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Amillennialism

bladerunner060
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2/17/2014 2:19:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Wouldn't that depend on what you think is "proper"?
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TheWarrior
Posts: 126
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2/17/2014 2:25:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:19:51 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Wouldn't that depend on what you think is "proper"?

I guess it would. The way I interpret scripture, and I would like to think it is the proper way, has led me to amillennialism. What I was trying to ask is, is there any solid biblical evidence against amillennialism that I have yet to see or hear?
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bladerunner060
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2/17/2014 2:36:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:25:50 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:19:51 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Wouldn't that depend on what you think is "proper"?

I guess it would. The way I interpret scripture, and I would like to think it is the proper way, has led me to amillennialism. What I was trying to ask is, is there any solid biblical evidence against amillennialism that I have yet to see or hear?

I'm not a Christian, but I would imagine it would depend on how literal you want to take the bible, in particular the use of specific numbers in general and Revelations specifically.
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TheWarrior
Posts: 126
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2/17/2014 3:00:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:36:40 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:25:50 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:19:51 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Wouldn't that depend on what you think is "proper"?

I guess it would. The way I interpret scripture, and I would like to think it is the proper way, has led me to amillennialism. What I was trying to ask is, is there any solid biblical evidence against amillennialism that I have yet to see or hear?

I'm not a Christian, but I would imagine it would depend on how literal you want to take the bible, in particular the use of specific numbers in general and Revelations specifically.

I see. You are right in this aspect. I will say that the main scripture I see amillennialism explicitly portrayed in is 2 Peter 3. Now, I believe that most of scripture has a double meaning both a literal and an allegorical interpretation. There are some that can only be interpreted literally while there are others that can only be interpreted allegorically. Now, which way you take the scripture is by looking at the context of what was written both before and after.
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GodChoosesLife
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2/17/2014 3:03:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

I'm kind of surprised that anyone even knows what this is... Sorry, maybe I forget I'm not the only one who knows about this stuff.. :/
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
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TheWarrior
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2/17/2014 3:08:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 3:03:44 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

I'm kind of surprised that anyone even knows what this is... Sorry, maybe I forget I'm not the only one who knows about this stuff.. :/

So what do you think about the question?
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PGA
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2/17/2014 3:10:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:25:50 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:19:51 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Wouldn't that depend on what you think is "proper"?

I guess it would. The way I interpret scripture, and I would like to think it is the proper way, has led me to amillennialism. What I was trying to ask is, is there any solid biblical evidence against amillennialism that I have yet to see or hear?

I believe so - Partial or full Preterism. Of the two I favor full Preterism but I'm open to a good argument from Scripture.

Peter
bladerunner060
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2/17/2014 3:15:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 3:00:28 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:36:40 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:25:50 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:19:51 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Wouldn't that depend on what you think is "proper"?

I guess it would. The way I interpret scripture, and I would like to think it is the proper way, has led me to amillennialism. What I was trying to ask is, is there any solid biblical evidence against amillennialism that I have yet to see or hear?

I'm not a Christian, but I would imagine it would depend on how literal you want to take the bible, in particular the use of specific numbers in general and Revelations specifically.

I see. You are right in this aspect. I will say that the main scripture I see amillennialism explicitly portrayed in is 2 Peter 3.

I don't know about that--it says that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years a day. How do you link that to Revelations?

Now, I believe that most of scripture has a double meaning both a literal and an allegorical interpretation. There are some that can only be interpreted literally while there are others that can only be interpreted allegorically. Now, which way you take the scripture is by looking at the context of what was written both before and after.

I was under the impression that the Revelations was generally considered to be one of the last books written...so not really anything "after" it. But still--as I understand it, most of the numbers associated with years are intended to be taken at face value. Even the "thousand years" of Peter's seems to have been meant to be a thousand years, and not "a long time" no?

Which is not to say I'm making any affirmative declarations of my own, but rather that I'm not sure whether you can definitively establish your interpretation as "proper".
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TheWarrior
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2/17/2014 3:24:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 3:15:02 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 3:00:28 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:36:40 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:25:50 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:19:51 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Wouldn't that depend on what you think is "proper"?

I guess it would. The way I interpret scripture, and I would like to think it is the proper way, has led me to amillennialism. What I was trying to ask is, is there any solid biblical evidence against amillennialism that I have yet to see or hear?

I'm not a Christian, but I would imagine it would depend on how literal you want to take the bible, in particular the use of specific numbers in general and Revelations specifically.

I see. You are right in this aspect. I will say that the main scripture I see amillennialism explicitly portrayed in is 2 Peter 3.

I don't know about that--it says that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years a day. How do you link that to Revelations?
I would say that that whole chapter is referring to the Day of the Lord. This would be the end times.

Now, I believe that most of scripture has a double meaning both a literal and an allegorical interpretation. There are some that can only be interpreted literally while there are others that can only be interpreted allegorically. Now, which way you take the scripture is by looking at the context of what was written both before and after.

I was under the impression that the Revelations was generally considered to be one of the last books written...so not really anything "after" it. But still--as I understand it, most of the numbers associated with years are intended to be taken at face value. Even the "thousand years" of Peter's seems to have been meant to be a thousand years, and not "a long time" no?

Not necessarily. The 70 weeks in Daniel is often interpreted as being 70 years.

Which is not to say I'm making any affirmative declarations of my own, but rather that I'm not sure whether you can definitively establish your interpretation as "proper".
I understand. I would like to thank you for making me think.
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bladerunner060
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2/17/2014 4:15:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 3:24:23 PM, TheWarrior wrote:

I was under the impression that the Revelations was generally considered to be one of the last books written...so not really anything "after" it. But still--as I understand it, most of the numbers associated with years are intended to be taken at face value. Even the "thousand years" of Peter's seems to have been meant to be a thousand years, and not "a long time" no?

Not necessarily. The 70 weeks in Daniel is often interpreted as being 70 years.

I think you may be getting a bit jumbled here--Daniel is a "reinterpretation" of Jeremiah's prophecy regarding Jerusalem being desolate for 70 years--Daniel is told that it is actually "seventy sevens", and it is contextually interpreted by some to mean seventy groups of 7 years, or 490 years. Day and year aren't really used in the text IIRC, and I am not certain whether "seventy sevens" is a better translation than "seventy weeks" (annanicole generally knows her linguistics, she'd be the one I'd ask if I didn't feel like researching it), but it was written when 70 years had certainly passed and there was some question regarding its lack of fulfillment, which makes the "seventy sevens" a more persuasive understanding; Daniel wouldn't have been shortening the timespan, I wouldn't think.

Which is not to say I'm making any affirmative declarations of my own, but rather that I'm not sure whether you can definitively establish your interpretation as "proper".
I understand. I would like to thank you for making me think.

Well yay for thinkin'!
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Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/17/2014 5:12:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Please define what you mean by "proper"

There is the carnal minded way to interpret scripture and there is the spiritual way to interpret scripture.
All carnal minded methods of interpretation seem "proper" to the carnal minded people. All those various interpretations lead to confusion and to many different doctrines including millenialism, amillennialism, premillennialism etc etc.
Which of those carnal minded interpretations are "proper"? Just yours? LOL

The spiritual interpretation comes through the spirit of revelation and is not confusing to the spiritual mind but totally incomprehensible to the carnal mind.
Spiritual revelation is not a man made concept of what the scripture means. It reveals the eternal nature of prophecy and its eternal principles which apply to all eternal generations and do not have one particular generation of the future who will see something others have not seen before them.
There is nothing new under the sun. The end and the beginning are same thing. "As in the days of Noah" ( Matt 24:38-44)
Death ( the end) comes without warning to many.

God is both the beginning ( life) and end ( death) and also the eternal present, yesterday today and forever. God ( The WAY, the TRUTH, the LIFE) is always on earth in the flesh in all of LIFE. He/It is always dying daily, always present and and always coming again just like the eternal NOW.
The WAY is a principle which guides people though life.
The TRUTH is that which is factual and real. It has evidence and can be verified.
The LIFE is the reality of all living things all around us which we can see in the flesh on this planet daily.

The character Jesus in the bible is merely a personification of the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE in reality.
He/it has always been on earth in the flesh since the beginning and remains on earth in the flesh for ever.

There is nothing new under the sun and never will be anything new in principle. History repeats itself in principle at all times.
Skyangel
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2/17/2014 5:30:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 3:00:28 PM, TheWarrior wrote:

I see. You are right in this aspect. I will say that the main scripture I see amillennialism explicitly portrayed in is 2 Peter 3. Now, I believe that most of scripture has a double meaning both a literal and an allegorical interpretation. There are some that can only be interpreted literally while there are others that can only be interpreted allegorically. Now, which way you take the scripture is by looking at the context of what was written both before and after.

--------------------------------------------

All scripture has a double meaning and sometimes can be interpreted in many more ways than just two. If you see any that cannot be interpreted both literally and spiritually, you are not seeing clearly at all. Many make no sense at all in a literal interpretation and even appear to contradict each other but they make perfect sense when interpreted spiritually.

When it comes to context you need to take the whole context of the whole book into account not just the context of one chapter or paragraph.
The context of the whole bible is about spiritual eternal concepts compared to temporary finite concepts. The whole book is allegorical. It is talking about knowledge, good and evil, wisdom and foolishness, life and death, human actions and reactions to inner conflicts of mind and spirit as well as outer conflicts with other people and our own circumstances. It has eternal principles which are relevant to all generations for all eternity not just to specific people at specific times in history.
biomystic
Posts: 606
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2/17/2014 5:57:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"There is nothing new under the sun and never will be anything new in principle. History repeats itself in principle at all times."

New under the sun never before witnessed on earth:

Paxcalibur, Sword of Peace, Newest Word of God that needs no words to communicate God's will for humanity.

Christ Josephine: The Daughter of God, She is coming and Her prophesied return has been seen in spiritual visions plus Signs of Her coming arrival.

The Gospel of Humanity that reveals the Identity of God and the Purpose of Life in God's Plan.

Celestial Torah Christianity: recovered after priests of Judah tried their best to destroy it with their false earthly Torah that was supposed to be derived from the Celestial Torah but wasn't. Now the Celestial Torah is here again to make spiritual sense out of the whole Near Eastern Messianic religious movement that culminated in Christianity.

These are all New

These are all NEW revelations never before witnessed by human beings until our Age.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/17/2014 6:16:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 3:24:23 PM, TheWarrior wrote:

I would say that that whole chapter is referring to the Day of the Lord. This would be the end times.

--------------------------------------------

The "Day of the Lord" is one eternal "day" or time period which never ends. It is infinite.
It is like saying "the Lords lifetime" or "the time in which the Lord exists".

Mal 4:5 refers to "The day of the Lord" The word day is "yowm" in Hebrew. It does not necessarily refer to any finite time period. It refers to time itself. It has been translated as "time" in the bible 64 times. It has been translated as "continually" 10 times.

Compare 2 Peter 3:8 with Psalm 90:4
The "thousand years" is allegorical and not talking about any finite time period at all. It is referring to eternity which includes the eternal past and eternal future.
Skyangel
Posts: 8,234
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2/17/2014 6:30:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 5:57:42 PM, biomystic wrote:
"There is nothing new under the sun and never will be anything new in principle. History repeats itself in principle at all times."

New under the sun never before witnessed on earth:

Paxcalibur, Sword of Peace, Newest Word of God that needs no words to communicate God's will for humanity.

Christ Josephine: The Daughter of God, She is coming and Her prophesied return has been seen in spiritual visions plus Signs of Her coming arrival.

The Gospel of Humanity that reveals the Identity of God and the Purpose of Life in God's Plan.

Celestial Torah Christianity: recovered after priests of Judah tried their best to destroy it with their false earthly Torah that was supposed to be derived from the Celestial Torah but wasn't. Now the Celestial Torah is here again to make spiritual sense out of the whole Near Eastern Messianic religious movement that culminated in Christianity.

These are all New

These are all NEW revelations never before witnessed by human beings until our Age.
------------------------------------------------

There is nothing new to those who have seen it all before. Anything that appears to be new is only new to those who have never seen or understood it before.
The PRINCIPLES of LIFE are not new. They are old and keep recycling themselves.

Teaching an old lesson in a new way is not teaching a new lesson.

Wrapping an old gift in a new wrapping does not change it into a new gift.

The stars have always been in the sky. There is nothing new about them. Humans made up myths about the stars and perceived them as stories about gods long before any of us were born. What's so new about them?

There is also nothing new about deluded people making up stories and leading others astray with their delusions. It has all happened before.
TheWarrior
Posts: 126
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2/17/2014 6:56:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 6:16:24 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/17/2014 3:24:23 PM, TheWarrior wrote:

I would say that that whole chapter is referring to the Day of the Lord. This would be the end times.

--------------------------------------------

The "Day of the Lord" is one eternal "day" or time period which never ends. It is infinite.
It is like saying "the Lords lifetime" or "the time in which the Lord exists".

Mal 4:5 refers to "The day of the Lord" The word day is "yowm" in Hebrew. It does not necessarily refer to any finite time period. It refers to time itself. It has been translated as "time" in the bible 64 times. It has been translated as "continually" 10 times.

Compare 2 Peter 3:8 with Psalm 90:4
The "thousand years" is allegorical and not talking about any finite time period at all. It is referring to eternity which includes the eternal past and eternal future.

Man, and I thought I was pretty allegorical in my interpretation of scripture. But, you are outrageously allegorical. Are you a gnostic?
https://docs.google.com...
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PGA
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2/17/2014 8:28:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 6:30:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/17/2014 5:57:42 PM, biomystic wrote:
"There is nothing new under the sun and never will be anything new in principle. History repeats itself in principle at all times."

New under the sun never before witnessed on earth:

Paxcalibur, Sword of Peace, Newest Word of God that needs no words to communicate God's will for humanity.

Christ Josephine: The Daughter of God, She is coming and Her prophesied return has been seen in spiritual visions plus Signs of Her coming arrival.

The Gospel of Humanity that reveals the Identity of God and the Purpose of Life in God's Plan.

Celestial Torah Christianity: recovered after priests of Judah tried their best to destroy it with their false earthly Torah that was supposed to be derived from the Celestial Torah but wasn't. Now the Celestial Torah is here again to make spiritual sense out of the whole Near Eastern Messianic religious movement that culminated in Christianity.

These are all New

These are all NEW revelations never before witnessed by human beings until our Age.
------------------------------------------------

There is nothing new to those who have seen it all before. Anything that appears to be new is only new to those who have never seen or understood it before.
The PRINCIPLES of LIFE are not new. They are old and keep recycling themselves.

Teaching an old lesson in a new way is not teaching a new lesson.

Wrapping an old gift in a new wrapping does not change it into a new gift.

The stars have always been in the sky. There is nothing new about them. Humans made up myths about the stars and perceived them as stories about gods long before any of us were born. What's so new about them?

There is also nothing new about deluded people making up stories and leading others astray with their delusions. It has all happened before.

Pardon my opinion, but you and Biomystic have a bazaar and false view of Scripture.

Scripture interprets itself and there is a correct view which you guys are botching up.

Peter
biomystic
Posts: 606
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2/17/2014 9:52:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"There is also nothing new about deluded people making up stories and leading others astray with their delusions. It has all happened before."

What a dopey philosophy! You just run everything human beings do of interest into mud because YOU seem unable to see novelty where novelty exists. And without novelty, nothing advances in human life, in human comprehension of life principles which you blithely toss away as meaningless reruns when it is YOU who are the rerun of Cynicism.

Thank God, novelty exists and New things are brought into this world despite your blindness to that FACT of life. So next time, don't lie about New Revelation God has provided. You cannot find any Paxcalibur anywhere on earth except the one real deal in the Holy Land. Why lie to cover your wrong notion? Why not admit the truth for a change? Why not admit you cannot provide any Daughter of God reference in Christianity except mine? Why not admit you cannot provide any Gospel of Humanity that tells what God is, and God's Plan in plain language? Why not admit you cannot provide any Celestial Torah information because you don't know what it is and think astrology covers it, but that's like saying you know the title to a book but haven't a clue what's written in it.

You deceive yourself with this odd idea novelty doesn't exist yet without novelty, no evolution of life would be possible. Learn to think rationally instead of emotionally next time..the world doesn't need anymore cynics artificially depressing others with their negative worldviews than it already has..running things badly because they, like you, don't care for truth..
Skyangel
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2/18/2014 12:45:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 6:56:07 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
At 2/17/2014 6:16:24 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/17/2014 3:24:23 PM, TheWarrior wrote:

I would say that that whole chapter is referring to the Day of the Lord. This would be the end times.

--------------------------------------------

The "Day of the Lord" is one eternal "day" or time period which never ends. It is infinite.
It is like saying "the Lords lifetime" or "the time in which the Lord exists".

Mal 4:5 refers to "The day of the Lord" The word day is "yowm" in Hebrew. It does not necessarily refer to any finite time period. It refers to time itself. It has been translated as "time" in the bible 64 times. It has been translated as "continually" 10 times.

Compare 2 Peter 3:8 with Psalm 90:4
The "thousand years" is allegorical and not talking about any finite time period at all. It is referring to eternity which includes the eternal past and eternal future.

Man, and I thought I was pretty allegorical in my interpretation of scripture. But, you are outrageously allegorical. Are you a gnostic?

No, I am not a gnostic or agnostic or atheist or christian or any other religion.
I am a normal every day grandmother who thinks logically and loves literature. I like to work out puzzles and the bible is like a huge puzzle. The bible is especially fascinating due to being allegorical, full of idioms, symbolism, hyperbole, similes. metaphors, parallelism, parables, poetry etc etc. None of it can be taken literally if you look at the overall context.
It is as silly to take any of it literally as it would be to take part of any fairy tale literally. Just because something in the story can be perceived to be real like a wolf or a forest or a grandmother and a cupboard does not mean it is real or should be taken literally.
Grandmothers may be real but the grandmother in little red riding hood was not real and neither was the forest or the wolf or the girl.
They are merely story characters.
Bible story characters and events are also just made up characters and events even if they do have similarities to real people and real events. It still does not make them any more real than the imaginary grandma.
I was brought up in an agnostic household. I was encouraged to make up my own mind about God. I became a christian when I was 15 years old. I learned all about the various doctrines etc and decided that God does exist but not as an invisible supernatural man in the sky. God exists as a concept in this world and as life itself. "Father God" is merely a personification of Life in the same way Mother Nature is a personification of nature.
Does Mother Nature exist? Yes she does in nature but not as an invisible supernatural entity or goddess in the sky.
I think most people can understand that concept of personifying nature as God.
It makes sense in reality when you apply all Gods so called powers to life itself. It does to me anyway.
Skyangel
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2/18/2014 12:52:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 8:28:03 PM, PGA wrote:
At 2/17/2014 6:30:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/17/2014 5:57:42 PM, biomystic wrote:
"There is nothing new under the sun and never will be anything new in principle. History repeats itself in principle at all times."

New under the sun never before witnessed on earth:

Paxcalibur, Sword of Peace, Newest Word of God that needs no words to communicate God's will for humanity.

Christ Josephine: The Daughter of God, She is coming and Her prophesied return has been seen in spiritual visions plus Signs of Her coming arrival.

The Gospel of Humanity that reveals the Identity of God and the Purpose of Life in God's Plan.

Celestial Torah Christianity: recovered after priests of Judah tried their best to destroy it with their false earthly Torah that was supposed to be derived from the Celestial Torah but wasn't. Now the Celestial Torah is here again to make spiritual sense out of the whole Near Eastern Messianic religious movement that culminated in Christianity.

These are all New

These are all NEW revelations never before witnessed by human beings until our Age.
------------------------------------------------

There is nothing new to those who have seen it all before. Anything that appears to be new is only new to those who have never seen or understood it before.
The PRINCIPLES of LIFE are not new. They are old and keep recycling themselves.

Teaching an old lesson in a new way is not teaching a new lesson.

Wrapping an old gift in a new wrapping does not change it into a new gift.

The stars have always been in the sky. There is nothing new about them. Humans made up myths about the stars and perceived them as stories about gods long before any of us were born. What's so new about them?

There is also nothing new about deluded people making up stories and leading others astray with their delusions. It has all happened before.

Pardon my opinion, but you and Biomystic have a bazaar and false view of Scripture.

Scripture interprets itself and there is a correct view which you guys are botching up.

Peter

The views are what they are. There is not a correct view or an incorrect view any more than there is a correct view and incorrect view of any landscape. There are narrow minded views and larger overall views. Some cannot see the trees for the forest and others cannot see the forest for the trees.
Which view is "correct" when you look at all views at the same time? The one who sees the most is the one who embraces all of the views and looks at the subject from every possible angle instead of rejecting some because they believe it is an incorrect way to view something.
People see what they see. What's wrong with that? Are they wrong because they don't see the same as what you see or maybe point out to you something that you do not want to see?
Skyangel
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2/18/2014 12:56:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 9:52:15 PM, biomystic wrote:
"There is also nothing new about deluded people making up stories and leading others astray with their delusions. It has all happened before."

What a dopey philosophy! You just run everything human beings do of interest into mud because YOU seem unable to see novelty where novelty exists. And without novelty, nothing advances in human life, in human comprehension of life principles which you blithely toss away as meaningless reruns when it is YOU who are the rerun of Cynicism.

Thank God, novelty exists and New things are brought into this world despite your blindness to that FACT of life. So next time, don't lie about New Revelation God has provided. You cannot find any Paxcalibur anywhere on earth except the one real deal in the Holy Land. Why lie to cover your wrong notion? Why not admit the truth for a change? Why not admit you cannot provide any Daughter of God reference in Christianity except mine? Why not admit you cannot provide any Gospel of Humanity that tells what God is, and God's Plan in plain language? Why not admit you cannot provide any Celestial Torah information because you don't know what it is and think astrology covers it, but that's like saying you know the title to a book but haven't a clue what's written in it.

You deceive yourself with this odd idea novelty doesn't exist yet without novelty, no evolution of life would be possible. Learn to think rationally instead of emotionally next time..the world doesn't need anymore cynics artificially depressing others with their negative worldviews than it already has..running things badly because they, like you, don't care for truth..

Novelty has always existed. LOL Things are only new to those who have never seen them in any other form before.
Novelty items are nothing but distractions for children who love their fantasies.
PGA
Posts: 4,032
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2/18/2014 8:54:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hi Skyangel,

At 2/18/2014 12:52:03 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/17/2014 8:28:03 PM, PGA wrote:
At 2/17/2014 6:30:26 PM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/17/2014 5:57:42 PM, biomystic wrote:
"There is nothing new under the sun and never will be anything new in principle. History repeats itself in principle at all times."

New under the sun never before witnessed on earth:

Pardon my opinion, but you and Biomystic have a bazaar and false view of Scripture.

Scripture interprets itself and there is a correct view which you guys are botching up.

Peter

The views are what they are.

The Scripture is what it is. It is not whatever you want it to be.

There is not a correct view or an incorrect view any more than there is a correct view and incorrect view of any landscape. There are narrow minded views and larger overall views. Some cannot see the trees for the forest and others cannot see the forest for the trees.

Sure there is a correct view. That is like saying, "There is no truth." The sentence is a self-refuting sentence. In its composition it refutes the very thing it claims, making it non-sense. In order for there to be no truth the very sentence would have to be false too, yet it is making a truth claim that cannot be false or else it refutes itself, which it does.

What you fail to do with Scripture is take the Author - God - at His word. You make Him say things that He does not say. Yes, there is much figurative language in the Bible, but there is also much plain, historical and narrative language also. Grammar and context determines what is what, just like it does in normal life, or else language can mean anything. Language in context has specific meaning.

Which view is "correct" when you look at all views at the same time? The one who sees the most is the one who embraces all of the views and looks at the subject from every possible angle instead of rejecting some because they believe it is an incorrect way to view something.

Rubbish. You can't see everything from every possible angle. You are not God. If there is no 'correct' view then there is no truth in what you say. Truth is very narrow, very exclusive or else it would not be true. For instance my name is Peter and I live in a small town in Ontario, Canada. The Law of Identity says that A=A. If that statement is true then it cannot also be false. A dog is a dog. A dog is not a cat.

People see what they see. What's wrong with that? Are they wrong because they don't see the same as what you see or maybe point out to you something that you do not want to see?

The thing wrong with it is if you don't see something for what it really is then have you truly seen it?

John 4:23-24
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24 God is [a]spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Footnotes:

John 4:24 Or Spirit

What you do when you think like this is you make truth meaningless. You turn truth into falsehood.

The bible is especially fascinating due to being allegorical, full of idioms, symbolism, hyperbole, similes. metaphors, parallelism, parables, poetry etc etc. None of it can be taken literally if you look at the overall context.

Treating everything in an allegorical, symbolic, metaphoric, figure of speech way is where you err and where you depart from Christianity. It does not allow you to see God as He has revealed Himself. You construct your own god. God for you is whatever you make Him to be. Your God is highly contradictory from the God revealed in the Bible. You take His words that have specific meaning and you 'Postmodernize' them to mean whatever you want them to mean. You take what the Author - God - is saying, and you change His meaning to what you want it to mean. You make the language say what it does not say. You take a plain meaning, a narrative, and you bring your hidden figurative meaning into it. You do this with the Bible but I bet you do not do this in normal everyday life. When you drive your car and a light turns red you do not turn it into an allegory and make the signal mean something other than it really means. When I say, 'My lawn is very green this year' or 'He is green with envy' you manage to distinguish which is a figure of speech and which is plain narrative, yet you do not apply the same standards to the Bible.

Romans 1:20-25
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


Peter
biomystic
Posts: 606
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2/18/2014 10:29:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 12:56:01 AM, Skyangel wrote:
At 2/17/2014 9:52:15 PM, biomystic wrote:
"There is also nothing new about deluded people making up stories and leading others astray with their delusions. It has all happened before."

What a dopey philosophy! You just run everything human beings do of interest into mud because YOU seem unable to see novelty where novelty exists. And without novelty, nothing advances in human life, in human comprehension of life principles which you blithely toss away as meaningless reruns when it is YOU who are the rerun of Cynicism.

Thank God, novelty exists and New things are brought into this world despite your blindness to that FACT of life. So next time, don't lie about New Revelation God has provided. You cannot find any Paxcalibur anywhere on earth except the one real deal in the Holy Land. Why lie to cover your wrong notion? Why not admit the truth for a change? Why not admit you cannot provide any Daughter of God reference in Christianity except mine? Why not admit you cannot provide any Gospel of Humanity that tells what God is, and God's Plan in plain language? Why not admit you cannot provide any Celestial Torah information because you don't know what it is and think astrology covers it, but that's like saying you know the title to a book but haven't a clue what's written in it.

You deceive yourself with this odd idea novelty doesn't exist yet without novelty, no evolution of life would be possible. Learn to think rationally instead of emotionally next time..the world doesn't need anymore cynics artificially depressing others with their negative worldviews than it already has..running things badly because they, like you, don't care for truth..

Novelty has always existed. LOL Things are only new to those who have never seen them in any other form before.
Novelty items are nothing but distractions for children who love their fantasies.

Skyangel, stick to crocheting and watching soap operas. I for one don't appreciate your intrusion into spiritual ideas with your lack of respect for other people's ideas and for the store of ideas in general held by humanity. You just coat everything with a cynical gloss that's actually meaningless trivialization of real things, individualized things that each one has a store of meaning behind it, a historical context and a future. Of course as a religious visionary you trash my turf and thus piss me off with your disrespect. It's not me asking respect for religious ideas in and of themselves but asking you to THINK logically instead of this blanket arrogance that seems to hold the idea that contempt for individualization of things, i.e. the natural order of Creation, is nothing worthy of comment, let alone respect. I don't buy that philosophy. I don't know where you picked it up but do go outside and smell an individual rose and note it's uniqueness from other roses.. that's the Soul of things, in their uniqueness, their Newness on earth.

Paxcalibur was honored by over 500 Nazarean Christians in Nazareth, Israel, in 2003 and is kept there as a very special religious icon by the head of all Christian churches in one of Christianity's most holy cities. You don't feel the spiritual magic. Others did and do.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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2/18/2014 11:22:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Biomystic: "Paxcalibur was honored by over 500 Nazarean Christians in Nazareth, Israel, in 2003 and is kept there as a very special religious icon by the head of all Christian churches in one of Christianity's most holy cities. You don't feel the spiritual magic. Others did and do."

Anna: Could you relay the name of this man who claims, apparently, to be the "head of all Christian churches"?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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2/18/2014 11:28:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Yes, I think so - depending upon how you define "amillennialism". The so-called "millennium" simply refers to a long period of peace and prosperity, unhindered by persecutions, for the Christian church. It occurred after the Jews were removed from the scene as tormenters, or course - but more importantly as the Roman themselves pretty much abandoned the idea of persecution of Christians which had begun under Nero.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand."

Anyone who undertakes to study the Apocalypse of John would do well to read some uninspired Jewish apocalypses and study the general theme of apocalyptic literature. This will sort-of vaccinate him against all sorts of far-fetched interpretations.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
biomystic
Posts: 606
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2/18/2014 5:05:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 11:22:03 AM, annanicole wrote:
Biomystic: "Paxcalibur was honored by over 500 Nazarean Christians in Nazareth, Israel, in 2003 and is kept there as a very special religious icon by the head of all Christian churches in one of Christianity's most holy cities. You don't feel the spiritual magic. Others did and do."

Anna: Could you relay the name of this man who claims, apparently, to be the "head of all Christian churches"?

Abuna ("Father" in Arabic) Hatoum. He heads two Melkite Catholic churches in Nazareth and is considered the top guy to go to in Nazareth Christian community. He is the Keeper of Paxcalibur. I've had been introduced to the mayor of Nazareth in his special meeting room where Paxcalibur is kept. I've had tea with the Melkite Catholic Archbishop of the Holy Land dioceses. These things would not happen had not the Sword of Peace impressed them so..
PGA
Posts: 4,032
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2/18/2014 11:02:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:25:50 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:19:51 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Wouldn't that depend on what you think is "proper"?

I guess it would. The way I interpret scripture, and I would like to think it is the proper way, has led me to amillennialism. What I was trying to ask is, is there any solid biblical evidence against amillennialism that I have yet to see or hear?

In reading Kim Riddlebarger Amillennialism, Understanding the End Times, I agree with much but feel the position misses the mark on so much too. I'm going to stick my neck out and take a full-Preterist rather than a partial Preterist position on the subject and see if I can be persuaded otherwise.

To start off with a for instance, when Riddlebarger and the Amillennialist speak of 'this age and the age to come' I definitely support the two age theory but I believe they misinterpret what the two ages represent. I see biblical support for 'this age' representing the OT age and the 'age to come' representing the New Testament age. As such I see the age to come starting in A.D. 70 when the OT age totally disappeared. Remember that Hebrews 8:13 said:

13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Hebrews 8:13 NASB)

Something that is ready to pass away (speaking of the Old Covenant for Hebrews is a contrast in covenants) at the time of writing suggests to me it will pass away before the end of the age.

Concerning the subject of the end of the age, I also believe it was the end of that 'heaven and earth' that the Jewish economy revolved around, not the end of the actual heaven and earth. I think Matthew 5:17-18 make this plain.

Matthew 5:17-18

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

I think the Amillennialist has a problem with this passage. The problem is that the smallest letter of the Law has passed away. The temple, priesthood and sacrificial system that are part of the Law is not longer in place after A.D. 70. Was Jesus wrong in saying 'not the smallest letter would pass until all is accomplished'? No, I do not believe so. I believe it is a matter of understanding what He means. If the smallest letter has passed away then that 'heaven and earth' He refers to has also passed away. Do you see the problem?

The Amillennialist sees the kingdom coming in stages, as being present in one sense and yet future in another. I can agree with this, but just disagree when the future would be. Again I see it being accomplished in A.D. 70, not at the end of time. I do not see an end of time spoken of in the Bible, just the 'time of the end.'

I agree with the Amillennialist that the kingdom of God represented a spiritual kingdom which was present in the first century. I just do not agree on the interpretation on the consummation of the kingdom age. I do however agree that when Jesus spoke He referred to the present and future elements of the kingdom. That is why Paul could say he was in the kingdom (Christ ruled and reigned in Paul's life), yet still looked forward to the coming kingdom (When he would be with the Lord in heaven). I believe that coming consummation of the kingdom, as told by Daniel in Daniel 9:24 would take place at the end of the 70th week - i.e. A.D. 70.

Also, when the NT identifies the 'last days' I believe it is again referring to A.D. 70.

http://christeternalchristianchurch.com...
http://www.christeternalchristianchurch.com...
http://www.christeternalchristianchurch.com...

Now I leave you to poke holes in the arguments.

Peter
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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2/18/2014 11:37:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 11:02:25 PM, PGA wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:25:50 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:19:51 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Wouldn't that depend on what you think is "proper"?

I guess it would. The way I interpret scripture, and I would like to think it is the proper way, has led me to amillennialism. What I was trying to ask is, is there any solid biblical evidence against amillennialism that I have yet to see or hear?

In reading Kim Riddlebarger Amillennialism, Understanding the End Times, I agree with much but feel the position misses the mark on so much too. I'm going to stick my neck out and take a full-Preterist rather than a partial Preterist position on the subject and see if I can be persuaded otherwise.

To start off with a for instance, when Riddlebarger and the Amillennialist speak of 'this age and the age to come' I definitely support the two age theory but I believe they misinterpret what the two ages represent. I see biblical support for 'this age' representing the OT age and the 'age to come' representing the New Testament age. As such I see the age to come starting in A.D. 70 when the OT age totally disappeared. Remember that Hebrews 8:13 said:

13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Hebrews 8:13 NASB)

Something that is ready to pass away (speaking of the Old Covenant for Hebrews is a contrast in covenants) at the time of writing suggests to me it will pass away before the end of the age.

Concerning the subject of the end of the age, I also believe it was the end of that 'heaven and earth' that the Jewish economy revolved around, not the end of the actual heaven and earth. I think Matthew 5:17-18 make this plain.

Matthew 5:17-18

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

I think the Amillennialist has a problem with this passage. The problem is that the smallest letter of the Law has passed away. The temple, priesthood and sacrificial system that are part of the Law is not longer in place after A.D. 70. Was Jesus wrong in saying 'not the smallest letter would pass until all is accomplished'? No, I do not believe so. I believe it is a matter of understanding what He means. If the smallest letter has passed away then that 'heaven and earth' He refers to has also passed away. Do you see the problem?

The Amillennialist sees the kingdom coming in stages, as being present in one sense and yet future in another. I can agree with this, but just disagree when the future would be. Again I see it being accomplished in A.D. 70, not at the end of time. I do not see an end of time spoken of in the Bible, just the 'time of the end.'

I agree with the Amillennialist that the kingdom of God represented a spiritual kingdom which was present in the first century. I just do not agree on the interpretation on the consummation of the kingdom age. I do however agree that when Jesus spoke He referred to the present and future elements of the kingdom. That is why Paul could say he was in the kingdom (Christ ruled and reigned in Paul's life), yet still looked forward to the coming kingdom (When he would be with the Lord in heaven). I believe that coming consummation of the kingdom, as told by Daniel in Daniel 9:24 would take place at the end of the 70th week - i.e. A.D. 70.

Also, when the NT identifies the 'last days' I believe it is again referring to A.D. 70.

http://christeternalchristianchurch.com...
http://www.christeternalchristianchurch.com...
http://www.christeternalchristianchurch.com...

Now I leave you to poke holes in the arguments.

Peter

I think that's an incorrect view of Heb 8: 13.

"(Jesus) .... having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross; having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

Here is the passage:

"In that he saith, A new covenant he hath made the first old. But that which is becoming old and waxeth aged is nigh unto vanishing away."

Who is the "he"? Does the pronoun not answer to indeterminate prophets such as Jeremiah and Isaiah who looked forward to the time of the Messiah, a time at which the Mosaic System would be waxing old? There are a multiplicity of passages in the OT prophets that intimate the theme. Paul is not speaking in the first person of present conditions: in chapter 6, he is almost exclusively referencing the prophesies of the OT.

Are you not saying that at the cross Jesus Christ did not actually remove the Mosaic Law, but just made it old? In other words, the Old Law was waxing older and older and older, and the "vanishing away" did not occur until AD 70?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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2/19/2014 12:14:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:10:56 PM, TheWarrior wrote:
Does a proper exegesis of scripture lead to Amillennialism?

Yes.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.