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Sean Carroll vs William Lane Craig

etherealvoyager
Posts: 60
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2/17/2014 3:51:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hi all, some of you may be aware of this, but Sean Carroll and William Lane Craig will be debating at the Greer-Heard Forum on the 21st of February, which is only a few days away!

On the 22nd of February, there will also be follow-ups from other speakers (Alex Rosenberg and Tim Maudlin for naturalism, and Robin Collins and James Sinclair for theism).

The theme of this entire event is: "God and Cosmology: The Existence of God in Light of Contemporary Cosmology"

This will also be streamed online.

For more information, see:
http://greerheard.com...

What do you all think?

e
bulproof
Posts: 25,272
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2/17/2014 6:42:27 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Only in America..............................
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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2/17/2014 5:21:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 3:51:22 AM, etherealvoyager wrote:
Hi all, some of you may be aware of this, but Sean Carroll and William Lane Craig will be debating at the Greer-Heard Forum on the 21st of February, which is only a few days away!

On the 22nd of February, there will also be follow-ups from other speakers (Alex Rosenberg and Tim Maudlin for naturalism, and Robin Collins and James Sinclair for theism).

The theme of this entire event is: "God and Cosmology: The Existence of God in Light of Contemporary Cosmology"

This will also be streamed online.

For more information, see:
http://greerheard.com...

What do you all think?

e

Sean Carroll has an undergrad minor in Philosophy, and seems to be familiar with philosophy in his scientific writings. Nevertheless, he is not a professional debater, and so I think Craig will win this by a pace or two, given that the focus is on cosmology and Craig has done his homework on Carroll, while Carroll hasn't, although he is an impressive cosmologist.
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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2/17/2014 5:27:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If I was Craig in that debate, I will begin by attacking Carroll's models, works and philosophical assumptions, in order to lure him into a philosophical discussion and put him in a defensive position.

If I was Carroll, I will go for succinct responses that address particular premises in Craig's arguments and academic citations, focusing on how he is defending his case as a devout follower of Christianity and not someone approaching this issue without bringing in any luggage.
biomystic
Posts: 606
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2/17/2014 5:44:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Any Christian theologian weighed down by New Testament doctrines will lose in a debate with cosmological science. This will be true of any Abrahamic religionist debating either historical or cosmological science because Jews deliberately lost the astrological connections and spiritual meanings foundational to Christian beliefs. Few know that the earthly Torah was supposed to follow the Celestial Torah but doesn't at all. Since Pauline Christianity takes the Jewish earthly Torah as spiritual foundation, Pauline Christianity thus falls with Judaism when historical science, archeology, exposes as it has, the writers of the Bible as myth-makers fabricating a complex history that never happened in order to unite three separate Canaanite tribal groups into one "Israel". With a whole series of fables pawned off as real history any Christian theologian who relies on Bible for spiritual authority will be vulnerable to historical truth as well as logical inconsistencies that pervade all Abrahamic and Pauline Christian doctrines.

So, good luck for the Christian debater but it does appear he has the debate experience upper hand..

But really, only a Celestial Torah Christian can take on modern science without bungling all sorts of religious ideas in the process.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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2/17/2014 10:06:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 6:42:27 AM, bulproof wrote:
Only in America..............................

I guess in Britain there'd be some sort of Islamic event instead, right?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/18/2014 9:40:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 5:44:23 PM, biomystic wrote:
Any Christian theologian weighed down by New Testament doctrines will lose in a debate with cosmological science. This will be true of any Abrahamic religionist debating either historical or cosmological science because Jews deliberately lost the astrological connections and spiritual meanings foundational to Christian beliefs. Few know that the earthly Torah was supposed to follow the Celestial Torah but doesn't at all. Since Pauline Christianity takes the Jewish earthly Torah as spiritual foundation, Pauline Christianity thus falls with Judaism when historical science, archeology, exposes as it has, the writers of the Bible as myth-makers fabricating a complex history that never happened in order to unite three separate Canaanite tribal groups into one "Israel". With a whole series of fables pawned off as real history any Christian theologian who relies on Bible for spiritual authority will be vulnerable to historical truth as well as logical inconsistencies that pervade all Abrahamic and Pauline Christian doctrines.

So, good luck for the Christian debater but it does appear he has the debate experience upper hand..

But really, only a Celestial Torah Christian can take on modern science without bungling all sorts of religious ideas in the process.

Your belief system isn't really backed by evidence either. There is a reason you've yet to participate in a debate. The reason is your belief system lacks any evidence what so ever. Your belief system doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You can't take on modern science with your religion either.
biomystic
Posts: 606
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2/18/2014 9:45:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Empty words. You just sling bullshite putdowns without giving a shred of evidence. That's your "science"??
biomystic
Posts: 606
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2/18/2014 10:02:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is spiritually derived cosmological information that came as part of a stream of religious visions at Easter in 1979, thirty-three years ago.

"Black Holes are the keys to the physical ending of our known universe and the keys to the discovery of the mathematical formulas which attempt to unite the puzzling similarities between the structures and forces operating in the macro-universe of stars, galaxies, and gravitational attraction, and the structures and forces of the micro-universe of atoms, sub-atomic particles, and electromagnetism. Black Holes are also the key to the mystery of where hydrogen atom come from.

Science tells us that Black Holes are the last stage in the evolution of stars of sufficient mass that have so exhausted their atomic fuel in continuous fusion reaction that the remaining atomic matter loses internal coherence and self-implodes. This inward collapse of each atom's nuclear structure in turn creates a compressive effect that allows for incredible densities to occur in the remaining star matter. These super densities in their turn create super gravitational "pulls" which become strong enough in Black Hole stars to literally suck all radiation energy still remaining back into the stars themselves including radiated light so that all that can be seen of such stars are areas of lightless space- Black Holes.

Insights I have received would add these observations: Black Holes are the recycling centers of the universe and the universe's brakes on itself, on its outward expansion created from the original Big Bang explosion of its birth. Black Holes are distributed throughout time and space matching the distribution of stars. Black Holes act as literal vacuum cleaners of all matter and energy, and most importantly, time itself. The force of gravity (or curvature of space) is so immense in the Black Hole phenomena that following Einstein's theory of relativity, timed events slow to a complete stop as they disappear altogether in the Black Hole left by the dying star.

The fabric of time and space, Einstein's time/space continuum, is left distorted around the areas of Black Holes and since these holes are distributed throughout the universe, there is a continual if gradual warping and sucking of all stars systems into the universal Black Hole annihilation network and a continuous destruction of time and space itself--Entropy.

What happens to the matter and energy that disappears from our universe into nowhere in these Black Holes? It is reborn again, synchronized in time and space as one tremendous explosion, the original Big Bang itself which occurred 15 to 20 billion years ago in our time perspective, but as Einstein pointed out, such time being completely relative to our present position in space and not absolute- there is no absolute time scale. The cycle of the universe is therefore eternally Finite-- a closed system.

Hydrogen atoms are born through the Black Hole/Big Bang transformation. Hydrogen atoms are blown out as a gigantic clouds of interstellar dust to eventually coalesce into stars again which in turn provide the conditions for further and more complex combinations of these atoms becoming the rest of the basic elements. Hydrogen atoms are the transformed and super compressed structures of Black Hole stars.

All atomic nuclear reactions release the super compressed gravitational energy that has been transformed into nuclear binding and electromagnetism. For some reason I get the impression there is danger in releasing such energy here on Earth not only from the known dangers of radiation but also from the warpage of the fabric of time surrounding our world."

No credentials in astrophysics but spiritual revelation produced these cosmological concepts 33 years ago. The Gospel of Humanity explains why Creation, our Universe, is a closed system, a done deal that's already happened from Big Bang Beginning to Black Hole Annihilation Ending. We can't see it normally of course being embedded within the time-space matrix but here and there spiritual experiences beyond time and space will give a glimpse of "real" reality which is as the Hindus knew for thousands of years as "maya", illusion, as did the Australians as "dream time". If science rejects this form of human acquisition of information it is only to science's detriment. Scientific discovery moments and spiritual revelation have much in common..
Fox-McCloud
Posts: 158
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2/20/2014 5:11:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 3:30:41 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Who do you yall think will win this?

Bill Craig. The dude wins almost all of his debates. But that is largely because of his incompetent opponents.
Abortion Is Generally Morally Reprehensible: http://www.debate.org...

The instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves - Archibald Alison

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, but to be young was very heaven! - William Wordsworth
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/20/2014 5:15:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 5:11:28 PM, Fox-McCloud wrote:
At 2/20/2014 3:30:41 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Who do you yall think will win this?

Bill Craig. The dude wins almost all of his debates. But that is largely because of his incompetent opponents.

Sean Carrol is far from incompetent.
Fox-McCloud
Posts: 158
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2/20/2014 5:24:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 5:15:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:11:28 PM, Fox-McCloud wrote:
At 2/20/2014 3:30:41 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Who do you yall think will win this?

Bill Craig. The dude wins almost all of his debates. But that is largely because of his incompetent opponents.

Sean Carrol is far from incompetent.

Oh, that was not my intended meaning, altough I can see why you would interpret my ambigious sentence like that. I do not know Sean Carrol, but since WLC wins almost all of his debates I would place my bet on him a priori. Does Carrol have any previous debates?
Abortion Is Generally Morally Reprehensible: http://www.debate.org...

The instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves - Archibald Alison

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, but to be young was very heaven! - William Wordsworth
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/20/2014 5:26:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 5:24:20 PM, Fox-McCloud wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:15:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:11:28 PM, Fox-McCloud wrote:
At 2/20/2014 3:30:41 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Who do you yall think will win this?

Bill Craig. The dude wins almost all of his debates. But that is largely because of his incompetent opponents.

Sean Carrol is far from incompetent.

Oh, that was not my intended meaning, altough I can see why you would interpret my ambigious sentence like that. I do not know Sean Carrol, but since WLC wins almost all of his debates I would place my bet on him a priori. Does Carrol have any previous debates?

That's not a priori, that is inductive reasoning you are using, but, w/e.
Fox-McCloud
Posts: 158
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2/20/2014 5:30:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 5:26:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:24:20 PM, Fox-McCloud wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:15:53 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/20/2014 5:11:28 PM, Fox-McCloud wrote:
At 2/20/2014 3:30:41 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Who do you yall think will win this?

Bill Craig. The dude wins almost all of his debates. But that is largely because of his incompetent opponents.

Sean Carrol is far from incompetent.

Oh, that was not my intended meaning, altough I can see why you would interpret my ambigious sentence like that. I do not know Sean Carrol, but since WLC wins almost all of his debates I would place my bet on him a priori. Does Carrol have any previous debates?

That's not a priori, that is inductive reasoning you are using, but, w/e.

Yeah, I know, my bad.
Abortion Is Generally Morally Reprehensible: http://www.debate.org...

The instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves - Archibald Alison

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, but to be young was very heaven! - William Wordsworth
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/21/2014 1:15:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This debate is just going to be too good. Craig vs Krauss, I knew wasn't going to be great. This however, will be awesome. Sean Carrol is a leader in Cosmology today, and extremely prominent, plus he has a degree in philosophy. If William Lane Craig beats him, then I think Atheists should just give up trying to debate him all together lol
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/21/2014 6:12:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 6:07:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Less than an hour away!

Maaaaan. I'm going to have to wait to watch this until (hopefully) it's posted after-the-fact. Stupid continuing education.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/21/2014 6:47:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 6:12:59 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:07:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Less than an hour away!

Maaaaan. I'm going to have to wait to watch this until (hopefully) it's posted after-the-fact. Stupid continuing education.

I'm really looking forward to this. I think Sean Carrol has a good chance at beating William Lane Craig in this debate, but only time will tell...
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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2/21/2014 6:54:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 6:47:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:12:59 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:07:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Less than an hour away!

Maaaaan. I'm going to have to wait to watch this until (hopefully) it's posted after-the-fact. Stupid continuing education.

I'm really looking forward to this. I think Sean Carrol has a good chance at beating William Lane Craig in this debate, but only time will tell...

Doubt it. Craig will almost certainly win on style and organisation, which is a huge factor in these events. Should be interesting though.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/21/2014 6:57:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 6:54:32 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:47:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:12:59 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:07:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Less than an hour away!

Maaaaan. I'm going to have to wait to watch this until (hopefully) it's posted after-the-fact. Stupid continuing education.

I'm really looking forward to this. I think Sean Carrol has a good chance at beating William Lane Craig in this debate, but only time will tell...

Doubt it. Craig will almost certainly win on style and organisation, which is a huge factor in these events. Should be interesting though.
etherealvoyager
Posts: 60
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2/21/2014 7:55:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 6:57:41 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:54:32 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:47:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:12:59 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:07:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Less than an hour away!

Maaaaan. I'm going to have to wait to watch this until (hopefully) it's posted after-the-fact. Stupid continuing education.

I'm really looking forward to this. I think Sean Carrol has a good chance at beating William Lane Craig in this debate, but only time will tell...

Doubt it. Craig will almost certainly win on style and organisation, which is a huge factor in these events. Should be interesting though.



RT, if you are watching the debate, I, unfortunately completely missed most of the debate. Could you by any means give a brief summary of what has happened, and who is doing better at this stage?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/21/2014 7:58:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 7:55:56 PM, etherealvoyager wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:57:41 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:54:32 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:47:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:12:59 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:07:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Less than an hour away!

Maaaaan. I'm going to have to wait to watch this until (hopefully) it's posted after-the-fact. Stupid continuing education.

I'm really looking forward to this. I think Sean Carrol has a good chance at beating William Lane Craig in this debate, but only time will tell...

Doubt it. Craig will almost certainly win on style and organisation, which is a huge factor in these events. Should be interesting though.



RT, if you are watching the debate, I, unfortunately completely missed most of the debate. Could you by any means give a brief summary of what has happened, and who is doing better at this stage?

I think it is even, and Carrol is doing better than I thought. It is still anyone's game, the first round is over. WLC up for his second round now.
Fox-McCloud
Posts: 158
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2/21/2014 7:58:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
He is good indeed. He even gish galloped WLC there. Yes, he can win.
Abortion Is Generally Morally Reprehensible: http://www.debate.org...

The instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth, and have begun striving for ourselves - Archibald Alison

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive, but to be young was very heaven! - William Wordsworth
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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2/21/2014 8:15:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 7:58:15 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 7:55:56 PM, etherealvoyager wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:57:41 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:54:32 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:47:23 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:12:59 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/21/2014 6:07:56 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Less than an hour away!

Maaaaan. I'm going to have to wait to watch this until (hopefully) it's posted after-the-fact. Stupid continuing education.

I'm really looking forward to this. I think Sean Carrol has a good chance at beating William Lane Craig in this debate, but only time will tell...

Doubt it. Craig will almost certainly win on style and organisation, which is a huge factor in these events. Should be interesting though.



RT, if you are watching the debate, I, unfortunately completely missed most of the debate. Could you by any means give a brief summary of what has happened, and who is doing better at this stage?

I think it is even, and Carrol is doing better than I thought. It is still anyone's game, the first round is over. WLC up for his second round now.

Next time there's one of these, you should give a play-by-play. I think you'd be good at it.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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2/21/2014 8:22:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In the second round now, Carrol just finished, he won. The first round was a tie to me, Carrol took the second round. Intermission now. Craig is going to be up again soon with his 8 minute closer, then Carrol will have his.
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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2/21/2014 8:29:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 8:22:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
In the second round now, Carrol just finished, he won. The first round was a tie to me, Carrol took the second round. Intermission now. Craig is going to be up again soon with his 8 minute closer, then Carrol will have his.

Yep. Been impressed with Carroll, I have to say. Still amazed he picked Alex Rosenberg for tomorrow though.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
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2/21/2014 10:13:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 3:51:22 AM, etherealvoyager wrote:
Hi all, some of you may be aware of this, but Sean Carroll and William Lane Craig will be debating at the Greer-Heard Forum on the 21st of February, which is only a few days away!

On the 22nd of February, there will also be follow-ups from other speakers (Alex Rosenberg and Tim Maudlin for naturalism, and Robin Collins and James Sinclair for theism).

The theme of this entire event is: "God and Cosmology: The Existence of God in Light of Contemporary Cosmology"

This will also be streamed online.

For more information, see:
http://greerheard.com...

What do you all think?

e

Dammit, I can't believe I missed it x(
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."