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Bad Theology.

GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/26/2010 6:11:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I was given a book called Sophie's World by Jostein Gaarder for my birthday not so long along.

I began to read it and all was good until I read this;

"They had learnt at school that God created the world. Sophie tried to console herself with the thought that this was probably the best solution to the whole problem. But then she started to think again. She could accept that God created space, but what about God himself? Had he created himself out of nothing? Again there was something deep down inside her that protested. Even though God could create all kinds of things, he could hardly create himself before he had a 'self' to create with. So there was only one possibility left: God had always existed. But she had already rejected that possibility! Everything that existed had to have a beginning."

Ok the possibility that all things physical must have a beginning not necessary all things that are spiritual. God must be eternal otherwise God cannot be invisible or invisible, God must be eternal otherwise He can be defeated and can be sensed. God could be seen and would be physical, if you can see God in the physical universe aka space and time then God plays along with it's laws, but God does not. God does not have a beginning or an end. Sophie rejected the idea that all physical things must have a beginning, she relates the universe that must have a beginning in the same wave length as God that created the universe. If God created the universe God cannot be a part of the universe and time is a part of the universe, for God there is no beginning nor is there a end, but God is eternal.

The more I read Sophie's World the more quotations which don't make sense the more I will criticise. This chapter which the quotation is from is called, "The Garden of Eden...at some point something must have come from nothing..." - Rubbish, what about from God?
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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1/27/2010 3:12:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/26/2010 6:11:41 PM, GodSands wrote:
I was given a book called Sophie's World by Jostein Gaarder for my birthday not so long along.

I began to read it and all was good until I read this;

"They had learnt at school that God created the world. Sophie tried to console herself with the thought that this was probably the best solution to the whole problem. But then she started to think again. She could accept that God created space, but what about God himself? Had he created himself out of nothing? Again there was something deep down inside her that protested. Even though God could create all kinds of things, he could hardly create himself before he had a 'self' to create with. So there was only one possibility left: God had always existed. But she had already rejected that possibility! Everything that existed had to have a beginning."

Ok the possibility that all things physical must have a beginning not necessary all things that are spiritual. God must be eternal otherwise God cannot be invisible or invisible, God must be eternal otherwise He can be defeated and can be sensed. God could be seen and would be physical, if you can see God in the physical universe aka space and time then God plays along with it's laws, but God does not. God does not have a beginning or an end. Sophie rejected the idea that all physical things must have a beginning, she relates the universe that must have a beginning in the same wave length as God that created the universe. If God created the universe God cannot be a part of the universe and time is a part of the universe, for God there is no beginning nor is there a end, but God is eternal.

The more I read Sophie's World the more quotations which don't make sense the more I will criticise. This chapter which the quotation is from is called, "The Garden of Eden...at some point something must have come from nothing..." - Rubbish, what about from God?

What do expect from reading a novel by a non-believer? revelation?
Read James 4:4 and STICK to the programme!
The Cross.. the Cross.
Floid
Posts: 751
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1/27/2010 5:21:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ok the possibility that all things physical must have a beginning not necessary all things that are spiritual.

Well sure, we have no observation of spiritual things so you can just make up whatever you want in regardess to them. And while you are at it, you might as well make up things that are consistent with what you awnt to believe.

God must be eternal otherwise God cannot be invisible or invisible

Actually, the only requirement for being "invisible" is to not reflect electromagnetic radiation. Eternal has nothing to do with it.

God could be seen and would be physical, if you can see God in the physical universe aka space and time then God plays along with it's laws, but God does not.

Again, you are just making things up as you see fit. Exactly how do we know that supposed "spiritual" beings don't have to follow that laws of physics? Or maybe there is a "spiritual physics" uknown to us that govern the actions of spiritual beings. You are leaving out a lot of possibilities without justification.

God does not have a beginning or an end.

According to one collection of 2000-4000 year old writings. Other ancient writings claim different things about God.

Sophie rejected the idea that all physical things must have a beginning, she relates the universe that must have a beginning in the same wave length as God that created the universe.

No, she applied a metaphysical idea that everything that exists has a beginning to God as well. This extends beyond "physical things"...
nickthengineer
Posts: 251
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1/27/2010 9:25:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The reason I find Christianity more logical than evolution is because of the principle of something not being able to come from nothing. If the objective is to explain naturalistically how everything came to be, you can't do that completely, as the first something would either have had to come from nothing or just always have been there. Christianity and Judaism say that God has always existed and that He is the source of all creation. I agree that science says this is impossible, but that's the only logical way it could all happen. You can't say that everything came from something before it but only go back as far as you are interested; to be consistent, you must admit that you can't follow that reasoning into eternity past and thus naturalism is circular logic.
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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1/27/2010 9:32:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 9:25:55 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
The reason I find Christianity more logical than evolution is because of the principle of something not being able to come from nothing. If the objective is to explain naturalistically how everything came to be, you can't do that completely, as the first something would either have had to come from nothing or just always have been there. Christianity and Judaism say that God has always existed and that He is the source of all creation. I agree that science says this is impossible, but that's the only logical way it could all happen. You can't say that everything came from something before it but only go back as far as you are interested; to be consistent, you must admit that you can't follow that reasoning into eternity past and thus naturalism is circular logic.

This is something I really can't figure out. How can atheists possibly believe everything came from nothing? How does that work? There had to be some kind of other source setting off the big bang and such.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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1/27/2010 9:37:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 9:25:55 AM, nickthengineer wrote:
The reason I find Christianity more logical than evolution is because of the principle of something not being able to come from nothing. If the objective is to explain naturalistically how everything came to be, you can't do that completely, as the first something would either have had to come from nothing or just always have been there. Christianity and Judaism say that God has always existed and that He is the source of all creation. I agree that science says this is impossible, but that's the only logical way it could all happen. You can't say that everything came from something before it but only go back as far as you are interested; to be consistent, you must admit that you can't follow that reasoning into eternity past and thus naturalism is circular logic.

The reason i find your argument absurd and illogical compared to evolution, is because nowhere in evolution does it even remotely state that something came from nothing. You arent even talking about Evolution, youre talking about the Big Bang theory, but have conflated the two together because both of them contradict your view on the bible.

The other reason why i find your argument absurd and illogical, is because you are confusing logic with common sense. Logically, the universe can be eternal, as well as have created itself. There is no logical argument to date that proves, logically, that either of these are impossible.

For example, stand between two mirrors. When you look into one mirror, you can see your reflection, and the reflection behind you, and in that reflection, you can see yourself again, and in that, again and again ad infinitum. Logically speaking, this occurs an infinite number of times. I find no reason why we cannot admit that this occurs in the past for eternity. I just cannot. Please explain why you can.
tkubok
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1/27/2010 9:38:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 9:32:01 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
This is something I really can't figure out. How can atheists possibly believe everything came from nothing? How does that work? There had to be some kind of other source setting off the big bang and such.

No atheist believes that everything came from nothing. Well, atleast any well informed atheist with a shred of scientific knowledge. The Big Bang is not the start of everything, nor was there nothing before the Big Bang. Infact, the Big Bang is very clear about this, and specifically states that a singularity existed before the big bang. This singularity, could be eternal, and nothing stops it from being eternal, not even logic.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/27/2010 1:14:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God." - I needed to hear this. Thank you DATO.
nickthengineer
Posts: 251
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1/27/2010 5:55:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 9:38:50 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 1/27/2010 9:32:01 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
This is something I really can't figure out. How can atheists possibly believe everything came from nothing? How does that work? There had to be some kind of other source setting off the big bang and such.

No atheist believes that everything came from nothing. Well, atleast any well informed atheist with a shred of scientific knowledge. The Big Bang is not the start of everything, nor was there nothing before the Big Bang. Infact, the Big Bang is very clear about this, and specifically states that a singularity existed before the big bang. This singularity, could be eternal, and nothing stops it from being eternal, not even logic.

Atheists who believe that there was something before the big bang agree in principle with me: there was SOMETHING that always existed from eternity past and was not created by anything else. When I call that something God, atheists flip out and call me ignorant and illogical. That just proves my point about naturalism (and I said naturalism before to make it clear that I was referring to both evolution AND the big bang, if you go back far enough and try futilely to be consistent with your naturalistic world view).
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
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1/28/2010 3:38:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 1:14:10 PM, GodSands wrote:
"You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God." - I needed to hear this. Thank you DATO.

You are MOST welcome my brother.
The Cross.. the Cross.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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1/28/2010 3:48:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 5:55:31 PM, nickthengineer wrote:

Atheists who believe that there was something before the big bang agree in principle with me: there was SOMETHING that always existed from eternity past and was not created by anything else. When I call that something God, atheists flip out and call me ignorant and illogical. That just proves my point about naturalism (and I said naturalism before to make it clear that I was referring to both evolution AND the big bang, if you go back far enough and try futilely to be consistent with your naturalistic world view).

The problem with calling it God, is that youve failed to define the type of God you believe in.

If you were to come to me and say "I believe God was the Singularity that existd before the big bang", i wouldnt flip out, id say "Okay, thats great".

However, my followup questions would be, why would you call it God?

The point being, you wouldnt be re-naming something that already has a name, unless you were attributing specific characteristics that are not present in the original.

I do not know what your specific beliefs are, but judging by previous posts ive seen from you, im guessing you believe in the anthropomorphic omnipotent sentient God. In which case, i would call your beliefs illogical, because there is no reason to believe that any of those attributes existed or could be attributed to whatever existed before the Big Bang.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/2/2010 1:54:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 9:32:01 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:

This is something I really can't figure out. How can atheists possibly believe everything came from nothing? How does that work? There had to be some kind of other source setting off the big bang and such.

How can theists actually "believe" in god? How's that work?

You not only think that there must be a source (which I think our understanding demands) but somehow have discovered the nature of it!

You know this "cause" is a conscious entity, and no oh so much about his personality, sexual preference preferences, clothing preferences, general cares, etc. etc.

How did you come by this knowledge of the nature of that "cause"??

was it a rational deduction based on the evidence?

If so, I'm sure all of the atheists in the world would love to be enlightened.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."