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*In Bible, which is worse--gay or rich?

kbub
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3/19/2014 9:52:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong at any point, but with *research only* (preferably of high quality).

I tell you the truth! There are in fact very few verses in the bible dealing with same sex relations ("homosexuality" was not a word in the Hebrew or Greek (Paul's word as far as we can tell is unique (but correct me if I'm mistaken), so the identity of "homosexual" did not exist)).

Within these few verses, there are nothing that seems very serious at all. The most striking verse is in Leviticus calling same-sex relations an "abomination," but the same can be said for touching or eating a fish or crab or mollusk (Lev. 11:9"12)!

Paul gives some verses in the New Testament that point out that the laws of the Old Testament are still helpful, though they do not cut off one's ability to go to heaven. (These verses were part of a larger anti-circumcision campaign that is a theme of Paul's works.)

In all four gospels that are taken as canon, Jesus never says anything against homosexuality. Additionally, there is no verse in the Bible that says that homosexual persons will burn in Hell. However, the same can't be said for rich persons!

*"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame." But Abraham said, "Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish." (bold added, Luke 16:22-25)

(Note that in the above story, the rich man doesn't do anything except spend his legally-earned money.)

Jesus in Luke curses literally rich people in clear language over and over again. He even says that they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven:

"For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." (Luke 18:25, bold added)

"Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys." (Luke 22:33, bold added)

"But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation." (Luke 6:24, bold added)

In Matthew:

"Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go and sell everything you have. Give the money to those who are poor. You will have treasure in heaven. Then come and follow me." " (Matt 19:21)

"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money." (Matt 6:24)

"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." (Matt 6:19-21)

Not satisfied? James 5:5:
"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you."

James 1:10-11:
"And the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass he will pass away. For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits."

Revalation 3:17:
"For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked."

Hebrews 13:5:
"Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you.""

1 Timothy 6:9:
"But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction."

For those who want to take the Bible literally, please notice that there is no mention of "spiritual wealth" in these verses. These are very explicit in attacking actual wealth. Do not think that the secret is humility while keeping wealth--Jesus says, not be prepared to give your wealth away, but actually do it. Additionally, he blesses the poor as he curses the rich. Homosexuality is not as much of a sin (if it is a sin at all) according to the Bible as being rich.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/19/2014 11:18:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 9:52:34 PM, kbub wrote:
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong at any point, but with *research only* (preferably of high quality).

I tell you the truth! There are in fact very few verses in the bible dealing with same sex relations ("homosexuality" was not a word in the Hebrew or Greek (Paul's word as far as we can tell is unique (but correct me if I'm mistaken), so the identity of "homosexual" did not exist)).

Within these few verses, there are nothing that seems very serious at all. The most striking verse is in Leviticus calling same-sex relations an "abomination," but the same can be said for touching or eating a fish or crab or mollusk (Lev. 11:9"12)!

Paul gives some verses in the New Testament that point out that the laws of the Old Testament are still helpful, though they do not cut off one's ability to go to heaven. (These verses were part of a larger anti-circumcision campaign that is a theme of Paul's works.)

In all four gospels that are taken as canon, Jesus never says anything against homosexuality. Additionally, there is no verse in the Bible that says that homosexual persons will burn in Hell. However, the same can't be said for rich persons!

*"The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame." But Abraham said, "Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish." (bold added, Luke 16:22-25)

(Note that in the above story, the rich man doesn't do anything except spend his legally-earned money.)

Jesus in Luke curses literally rich people in clear language over and over again. He even says that they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven:

"For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." (Luke 18:25, bold added)

"Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys." (Luke 22:33, bold added)

"But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation." (Luke 6:24, bold added)

In Matthew:

"Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go and sell everything you have. Give the money to those who are poor. You will have treasure in heaven. Then come and follow me." " (Matt 19:21)

"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money." (Matt 6:24)

"Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." (Matt 6:19-21)

Not satisfied? James 5:5:
"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you."

James 1:10-11:
"And the rich in his humiliation, because like a flower of the grass he will pass away. For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits."

Revalation 3:17:
"For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked."

Hebrews 13:5:
"Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you.""


1 Timothy 6:9:
"But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction."


For those who want to take the Bible literally, please notice that there is no mention of "spiritual wealth" in these verses. These are very explicit in attacking actual wealth. Do not think that the secret is humility while keeping wealth--Jesus says, not be prepared to give your wealth away, but actually do it. Additionally, he blesses the poor as he curses the rich. Homosexuality is not as much of a sin (if it is a sin at all) according to the Bible as being rich.

Being rich isn't a sin. It just opens you up to having money as a master instead of god. Two men having sex with each other is a sin.

So homosexuality is worse.
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
kbub
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3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/20/2014 12:04:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

I like that. That seems like a solid attitude.
ConservativeLibertarian
Posts: 54
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3/20/2014 12:04:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

But if we're all equally sinful, then we're no better than terrorists who fly planes into buildings -- even though we abhor such horrible, unconscionable violence and never have committed anything in our lives even analogous to it. Surely you don't mean that ALL sin is equal. If that's the case, homosexuality -- by your estimation -- is equivalent to murder, rape, embezzlement, etc.
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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3/20/2014 12:06:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:04:02 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

I like that. That seems like a solid attitude.

Well, although that's a nice point, its not about the attitude, its bout the truth. Ya know :)
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/20/2014 12:08:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:06:50 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:04:02 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

I like that. That seems like a solid attitude.

Well, although that's a nice point, its not about the attitude, its bout the truth. Ya know :)

I almost hate to bring this up, but what about the verse that had the rich man in Hades and Abraham in heaven? Abraham didn't have Jesus in his life. What made the diff do you think?
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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3/20/2014 12:10:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:04:57 AM, ConservativeLibertarian wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

But if we're all equally sinful, then we're no better than terrorists who fly planes into buildings -- even though we abhor such horrible, unconscionable violence and never have committed anything in our lives even analogous to it. Surely you don't mean that ALL sin is equal. If that's the case, homosexuality -- by your estimation -- is equivalent to murder, rape, embezzlement, etc.

Have you ever hated anyone? Or had lustful thoughts about a person (sexual thoughts about someone)? If so, that makes you a murderer at heart and an adulterer at heart in which your thoughts are far just as worse as any physical action is done. So back to your main questions, yes, I literally mean, ALL sin is equal.
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/20/2014 12:13:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:10:39 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:04:57 AM, ConservativeLibertarian wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

But if we're all equally sinful, then we're no better than terrorists who fly planes into buildings -- even though we abhor such horrible, unconscionable violence and never have committed anything in our lives even analogous to it. Surely you don't mean that ALL sin is equal. If that's the case, homosexuality -- by your estimation -- is equivalent to murder, rape, embezzlement, etc.

Have you ever hated anyone? Or had lustful thoughts about a person (sexual thoughts about someone)? If so, that makes you a murderer at heart and an adulterer at heart in which your thoughts are far just as worse as any physical action is done. So back to your main questions, yes, I literally mean, ALL sin is equal.

Suppose I wanted to have sex. That would be like lust, which would be like adultery....and when do we get to murder, and then terrorism, and then genocide? I think I know what you mean though--we all need God's grace, so we should stop judging (even terrorists) and start concentrating on how to make the world a better place. Is that right?
ConservativeLibertarian
Posts: 54
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3/20/2014 12:14:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:10:39 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:04:57 AM, ConservativeLibertarian wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

But if we're all equally sinful, then we're no better than terrorists who fly planes into buildings -- even though we abhor such horrible, unconscionable violence and never have committed anything in our lives even analogous to it. Surely you don't mean that ALL sin is equal. If that's the case, homosexuality -- by your estimation -- is equivalent to murder, rape, embezzlement, etc.

Have you ever hated anyone? Or had lustful thoughts about a person (sexual thoughts about someone)? If so, that makes you a murderer at heart and an adulterer at heart in which your thoughts are far just as worse as any physical action is done. So back to your main questions, yes, I literally mean, ALL sin is equal.

I don't think I've ever genuinely hated someone. Sure, I'm guilty of lust....like the other....99.999% of humans. Are you guilty of either, if you don't mind my asking?

I just don't think it's fair to say that, literally, we're all no better than murderers and rapists because we were born with the inherent capacity to do wrong. If that's the case, why do we even prosecute murder? It's no different than lust, apparently, even though lust doesn't actually hurt anyone and is a perfectly normal human emotion. Acting on lust is a different story.
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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3/20/2014 12:19:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:08:51 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:06:50 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:04:02 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

I like that. That seems like a solid attitude.

Well, although that's a nice point, its not about the attitude, its bout the truth. Ya know :)

I almost hate to bring this up, but what about the verse that had the rich man in Hades and Abraham in heaven? Abraham didn't have Jesus in his life. What made the diff do you think?

Never hate to bring anything up my friend :)
Thank you for asking.

To answer your question, God chose Abraham. In which, even in the Gospel of John, Jesus even said to the people in the temple, that Abraham saw Christ's coming and was glad. Now why would Jesus even bother to bring this up unless Abraham knew who Jesus was and in fact, have a relationship with Him? If Abraham didn't have Jesus in His life then, why did Jesus bother to mention about him when speaking to the people? So technically there was no difference. And to go even further in expound, God, Jesus and the Spirit are One. It says in the Gospel of John as well that in the "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) which in context the Word means in the Greek= Logos (Jesus Christ, God incarnate) https://www.google.com...
Hope this answers your question :)
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
kbub
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3/20/2014 12:20:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Let's get back on topic! The bible barely mentions homosexuality, but almost explicitly condemns rich people to Hell. And yet, many have used the bible as a tool to fight queer rights and support capitalism. What's the deal??
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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3/20/2014 12:23:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:13:45 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:10:39 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:04:57 AM, ConservativeLibertarian wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

But if we're all equally sinful, then we're no better than terrorists who fly planes into buildings -- even though we abhor such horrible, unconscionable violence and never have committed anything in our lives even analogous to it. Surely you don't mean that ALL sin is equal. If that's the case, homosexuality -- by your estimation -- is equivalent to murder, rape, embezzlement, etc.

Have you ever hated anyone? Or had lustful thoughts about a person (sexual thoughts about someone)? If so, that makes you a murderer at heart and an adulterer at heart in which your thoughts are far just as worse as any physical action is done. So back to your main questions, yes, I literally mean, ALL sin is equal.

Suppose I wanted to have sex. That would be like lust, which would be like adultery....and when do we get to murder, and then terrorism, and then genocide? I think I know what you mean though--we all need God's grace, so we should stop judging (even terrorists) and start concentrating on how to make the world a better place. Is that right?

The world needs God. Without God, sin will continue and it will only get worse than it already has gotten to where it is today. That is the point of Believers going and sharing the Truth of the Gospel, if we negate to do this, then we are willingly allowing (permitting) people to walk straight to hell... :'(
So hope this answers your question as well :)
Thanks for asking! Let me know if you have any other questions. I'm gonna go to sleep soon though kinda sleepy .. Its almost 12:30am already...
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/20/2014 12:23:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:19:31 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:08:51 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:06:50 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:04:02 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

I like that. That seems like a solid attitude.

Well, although that's a nice point, its not about the attitude, its bout the truth. Ya know :)

I almost hate to bring this up, but what about the verse that had the rich man in Hades and Abraham in heaven? Abraham didn't have Jesus in his life. What made the diff do you think?

Never hate to bring anything up my friend :)
Thank you for asking.

To answer your question, God chose Abraham. In which, even in the Gospel of John, Jesus even said to the people in the temple, that Abraham saw Christ's coming and was glad. Now why would Jesus even bother to bring this up unless Abraham knew who Jesus was and in fact, have a relationship with Him? If Abraham didn't have Jesus in His life then, why did Jesus bother to mention about him when speaking to the people? So technically there was no difference. And to go even further in expound, God, Jesus and the Spirit are One. It says in the Gospel of John as well that in the "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) which in context the Word means in the Greek= Logos (Jesus Christ, God incarnate) https://www.google.com...
Hope this answers your question :)

I'm not really sure it does...Abraham never met nor heard of Jesus, David never met nor heard of Jesus, Noah never met nor heard of Jesus, Elijah never met nor heard of Jesus, Ruth never met nor heard of Jesus, Elisha never met nor heard of Jesus, Aaron never met nor heard of Jesus, Moses never met nor heard of Jesus....
ConservativeLibertarian
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3/20/2014 12:25:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:20:26 AM, kbub wrote:
Let's get back on topic! The bible barely mentions homosexuality, but almost explicitly condemns rich people to Hell. And yet, many have used the bible as a tool to fight queer rights and support capitalism. What's the deal??

The bible also bans haircuts, the consumption of shellfish, and working on the Sabbath; says that women need to be "subservient to their husbands"; has two accounts of creation, both of which are incompatible with one another; wrongly suggests a 6000-year-old Earth; and justified war and slavery in the past, and the oppression of women and gay people today.

Point being? Right-wing Christians throw aside all of Jesus's super-lib teachings because they contradict their Big-Oil agenda and cherry-pick the rest of the Bible.

The whole bloody thing is a mess of malarkey.
GodChoosesLife
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3/20/2014 12:28:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:14:17 AM, ConservativeLibertarian wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:10:39 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:04:57 AM, ConservativeLibertarian wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

But if we're all equally sinful, then we're no better than terrorists who fly planes into buildings -- even though we abhor such horrible, unconscionable violence and never have committed anything in our lives even analogous to it. Surely you don't mean that ALL sin is equal. If that's the case, homosexuality -- by your estimation -- is equivalent to murder, rape, embezzlement, etc.

Have you ever hated anyone? Or had lustful thoughts about a person (sexual thoughts about someone)? If so, that makes you a murderer at heart and an adulterer at heart in which your thoughts are far just as worse as any physical action is done. So back to your main questions, yes, I literally mean, ALL sin is equal.

I don't think I've ever genuinely hated someone. Sure, I'm guilty of lust....like the other....99.999% of humans. Are you guilty of either, if you don't mind my asking?

I just don't think it's fair to say that, literally, we're all no better than murderers and rapists because we were born with the inherent capacity to do wrong. If that's the case, why do we even prosecute murder? It's no different than lust, apparently, even though lust doesn't actually hurt anyone and is a perfectly normal human emotion. Acting on lust is a different story.

I am guilty of those things too, I will never dent my sin. I know my sin. That is why it puts me to humiliation when speaking to others of sin because I am no different but understand we are in need of God's grace and to be saved.

That's the problem with society today, everyone thinks the smallest things don't matter. But its those smallest things that result to the bigger things that happens. If you have lustful thoughts whose to say you won't go rap someone as a result? If you hate someone whose to say you won't go and kill them anyways? It starts with the intention of the heart. That's where it all starts. Sure it seems bad if someone actually does the crime, but what if we put a chip in a persons brain and record everything that's thought and then after the day has ended put it on tv where everyone can see... That my friend would show the sin of a person's heart and how evil we are..
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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3/20/2014 12:34:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:20:26 AM, kbub wrote:
Let's get back on topic! The bible barely mentions homosexuality, but almost explicitly condemns rich people to Hell. And yet, many have used the bible as a tool to fight queer rights and support capitalism. What's the deal??

Sodom and Gomorrah :/
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
ConservativeLibertarian
Posts: 54
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3/20/2014 12:35:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:28:11 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:14:17 AM, ConservativeLibertarian wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:10:39 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:04:57 AM, ConservativeLibertarian wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

But if we're all equally sinful, then we're no better than terrorists who fly planes into buildings -- even though we abhor such horrible, unconscionable violence and never have committed anything in our lives even analogous to it. Surely you don't mean that ALL sin is equal. If that's the case, homosexuality -- by your estimation -- is equivalent to murder, rape, embezzlement, etc.

Have you ever hated anyone? Or had lustful thoughts about a person (sexual thoughts about someone)? If so, that makes you a murderer at heart and an adulterer at heart in which your thoughts are far just as worse as any physical action is done. So back to your main questions, yes, I literally mean, ALL sin is equal.

I don't think I've ever genuinely hated someone. Sure, I'm guilty of lust....like the other....99.999% of humans. Are you guilty of either, if you don't mind my asking?

I just don't think it's fair to say that, literally, we're all no better than murderers and rapists because we were born with the inherent capacity to do wrong. If that's the case, why do we even prosecute murder? It's no different than lust, apparently, even though lust doesn't actually hurt anyone and is a perfectly normal human emotion. Acting on lust is a different story.

I am guilty of those things too, I will never dent my sin. I know my sin. That is why it puts me to humiliation when speaking to others of sin because I am no different but understand we are in need of God's grace and to be saved.

That's the problem with society today, everyone thinks the smallest things don't matter. But its those smallest things that result to the bigger things that happens. If you have lustful thoughts whose to say you won't go rap someone as a result? If you hate someone whose to say you won't go and kill them anyways? It starts with the intention of the heart. That's where it all starts. Sure it seems bad if someone actually does the crime, but what if we put a chip in a persons brain and record everything that's thought and then after the day has ended put it on tv where everyone can see... That my friend would show the sin of a person's heart and how evil we are..

I think this is largely a slipper slope argument, which is almost always a logical fallacy. But I do think we need to differentiate between the two.

You won't catch me defending "hate." Hate is wrong, and can lead to a flurry of things. Indeed, I think it's almost entirely human -- though what constitutes hate is a different question -- and plenty of people "hate" without harming other people. But, no, I won't defend hate. I think hate is a pretty bad thing, though acting on hate makes it much worse, in my estimation.

As for lust.....there's a big, big, big difference between having lustful feelings and raping someone. Almost everyone have had lustful feelings at some point. Yet...most people don't rape other people. Why? Because they have a capacity as humans to say, "That's wrong." Many rapists are mentally ill, and lack that very capacity.

So, to answer your question, there is a HUGE difference.
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
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3/20/2014 12:36:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:23:23 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:19:31 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:08:51 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:06:50 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:04:02 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

I like that. That seems like a solid attitude.

Well, although that's a nice point, its not about the attitude, its bout the truth. Ya know :)

I almost hate to bring this up, but what about the verse that had the rich man in Hades and Abraham in heaven? Abraham didn't have Jesus in his life. What made the diff do you think?

Never hate to bring anything up my friend :)
Thank you for asking.

To answer your question, God chose Abraham. In which, even in the Gospel of John, Jesus even said to the people in the temple, that Abraham saw Christ's coming and was glad. Now why would Jesus even bother to bring this up unless Abraham knew who Jesus was and in fact, have a relationship with Him? If Abraham didn't have Jesus in His life then, why did Jesus bother to mention about him when speaking to the people? So technically there was no difference. And to go even further in expound, God, Jesus and the Spirit are One. It says in the Gospel of John as well that in the "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) which in context the Word means in the Greek= Logos (Jesus Christ, God incarnate) https://www.google.com...
Hope this answers your question :)

I'm not really sure it does...Abraham never met nor heard of Jesus, David never met nor heard of Jesus, Noah never met nor heard of Jesus, Elijah never met nor heard of Jesus, Ruth never met nor heard of Jesus, Elisha never met nor heard of Jesus, Aaron never met nor heard of Jesus, Moses never met nor heard of Jesus....
May I PM you for further discussion on this if you wish? So that your thread topic isn't changed as I noticed above you want to remain on topic which I'll respectfully remove any further comments of anything else. :)
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/20/2014 12:37:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:34:13 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:20:26 AM, kbub wrote:
Let's get back on topic! The bible barely mentions homosexuality, but almost explicitly condemns rich people to Hell. And yet, many have used the bible as a tool to fight queer rights and support capitalism. What's the deal??

Sodom and Gomorrah :/

Sodom and Gomorrah was an example of rape. They were not burnt because they were gay.
kbub
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3/20/2014 12:37:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:36:34 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:23:23 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:19:31 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:08:51 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:06:50 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:04:02 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:00:41 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:57:04 PM, kbub wrote:
At 3/19/2014 11:54:13 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
Neither is worse than the other. All sin is evil.

Neat! I thought I'd have to argue with people about being rich being a sin.

Well, everyone is always quick to say well this is sin and that is not and this and that, but in all reality, sin is equal and that's why its easy to notice my sin because I know it is all sinful and its easy to talk to people because I know they're not any different than myself. We're all equally sinful. NO one is greater than another. It a humiliating situation for the most part IMO.

I like that. That seems like a solid attitude.

Well, although that's a nice point, its not about the attitude, its bout the truth. Ya know :)

I almost hate to bring this up, but what about the verse that had the rich man in Hades and Abraham in heaven? Abraham didn't have Jesus in his life. What made the diff do you think?

Never hate to bring anything up my friend :)
Thank you for asking.

To answer your question, God chose Abraham. In which, even in the Gospel of John, Jesus even said to the people in the temple, that Abraham saw Christ's coming and was glad. Now why would Jesus even bother to bring this up unless Abraham knew who Jesus was and in fact, have a relationship with Him? If Abraham didn't have Jesus in His life then, why did Jesus bother to mention about him when speaking to the people? So technically there was no difference. And to go even further in expound, God, Jesus and the Spirit are One. It says in the Gospel of John as well that in the "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) which in context the Word means in the Greek= Logos (Jesus Christ, God incarnate) https://www.google.com...
Hope this answers your question :)

I'm not really sure it does...Abraham never met nor heard of Jesus, David never met nor heard of Jesus, Noah never met nor heard of Jesus, Elijah never met nor heard of Jesus, Ruth never met nor heard of Jesus, Elisha never met nor heard of Jesus, Aaron never met nor heard of Jesus, Moses never met nor heard of Jesus....
May I PM you for further discussion on this if you wish? So that your thread topic isn't changed as I noticed above you want to remain on topic which I'll respectfully remove any further comments of anything else. :)

Sounds great! Sorry and thanks!
GodChoosesLife
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3/20/2014 12:41:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:37:04 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:34:13 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:20:26 AM, kbub wrote:
Let's get back on topic! The bible barely mentions homosexuality, but almost explicitly condemns rich people to Hell. And yet, many have used the bible as a tool to fight queer rights and support capitalism. What's the deal??

Sodom and Gomorrah :/

Sodom and Gomorrah was an example of rape. They were not burnt because they were gay.

Have you fully read about it and studied it though? How did you draw the conclusion of rape? Mind you it's a perfect example of my first post to your thread. All sin.
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
kbub
Posts: 1,377
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3/20/2014 12:49:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:41:25 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:37:04 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:34:13 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:20:26 AM, kbub wrote:
Let's get back on topic! The bible barely mentions homosexuality, but almost explicitly condemns rich people to Hell. And yet, many have used the bible as a tool to fight queer rights and support capitalism. What's the deal??

Sodom and Gomorrah :/

Sodom and Gomorrah was an example of rape. They were not burnt because they were gay.

Have you fully read about it and studied it though? How did you draw the conclusion of rape? Mind you it's a perfect example of my first post to your thread. All sin.

Only a little. I've read it through a few times and have heard different interpretations from people who are far more educated than I. Here's something to look at. It's not an expert opinion (sorry, I'll try to get better sources in the future) but it's quite reasonable and provides a clear read. I think you'll be interested:
http://hartfordfavs.com...
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/20/2014 1:15:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:20:26 AM, kbub wrote:
Let's get back on topic! The bible barely mentions homosexuality, but almost explicitly condemns rich people to Hell. And yet, many have used the bible as a tool to fight queer rights and support capitalism. What's the deal??

I highly disagree with a lot of the interpretations I'm hearing on here. Being rich isn't a sin. Job was blessed with wealth so was Solomon and countless others.

Jesus was just stating you can't serve both God and money. So the pursuit of wealth will likely get you condemned to hell. However, if you happen to get rich while serving God, it is fine.

You also need to read Jesus's parable of the talents where he condemns the man who is most irresponsible with his master's money.

There is 2 different types of millionaires according to Christianity.

Type 1- He has a million dollars. It belongs to him.

Type 2- He is holding on to a million dollars, but just considers himself as holding God's money.

Typically Christians are so anti-homosexual, because of what they perceive as "The Homosexual Agenda"

So even though it's barely mentioned in the bible they imagine a secret plot, by homosexuals to attack Christianity.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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3/20/2014 1:19:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 12:37:04 AM, kbub wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:34:13 AM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:20:26 AM, kbub wrote:
Let's get back on topic! The bible barely mentions homosexuality, but almost explicitly condemns rich people to Hell. And yet, many have used the bible as a tool to fight queer rights and support capitalism. What's the deal??

Sodom and Gomorrah :/

Sodom and Gomorrah was an example of rape. They were not burnt because they were gay.

It was men trying to rape male angels though.
ConservativeLibertarian
Posts: 54
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3/20/2014 1:51:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/20/2014 1:15:55 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 3/20/2014 12:20:26 AM, kbub wrote:
Let's get back on topic! The bible barely mentions homosexuality, but almost explicitly condemns rich people to Hell. And yet, many have used the bible as a tool to fight queer rights and support capitalism. What's the deal??

I highly disagree with a lot of the interpretations I'm hearing on here. Being rich isn't a sin. Job was blessed with wealth so was Solomon and countless others.

Jesus was just stating you can't serve both God and money. So the pursuit of wealth will likely get you condemned to hell. However, if you happen to get rich while serving God, it is fine.

You also need to read Jesus's parable of the talents where he condemns the man who is most irresponsible with his master's money.

There is 2 different types of millionaires according to Christianity.

Type 1- He has a million dollars. It belongs to him.

Type 2- He is holding on to a million dollars, but just considers himself as holding God's money.

Typically Christians are so anti-homosexual, because of what they perceive as "The Homosexual Agenda"

So even though it's barely mentioned in the bible they imagine a secret plot, by homosexuals to attack Christianity.

I disagree with you. Jesus said that it's harder for a rich man to enter heaven than it is for a camel to enter the eye of a needle -- that people need only give up everything to the poor.

So, looking beyond the fact that the GOP today would call this guy a crazy socialist, he was pretty clear that wealth itself -- not solely the worship of it -- is a sin.