Total Posts:32|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Your God does not exist

Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
As an atheist it drives me crazy when theists try to portray an atheist as someone who necessarily believes God does not exist. The reason why Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in a God, as opposed to a belief that God does not exist is in part because proving that something does not exist requires it to be defined, and everyone seems to have a different definition. So let's play a game. If you're a theist please answer the following questions with a simple yes or no, and myself along with other atheists will tell you if your God is possible, or why he does not exist:

1. Intelligent
2. Perfect
3. Creator of the universe
4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)
5. All knowing
6. All powerful
7. All loving
8. Timeless
9. Unchanging
10. Just
11. Present everywhere
12. Independent (self-existent)
13. Merciful
14. Grantor of free will
15. Desires worship
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,384
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/18/2014 9:59:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 8:44:34 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
I don't know why people think there is more than one definition of God. Look at a dictionary, ffs.
Generally if it's a case where someone is mad at someone (like God), there's sort of a feeling that the more descriptives are added, the better. So if, say, someone were angry with God, it wouldn't be enough to say "why you creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; supreme being". So thus additional words like megalomaniac are sometimes added to give God that additional little sting.
Romanii
Posts: 4,863
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/18/2014 10:13:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:

Yes to all except...

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)

Bcause that is not compatible with omnibenevolence.

5. All knowing
6. All powerful

Because atheists tend to abuse these words to try and create stupid paradoxes.

15. Desires worship

Because it would be somewhat pathetic for a supernatural deity's sense of personal security to rely on puny humans worshiping him.
superflymegastallion
Posts: 370
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/18/2014 5:55:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 10:13:36 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:

Yes to all except...

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)

Bcause that is not compatible with omnibenevolence.
Yes, Hell would make god evil.


5. All knowing
6. All powerful

Because atheists tend to abuse these words to try and create stupid paradoxes.
Guilty, but please don't pretend that many (most) Christians don't put these attributes into their god.


15. Desires worship

Because it would be somewhat pathetic for a supernatural deity's sense of personal security to rely on puny humans worshiping him.
Yes, it would be quite crazy for this to happen.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/18/2014 7:27:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
As an atheist it drives me crazy when theists try to portray an atheist as someone who necessarily believes God does not exist. The reason why Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in a God, as opposed to a belief that God does not exist is in part because proving that something does not exist requires it to be defined, and everyone seems to have a different definition. So let's play a game. If you're a theist please answer the following questions with a simple yes or no, and myself along with other atheists will tell you if your God is possible, or why he does not exist:

1. Intelligent
2. Perfect
3. Creator of the universe
4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)
5. All knowing
6. All powerful
7. All loving
8. Timeless
9. Unchanging
10. Just
11. Present everywhere
12. Independent (self-existent)
13. Merciful
14. Grantor of free will
15. Desires worship

IMHO I believe that atheists need to be categorized if they really want people to recognize their stance more precisely. Some atheists obviously do necessarily believe that God does not exist, and make that clear by pointing-out why his existence is necessarily impossible. Some think that belief in God is a danger to civilization. And then there are old-school atheists as opposed to new-school atheists.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/18/2014 8:01:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
As an atheist it drives me crazy when theists try to portray an atheist as someone who necessarily believes God does not exist. The reason why Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in a God, as opposed to a belief that God does not exist is in part because proving that something does not exist requires it to be defined, and everyone seems to have a different definition. So let's play a game. If you're a theist please answer the following questions with a simple yes or no, and myself along with other atheists will tell you if your God is possible, or why he does not exist:

1. Intelligent

Yes.

2. Perfect

Yes, in the sense that that which is pure actuality cannot be imperfect, since imperfectness implies potency.

3. Creator of the universe

Yes, since the world is a mental construct of God.

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)

Hell is a state, not a place. It is the state that people put themselves into.

5. All knowing

Yes.

6. All powerful

Yes.

7. All loving

Yes, God wills what is best for us. If he did not, he would not be perfect.

8. Timeless

Yes, that which is pure actuality, divinely simple, and non-physical does not inhabit time.

9. Unchanging

Yes.

10. Just

Yes.

11. Present everywhere

Yes, God is present everywhere through his effects. In other words, God is present everywhere in the way that the foundations of a house are present.

12. Independent (self-existent)

Yes, the unmoved mover, or the uncaused cause. Pure subsistent being does not need an external cause.

13. Merciful

Yes.

14. Grantor of free will

God creates us and moves us according to our nature.

15. Desires worship

Yes, but not because he needs it. Rather, because as rational beings, we are directed towards the truth. God, being the highest truth, is the fulfillment of our very nature as rational beings. So God desires worship, since it is what is good for us.

Now let me hear my verdict ;)
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/18/2014 10:47:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 8:01:21 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:

Now let me hear my verdict ;)

And the verdict is... Sorry, your God does not exist.

Reasons:

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)

Hell is a state, not a place. It is the state that people put themselves into.

6. All powerful

Yes.

7. All loving

Yes, God wills what is best for us. If he did not, he would not be perfect.

If a being decides to take an action, there are one of 3 reasons: He is controlled, he is fulfilling his needs, he is fulfilling his desires.

An all powerful being can not be controlled. Therefore he is either fulfilling his needs or desires.

The distinction between a need and a desire, is that failure to fulfill a need results in a negative impact on one's well-being. A desire is something that if fulfilled, results in a positive impact on one's well-being.

An all powerful being has no needs because he has complete control over his well-being. Any circumstance that threaten his well-being can simply be changed. Therefore any action taken by an all powerful being is done so to fulfill his own desires.

Any being that desires a [state] of eternal torture contradicts any reasonable definition of all loving.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/18/2014 10:47:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 8:01:21 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:

Now let me hear my verdict ;)

And the verdict is... Sorry, your God does not exist.

Reasons:

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)

Hell is a state, not a place. It is the state that people put themselves into.

6. All powerful

Yes.

7. All loving

Yes, God wills what is best for us. If he did not, he would not be perfect.

If a being decides to take an action, there are one of 3 reasons: He is controlled, he is fulfilling his needs, he is fulfilling his desires.

An all powerful being can not be controlled. Therefore he is either fulfilling his needs or desires.

The distinction between a need and a desire, is that failure to fulfill a need results in a negative impact on one's well-being. A desire is something that if fulfilled, results in a positive impact on one's well-being.

An all powerful being has no needs because he has complete control over his well-being. Any circumstance that threaten his well-being can simply be changed. Therefore any action taken by an all powerful being is done so to fulfill his own desires.

Any being that desires a [state] of eternal torture contradicts any reasonable definition of all loving.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/18/2014 10:57:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 10:13:36 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:

Yes to all except...

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)
5. All knowing
6. All powerful
15. Desires worship

And the verdict is... Sorry, Your God does not exist.

Reason:

1. Intelligent
8. Timeless

Intelligence: the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.

While this is certainly a standard definition, I will focus more on the application of knowledge process.

To be intelligent is to have the ability to make decisions.

To make decisions requires one to begin in a state of being undecided, and transition to a state of being decided.

Changing from one state to another is necessarily a temporal occurrence.

A being that exists outside of time can not transition in a timeless existence.

Therefore, a being can not simultaneously be timeless and intelligent.
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 1:44:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
As an atheist it drives me crazy when theists try to portray an atheist as someone who necessarily believes God does not exist. The reason why Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in a God, as opposed to a belief that God does not exist is in part because proving that something does not exist requires it to be defined, and everyone seems to have a different definition.

So are you saying that you are a closet agnostic who calls self "atheist"?

So let's play a game. If you're a theist please answer the following questions with a simple yes or no, and myself along with other atheists will tell you if your God is possible, or why he does not exist:

1. Intelligent
Considering the existence of order alongside complexity, it would be very plausible for the original creator to be intelligent. Since he created the universe, very likely to be omniscient.

2. Perfect
Since God, by definition, have no need for anything else, then he is perfect.

3. Creator of the universe
There is bound to be one or something. Whether it is intelligent or random.

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)
Religious concept. Certain religions must be confirmed for this concept to be confirmed.

5. All knowing
Since he created the universe, very likely for a personal god.

6. All powerful
Extremely powerful to create the universe. Possible to be all-powerful.

7. All loving
Answers have a wide variety based on assumptions on different fields. I believe many religious people would say yes.

8. Timeless
If time have no necessity to exist, or for a boundary for the concept to make sense to exist, it would mean that it was created. Which would mean that God is timeless.

9. Unchanging
Goes with "Perfect", since change comes from either ignorance or need to improve.

10. Just
Answers have a wide variety based on assumptions on different fields. I believe many religious people would say yes.

11. Present everywhere
Since God have no need for physical body, probably.

12. Independent (self-existent)
If God, or anything else, is not created, then the being exists based on it's necessity.

13. Merciful
Answers have a wide variety based on assumptions on different fields. I believe many religious people would say yes.

14. Grantor of free will
If free will exists, it would mean that it was granted.

15. Desires worship
Not desire or need. Being worshiped is a manifestation of his attributes and supremacy.
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 9:30:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 10:47:26 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/18/2014 8:01:21 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:

Now let me hear my verdict ;)

And the verdict is... Sorry, your God does not exist.

Reasons:

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)

Hell is a state, not a place. It is the state that people put themselves into.

6. All powerful

Yes.

7. All loving

Yes, God wills what is best for us. If he did not, he would not be perfect.

If a being decides to take an action, there are one of 3 reasons: He is controlled, he is fulfilling his needs, he is fulfilling his desires.


No... It's just God's nature to will what is good for us.

An all powerful being can not be controlled. Therefore he is either fulfilling his needs or desires.

The distinction between a need and a desire, is that failure to fulfill a need results in a negative impact on one's well-being. A desire is something that if fulfilled, results in a positive impact on one's well-being.

An all powerful being has no needs because he has complete control over his well-being. Any circumstance that threaten his well-being can simply be changed. Therefore any action taken by an all powerful being is done so to fulfill his own desires.


I guess you could say that God cannot not will what is good for us, since this would be a contradiction of himself.

Any being that desires a [state] of eternal torture contradicts any reasonable definition of all loving.

I never said he did though... :P I said he wills what is best for us. So even when we refuse that love, he still wills what is best for us. And that's what makes hell torturous.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 10:19:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 1:44:30 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
As an atheist it drives me crazy when theists try to portray an atheist as someone who necessarily believes God does not exist. The reason why Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in a God, as opposed to a belief that God does not exist is in part because proving that something does not exist requires it to be defined, and everyone seems to have a different definition.

So are you saying that you are a closet agnostic who calls self "atheist"?

Would you care to make sense out of your question? Do you know what an atheist is?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 10:27:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 9:30:18 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/18/2014 10:47:26 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/18/2014 8:01:21 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:

Now let me hear my verdict ;)

And the verdict is... Sorry, your God does not exist.

Reasons:

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)

Hell is a state, not a place. It is the state that people put themselves into.

6. All powerful

Yes.

7. All loving

Yes, God wills what is best for us. If he did not, he would not be perfect.

If a being decides to take an action, there are one of 3 reasons: He is controlled, he is fulfilling his needs, he is fulfilling his desires.


No... It's just God's nature to will what is good for us.

Ah, the "God's nature" argument.

Q1: Where did God's nature come from? What is its source?
Q2: How does Gods nature refute that Gods actions are in accordance with one of the 3 options listed above?
Q3: If it is in God's nature to send us to hell (whatever you think it is) then why do you worship him?

I never said he did though... :P I said he wills what is best for us. So even when we refuse that love, he still wills what is best for us. And that's what makes hell torturous.

You disputed that hell was a place, calling it a "state" instead. You never disputed the part of eternal torture. I took that as an admission of the latter.

Do you dispute that hell is eternally torturous?
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 10:32:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 10:27:38 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/19/2014 9:30:18 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/18/2014 10:47:26 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/18/2014 8:01:21 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:

Now let me hear my verdict ;)

And the verdict is... Sorry, your God does not exist.

Reasons:

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)

Hell is a state, not a place. It is the state that people put themselves into.

6. All powerful

Yes.

7. All loving

Yes, God wills what is best for us. If he did not, he would not be perfect.

If a being decides to take an action, there are one of 3 reasons: He is controlled, he is fulfilling his needs, he is fulfilling his desires.


No... It's just God's nature to will what is good for us.

Ah, the "God's nature" argument.

Q1: Where did God's nature come from? What is its source?

It didn't "come from" anywhere. It doesn't have a source, because it IS the source.

Q2: How does Gods nature refute that Gods actions are in accordance with one of the 3 options listed above?

Because God wills in accord with his nature... if he didn't he would contradict himself, and thus wouldn't be God. So God can only will what is good for us, by his very being.

Q3: If it is in God's nature to send us to hell (whatever you think it is) then why do you worship him?


We send ourselves to hell. God is good, and loves everyone. But some people reject his love, and choose hell.

I never said he did though... :P I said he wills what is best for us. So even when we refuse that love, he still wills what is best for us. And that's what makes hell torturous.

You disputed that hell was a place, calling it a "state" instead. You never disputed the part of eternal torture. I took that as an admission of the latter.

Do you dispute that hell is eternally torturous?

It's a state that people put themselves in. Yes, it's eternally torturous, but that's because the person has put their entire will into rejecting God's love. Right now our will is clouded, but when we die, we can make a perfect act of the will, from which there is no return. SO if you reject God's love, then God continues to love you... which is part of the torture. The other part of the torture is knowing that only you are to blame.

It's like the person who sits in the corner and refuses to take part in the party... and you can imagine how being around chirpy happy people makes them upset.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 11:16:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 10:32:22 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/19/2014 10:27:38 AM, Double_R wrote:
Q1: Where did God's nature come from? What is its source?

It didn't "come from" anywhere. It doesn't have a source, because it IS the source.

Q2: How does Gods nature refute that Gods actions are in accordance with one of the 3 options listed above?

Because God wills in accord with his nature... if he didn't he would contradict himself, and thus wouldn't be God. So God can only will what is good for us, by his very being.

If he wills in accord with his nature, and his nature is to allow us to suffer eternally, then God desires us to suffer eternally.

You can not claim that something being a part of someone's nature refutes that it is in accordance with their desires. That is just as silly as me saying that I have no desire to sleep with women, it is just my nature.

Q3: If it is in God's nature to send us to hell (whatever you think it is) then why do you worship him?

We send ourselves to hell. God is good, and loves everyone. But some people reject his love, and choose hell.

That is the single worst theistic argument out there. Do you not realize that it is a logical contradiction to choose to go to a place you do not believe exists?

And even if we do somehow choose to go to hell, God still created it along with the circumstances which require us to go there so he still has ultimate responsibility. If I hold a gun to your head and tell you to give me $100 or I'll shoot and you refuse, that does not mean you committed suicide.

You disputed that hell was a place, calling it a "state" instead. You never disputed the part of eternal torture. I took that as an admission of the latter.

Do you dispute that hell is eternally torturous?

It's a state that people put themselves in. Yes, it's eternally torturous, but that's because the person has put their entire will into rejecting God's love. Right now our will is clouded, but when we die, we can make a perfect act of the will, from which there is no return. SO if you reject God's love, then God continues to love you... which is part of the torture. The other part of the torture is knowing that only you are to blame.

I do not reject Gods love, I reject the source of the claim that he and his love exist.

It's like the person who sits in the corner and refuses to take part in the party... and you can imagine how being around chirpy happy people makes them upset.

That person can join the party at any time. Are you telling me that I will only be in hell as long as I feel like it, and that when I get tired of everyone else having the time of their... eternity... that I can just leave hell and join them?
Dragonfang
Posts: 1,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 11:20:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 10:19:29 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:44:30 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
As an atheist it drives me crazy when theists try to portray an atheist as someone who necessarily believes God does not exist. The reason why Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in a God, as opposed to a belief that God does not exist is in part because proving that something does not exist requires it to be defined, and everyone seems to have a different definition.

So are you saying that you are a closet agnostic who calls self "atheist"?

Would you care to make sense out of your question? Do you know what an atheist is?

Yeah, and you are redefining the term in order to get rid of shouldering the burden of proof. The keyword is "Atheist", not "Non-Theist".
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 11:24:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:16:50 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/19/2014 10:32:22 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/19/2014 10:27:38 AM, Double_R wrote:
Q1: Where did God's nature come from? What is its source?

It didn't "come from" anywhere. It doesn't have a source, because it IS the source.

Q2: How does Gods nature refute that Gods actions are in accordance with one of the 3 options listed above?

Because God wills in accord with his nature... if he didn't he would contradict himself, and thus wouldn't be God. So God can only will what is good for us, by his very being.

If he wills in accord with his nature, and his nature is to allow us to suffer eternally, then God desires us to suffer eternally.


Not really. That doesn't really follow. God doesn't desire any of us to suffer eternally. However, he doesn't force himself upon us. We choose to suffer eternally by rejecting his love.

You can not claim that something being a part of someone's nature refutes that it is in accordance with their desires. That is just as silly as me saying that I have no desire to sleep with women, it is just my nature.


Well when you say someone "desires" something, it sounds like they could or could not. So it's a bit confusing to apply that to God. If it helps you understand it, then sure, God desires things for us... but it's not in the same way we desire things.

Q3: If it is in God's nature to send us to hell (whatever you think it is) then why do you worship him?

We send ourselves to hell. God is good, and loves everyone. But some people reject his love, and choose hell.

That is the single worst theistic argument out there. Do you not realize that it is a logical contradiction to choose to go to a place you do not believe exists?


Do you realize that's a loaded question? :P

And even if we do somehow choose to go to hell, God still created it along with the circumstances which require us to go there so he still has ultimate responsibility. If I hold a gun to your head and tell you to give me $100 or I'll shoot and you refuse, that does not mean you committed suicide.


No, that's a misunderstanding of what I'm saying. I'm saying that people choose to reject God's love. So they turn in on themselves. That's hell.

You disputed that hell was a place, calling it a "state" instead. You never disputed the part of eternal torture. I took that as an admission of the latter.

Do you dispute that hell is eternally torturous?

It's a state that people put themselves in. Yes, it's eternally torturous, but that's because the person has put their entire will into rejecting God's love. Right now our will is clouded, but when we die, we can make a perfect act of the will, from which there is no return. SO if you reject God's love, then God continues to love you... which is part of the torture. The other part of the torture is knowing that only you are to blame.

I do not reject Gods love, I reject the source of the claim that he and his love exist.


Well then you probably won't go to hell if you truly don't reject his love. But it should be noted that I think your acceptance of rejection of God's love shows in your actions.

It's like the person who sits in the corner and refuses to take part in the party... and you can imagine how being around chirpy happy people makes them upset.

That person can join the party at any time. Are you telling me that I will only be in hell as long as I feel like it, and that when I get tired of everyone else having the time of their... eternity... that I can just leave hell and join them?

No. Because I think that when you die, your will is perfect. You can make a perfect act of the will. With your entire being, you choose to reject God's love. There's no part of you that's still like "ehh, I'm not sure" so that you could change your mind.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 11:34:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:20:01 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 3/19/2014 10:19:29 AM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:44:30 AM, Dragonfang wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
As an atheist it drives me crazy when theists try to portray an atheist as someone who necessarily believes God does not exist. The reason why Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in a God, as opposed to a belief that God does not exist is in part because proving that something does not exist requires it to be defined, and everyone seems to have a different definition.

So are you saying that you are a closet agnostic who calls self "atheist"?

Would you care to make sense out of your question? Do you know what an atheist is?

Yeah, and you are redefining the term in order to get rid of shouldering the burden of proof. The keyword is "Atheist", not "Non-Theist".

We have a term for a non-theist. It's called an atheist. What do you think the "a" means?
https://www.msu.edu...

And no, I have no issue with taking on the burden of proof. In fact that is specifically why I created this thread, to place the burden on me. As I stated in the OP, I can't prove your God does not exist if you don't define him. If you are going to define him in such a way that makes him impossible to prove false then I don't claim to know that he does not exist.
Romanii
Posts: 4,863
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 12:01:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 10:57:42 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/18/2014 10:13:36 AM, Romanii wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:

Yes to all except...

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)
5. All knowing
6. All powerful
15. Desires worship

And the verdict is... Sorry, Your God does not exist.

Reason:

1. Intelligent
8. Timeless

Intelligence: the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.

While this is certainly a standard definition, I will focus more on the application of knowledge process.

To be intelligent is to have the ability to make decisions.

To make decisions requires one to begin in a state of being undecided, and transition to a state of being decided.

Changing from one state to another is necessarily a temporal occurrence.

A being that exists outside of time can not transition in a timeless existence.

Therefore, a being can not simultaneously be timeless and intelligent.

I should've known that this would some stupid argument from semantics.

Intelligence simply means the ability to think.
Timelessness simply means eternal.

No contradiction there.
Try again.
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 12:04:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:24:17 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:16:50 AM, Double_R wrote:
If he wills in accord with his nature, and his nature is to allow us to suffer eternally, then God desires us to suffer eternally.

Not really. That doesn't really follow.

Then please clarify. As I stated before, I have inclinations to have sex with women. These inclinations are:

A) Part of my nature
B) My personal desires
C) All of the above
D) None of the above

Please select one answer and explain.

You can not claim that something being a part of someone's nature refutes that it is in accordance with their desires. That is just as silly as me saying that I have no desire to sleep with women, it is just my nature.

Well when you say someone "desires" something, it sounds like they could or could not.

Yea, he's God. That's the idea of what it means to be all powerful.

So it's a bit confusing to apply that to God. If it helps you understand it, then sure, God desires things for us... but it's not in the same way we desire things.

So in what way exactly does God desire things?

That is the single worst theistic argument out there. Do you not realize that it is a logical contradiction to choose to go to a place you do not believe exists?

Do you realize that's a loaded question? :P

No, I really really don't. Please enlighten me.

And even if we do somehow choose to go to hell, God still created it along with the circumstances which require us to go there so he still has ultimate responsibility. If I hold a gun to your head and tell you to give me $100 or I'll shoot and you refuse, that does not mean you committed suicide.

No, that's a misunderstanding of what I'm saying. I'm saying that people choose to reject God's love. So they turn in on themselves. That's hell.

Nevermind that a person has to believe he and his love is real in order to reject it for a second... A person can choose all they want to reject someone's love. They do not choose what happens to them as a result. God chooses the punishment and is therefore ultimately responsible for the punishment. To deny that is to deny that I am responsible for your death, even though I am the one who decided to hold the gun to your head and pull the trigger.

I do not reject Gods love, I reject the source of the claim that he and his love exist.
Well then you probably won't go to hell if you truly don't reject his love. But it should be noted that I think your acceptance of rejection of God's love shows in your actions.

Right, I accept a rejection of a love I don't believe exists. Because that makes sense.

That person can join the party at any time. Are you telling me that I will only be in hell as long as I feel like it, and that when I get tired of everyone else having the time of their... eternity... that I can just leave hell and join them?

No. Because I think that when you die, your will is perfect. You can make a perfect act of the will. With your entire being, you choose to reject God's love. There's no part of you that's still like "ehh, I'm not sure" so that you could change your mind.

Are you actually going to explain how a person can choose to reject something they do not believe exists?
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 12:15:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 12:01:27 PM, Romanii wrote:
I should've known that this would some stupid argument from semantics.

Intelligence simply means the ability to think.
Timelessness simply means eternal.

No contradiction there.
Try again.

So is God subject to time? Does he have a future and a past?
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 12:35:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
1. Intelligent

Omniscient actually

2. Perfect

Yes

3. Creator of the universe

Yes

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)

Yes, if Hell is defined as the lack of God's presence, and not as a place of torture.

5. All knowing

Yes

6. All powerful

Yes

7. All loving

Yes

8. Timeless

Probably, but I couldn't give a definitive yes or no.

9. Unchanging

Yes

10. Just

Yes

11. Present everywhere

Except Hell.

12. Independent (self-existent)

Yes

13. Merciful

Yes

14. Grantor of free will

Yes

Come at me bro.
Nolite Timere
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/19/2014 1:53:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 12:35:01 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
Come at me bro.

Now that's the spirit! lol

I have pointed out a few of the same contradictions to others. Feel free to respond to them as well. But for you, I'll go with these...

5. All knowing

Yes

6. All powerful

Yes

3. Creator of the universe

Yes

14. Grantor of free will

Yes

If God created the universe and is all powerful, then he was not constrained to any particular option regarding what universe he would create. Therefore he had different options, including a universe in which you never heard of DDO. If God is all knowing, then he already knew how all of the different options would play out, yet he chose this version.

For God to choose a universe in which you would be sitting here right now reading this comment on DDO means that you do not have free will, therefore he can not be all of the above.
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/20/2014 12:51:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 1:53:59 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/19/2014 12:35:01 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
Come at me bro.

Now that's the spirit! lol

I have pointed out a few of the same contradictions to others. Feel free to respond to them as well. But for you, I'll go with these...

5. All knowing

Yes

6. All powerful

Yes

3. Creator of the universe

Yes

14. Grantor of free will

Yes

If God created the universe and is all powerful, then he was not constrained to any particular option regarding what universe he would create.

It should be pointed out that only this world is truly the perfect world. More perfect than any possible world that God could have created.

Therefore he had different options, including a universe in which you never heard of DDO.

He never would have created such a world because it is not as good as the world he actually created.

If God is all knowing, then he already knew how all of the different options would play out, yet he chose this version.

Because its the best.

For God to choose a universe in which you would be sitting here right now reading this comment on DDO means that you do not have free will

Where do you come to this conclusion?

Knowing what someone will do does not tread upon the personal free will of that person. Regardless of whether someone knows they will do it or not, they will still maintain the choice of whether or not they will do said action.

Imagine you have a red and a blue ball in front of you. Regardless of the fact that God knows what you will choose, you, and only you will be the one choosing whichever ball.
Nolite Timere
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/20/2014 1:17:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 12:04:18 PM, Double_R wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:24:17 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:16:50 AM, Double_R wrote:
If he wills in accord with his nature, and his nature is to allow us to suffer eternally, then God desires us to suffer eternally.

Not really. That doesn't really follow.

Then please clarify. As I stated before, I have inclinations to have sex with women. These inclinations are:

A) Part of my nature
B) My personal desires
C) All of the above
D) None of the above

Please select one answer and explain.


A.

You can not claim that something being a part of someone's nature refutes that it is in accordance with their desires. That is just as silly as me saying that I have no desire to sleep with women, it is just my nature.

Well when you say someone "desires" something, it sounds like they could or could not.

Yea, he's God. That's the idea of what it means to be all powerful.


I don't see what you mean here...

So it's a bit confusing to apply that to God. If it helps you understand it, then sure, God desires things for us... but it's not in the same way we desire things.

So in what way exactly does God desire things?


In a perfect sense of desiring something. As in, he sees it perfectly, and perfectly desires what is best for every person. We don't see things perfectly, and don't always desire in perfect accord with how things ought to be, or what is good for things.

That is the single worst theistic argument out there. Do you not realize that it is a logical contradiction to choose to go to a place you do not believe exists?

Do you realize that's a loaded question? :P

No, I really really don't. Please enlighten me.


Well I've already explained I don't view hell as a "place" exactly.

And even if we do somehow choose to go to hell, God still created it along with the circumstances which require us to go there so he still has ultimate responsibility. If I hold a gun to your head and tell you to give me $100 or I'll shoot and you refuse, that does not mean you committed suicide.

No, that's a misunderstanding of what I'm saying. I'm saying that people choose to reject God's love. So they turn in on themselves. That's hell.

Nevermind that a person has to believe he and his love is real in order to reject it for a second... A person can choose all they want to reject someone's love. They do not choose what happens to them as a result. God chooses the punishment and is therefore ultimately responsible for the punishment. To deny that is to deny that I am responsible for your death, even though I am the one who decided to hold the gun to your head and pull the trigger.


No... the person rejects God's love, and this causes extreme misery and self-hatred. God continues to love them, but they reject him.

I do not reject Gods love, I reject the source of the claim that he and his love exist.
Well then you probably won't go to hell if you truly don't reject his love. But it should be noted that I think your acceptance of rejection of God's love shows in your actions.

Right, I accept a rejection of a love I don't believe exists. Because that makes sense.

That person can join the party at any time. Are you telling me that I will only be in hell as long as I feel like it, and that when I get tired of everyone else having the time of their... eternity... that I can just leave hell and join them?

No. Because I think that when you die, your will is perfect. You can make a perfect act of the will. With your entire being, you choose to reject God's love. There's no part of you that's still like "ehh, I'm not sure" so that you could change your mind.

Are you actually going to explain how a person can choose to reject something they do not believe exists?

Well I think that when we die, we'll all be able to see God's love, and depending upon how we have conditioned ourselves, we will either accept or reject it.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
johnlubba
Posts: 2,892
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/20/2014 2:45:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/18/2014 8:01:21 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
As an atheist it drives me crazy when theists try to portray an atheist as someone who necessarily believes God does not exist. The reason why Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in a God, as opposed to a belief that God does not exist is in part because proving that something does not exist requires it to be defined, and everyone seems to have a different definition. So let's play a game. If you're a theist please answer the following questions with a simple yes or no, and myself along with other atheists will tell you if your God is possible, or why he does not exist:

1. Intelligent

Yes.

2. Perfect

Yes, in the sense that that which is pure actuality cannot be imperfect, since imperfectness implies potency.

3. Creator of the universe

Yes, since the world is a mental construct of God.

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)

Hell is a state, not a place. It is the state that people put themselves into.

5. All knowing

Yes.

6. All powerful

Yes.

7. All loving

Yes, God wills what is best for us. If he did not, he would not be perfect.

8. Timeless

Yes, that which is pure actuality, divinely simple, and non-physical does not inhabit time.

9. Unchanging

Yes.

10. Just

Yes.

11. Present everywhere

Yes, God is present everywhere through his effects. In other words, God is present everywhere in the way that the foundations of a house are present.

12. Independent (self-existent)

Yes, the unmoved mover, or the uncaused cause. Pure subsistent being does not need an external cause.

13. Merciful

Yes.

14. Grantor of free will

God creates us and moves us according to our nature.

15. Desires worship

Yes, but not because he needs it. Rather, because as rational beings, we are directed towards the truth. God, being the highest truth, is the fulfillment of our very nature as rational beings. So God desires worship, since it is what is good for us.

Now let me hear my verdict ;)

Word
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/20/2014 2:48:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 2:45:53 PM, johnlubba wrote:
At 3/18/2014 8:01:21 PM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 3/17/2014 10:49:43 PM, Double_R wrote:
As an atheist it drives me crazy when theists try to portray an atheist as someone who necessarily believes God does not exist. The reason why Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in a God, as opposed to a belief that God does not exist is in part because proving that something does not exist requires it to be defined, and everyone seems to have a different definition. So let's play a game. If you're a theist please answer the following questions with a simple yes or no, and myself along with other atheists will tell you if your God is possible, or why he does not exist:

1. Intelligent

Yes.

2. Perfect

Yes, in the sense that that which is pure actuality cannot be imperfect, since imperfectness implies potency.

3. Creator of the universe

Yes, since the world is a mental construct of God.

4. Creator of hell (place of eternal torture)

Hell is a state, not a place. It is the state that people put themselves into.

5. All knowing

Yes.

6. All powerful

Yes.

7. All loving

Yes, God wills what is best for us. If he did not, he would not be perfect.

8. Timeless

Yes, that which is pure actuality, divinely simple, and non-physical does not inhabit time.

9. Unchanging

Yes.

10. Just

Yes.

11. Present everywhere

Yes, God is present everywhere through his effects. In other words, God is present everywhere in the way that the foundations of a house are present.

12. Independent (self-existent)

Yes, the unmoved mover, or the uncaused cause. Pure subsistent being does not need an external cause.

13. Merciful

Yes.

14. Grantor of free will

God creates us and moves us according to our nature.

15. Desires worship

Yes, but not because he needs it. Rather, because as rational beings, we are directed towards the truth. God, being the highest truth, is the fulfillment of our very nature as rational beings. So God desires worship, since it is what is good for us.

Now let me hear my verdict ;)

Word

lol, what?
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
Double_R
Posts: 4,886
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/20/2014 11:06:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:51:09 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 3/19/2014 1:53:59 PM, Double_R wrote:
If God created the universe and is all powerful, then he was not constrained to any particular option regarding what universe he would create.

It should be pointed out that only this world is truly the perfect world. More perfect than any possible world that God could have created.

9 million children die every year before reaching the age of 5. That's your idea of a perfect world?


Therefore he had different options, including a universe in which you never heard of DDO.

He never would have created such a world because it is not as good as the world he actually created.

Could he have created a world where just 8 million children under 5 die each year? Or is 9 million better?

If God is all knowing, then he already knew how all of the different options would play out, yet he chose this version.

Because its the best.

rrrrrrright.

For God to choose a universe in which you would be sitting here right now reading this comment on DDO means that you do not have free will

Where do you come to this conclusion?

Knowing what someone will do does not tread upon the personal free will of that person. Regardless of whether someone knows they will do it or not, they will still maintain the choice of whether or not they will do said action.

Knowing what someone will do does not tread on their free will. Deciding what they will do does, and according to the characteristics you believe about God, he did that for all of us. God could have chosen a universe in which you never signed up to DDO, he instead chose the universe where you did. Every single choice you have made in your life could have went different if God chose that universe, he didn't. He chose this path for you, that is not free will.

Imagine you have a red and a blue ball in front of you. Regardless of the fact that God knows what you will choose, you, and only you will be the one choosing whichever ball.

I choose blue.

God however could have chosen the universe where I chose red.

He didn't. Therefore he made that choice before I did.