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The Atheistic Logical Fallacy

Installgentoo
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2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.
biomystic
Posts: 606
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2/18/2014 10:39:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Install, please don't invite another endless atheist/theist debate over semantics of debate. If you don't really know the Fatal Flaws in atheist ideology, you shouldn't start a topic on it. I do know the Fatal Flaws of atheist ideology and frankly, will get bored in a hurry if this thread becomes another rerun of theist/atheist debates seen in religious forums for years. Just saying..
TheSquirrel
Posts: 83
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2/19/2014 3:30:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

God is an extraordinary claim. I like the way I heard it put recently... they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I just want one (1) evidence. Any evidence.
Without that, how CAN I believe? You say atheists make the claim. There are those who do. They say there IS NO GOD. I make no claim. I simply do not believe. I have not been convinced.
Installgentoo
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2/19/2014 3:36:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 3:30:24 PM, TheSquirrel wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

God is an extraordinary claim. I like the way I heard it put recently... they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I just want one (1) evidence. Any evidence.
Without that, how CAN I believe? You say atheists make the claim. There are those who do. They say there IS NO GOD. I make no claim. I simply do not believe. I have not been convinced.

So you are not an atheist but an agnostic. Cool beans.
Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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2/19/2014 3:45:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

I have a condom in orbit around Jupiter. Disprove that or else I have good reason to believe it's there.
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Taylur
Posts: 6
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2/19/2014 3:57:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
An atheist's evidence IS the lack of evidence.

For example, if I claimed that I had been to Jupiter, any logical person would want to see some evidence. You'd soon find that there isn't a single ounce of it, and without supporting evidence, one can safely say (with a reasonable degree of certainty) that I have never been to Jupiter in my life.

There is always the benefit of the doubt, which is why religion has lasted as long as it has, but there is nothing to objectively confirm the presence of a higher being. One can therefore say (with reasonable certainty) that there is no God.

Extraordinary claims DO need extraordinary evidence. The person making the claim needs the evidence; the person sceptical of the claim only needs to lack of evidence to disprove it. Saying something exists is not the same as saying it doesn't.
Installgentoo
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2/19/2014 3:59:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 3:45:16 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

I have a condom in orbit around Jupiter. Disprove that or else I have good reason to believe it's there.

That's not a very good analogy considering millions of reliable witnesses (philosophers, etc) claim to have seen God. If millions of people had seen the condom orbiting Jupiter, then maybe you would have a point, mate.
Sswdwm
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2/19/2014 4:21:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 3:59:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:45:16 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

I have a condom in orbit around Jupiter. Disprove that or else I have good reason to believe it's there.

That's not a very good analogy considering millions of reliable witnesses (philosophers, etc) claim to have seen God. If millions of people had seen the condom orbiting Jupiter, then maybe you would have a point, mate.

Millions if reliable people have seen condoms. Millions of people have seen rockets. My condom is in the pioneer spacecraft, unfortunately only people who live in illiterate areas of Palestine are aware of this, in another 70 years there will be literature wrote about my space condoms. Literature writen on stories of stories of hearsay.

So, disprove my condom!
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Sswdwm
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2/19/2014 4:24:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 3:59:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:45:16 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

I have a condom in orbit around Jupiter. Disprove that or else I have good reason to believe it's there.

That's not a very good analogy considering millions of reliable witnesses (philosophers, etc) claim to have seen God. If millions of people had seen the condom orbiting Jupiter, then maybe you would have a point, mate.

By the way, there are thousands of reliable people you could speak to today who will claim they have been abducted by aliens. Even entire groups of people will make this claim, all with correlating stories too. Do you believe them?
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Installgentoo
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2/19/2014 4:27:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 4:24:49 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:59:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:45:16 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

I have a condom in orbit around Jupiter. Disprove that or else I have good reason to believe it's there.

That's not a very good analogy considering millions of reliable witnesses (philosophers, etc) claim to have seen God. If millions of people had seen the condom orbiting Jupiter, then maybe you would have a point, mate.

By the way, there are thousands of reliable people you could speak to today who will claim they have been abducted by aliens. Even entire groups of people will make this claim, all with correlating stories too. Do you believe them?

No, because almost all of them are drunks or in some sort of cult.

But when you have millions of sightings of God by ordinary non-intoxicated people then the claim becomes more plausible.
Taylur
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2/19/2014 4:30:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 4:27:34 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 4:24:49 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:59:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:45:16 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

I have a condom in orbit around Jupiter. Disprove that or else I have good reason to believe it's there.

That's not a very good analogy considering millions of reliable witnesses (philosophers, etc) claim to have seen God. If millions of people had seen the condom orbiting Jupiter, then maybe you would have a point, mate.

By the way, there are thousands of reliable people you could speak to today who will claim they have been abducted by aliens. Even entire groups of people will make this claim, all with correlating stories too. Do you believe them?

No, because almost all of them are drunks or in some sort of cult.

But when you have millions of sightings of God by ordinary non-intoxicated people then the claim becomes more plausible.

Do you not see the irony that you yourself are in a 'cult'. Also, many religious 'sightings' throughout history were performed under psychedelic drugs. The comparisons between alien and religious sightings are uncanny.
Sswdwm
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2/19/2014 4:31:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 4:27:34 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 4:24:49 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:59:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:45:16 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

I have a condom in orbit around Jupiter. Disprove that or else I have good reason to believe it's there.

That's not a very good analogy considering millions of reliable witnesses (philosophers, etc) claim to have seen God. If millions of people had seen the condom orbiting Jupiter, then maybe you would have a point, mate.

By the way, there are thousands of reliable people you could speak to today who will claim they have been abducted by aliens. Even entire groups of people will make this claim, all with correlating stories too. Do you believe them?

No, because almost all of them are drunks or in some sort of cult.

But when you have millions of sightings of God by ordinary non-intoxicated people then the claim becomes more plausible.

You do also realize there are millions of eye witnesses that also claim to have seen Allah, or the Buddha, and pretty much every single other deity known. They also correlate v well with near death experiences.

Anyway, since you have no evidence against my condom in space, you are at best an agnostic to my space rubber
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Installgentoo
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2/19/2014 6:29:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 4:30:14 PM, Taylur wrote:
At 2/19/2014 4:27:34 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 4:24:49 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:59:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:45:16 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

I have a condom in orbit around Jupiter. Disprove that or else I have good reason to believe it's there.

That's not a very good analogy considering millions of reliable witnesses (philosophers, etc) claim to have seen God. If millions of people had seen the condom orbiting Jupiter, then maybe you would have a point, mate.

By the way, there are thousands of reliable people you could speak to today who will claim they have been abducted by aliens. Even entire groups of people will make this claim, all with correlating stories too. Do you believe them?

No, because almost all of them are drunks or in some sort of cult.

But when you have millions of sightings of God by ordinary non-intoxicated people then the claim becomes more plausible.

Do you not see the irony that you yourself are in a 'cult'.

Belief in God=/= being religious.

Also, many religious 'sightings' throughout history were performed under psychedelic drugs.

[citation needed]

The comparisons between alien and religious sightings are uncanny.

Except no.
biomystic
Posts: 606
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2/19/2014 7:00:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Let's get back to the OP shall we? There are two Fatal Flaws in the atheist religiously held belief system: One is lack of comprehension of the logic of history viz a vie human advancement in knowledge and physical powers to manipulate things. Two is failure to factor in over 40,000 years of demonstrated great human interest in spiritual phenomena that matches the capacity of human brains evolved to register and process spiritual input. These two facts about atheism destroy atheist ideology because it cannot provide logical answers to 1) why all knowledge stops at the atheist's time in order to "prove" atheists lack of knowledge of even current science that logic alone informs the intelligent person that no one is able to stop human knowledge advancement. Thus, whenever anyone says "It can't be done. It doesn't exist, i.e. making absolute judgments based on limited information. And logic tells the wise that no, human knowledge is not all known today in our times. That is absurd but it is the FUNDAMENTAL basis of atheist ideology--that all things are known to science right now and thus nothing new will ever be discovered about spiritual phenomena--this total atheist lie already exposed as such by brain science findings in the last 20 years, e.g. the God Gene and hardwired spiritually triggered physical responses MEASUREABLE to anyone who cares to do so--which is not your atheists who turn and run as fast as possible from actual spiritual recorded experiences of human beings.

When an atheist can explain scientifically how a human body shudders and quakes when spiritual epiphanies happen, when an atheist can explain how a human body sweats whenever spiritual epiphanies enter the mind of a religious visionary, then we theists will pay attention but you atheists can't do it. You can't explain how physical manifestations happen corresponding to spiritual experiences.
You atheists cannot explain why the world's most successful species at the top of the food chain devoted enormous amounts of social and personal time to religious behavior when you guys say "it's all imaginary"..No animal could ever be successful in survival if it were schizoid and seeing and hearing non-existent things yet human beings are living proof that spiritual consciousness and ultimate evolutionary advantage is with the spiritually conscious species..
bulproof
Posts: 25,197
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2/19/2014 7:46:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 4:27:34 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 4:24:49 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:59:31 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:45:16 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

I have a condom in orbit around Jupiter. Disprove that or else I have good reason to believe it's there.

That's not a very good analogy considering millions of reliable witnesses (philosophers, etc) claim to have seen God. If millions of people had seen the condom orbiting Jupiter, then maybe you would have a point, mate.

By the way, there are thousands of reliable people you could speak to today who will claim they have been abducted by aliens. Even entire groups of people will make this claim, all with correlating stories too. Do you believe them?

No, because almost all of them are drunks or in some sort of cult.

But when you have millions of sightings of God by ordinary non-intoxicated people then the claim becomes more plausible.
That's funny, cos according to the god they are alleged to have seen they wouldn't be around to make any claims. I guess they're all lying.
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etherealvoyager
Posts: 60
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2/19/2014 8:38:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

http://www.newappsblog.com...
etherealvoyager
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2/19/2014 8:38:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

Also, are you really a deist, as you claim?
Orangatang
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2/19/2014 10:50:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

Atheism is the lack of belief in a God. We don't make any claims we just don't believe the claims that theists make. Theists always hold the burden of proof when discussing the existence of God, this is known to be true to pretty much every intelligent debater and philosopher. Why does the theist hold the burden of proof? Consider the following:

Someone tells you that fairies exist. There are two possible default positions. Either you believe this person until someone disproves it. Or you don't believe until this person provides evidence/proof for fairies. It should be obvious that we should all disbelieve until evidence is brought up for the positive claim because if it were the other way around, we would be believing in a whole bunch of nonsense. This nonsense would be contradictory, not true, and there would be no way in hell that we would ever be able to prove that in no part of the universe there are no fairies.

Theists hold the BOP, the linked YouTube video should explain it to you in the beginning.
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bladerunner060
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2/19/2014 11:54:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 7:00:59 PM, biomystic wrote:
Let's get back to the OP shall we? There are two Fatal Flaws in the atheist religiously held belief system: One is lack of comprehension of the logic of history viz a vie human advancement in knowledge and physical powers to manipulate things.

What does that even mean?

Two is failure to factor in over 40,000 years of demonstrated great human interest in spiritual phenomena that matches the capacity of human brains evolved to register and process spiritual input.

No, it doesn't. It matches 40,000 years of myths and legends. Unless you have some evidence that "spiritual input" has ever been registered or processed. And I don't think you do.

These two facts about atheism destroy atheist ideology because it cannot provide logical answers to 1) why all knowledge stops at the atheist's time in order to "prove" atheists lack of knowledge of even current science that logic alone informs the intelligent person that no one is able to stop human knowledge advancement.

So, to be clear, your point here is "You don't KNOW there isn't a god, therefore there's a god", right?

Thus, whenever anyone says "It can't be done. It doesn't exist, i.e. making absolute judgments based on limited information. And logic tells the wise that no, human knowledge is not all known today in our times. That is absurd but it is the FUNDAMENTAL basis of atheist ideology

Ahhh, so you're just willing to lie to make a point. Gotcha.

--that all things are known to science right now and thus nothing new will ever be discovered about spiritual phenomena

No atheist I've ever known has actually asserted this. Citation needed.

--this total atheist lie already exposed as such by brain science findings in the last 20 years, e.g. the God Gene

The hypothesis that there is a gene that predisposes folks to spiritual experiences says nothing about the reality of those experiences.

and hardwired spiritually triggered physical responses MEASUREABLE to anyone who cares to do so

Oh? Please, show where these physical responses have been demonstrated and measured to be "spiritual" in nature.

--which is not your atheists who turn and run as fast as possible from actual spiritual recorded experiences of human beings.

There's a difference between "pointing out you have no actual evidence which cannot be trivially dismissed" and "turn[ing] and run[ning]".

When an atheist can explain scientifically how a human body shudders and quakes when spiritual epiphanies happen

They don't have to. If you assert it's a god, you have to show it's a god. Not the other way around.

when an atheist can explain how a human body sweats whenever spiritual epiphanies enter the mind of a religious visionary

Well, we know how a human body sweats. Or are you asking why a human sweats during an emotional experience? Because we know that too.

then we theists will pay attention

No, you won't. Because, 1, you don't speak for all theists and, 2, you've shown both a fundamental ignorance and a flat-out dishonesty, just in this post alone.

but you atheists can't do it. You can't explain how physical manifestations happen corresponding to spiritual experiences.

We. Don't. Have. To. You assert "This is the cause". Okay. Prove it. Until then, you've just made an assertion. And that which has been proposed without evidence, may be disposed of likewise.

You atheists cannot explain why the world's most successful species at the top of the food chain devoted enormous amounts of social and personal time to religious behavior when you guys say "it's all imaginary"..No animal could ever be successful in survival if it were schizoid and seeing and hearing non-existent things yet human beings are living proof that spiritual consciousness and ultimate evolutionary advantage is with the spiritually conscious species..

Ah, so an appeal to personal incredulity and popularity. Any other fallacies you'd like to bust out in your attempt to discredit the other side?
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Zarroette
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2/20/2014 12:43:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

That's right, meaning that theists have the burden of proof, in order to prove that there is evidence for a God or divine reality.


However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof.

No, they're rejecting the unsubstantiated claims.

If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

They're not claiming that there is no god, they're claiming that there is no reason to believe in one.
TheSquirrel
Posts: 83
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2/20/2014 9:24:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 3:36:49 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:30:24 PM, TheSquirrel wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

God is an extraordinary claim. I like the way I heard it put recently... they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I just want one (1) evidence. Any evidence.
Without that, how CAN I believe? You say atheists make the claim. There are those who do. They say there IS NO GOD. I make no claim. I simply do not believe. I have not been convinced.

So you are not an atheist but an agnostic. Cool beans.

No, I am not agnostic, I am atheist. I do not believe there is a god because no evidence has been given. You have the burden of proof, and the millions of witnesses thing applies to every religion ever and alien abductions and sightings, so it's no help there.
Pitbull15
Posts: 479
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2/20/2014 10:12:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 3:30:24 PM, TheSquirrel wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

God is an extraordinary claim. I like the way I heard it put recently... they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I just want one (1) evidence. Any evidence.
Without that, how CAN I believe? You say atheists make the claim. There are those who do. They say there IS NO GOD. I make no claim. I simply do not believe. I have not been convinced.

What kind of evidence are you asking for? You can't use physical evidence to prove something metaphysical in nature.
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Installgentoo
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2/20/2014 10:23:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 9:24:15 AM, TheSquirrel wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:36:49 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:30:24 PM, TheSquirrel wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

God is an extraordinary claim. I like the way I heard it put recently... they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I just want one (1) evidence. Any evidence.
Without that, how CAN I believe? You say atheists make the claim. There are those who do. They say there IS NO GOD. I make no claim. I simply do not believe. I have not been convinced.

So you are not an atheist but an agnostic. Cool beans.

No, I am not agnostic, I am atheist. I do not believe there is a god because no evidence has been given. You have the burden of proof,

No I don't, the burden of proof is on both of us. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
TheSquirrel
Posts: 83
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2/20/2014 10:59:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 10:23:59 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/20/2014 9:24:15 AM, TheSquirrel wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:36:49 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:30:24 PM, TheSquirrel wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

God is an extraordinary claim. I like the way I heard it put recently... they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I just want one (1) evidence. Any evidence.
Without that, how CAN I believe? You say atheists make the claim. There are those who do. They say there IS NO GOD. I make no claim. I simply do not believe. I have not been convinced.

So you are not an atheist but an agnostic. Cool beans.

No, I am not agnostic, I am atheist. I do not believe there is a god because no evidence has been given. You have the burden of proof,

No I don't, the burden of proof is on both of us. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

I don't claim there is no god. I do not believe there are any gods. Lack of belief and claims of non-existence are not the same.
TheSquirrel
Posts: 83
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2/20/2014 11:03:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 10:12:58 AM, Pitbull15 wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:30:24 PM, TheSquirrel wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

God is an extraordinary claim. I like the way I heard it put recently... they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I just want one (1) evidence. Any evidence.
Without that, how CAN I believe? You say atheists make the claim. There are those who do. They say there IS NO GOD. I make no claim. I simply do not believe. I have not been convinced.

What kind of evidence are you asking for? You can't use physical evidence to prove something metaphysical in nature.

I can not possibly conceive of all the myriad number of ways evidence can be provided to show god exists. Do you have any? Don't start so high! I hardly require proof! Just evidence.
Even if God is metaphysical, if he isn't a deistic god, he then interacts with the world. This would produce evidence.
tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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2/20/2014 11:05:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

Hitchens' Razor.
/thread
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)
Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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2/20/2014 11:51:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 3:30:24 PM, TheSquirrel wrote:

God is an extraordinary claim. I like the way I heard it put recently... they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I just want one (1) evidence. Any evidence.
Without that, how CAN I believe? You say atheists make the claim. There are those who do. They say there IS NO GOD. I make no claim. I simply do not believe. I have not been convinced.

There are no atheists. I make no claim. This is a case sample of TheSquirell's poor reasoning. *rationalizations incoming . . . *
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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2/20/2014 12:29:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 11:05:52 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

Hitchens' Razor.
/thread

There is no extraordinary evidence that the external world exists. Therefore, per Hitchen's razor, I choose not to believe in the external world.
Pitbull15
Posts: 479
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2/20/2014 12:35:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 11:03:00 AM, TheSquirrel wrote:
At 2/20/2014 10:12:58 AM, Pitbull15 wrote:
At 2/19/2014 3:30:24 PM, TheSquirrel wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

God is an extraordinary claim. I like the way I heard it put recently... they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but I just want one (1) evidence. Any evidence.
Without that, how CAN I believe? You say atheists make the claim. There are those who do. They say there IS NO GOD. I make no claim. I simply do not believe. I have not been convinced.

What kind of evidence are you asking for? You can't use physical evidence to prove something metaphysical in nature.

I can not possibly conceive of all the myriad number of ways evidence can be provided to show god exists. Do you have any? Don't start so high! I hardly require proof! Just evidence.
Even if God is metaphysical, if he isn't a deistic god, he then interacts with the world. This would produce evidence.

A case can be made for God through indirect observation, much like how gravity and evolution (mostly) have been proven. The Kalam Cosmological argument illustrates this decently.

The universe had a beginning
The universe then had a cause
Therefore, the universe had a beginning, and something caused that beginning

In order for the universe to have a beginning, which evidence supports (expanding universe, big bang, etc.), we would have to arrive at the conclusion that time and space have not always been here. So one could suppose that an outside intelligent agency that exists outside of time and space was responsible for the origin of the universe. Even in abiogenesis experiments, which intentions are to prove that life could arise out of nothing, we must understand that we don't know what the conditions were like back then and that the conditions in the experiments were still simulated by outside agents. (Human beings)
zmikecuber and I debate the Modal Ontological Argument
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tylergraham95
Posts: 1,461
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2/20/2014 12:37:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/20/2014 12:29:58 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 2/20/2014 11:05:52 AM, tylergraham95 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 8:40:35 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
A lot of atheists here claim that without evidence, people should not believe there is a God or divine reality.

However they are also making a claim here and so they also have a burden of proof. For example, if I say "earthworms do not a primitive form of consciousness", I have a burden of proof. If you deny something does not exist without anything backing up your claim, then you shoulder an impossible to shift burden of proof.

Hitchens' Razor.
/thread

There is no extraordinary evidence that the external world exists. Therefore, per Hitchen's razor, I choose not to believe in the external world.

There is evidence that the external world exist. It's all based on your observation. If you don't believe that your own observations imply evidence, then nothing exists.
"we dig" - Jeanette Runquist (1943 - 2015)