his character ('benevolent', etc.) but do not comment on his actual substance, other than it's being 'unknowable'.

What do you think about this position? Can 'God' be defined? Can you believe in something without knowing what it is?

It's just agnosticism along with some semantic crap.

The semantic crap precludes the entire discussion either way, which seems pretty significant if it's accurate.

The "debate" really depends on which theist you're debating with.

Can you suggest a theist who has a sufficient definition of 'God'?

Almost all of them have a definition which is sufficient enough to them personally...
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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2/12/2014 8:56:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/11/2014 11:30:35 PM, LAZARUS77 wrote:
At 2/11/2014 11:12:13 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 2/11/2014 11:01:10 PM, LAZARUS77 wrote:
You cant describe God because he is beyond time & space. he is uncreated but all elements in the universe were made, he is out from his creation. there is no any physical description of god. so the only way we can describe him is through attributes. and if someone makes something to a "God" from his creation he is an idiot. it doenst matter what humans birds sea creatures.., at the end of the day everybody going to excrete something smelly.

My point exactly. If something is "indefinable", then, by definition, it has no meaning. You can't say something has no definition, then, set out to tell others that which it is.

he has no meaning through physical description - out of time & space.but he is cby his attributes. for example in Islam there are general name for God - 99 names of Allah let take some names:

AL-W"SI' - The All-Encompassing, The All-Embracing
AS-SAM"' The All-Hearing
AL-'AL"MThe All-Knowing
Al-QADIR The All Powerful

I'm sorry, but you're making absolutely no sense: Firstly, you say "God" is indescribable; then, you attempt to describe "God". Secondly, you can't name something that has no meaning. Thirdly, hearing, knowing, and power are physical phenomena; and, lastly, being absolute limits a thing; it gives it finality; it says something is complete. Something that is absolute can not be infinite in either time or space.

Say: He is Allah, the One; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten, and there is none like unto Him. [Al-Quran 112:1-4

There is no element/living thing in this universe that possess these qualities. so you trying to push go down God to your inferioir definition of him, not only you but many people make humans or animal as Gods. AND NO YOU CANT DECRIBE HIM IN PHYSICAL WAY BECUASE HE IS GOD THERE IS NONE LIKE UNTO HIM.