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Jesus Saves

Cerebral_Narcissist
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1/24/2010 9:06:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Apoligies as this is rather old hat as it were, but hopefully one day the message gets through and someone from the opposing side will attempt a cogent response.

This is a summation of the sort of conversation I've had here, and on other boards.

The claim.
If you believe in Jesus, and accept his sacrifice then you will be saved. Otherwise you are going to hell.

The Problem.
You do not decide to believe, your beliefs are based on logic, facts, evidence, gut intuition, indocrination etc. I might to have a pet dragon, I might want it more than anything, I am not capable of believing I have one.

I might want to believe in Jesus, but it is not up to me if I do or not is it? The crucifixtion is demonstratably not a sacrifice to appease God, and even if it was the need for it seems absent.

The Solution
God will reveal himself to those he chooses. The crucifixtion will make sense to those he gives faith to, the faithfull will hear the voice of God.

The Next Problem
So it really has nothing to do with me then does it? It makes no difference if I rent myself out to Stephen Dawkins, construct a satanic shrine, or abase myself before God till I can't feel my knees. It is God's choice whether or not I believe, there seems no way to court him or force his hand.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/25/2010 5:17:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/24/2010 9:06:12 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Apoligies as this is rather old hat as it were, but hopefully one day the message gets through and someone from the opposing side will attempt a cogent response.

This is a summation of the sort of conversation I've had here, and on other boards.

The claim.
If you believe in Jesus, and accept his sacrifice then you will be saved. Otherwise you are going to hell.

The Problem.
You do not decide to believe, your beliefs are based on logic, facts, evidence, gut intuition, indocrination etc. I might to have a pet dragon, I might want it more than anything, I am not capable of believing I have one.

I might want to believe in Jesus, but it is not up to me if I do or not is it? The crucifixtion is demonstratably not a sacrifice to appease God, and even if it was the need for it seems absent.

The Solution
God will reveal himself to those he chooses. The crucifixtion will make sense to those he gives faith to, the faithfull will hear the voice of God.

The Next Problem
So it really has nothing to do with me then does it? It makes no difference if I rent myself out to Stephen Dawkins, construct a satanic shrine, or abase myself before God till I can't feel my knees. It is God's choice whether or not I believe, there seems no way to court him or force his hand.


This is the type of excuse a school boy will bring up after failing at his homework.

God sees those who want Him and because of their free will at willing to know Him God will show Grace and save through the Lord Jesus Christ. God does not choose in the way you made it out to be, for if He did we would all enter the Kingdom of God.

God killed His own Son, unfairly. Adam and Eve were perfect until they broke God's law by being tempted by Satan, they were thrown out of the Garden and died. Jesus was tempted by Satan, resisted Satan and not once broke a single law of God, yet like Adam and Eve he still got the punishment of death. If you were clever enough you could work this out before it ever happened, before the death of Christ, it's a matter of making sense and saying, "Yes this seems to make sense." Which it does. You just need to widered you eyes, for I tell you that there is a picture in front of your eyes, you think it is 'real' and the truth because your eye are half closed, but you can punch right through the picture and see the truth.

We have all sinned and fallen short of God's Glory, how does God justifly our salavation and still remain Holy and Loving?

God is unlimited in power and Glory and Holiness, because God is none of our efforts will save us from justification, which is RIGHTEOUS and GOOD. RIGHTEOUSNESS is something that all should track in life, the law changes like the wind and is different depending where you go. Search a stable hold of RIGHEOUSNESS which is only found in God.

How does God keep Himself Holy and Good yet save the unrighteous and hell diserving? By becoming a man like us, doing and going through the troubles we go through and not sinning once being known as the 2nd Adam and dying unjustly as God Himself. It would have worked if a pure and perfect angel was sacrafised letalone a million pure and perfect angels as it needed to be God.

When Christ died he commanded his Spirit (the Holy Spirit) to go to the Father, and once Jesus rose again he completed the problem with sin. You can say and do as you wish, but if you want RIGHTEOUSNESS and FORGIVNESS, you MUST REPENT of all your SINS, and you will be saved.

Your sin will send you to hell if you choose to hold tight on to it. If you decide to take hold of it and if Christ is meaningless to you and you couldn't care about Christ but only your life NOW you cannot be saved.

You MUST find interest in Christ by understanding what you have commited against God, if this does not pass on any effect in that you do not feel guilt and shame upon your self which will be taken from you and where you WILL be made pure and spotless you WILL be cast into hell and that instead of Christ justifying you, hell will.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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1/25/2010 5:25:09 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/25/2010 5:17:54 AM, GodSands wrote:
Jesus was tempted by Satan, resisted Satan and not once broke a single law of God

If Jesus was/is God, could he have really been "tempted", for wouldn't he have true knowledge of right from wrong, truth from lies, and an indomitable will that wouldn't even broker thought on the matter.

And if this is the case, how is it impressive that he didn't give in to Satan? Of course he didn't, it would be absurd if he did.

If one knows the truth, trusting in lies is absurd.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/25/2010 5:29:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
It WOULDN'T have worked if a pure and perfect angel was sacrafised letalone a million pure and perfect angels as it needed to be God.

Sorry.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/25/2010 5:31:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/25/2010 5:25:09 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 1/25/2010 5:17:54 AM, GodSands wrote:
Jesus was tempted by Satan, resisted Satan and not once broke a single law of God

If Jesus was/is God, could he have really been "tempted", for wouldn't he have true knowledge of right from wrong, truth from lies, and an indomitable will that wouldn't even broker thought on the matter.

And if this is the case, how is it impressive that he didn't give in to Satan? Of course he didn't, it would be absurd if he did.

Christ didn't break a single law, I cannot prove that he didn't but you must believe. What more do you want? Does not your faith count for more than questions and proofs?

If one knows the truth, trusting in lies is absurd.
mattrodstrom
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1/25/2010 5:38:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/25/2010 5:31:57 AM, GodSands wrote:

Christ didn't break a single law, I cannot prove that he didn't but you must believe.
I didn't say he did. I don't really know and wouldn't pretend to.

What more do you want? Does not your faith count for more than questions and proofs?
I don't have "faith".

I was just pointing out that saying he was "tempted" doesn't make sense, being that he's held to be god. (the christian)"God" knows how things are/how they ought to be and wouldn't consider anything else. To be "tempted" christ would have had to have thought about/considered the devils proposals, which just doesn't make sense if he is god.

I think it would be more consistent if you said the devil (stupidly) tried to tempt him.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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1/25/2010 6:14:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/25/2010 5:17:54 AM, GodSands wrote:
God sees those who want Him and because of their free will at willing to know Him God will show Grace and save through the Lord Jesus Christ. God does not choose in the way you made it out to be, for if He did we would all enter the Kingdom of God.

But God is God. Wouldnt he know what sort of personal experience would be suffice to convince any of us?

For example, there are people who convert to christianity, who are earnestly searching for God, but after some odd years they find no evidence or personal experience and therefore become Atheist. Why wouldnt God show evidence to them, but Joe blow the neighbor whos never been to church and whos an atheist, gets into a car crash and has a near death experience and he converts to christianity, how is that fair in any way?

God killed His own Son, unfairly. Adam and Eve were perfect until they broke God's law by being tempted by Satan, they were thrown out of the Garden and died. Jesus was tempted by Satan, resisted Satan and not once broke a single law of God, yet like Adam and Eve he still got the punishment of death. If you were clever enough you could work this out before it ever happened, before the death of Christ, it's a matter of making sense and saying, "Yes this seems to make sense." Which it does. You just need to widered you eyes, for I tell you that there is a picture in front of your eyes, you think it is 'real' and the truth because your eye are half closed, but you can punch right through the picture and see the truth.

How does this make sense.

First, Adam and Eve had no concept of good or evil, right or wrong. So how is it fair to punish a baby?

Secondly, The bible never says that the snake was Satan. Otherwise, why would God punish the snake and not Satan? Was it impossible for God to see through the disguise?

Thirdly, wasnt Jesus known for having broken many laws of the Old Testament, or in other words, the laws of God?

Fourthly, isnt your argument, that is, one must Widered ones eyes(???) in order to see the truth, one that can be applied to ANY religion? How do you make an exception for your own, and reject the claims of other religions which use the same argument? Isnt that called Hypocracy?

We have all sinned and fallen short of God's Glory, how does God justifly our salavation and still remain Holy and Loving?

By simply forgiving us, without a blood sacrifice or anything?

God is unlimited in power and Glory and Holiness, because God is none of our efforts will save us from justification, which is RIGHTEOUS and GOOD. RIGHTEOUSNESS is something that all should track in life, the law changes like the wind and is different depending where you go. Search a stable hold of RIGHEOUSNESS which is only found in God.

Again, Couldnt God just forgive all of us, without a blood sacrifice? Or change the levitical laws?

The rest of this is just preaching. In any case, your argument fails no matter how you look at it. Wait, scratch that, theres one way of looking at it that makes your argument valid, and thats with the Bible glasses.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/25/2010 7:07:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/25/2010 5:17:54 AM, GodSands wrote:

This is the type of excuse a school boy will bring up after failing at his homework.


And yet I have had this conversation so many times, only to be presented with vague contradictions and then ignored when the excuses are too absurd to continue.

God sees those who want Him and because of their free will at willing to know Him God will show Grace and save through the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is demonstrably false, how many people who have desired to see God have actually gained some form of revelation?

God does not choose in the way you made it out to be, for if He did we would all enter the Kingdom of God.


Why can't he?

God killed His own Son, unfairly.

God is unfair?

Adam and Eve were perfect until they broke God's law by being tempted by Satan, they were thrown out of the Garden and died.

If they were tempted, then they were not perfect. If God was an omniscient, omnipotent being then logically he created Adam and Eve as flawed beings, in the foreknowledge that they would be tempted by Satan.

Jesus was tempted by Satan, resisted Satan and not once broke a single law of God, yet like Adam and Eve he still got the punishment of death.

This only makes sense if you are a non-trinitarian. Otherwise Jesus is God.


We have all sinned and fallen short of God's Glory, how does God justifly our salavation and still remain Holy and Loving?


We have been designed to sin, predetermind to sin. How does it make sense for God to build internal flaws, then punish us for succumbing to them when that would have clearly been his intention all along?


How does God keep Himself Holy and Good yet save the unrighteous and hell diserving? By becoming a man like us, doing and going through the troubles we go through and not sinning once being known as the 2nd Adam and dying unjustly as God Himself. It would have worked if a pure and perfect angel was sacrafised letalone a million pure and perfect angels as it needed to be God.

When Christ died he commanded his Spirit (the Holy Spirit) to go to the Father, and once Jesus rose again he completed the problem with sin. You can say and do as you wish, but if you want RIGHTEOUSNESS and FORGIVNESS, you MUST REPENT of all your SINS, and you will be saved.

This makes absolutely no sense whatsover. How did the death of Jesus effect God's attitude to sin?


Your sin will send you to hell if you choose to hold tight on to it. If you decide to take hold of it and if Christ is meaningless to you and you couldn't care about Christ but only your life NOW you cannot be saved.


Then no one can be saved, the primary motive for embracing Jesus would always be personal survival post death.

You MUST find interest in Christ by understanding what you have commited against God, if this does not pass on any effect in that you do not feel guilt and shame upon your self which will be taken from you and where you WILL be made pure and spotless you WILL be cast into hell and that instead of Christ justifying you, hell will.

A doctine that makes no sense at all.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/25/2010 7:09:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/25/2010 5:29:08 AM, GodSands wrote:
It WOULDN'T have worked if a pure and perfect angel was sacrafised letalone a million pure and perfect angels as it needed to be God.

Sorry.

How does it work with God?

Sin seperates man from God, okay fine lets accept that.
So God kills himself.
All the people who say, hey God killed himself what a dude... get to rejoin God.
All the people who say, no way man, get to go to hell.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
the-good-teacher
Posts: 444
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1/25/2010 6:40:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Jesus held the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Col 2:9) = Jesus is the Jehovah Elohim (= LORD God),
here is the wedding procedure and it is in perfect alignment with Jewish wedding customs as provided by God,

1. Eph 1:4, God the Father chose us to be the bride of Christ.

2. Rom 10:9, Believe and confess with your mouth. (repent)

3. 2 Cor 1:22, The Holy Spirit is our "earnest" or "down payment" on our relationship to Christ. (dowry)

4. 2 Cor 11:2, we are betrothed, or espoused to Christ, and He has gone to prepare a place for us (John 14:2&3). The Church Age is the betrothal period.

5. 1 Thess 4:16&17, The Rapture of the Church. We are removed from our "home" (earth) and taken to His "home" (heaven). Also see Rev 4:1 and an Old Testament picture in Isa 26:19-21.

6. The Tribulation martyrs and those who physically live through the Tribulation are the friends of the bride. They knew Church Age saints in person prior to the Rapture.

7. The Old Testament saints are the friends of the groom. Many of them knew Jesus in His earthly ministry.

8. The Bible even indicates that Jesus, the groom, has a "best man", John 3:27-30, John the Baptist will be the "best man".

9. The wedding guests are fitted with a robe, Rev 19:8. Our robe is the righteousness imputed to us by Christ. In Mat 22:11, we see a man without one.

10. The bride and groom consummate the marriage in the wedding chamber. The Church is already judged (2 Cor 5:10), rewarded (1 Cor 3:9-15), and declared to be married to Jesus in heaven (Rev 19:7-9), when the Church returns to earth with Jesus (Rev 19:11-16).

11. Israel is always pictured in the wedding illustrations as OUTSIDE the wedding chamber, waiting for the bride and groom to come out, and the celebration, or supper, to begin. Luke 12:36 is a good illustration.

Amazing! The duration and extravagance of the wedding celebration in the ancient world was only limited by the wealth of the groom's father, and these parties were known to last for months in the time of Christ!

To me, this makes the Millennium a 1000 year wedding celebration given by our Heavenly Father, who owns everything, for His Son, Jesus, and we are the bride.

And for any of you wondering, the Father does choose us, we cannot choose him!!
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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1/25/2010 8:14:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think that acting like Christ would in fact save you in many ways. The problem is that that Christianity isn't about acting like Christ, it's about acting like other Christians.
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/26/2010 6:46:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/25/2010 8:14:49 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I think that acting like Christ would in fact save you in many ways. The problem is that that Christianity isn't about acting like Christ, it's about acting like other Christians.

Being a Christian is being Christ like by faith and love. Not acting like other Christians, be your self in Christ.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/26/2010 10:55:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/26/2010 6:46:37 AM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/25/2010 8:14:49 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I think that acting like Christ would in fact save you in many ways. The problem is that that Christianity isn't about acting like Christ, it's about acting like other Christians.

Being a Christian is being Christ like by faith and love. Not acting like other Christians, be your self in Christ.

Any thoughts on the questions I put to you?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/26/2010 12:54:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/26/2010 10:55:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/26/2010 6:46:37 AM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/25/2010 8:14:49 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I think that acting like Christ would in fact save you in many ways. The problem is that that Christianity isn't about acting like Christ, it's about acting like other Christians.

Being a Christian is being Christ like by faith and love. Not acting like other Christians, be your self in Christ.

Any thoughts on the questions I put to you?


Yeah list up your questions please. :)
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/26/2010 1:03:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/26/2010 12:54:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/26/2010 10:55:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/26/2010 6:46:37 AM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/25/2010 8:14:49 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I think that acting like Christ would in fact save you in many ways. The problem is that that Christianity isn't about acting like Christ, it's about acting like other Christians.

Being a Christian is being Christ like by faith and love. Not acting like other Christians, be your self in Christ.

Any thoughts on the questions I put to you?


Yeah list up your questions please. :)

Already have, so I have to assume you have abandoned your position.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/26/2010 1:07:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/26/2010 1:03:15 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/26/2010 12:54:02 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/26/2010 10:55:36 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 1/26/2010 6:46:37 AM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/25/2010 8:14:49 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I think that acting like Christ would in fact save you in many ways. The problem is that that Christianity isn't about acting like Christ, it's about acting like other Christians.

Being a Christian is being Christ like by faith and love. Not acting like other Christians, be your self in Christ.

Any thoughts on the questions I put to you?


Yeah list up your questions please. :)

Already have, so I have to assume you have abandoned your position.


No give me your questions and I will try and answer them.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/27/2010 1:59:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Still nothing?

Do we actually have any believers here?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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1/28/2010 3:41:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 9:06:12 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Apoligies as this is rather old hat as it were, but hopefully one day the message gets through and someone from the opposing side will attempt a cogent response.

This is a summation of the sort of conversation I've had here, and on other boards.

The claim.
If you believe in Jesus, and accept his sacrifice then you will be saved. Otherwise you are going to hell.

The Problem.
You do not decide to believe, your beliefs are based on logic, facts, evidence, gut intuition, indocrination etc. I might to have a pet dragon, I might want it more than anything, I am not capable of believing I have one.

I might want to believe in Jesus, but it is not up to me if I do or not is it? The crucifixtion is demonstratably not a sacrifice to appease God, and even if it was the need for it seems absent.

The Solution
God will reveal himself to those he chooses. The crucifixtion will make sense to those he gives faith to, the faithfull will hear the voice of God.

The Next Problem
So it really has nothing to do with me then does it? It makes no difference if I rent myself out to Stephen Dawkins, construct a satanic shrine, or abase myself before God till I can't feel my knees. It is God's choice whether or not I believe, there seems no way to court him or force his hand.

Yes, you DO decide what you believe; you work out in a milisecond what and who it's going to cost you and then you purposely reject Jesus Christ.
The Cross.. the Cross.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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1/28/2010 3:55:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 3:41:21 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Yes, you DO decide what you believe; you work out in a milisecond what and who it's going to cost you and then you purposely reject Jesus Christ.

So if i lie to myself and say "I believe in Jesus", i am saved?
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/28/2010 4:07:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/28/2010 3:55:32 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/28/2010 3:41:21 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Yes, you DO decide what you believe; you work out in a milisecond what and who it's going to cost you and then you purposely reject Jesus Christ.

So if i lie to myself and say "I believe in Jesus", i am saved?


No, infact believing in something is not making a decidition, if you believe stealing in need is wrong you cannot choose to believe it is right by consulting your self with whether it is right or wrong. Again either you have a personal experience which intensly changes your beliefs, or depending on your up bringing you will use reason and logic to decide whether or not something is right or wrong based on how you were brought up.

I can tell you that accepting Christ into your heart has nothing to do with decidition making, for if it was you could just as easily turn away from Christ, God has you in His hands how can anything snatch you away? Your love towards God keeps you wanting to belong to God by your own will, that you have become a new creature, you do not become a new creature when you choose chocolate ice cream over strawberry ice cream! That is a decidition, accepting Christ passes that and changes not only your mind but your inner being, soul and heart.
GodSands
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1/28/2010 4:25:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Basically aply the evolutionary thought of change over time to an individual life, and that change you apparently get over millions of years is cut down to a single life time, with the same value and pay off of millions of years of effort into a single life span.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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1/28/2010 4:31:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 4:25:34 AM, GodSands wrote:
Basically aply the evolutionary thought of change over time to an individual life, and that change you apparently get over millions of years is cut down to a single life time, with the same value and pay off of millions of years of effort into a single life span.

Am I the only person who thinks this makes absolutely no sense at all?
GodSands
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1/28/2010 4:39:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/28/2010 4:31:25 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 1/28/2010 4:25:34 AM, GodSands wrote:
Basically aply the evolutionary thought of change over time to an individual life, and that change you apparently get over millions of years is cut down to a single life time, with the same value and pay off of millions of years of effort into a single life span.

Am I the only person who thinks this makes absolutely no sense at all?


I'll explain in more detail later on.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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1/28/2010 5:08:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 4:07:39 AM, GodSands wrote:

No, infact believing in something is not making a decidition, if you believe stealing in need is wrong you cannot choose to believe it is right by consulting your self with whether it is right or wrong. Again either you have a personal experience which intensly changes your beliefs, or depending on your up bringing you will use reason and logic to decide whether or not something is right or wrong based on how you were brought up.
Then i was right, and Datcmoto was wrong. You cannot choose to believe without being convinced of that belief beforehand.

Thanks for proving my point, and for proving Datcmoto wrong.
GodSands
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1/28/2010 5:48:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/28/2010 5:08:15 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/28/2010 4:07:39 AM, GodSands wrote:

No, infact believing in something is not making a decidition, if you believe stealing in need is wrong you cannot choose to believe it is right by consulting your self with whether it is right or wrong. Again either you have a personal experience which intensly changes your beliefs, or depending on your up bringing you will use reason and logic to decide whether or not something is right or wrong based on how you were brought up.
Then i was right, and Datcmoto was wrong. You cannot choose to believe without being convinced of that belief beforehand.

Thanks for proving my point, and for proving Datcmoto wrong.


I don't think anyone can become converted by repeating a prayer, DATC is more convinced by the sinners prayer or maybe not? I don't know. I am not at all. So yes you are right in my opioion, you cannot decide to become a Christian using your mind. Your mind allows interest in Christ, but being interested in Christ does not convert anyone. Somone who decides to read a prayer maybe interested in Christ, but interests only comsume the mind. When you chase God and His righteousness God will sper you on to chase Him.

To become a Christian you must lose all interest in sin and give up on self by understanding that you have broken every law of God, that will show that you have faith in Christ, for me this took about 3 to 4 weeks of searching.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/28/2010 6:27:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 5:08:15 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/28/2010 4:07:39 AM, GodSands wrote:

No, infact believing in something is not making a decidition, if you believe stealing in need is wrong you cannot choose to believe it is right by consulting your self with whether it is right or wrong. Again either you have a personal experience which intensly changes your beliefs, or depending on your up bringing you will use reason and logic to decide whether or not something is right or wrong based on how you were brought up.
Then i was right, and Datcmoto was wrong. You cannot choose to believe without being convinced of that belief beforehand.

Thanks for proving my point, and for proving Datcmoto wrong.

I second that thanks, now is a believer going to properly address my questions!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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1/28/2010 6:30:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 5:48:50 AM, GodSands wrote:
To become a Christian you must lose all interest in sin and give up on self by understanding that you have broken every law of God, that will show that you have faith in Christ, for me this took about 3 to 4 weeks of searching.

Let me understand this...

In order to become a follower of Christ, you must give up anything and everything that makes you an individual and human, bow to the overwhelming superiority of a despot that you cannot see let alone view/feel the affects of, and go through some grand moral inquest that takes up weeks of your time, only to come out on the other side completely devoid of any critical thoughts or individuality - or, essentially, become a sheep.

Sounds fun.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/28/2010 6:46:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/28/2010 6:30:36 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 1/28/2010 5:48:50 AM, GodSands wrote:
To become a Christian you must lose all interest in sin and give up on self by understanding that you have broken every law of God, that will show that you have faith in Christ, for me this took about 3 to 4 weeks of searching.

Let me understand this...

In order to become a follower of Christ, you must give up anything and everything that makes you an individual and human, bow to the overwhelming superiority of a despot that you cannot see let alone view/feel the affects of, and go through some grand moral inquest that takes up weeks of your time, only to come out on the other side completely devoid of any critical thoughts or individuality - or, essentially, become a sheep.

Sounds fun.


No! And with that last statment "Sounds fun." shows that you had another intention rather than truely understanding what I meant by what I said, the intention being understanding it in a way that seems right and reasonable to you given that you will have no guilt.

You give up on sin and everything worthless, for example give up on wanting to become a Hollywood star or wanting to be a millionaire. Chase righteousness which is of God, find interest in Christ by understanding that you have broken every rule of God. Don't just become a theist, that is merely possitive thinking. Believing in God as a theist is like wanting to stick your head into the jaws of a crocodile and say, "Close tight those jaws on my head." God will destroy you and crush you if it were not for Christ.

So accept Christ not as a decidition but as a confession, have a confession to make in Christ, say it clearly so that you your self who is in sin and who lives in sin will find no comfort in sin any longer. So that you wage war on your own self, this is seeking the righteousness of God.

Of course you will still be your self, you will still like the generatiation of things you liked according to your personality, for if you liked cycling you will still enjoy it, video gaming however and these type of things you know that God hates, for God knows what is right for you, you will be willing to gives such things up due to your love for God who has saved you.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/29/2010 12:08:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 6:46:12 AM, GodSands wrote:
video gaming however and these type of things you know that God hates, for God knows what is right for you, you will be willing to gives such things up due to your love for God who has saved you.

What does God have against video games?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.