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What is the evidence...

GeoLaureate8
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1/27/2010 4:00:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Demanding negative proof fallacy. You don't ask someone to prove non-existence.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Marauder
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1/27/2010 4:03:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 4:00:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Demanding negative proof fallacy. You don't ask someone to prove non-existence.

Obviously Godsands is asking for evidence that it is not possible for a God to exist.
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/27/2010 4:07:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/27/2010 4:03:55 PM, Marauder wrote:
At 1/27/2010 4:00:34 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Demanding negative proof fallacy. You don't ask someone to prove non-existence.

Obviously Godsands is asking for evidence that it is not possible for a God to exist.


Yes, what evidence is there that shows there is no God. What evidence can you give that would give reason to not believe in God. Give me proof of an absense of God?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/27/2010 4:09:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Define God.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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1/27/2010 4:12:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind

http://www.merriam-webster.com...
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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1/27/2010 4:16:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Argument from evil + argument from non-belief are two positive arguments against the existence of God -- refer to the latter for one I personally find to be stronger.

But do realize the atheist could always have resorted to negative arguments against the existence of God (i.e. saying there is no evidence to suggest his existence, or at least there is barely any that would require our devotion to your sacred dogma). Just relate to examples of fairies -- can you prove they don't exist? I doubt it, they are scientifically plausible entities, but the lack of evidence for their existence precludes any rational person from being an advocate for all fairies...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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1/27/2010 4:17:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 4:11:55 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2010 4:09:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Define God.

An all powerful, all knowing, all loving eternal entity.

Ok, the deist God is possible, but not the Christian God.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GodSands
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1/27/2010 4:18:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/27/2010 4:11:55 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2010 4:09:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Define God.

An all powerful, all knowing, unchanging eternal entity.


These are the primary things, secondary things are that God is Holy, all good, just and righteous. Instead of all loving being a primary it should be unchanging, all loving is a secondary things. Something that is all powerful, all knowing and unchanging would be all loving, all good and righteous, just and fair.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/27/2010 4:19:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 4:11:55 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2010 4:09:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Define God.

An all powerful, all knowing, all loving eternal entity.

Two people's interests conflict. To love them both wholly is an unequivocal contradiction.

Being all powerful includes the ability to do something that cannot be undone., which contradicts being all powerful.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GodSands
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1/27/2010 4:19:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/27/2010 4:17:05 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/27/2010 4:11:55 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2010 4:09:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Define God.

An all powerful, all knowing, all loving eternal entity.

Ok, the deist God is possible, but not the Christian God.


Why?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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1/27/2010 4:19:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 4:16:02 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
Argument from evil + argument from non-belief are two positive arguments against the existence of God -- refer to the latter for one I personally find to be stronger.

But do realize the atheist could always have resorted to negative arguments against the existence of God (i.e. saying there is no evidence to suggest his existence, or at least there is barely any that would require our devotion to your sacred dogma). Just relate to examples of fairies -- can you prove they don't exist? I doubt it, they are scientifically plausible entities, but the lack of evidence for their existence precludes any rational person from being an advocate for all fairies...

The problem of evil isn't that great to me, plus it does not argue against a deist God. I forgot what the argument from nonbelief is.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/27/2010 4:21:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/27/2010 4:19:16 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/27/2010 4:11:55 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2010 4:09:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Define God.

An all powerful, all knowing, all loving eternal entity.

Two people's interests conflict. To love them both wholly is an unequivocal contradiction.

Being all powerful includes the ability to do something that cannot be undone., which contradicts being all powerful.


As God is all knowing, all understanding, God knew what would happen and therefore does not need to exsult His power to reverse anything, God makes not mistakes. God knows the beginning to the end.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/27/2010 4:22:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 4:21:08 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2010 4:19:16 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/27/2010 4:11:55 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2010 4:09:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Define God.

An all powerful, all knowing, all loving eternal entity.

Two people's interests conflict. To love them both wholly is an unequivocal contradiction.

Being all powerful includes the ability to do something that cannot be undone., which contradicts being all powerful.


As God is all knowing, all understanding, God knew what would happen and therefore does not need to exsult His power to reverse anything
It doesn't matter if he NEEDS to. The point that he can't proves he isn't all powerful.

Btw, do you believe in free will?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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1/27/2010 4:24:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 4:19:16 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/27/2010 4:11:55 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2010 4:09:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Define God.

An all powerful, all knowing, all loving eternal entity.

Two people's interests conflict. To love them both wholly is an unequivocal contradiction.

Being all powerful includes the ability to do something that cannot be undone., which contradicts being all powerful.

The ability to do something that cannot be undone does not exist, because God can undo anything. Therefore, this non-existent ability need not be included in "all-powerful."
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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1/27/2010 4:27:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 4:19:51 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/27/2010 4:16:02 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
Argument from evil + argument from non-belief are two positive arguments against the existence of God -- refer to the latter for one I personally find to be stronger.

But do realize the atheist could always have resorted to negative arguments against the existence of God (i.e. saying there is no evidence to suggest his existence, or at least there is barely any that would require our devotion to your sacred dogma). Just relate to examples of fairies -- can you prove they don't exist? I doubt it, they are scientifically plausible entities, but the lack of evidence for their existence precludes any rational person from being an advocate for all fairies...

The problem of evil isn't that great to me,

Then read more :). Kidding aside, while I don't find it as convincing as the argument from non-belief, it certainly isn't as juvenile as you may think it to be. Theodore Drange does a great job at defending it. And yes, I am referring to the evidential version.

plus it does not argue against a deist God. I forgot what the argument from nonbelief is.

When in doubt, Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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1/27/2010 4:34:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 4:27:28 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
At 1/27/2010 4:19:51 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/27/2010 4:16:02 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
Argument from evil + argument from non-belief are two positive arguments against the existence of God -- refer to the latter for one I personally find to be stronger.

But do realize the atheist could always have resorted to negative arguments against the existence of God (i.e. saying there is no evidence to suggest his existence, or at least there is barely any that would require our devotion to your sacred dogma). Just relate to examples of fairies -- can you prove they don't exist? I doubt it, they are scientifically plausible entities, but the lack of evidence for their existence precludes any rational person from being an advocate for all fairies...

The problem of evil isn't that great to me,

Then read more :). Kidding aside, while I don't find it as convincing as the argument from non-belief, it certainly isn't as juvenile as you may think it to be. Theodore Drange does a great job at defending it. And yes, I am referring to the evidential version.

plus it does not argue against a deist God. I forgot what the argument from nonbelief is.

When in doubt, Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org...

Too much work when using an iPod. I'll respond to this when I get on a computer.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GodSands
Posts: 2,843
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1/27/2010 4:37:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 1/27/2010 4:22:34 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/27/2010 4:21:08 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2010 4:19:16 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/27/2010 4:11:55 PM, GodSands wrote:
: At 1/27/2010 4:09:18 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Define God.

An all powerful, all knowing, all loving eternal entity.

Two people's interests conflict. To love them both wholly is an unequivocal contradiction.

Being all powerful includes the ability to do something that cannot be undone., which contradicts being all powerful.


As God is all knowing, all understanding, God knew what would happen and therefore does not need to exsult His power to reverse anything
It doesn't matter if he NEEDS to. The point that he can't proves he isn't all powerful.

Btw, do you believe in free will?


Free will as in we as humans can choose what we can do, God knows what we will do but gives us the ability to choose what we do. God knows what we will do, God knows who will go to hell and who will enter His Kingdom. We as humans which are timeful cannot understand the timeless since we are selves are created to operate in time, our sense organs which operate in time have not expressed a timeless situation and therefore we cannot describe the situation that God faces when knowing who will and will not enter His Kingdom. We can imatate what it maybe like to be God, however given that it would totally destroy the very notion and ability that our free will belongs to us and us only by allowing or saying, "Why doesn't God intervine and stop millions and millions entering hell if God knows who will go to either of the two places?"

God has not only told us to accept His Son Christ, but Christ has commanded us to accept Him. This gives us the ability to choose without too much pressure, that being we feel we are being fouced into something or that there is no way of us knowing that hell really exists and given the excuse of, "We didn't know."

So God does not intervine in our choosing, God knew before time it self that many will be justified by hell and eternal punishment, saying that, God is not under any control of fate, God is fate and the drive of fate, what will happen will happen because of God.
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
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1/27/2010 5:04:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
regarding the nature of God, while he IS all powerful he does not contradict himself (as this would mean he did something wrong, something that would leave him no better than his creation). . . . this is why he allows evil to exist. . . .

regarding free will .. . . . its very complicated, but what I believe is that God DID give us the choice to love him, God is "good" . .. . if you don't love good then you love "evil" . . .theres only two choices, just like theres only heaven and hell. . . . heaven is for the righteous, those who love that which is good. Hell is for those who love evil.

So how can we have free will if God knows what is to come?. . . . well i think of it as a web, all originating from the Garden of Eden and Eve's choice. Every human being in existence adds to this web, every choice we make in life adds to this web. Again, there are only really two choices in any situation, will we love that which is good or that which is evil? God see's every choice and every future choice either of the former choices will lead to and so forth and so on until we die. This is why he is infinitely wise because He knows EVERY choice we could possibly make. . . .

This is how I have "rationalized" our free will in regards to God's power, hope it helps . . ..
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/27/2010 5:08:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 5:04:12 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
regarding the nature of God, while he IS all powerful he does not contradict himself (as this would mean he did something wrong, something that would leave him no better than his creation). . . . this is why he allows evil to exist. . . .

regarding free will .. . . . its very complicated, but what I believe is that God DID give us the choice to love him, God is "good" . .. . if you don't love good then you love "evil" . . .theres only two choices, just like theres only heaven and hell. . . . heaven is for the righteous, those who love that which is good. Hell is for those who love evil.

So how can we have free will if God knows what is to come?. . . . well i think of it as a web, all originating from the Garden of Eden and Eve's choice. Every human being in existence adds to this web, every choice we make in life adds to this web. Again, there are only really two choices in any situation, will we love that which is good or that which is evil? God see's every choice and every future choice either of the former choices will lead to and so forth and so on until we die. This is why he is infinitely wise because He knows EVERY choice we could possibly make. . . .

This is how I have "rationalized" our free will in regards to God's power, hope it helps . . ..

So you're saying, rather then knowing the exact future, he knows every possible outcome that can ever happen?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
gr33k_fr33k5
Posts: 321
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1/27/2010 6:38:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 5:08:12 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 1/27/2010 5:04:12 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:

So you're saying, rather then knowing the exact future, he knows every possible outcome that can ever happen?

yes, but, he does know the future, because he has a set and planned time when he will return and regardless of our choices it is fast approaching. . . . He has the apocalypse planned and that is the ultimate end. . .
I am free, free indeed!

ignorance is bliss
nickthengineer
Posts: 251
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1/27/2010 8:18:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Atheists claim they don't believe in God. God claims He doesn't believe in atheists (Romans 1:20). Boy, I would sure hate to be on the wrong side of this one...
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
mattrodstrom
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1/27/2010 8:38:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
[There is no reason to believe in god] + [Unreasonable beliefs are Bad]

= Anti-Theism
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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1/27/2010 8:45:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 8:38:57 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
[There is no reason to believe in god] + [Unreasonable beliefs are Bad]

= Anti-Theism

Anti-Theism FTW.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
banker
Posts: 1,370
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1/27/2010 8:47:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The way ragner posed the question I agree with him ..!
"DEFINE GOD"?
My answer is a intelegent source..! Not becuase I am a new age or a budhist..! No not at all.! It becuase only then it makes sence to ask a athiest for evidence..! And then the question is very logical.! Why is it that a sudden bactiria cuased such a mignificent order creating wormes who evolved in intelactual bieng..? All is in such a order thet with any tiny alteration it would not be possible ..! Like your too close to the sun...! Of your far and lose gravity..!
I hope we could find a athies who is far enough ganerationwise from monkreys so he would be able to answer .., we need to have a answer for their belief that this mignificent order couincidently accured
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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1/27/2010 10:03:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 8:47:32 PM, banker wrote:
The way ragner posed the question I agree with him ..!
"DEFINE GOD"?
My answer is a intelegent source..! Not becuase I am a new age or a budhist..! No not at all.! It becuase only then it makes sence to ask a athiest for evidence..! And then the question is very logical.! Why is it that a sudden bactiria cuased such a mignificent order creating wormes who evolved in intelactual bieng..? All is in such a order thet with any tiny alteration it would not be possible ..! Like your too close to the sun...! Of your far and lose gravity..!
I hope we could find a athies who is far enough ganerationwise from monkreys so he would be able to answer .., we need to have a answer for their belief that this mignificent order couincidently accured

I think when most people think of god, atheists included they think of the Judeo-Christian concept of god so maybe Ragnar_Rahl had something else in mind?
tkubok
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1/28/2010 3:36:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Oh fail.

At 1/27/2010 5:04:12 PM, gr33k_fr33k5 wrote:
regarding the nature of God, while he IS all powerful he does not contradict himself (as this would mean he did something wrong, something that would leave him no better than his creation). . . . this is why he allows evil to exist. . . .
Omnipotence contradicts with itself, such as the tired old canard argument of "Can god make a rock so heavy that even he couldnt lift it". There are only two possible ways to explain this. Either God is a slave to logic, and therefore must follow the dictates of Logic, which throw that argument out because it is an equivocation fallacy, but also throws out the omnipotence of God because there are restrictions to God, or God can contradict Logic, and therefore makes your original argument, or any argument against or For the existance of God, meaningless.
regarding free will .. . . . its very complicated, but what I believe is that God DID give us the choice to love him, God is "good" . .. . if you don't love good then you love "evil" . . .theres only two choices, just like theres only heaven and hell. . . . heaven is for the righteous, those who love that which is good. Hell is for those who love evil.
Fail.

First of all, Good and evil are not true dichotomies.

Second, if someone loves God, and commits tons of mass murders in his name, is he Good? Does he love Good? Is he going to enter heaven?

If the answer is no, then congrats. Loving God has nothing to do with loving Good or doing good or believeing in good.

Thirdly, can you even remotely conceive of a justice system where the person who stole candy from a baby receives the same punishment as the person who slaughtered, raped and molested a dozen children?

So how can we have free will if God knows what is to come?. . . . well i think of it as a web, all originating from the Garden of Eden and Eve's choice. Every human being in existence adds to this web, every choice we make in life adds to this web. Again, there are only really two choices in any situation, will we love that which is good or that which is evil? God see's every choice and every future choice either of the former choices will lead to and so forth and so on until we die. This is why he is infinitely wise because He knows EVERY choice we could possibly make. . . .

Fail.

There are sometimes greater goods and greater evils. For example, giving a homeless person $10, as opposed to giving a homeless person a sandwhich. Both are good, but maybe it was better to give them a sandwhich, else he might spend the money on drugs? Maybe it was better to give him the money, which he was saving to buy a new coat so that he doesnt freeze to death in winter? Which is evil, and which is good?
tkubok
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1/28/2010 3:38:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 8:18:04 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
Atheists claim they don't believe in God. God claims He doesn't believe in atheists (Romans 1:20). Boy, I would sure hate to be on the wrong side of this one...

Fail.

Id sure hate to be on that side too. But If the Muslims are right, id also hate to be a christian too.

What youre trying to lead us to, is pascals wager. Youre basically saying "Isnt it better to believe in God, lest you burn in hell?" Congrats, this argument fails as demonstrated above. If the muslims are right, and you are a christian, you burn in hell. Boy id hate to be on the other side of the Muslim God too. Doesnt make your argument any more convincing though, does it?
tkubok
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1/28/2010 3:39:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 8:38:57 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
[There is no reason to believe in god] + [Unreasonable beliefs are Bad]

= Anti-Theism

No, thats Atheism.

There is no reason to believe in God != There is no God.

Antitheism has to do with the direct belief that there is no God or Gods.