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Could God make a mistake?

rroberts
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3/24/2014 7:47:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
According to the bible, God made Adam and Eve (and apparently the Devil) and put them all in the garden with orders to do most anything they wanted to except to stay away from that tree. Well they disobeyed Him and we all know the rest. Did you ever wonder how an omniscient all powerful and knowing God could do something and then later become angry and disgusted with his creatures for doing exactly what He knew ahead of time they were going to do? He apparently even changed the physical anatomy of the woman so she would thereafter have a very difficult and painful child birth. He sounds more like a bungling vindictive experimenter than the all knowing and loving God I was taught about in Bible class.
rr
slo1
Posts: 4,332
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3/24/2014 7:58:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 7:47:48 AM, rroberts wrote:
According to the bible, God made Adam and Eve (and apparently the Devil) and put them all in the garden with orders to do most anything they wanted to except to stay away from that tree. Well they disobeyed Him and we all know the rest. Did you ever wonder how an omniscient all powerful and knowing God could do something and then later become angry and disgusted with his creatures for doing exactly what He knew ahead of time they were going to do? He apparently even changed the physical anatomy of the woman so she would thereafter have a very difficult and painful child birth. He sounds more like a bungling vindictive experimenter than the all knowing and loving God I was taught about in Bible class.

You forgot about the bit of Adam and Eve not having knowledge of good and evil so when they disobeyed God they obviously did not disobey him.

That is why most rational Christians accept the creation story and Adam and Eve as allegory. If you read it literally then the only rational conclusion is that God is mentally challenged.
rroberts
Posts: 27
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3/24/2014 8:35:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Good reply. Now I wonder where in the old testament allegory ends and reality begins. The more I read the old testament the more disgusted with "that" god I become.
rr
el_em_en_oh
Posts: 66
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3/24/2014 9:16:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 7:47:48 AM, rroberts wrote:
According to the bible, God made Adam and Eve (and apparently the Devil) and put them all in the garden with orders to do most anything they wanted to except to stay away from that tree. Well they disobeyed Him and we all know the rest. Did you ever wonder how an omniscient all powerful and knowing God could do something and then later become angry and disgusted with his creatures for doing exactly what He knew ahead of time they were going to do? He apparently even changed the physical anatomy of the woman so she would thereafter have a very difficult and painful child birth. He sounds more like a bungling vindictive experimenter than the all knowing and loving God I was taught about in Bible class.

I'm actually a non-believer, but have studied the bible quite extensively (went to Baylor and had to read it cover-to-cover several 10's of times, not to mention discuss and debate it's intricacies), and have wondered the same thing myself.

Why would an omniscient being/creator, place boundaries on XYZ? If he knew what was going to happen, would you think he'd set it up differently, so the outcome would be to his liking, and since he didn't, does that make him the world's biggest douchebag?

Interesting discussion for the believers out there. Passing fancy for the non-believers, but interesting none the less.

I respect people of faith, but with all the questions and "riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma" type of stuff in the bible, and in religion in general, I just don't see how anyone CAN and DOES believe as firmly as some do.

No respect for organized religion mind you, but that's a topic for a different day.
TheOncomingStorm
Posts: 249
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3/24/2014 10:16:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 7:47:48 AM, rroberts wrote:
According to the bible, God made Adam and Eve (and apparently the Devil) and put them all in the garden with orders to do most anything they wanted to except to stay away from that tree.

He had to give a choice between himself and evil, so it makes sense so far.

Well they disobeyed Him and we all know the rest.

Yes, they exercised free will and chose evil.

Did you ever wonder how an omniscient all powerful and knowing God could do something and then later become angry and disgusted with his creatures for doing exactly what He knew ahead of time they were going to do?

Whether he knew the future or not, he had to give them a choice as to what they would do. In order for love to exist there has to be a choice between him and his opposite. Adam and Eve made a choice to disobey God when they had a clear option to obey him. Disobeying God is evil. It is good too punish evil. If God did not punish evil then he would not be a good God.

He apparently even changed the physical anatomy of the woman so she would thereafter have a very difficult and painful child birth.

Not really. It's just that when evil enters the world, things start to deteriorate. He was just letting her know ahead of time.

He sounds more like a bungling vindictive experimenter than the all knowing and loving God I was taught about in Bible class.

Love doesn't mean "giving pleasure 100% of the time."
Official "Director of Weather and Hyperbole in the Maximum Degree of Mice and Men" of the FREEDO bureaucracy.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/24/2014 11:12:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 7:47:48 AM, rroberts wrote:
According to the bible, God made Adam and Eve (and apparently the Devil) and put them all in the garden with orders to do most anything they wanted to except to stay away from that tree. Well they disobeyed Him and we all know the rest. Did you ever wonder how an omniscient all powerful and knowing God could do something and then later become angry and disgusted with his creatures for doing exactly what He knew ahead of time they were going to do? He apparently even changed the physical anatomy of the woman so she would thereafter have a very difficult and painful child birth. He sounds more like a bungling vindictive experimenter than the all knowing and loving God I was taught about in Bible class.

It's apparent that you think our Creator made mistakes but I guarantee you that it's impossible to make a mistake according to an eternal plan.

Whatever He planned will take place so how can that be a mistake?
Juan_Pablo
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3/24/2014 11:19:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's my personal belief that God is a God that learns, that he's not omniscient, and that he is capable of making mistakes.

However, I also believe God tries to rectify and correct mistakes after he realizes he's made them.

This is a similar approach that each of us humans should take. Once we make a mistake, we see that we've done or concluded is wrong, we go about and correct. If God makes mistakes and tries to correct them, I see no reason why humans can't admit to making mistakes and try to rectify these mistakes.

I'm prone to making mistakes all the time - and they frequently embarrass me. But the wise approach is to fix mistakes once they've happened.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/24/2014 1:02:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 11:19:03 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
It's my personal belief that God is a God that learns, that he's not omniscient, and that he is capable of making mistakes.

However, I also believe God tries to rectify and correct mistakes after he realizes he's made them.

This is a similar approach that each of us humans should take. Once we make a mistake, we see that we've done or concluded is wrong, we go about and correct. If God makes mistakes and tries to correct them, I see no reason why humans can't admit to making mistakes and try to rectify these mistakes.

I'm prone to making mistakes all the time - and they frequently embarrass me. But the wise approach is to fix mistakes once they've happened.

You sound like a Christian who believes he's god on this planet. Of course Christians believe they make mistakes because they have never known our true Creator.
Iredia
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3/24/2014 1:33:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
People can predict people will do silly stuff ahead of time and still be irked by it. You of all prople should know this as it applies to how you see the Bible. And as for whether God can make a mistake, sure He can. An omniscient being that knows nothing about mistakes is not omniscient, don't you think ?
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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3/24/2014 1:47:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well either God is not Omniscient, or he is Malevolent (talking the Judeo-Christian one).

Using David Silverman's argument from evil, God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden with perfect foreknowledge that Adam would eat that fruit, and therefore condemn billions of people to hell.

He knew this with perfect knowledge, and yet he did so, when it would have been so easy to not do this. Therefore God caused this to occur, God exiled Adam and Eve and God sent billions to eternal pain and torment.

To resolve this God must either have not known of the consequences before he placed the tree there, or he did so deliberately.
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bornofgod
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3/24/2014 5:43:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 1:47:19 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
Well either God is not Omniscient, or he is Malevolent (talking the Judeo-Christian one).

Using David Silverman's argument from evil, God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden with perfect foreknowledge that Adam would eat that fruit, and therefore condemn billions of people to hell.

He knew this with perfect knowledge, and yet he did so, when it would have been so easy to not do this. Therefore God caused this to occur, God exiled Adam and Eve and God sent billions to eternal pain and torment.

To resolve this God must either have not known of the consequences before he placed the tree there, or he did so deliberately.

God carefully planned everything before He spoke His invisible vibrations into existence. From those stored thoughts ( wavelengths of energy "God's bits of information" ) are processed illusions to make us created "beings" believe in a defined world to experience.
Sswdwm
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3/24/2014 5:57:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 5:43:55 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/24/2014 1:47:19 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
Well either God is not Omniscient, or he is Malevolent (talking the Judeo-Christian one).

Using David Silverman's argument from evil, God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden with perfect foreknowledge that Adam would eat that fruit, and therefore condemn billions of people to hell.

He knew this with perfect knowledge, and yet he did so, when it would have been so easy to not do this. Therefore God caused this to occur, God exiled Adam and Eve and God sent billions to eternal pain and torment.

To resolve this God must either have not known of the consequences before he placed the tree there, or he did so deliberately.

God carefully planned everything before He spoke His invisible vibrations into existence. From those stored thoughts ( wavelengths of energy "God's bits of information" ) are processed illusions to make us created "beings" believe in a defined world to experience.

Why are you responding to my post regarding specifically the Judeo-Christian God with your own one? It's off topic at best.
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bornofgod
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3/24/2014 6:11:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 5:57:20 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/24/2014 5:43:55 PM, bornofgod wrote:
At 3/24/2014 1:47:19 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
Well either God is not Omniscient, or he is Malevolent (talking the Judeo-Christian one).

Using David Silverman's argument from evil, God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden with perfect foreknowledge that Adam would eat that fruit, and therefore condemn billions of people to hell.

He knew this with perfect knowledge, and yet he did so, when it would have been so easy to not do this. Therefore God caused this to occur, God exiled Adam and Eve and God sent billions to eternal pain and torment.

To resolve this God must either have not known of the consequences before he placed the tree there, or he did so deliberately.

God carefully planned everything before He spoke His invisible vibrations into existence. From those stored thoughts ( wavelengths of energy "God's bits of information" ) are processed illusions to make us created "beings" believe in a defined world to experience.

Why are you responding to my post regarding specifically the Judeo-Christian God with your own one? It's off topic at best.

I'm right on topic my friend. Christians have never known who I AM, even though they read about me in their Bible.
rroberts
Posts: 27
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3/25/2014 9:31:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Wouldn"t it seem a rather pointless waste of time for God to have given mankind free will when he knew ahead of time with certainty that they would use it to do things against his will? Can you imagine God telling mankind that I"m giving you a gift of free will. But I never want you to use it to do anything I might disapprove of. That gift of free will was no gift at all. It was a clever trap designed to catch humans who chose to use it.
rr
Adrilidexus
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3/25/2014 10:55:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
To understand the reasoning behind the discussion, we must first investigate a few spectrums of points that factor into a possible answer. My answer will be based off of my logic, perception, and theory, as I feel religion as a whole, when not based upon fact, is theory, and may only be counteracted by theory.

First off, we need to understand a mistake. What is a mistake? A mistake is the outcome of a tree of possiblilities, in which we as man must choose where we side when it comes to left or right. Each decision leads to another branch, from each branch a twig grows into it's ancestor. By this logic, we can assume that with each step followed in the path designed at the birth of mankind, repeated to us in the book of Genesis must have been a derivation of the theory of possibility.

Thus said, we learn from our mistakes, as we are imperfect. I will get to that point later, but keep in mind the theorem of perfection, and what it takes to fully attain perfection in life. We can assume that as "God" created the world, there was a slight possibility of a chance he made a mistake. Perfectly natural as a creator, but as a creator, he would have had to use the mistake as part of another form of art. In my personal opinion, God isn't perfect, it's impossible to be perfect unless he was imperfect.

This brings us to our next point: imperfection. To fully obtain perfection in life, we must learn from our imperfections and build upon them. If God is indeed perfect, God would have had to have lived an imperfect life. As far as we know, he didn't, and existed as a perfect entity in his lifespan, an impossibility at that.

As it stands, to have created a "perfect" world based on his image and idealism, God must have been imperfect, meaning he made mistakes. We say he is perfect, but by that outcome, we are all imperfect, and progress from perfection to imperfection with age. Yes?
Haroush
Posts: 1,329
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3/25/2014 12:07:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 7:47:48 AM, rroberts wrote:
According to the bible, God made Adam and Eve (and apparently the Devil) and put them all in the garden with orders to do most anything they wanted to except to stay away from that tree. Well they disobeyed Him and we all know the rest. Did you ever wonder how an omniscient all powerful and knowing God could do something and then later become angry and disgusted with his creatures for doing exactly what He knew ahead of time they were going to do? He apparently even changed the physical anatomy of the woman so she would thereafter have a very difficult and painful child birth. He sounds more like a bungling vindictive experimenter than the all knowing and loving God I was taught about in Bible class.

G-d didn't create the devil. This is a misconception that is always being reannounced all the time. Free will is not a mistake. Here is a well thought out answer approved by S. Michael Houdmann. If this isn't enough I have plenty of other sources too.

This is a two-part question. The first part is "Did God know Satan would rebel and Adam and Eve would sin?" The answer lies in what the Bible teaches about God"s knowledge. We know from Scripture that God is omniscient, which literally means "all-knowing." Job 37:16; Psalm 139:2-4, 147:5; Proverbs 5:21; Isaiah 46:9-10; and 1 John 3:19-20 leave no doubt that God"s knowledge is infinite and that He knows everything that has happened in the past, is happening now, and will happen in the future.

Looking at some of the superlatives in these verses""perfect in knowledge"; "his understanding has no limit"; "he knows everything""it is clear that God"s knowledge is not merely greater than our own, but it is infinitely greater. He knows all things in totality. Isaiah 46:10 declares He not only knows everything, but He controls everything as well. How else could He "make known" to us what would happen in the future and state unequivocally that His plans will come to pass? So, did God know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Did He know Lucifer would rebel against Him and become Satan? Yes! Absolutely! Were they out of His control at any time? Absolutely not. If God"s knowledge is not perfect, then there is a deficiency in His nature. Any deficiency in God"s nature means He cannot be God, for God"s very essence requires the perfection of all His attributes. Therefore, the answer to the first question must, by necessity, be "yes."

Moving on to the second part of the question, "Why did God create Satan and Adam and Eve knowing ahead of time they were going to sin?" This question is a little trickier because we are asking a "why" question to which the Bible does not usually provide comprehensive answers. Despite that, we should be able to come to a limited understanding if we examine some biblical passages. To begin, we have already seen that God is omniscient and nothing can happen outside of His knowledge. So, if God knew that Satan would rebel and fall from heaven and that Adam and Eve would sin, yet He created them anyway, it must mean that the fall of mankind was part of God"s sovereign plan from the beginning. No other answer makes sense given what we have been saying thus far.

Now we must be careful to note that Adam and Eve falling into sin does not mean that God is the author of sin, nor that he tempted Adam and Eve to sin (James 1:13). The fall serves the purpose of God"s overall plan for creation and mankind. This, again, must be the case, or else the fall of mankind would never have happened.

If we consider what some theologians call the "meta-narrative" (or overarching story line) of Scripture, we see that biblical history can be roughly divided into three main sections: 1) paradise (Genesis 1"2); 2) paradise lost (Genesis 3 " Revelation 20); and 3) paradise regained (Revelation 21"22). By far the largest part of the narrative is devoted to moving from paradise lost to paradise regained. At the center of this meta-narrative is the cross. The cross was planned from the very beginning (Acts 2:23). It was foreknown and foreordained that Christ would go to the cross and give His life as a ransom for many (Matthew 20:28)"those chosen by God"s foreknowledge and predestined to be His people (Ephesians 1:4-5).

Reading Scripture very carefully and taking what has been said so far, we are led to the following conclusions:

1. The rebellion of Satan and the fall of mankind were foreknown and foreordained by God.
2. Those who would become the people of God, the elect, were foreknown and foreordained by God.
3. The crucifixion of Christ, as atonement for God"s people, was foreknown and foreordained by God.

So, we are left with the following questions: Why create mankind with the knowledge of the fall? Why create mankind knowing that only some would be "saved?" Why send Jesus knowingly to die for a people that knowingly fell into sin? From man"s perspective, it does not make sense. If the meta-narrative moves from paradise, to paradise lost, to paradise regained, why not just go straight to paradise regained and avoid the whole paradise lost interlude?

The only conclusion we can come to, in view of the above assertions, is that God"s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God"s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). Our sin causes us to fall short of God"s glory (Romans 3:23), and in the new heaven and new earth, the glory of God is what will provide light (Revelation 21:23). The glory of God is manifest when His attributes are on perfect display, and the story of redemption is part of that.

The best place to see this in Scripture is Romans 9:19-24. Wrath and mercy display the riches of God"s glory, and you cannot get either without the fall of mankind. Therefore, all of these actions"fall, election, redemption, atonement"serve the purpose of glorifying God. When man fell into sin, God"s mercy was immediately displayed in not killing him on the spot. God"s patience and forbearance were also on display as mankind fell deeper into sin prior to the flood. God"s justice and wrath were on display as He executed judgment during the flood, and God"s mercy and grace were demonstrated as He saved Noah and his family. God"s wrath and justice will be revealed in the future when He deals with Satan once and for all (Revelation 20:7-10).

The ultimate exhibition of God"s glory was at the cross where His wrath, justice, and mercy met. The righteous judgment of all sin was executed at the cross, and God"s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son, Jesus, instead of on us. God"s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). In the end, God will be glorified as His chosen people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners (Philippians 2:11). None of this could have come to pass without the rebellion of Satan and the fall of Adam and Eve.

The classic objection to this position is that God"s foreknowledge and foreordination of the fall damages man"s freedom. In other words, if God created mankind with full knowledge of the impending fall into sin, how can man be responsible for his sin? The best answer to this question can be found in the Westminster Confession of Faith chapter III:
Haroush
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3/25/2014 12:07:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established" (WFC, III.1)

What this is saying is that God ordains future events in such a way that our freedom and the working of secondary causes (e.g., laws of nature) are preserved. Theologians call this "concurrence." God"s sovereign will flows concurrently with our free choices in such a way that our free choices always result in the carrying out of God"s will (by "free choices" we mean that our choices are not coerced by outside influences).

To summarize, God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. Even though the fall was foreknown and foreordained, our freedom in making choices is not violated because our free choices are the means by which God"s will is carried out.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org...
rroberts
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3/25/2014 4:49:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
To summarize, God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. "

And all it did was manifest his stupidity. His creation of them was a complete waste of time, an experiment that he knew was doomed to failure. A real god would not waste time doing something completely pointless just as a real chemist would not waste time mixing a little salt in water to see if it would dissolve since he already knows it will.

Why not just admit that your god is too irrational to exist. Then you can quit making excuses for his actions.
rr
Haroush
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3/25/2014 5:17:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/25/2014 4:49:16 PM, rroberts wrote:
To summarize, God knew that Satan would rebel and that Adam and Eve would sin in the Garden of Eden. With that knowledge, God still created Lucifer and Adam and Eve because creating them and ordaining the fall was part of His sovereign plan to manifest His glory in all its fullness. "

And all it did was manifest his stupidity. His creation of them was a complete waste of time, an experiment that he knew was doomed to failure. A real god would not waste time doing something completely pointless just as a real chemist would not waste time mixing a little salt in water to see if it would dissolve since he already knows it will.

Why not just admit that your god is too irrational to exist. Then you can quit making excuses for his actions.

No, I will not stop speaking on these issues and we aren't giving excuses for G-d. We are simply explaining what has been misunderstood by people confused about the Word of G-d. If you don't like what we are saying and rather not hear it, then go huddle up around Richard Dawkins for your answers to life.
Measure
Posts: 142
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3/26/2014 12:12:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 7:47:48 AM, rroberts wrote:
According to the bible, God made Adam and Eve (and apparently the Devil) and put them all in the garden with orders to do most anything they wanted to except to stay away from that tree. Well they disobeyed Him and we all know the rest. Did you ever wonder how an omniscient all powerful and knowing God could do something and then later become angry and disgusted with his creatures for doing exactly what He knew ahead of time they were going to do? He apparently even changed the physical anatomy of the woman so she would thereafter have a very difficult and painful child birth. He sounds more like a bungling vindictive experimenter than the all knowing and loving God I was taught about in Bible class.

Lucifer = the morning star
Satan = adversary, also known as (devil, great red dragon, etc.)
Lucifer, turned, Satan, by his own choice.
JESUS put Adam into the garden HE made for him.
You were taught well in your bible class. JESUS was not angry, HE was hurt, not trusted, and made all things for their happiness and they didn't trust HIM, and they knew HIM. Instead they trust someone else whom they didn't know and did nothing for them. A lesson to be learned.
Composer
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3/26/2014 12:23:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Young's Literal Translation & the EMPHATIC DIAGLOTT Translations make NO mention of the Term ' Satan ' in their entire narratives!

So where did this supposed Satan go?

&

Story books that do mention the term Satam also state that Satan was called Peter (Mark 8:33)
Measure
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3/26/2014 12:26:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 7:47:48 AM, rroberts wrote:
According to the bible, God made Adam and Eve (and apparently the Devil) and put them all in the garden with orders to do most anything they wanted to except to stay away from that tree. Well they disobeyed Him and we all know the rest. Did you ever wonder how an omniscient all powerful and knowing God could do something and then later become angry and disgusted with his creatures for doing exactly what He knew ahead of time they were going to do? He apparently even changed the physical anatomy of the woman so she would thereafter have a very difficult and painful child birth. He sounds more like a bungling vindictive experimenter than the all knowing and loving God I was taught about in Bible class.

From the title" Could God make a mistake?" then HE would be like me or you and could not to be wholly trusted, then what would be the point.
Composer
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3/26/2014 12:34:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Adam & Eve were NOT given the opportunity to make an informed or freewill decision!

1. They didn't have the knowledge of good nor evil so couldn't make an informed choice!

2. They were NOT given a freewill -

The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies (WordWeb)

Instead according to so called xtianity, they were actually deprived of a freewill because Story book a_hole god threatened them with Death if they didn't comply!
Composer
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3/26/2014 12:39:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 12:12:08 AM, Measure wrote:
At 3/24/2014 7:47:48 AM, rroberts wrote:
According to the bible, God made Adam and Eve (and apparently the Devil) and put them all in the garden with orders to do most anything they wanted to except to stay away from that tree. Well they disobeyed Him and we all know the rest. Did you ever wonder how an omniscient all powerful and knowing God could do something and then later become angry and disgusted with his creatures for doing exactly what He knew ahead of time they were going to do? He apparently even changed the physical anatomy of the woman so she would thereafter have a very difficult and painful child birth. He sounds more like a bungling vindictive experimenter than the all knowing and loving God I was taught about in Bible class.

Lucifer = the morning star
Satan = adversary, also known as (devil, great red dragon, etc.)
Lucifer, turned, Satan, by his own choice.
JESUS put Adam into the garden HE made for him.
You were taught well in your bible class. JESUS was not angry, HE was hurt, not trusted, and made all things for their happiness and they didn't trust HIM, and they knew HIM. Instead they trust someone else whom they didn't know and did nothing for them. A lesson to be learned.
The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to jebus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for the lard jebus in Revelation 22:16.
Measure
Posts: 142
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3/26/2014 12:50:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 12:39:59 AM, Composer wrote:
At 3/26/2014 12:12:08 AM, Measure wrote:
At 3/24/2014 7:47:48 AM, rroberts wrote:
According to the bible, God made Adam and Eve (and apparently the Devil) and put them all in the garden with orders to do most anything they wanted to except to stay away from that tree. Well they disobeyed Him and we all know the rest. Did you ever wonder how an omniscient all powerful and knowing God could do something and then later become angry and disgusted with his creatures for doing exactly what He knew ahead of time they were going to do? He apparently even changed the physical anatomy of the woman so she would thereafter have a very difficult and painful child birth. He sounds more like a bungling vindictive experimenter than the all knowing and loving God I was taught about in Bible class.

Lucifer = the morning star
Satan = adversary, also known as (devil, great red dragon, etc.)
Lucifer, turned, Satan, by his own choice.
JESUS put Adam into the garden HE made for him.
You were taught well in your bible class. JESUS was not angry, HE was hurt, not trusted, and made all things for their happiness and they didn't trust HIM, and they knew HIM. Instead they trust someone else whom they didn't know and did nothing for them. A lesson to be learned.
The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to jebus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for the lard jebus in Revelation 22:16.

Yes, the irony!
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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3/26/2014 7:51:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Most God believers I suspect would answer no.

Since they are operating on the assumption that God exists and is perfect it is concluded thus God does not make mistakes.

It get's worse, what ever such a God does must be perfect. As it is imagined a perfect God only does perfect, if a perfect God did something which could of being done better........well he ain't be too perfect now is he.

I think Leibniz argues we live in the best possible world according to this kind of logic.

It's one of those things which sounds good on the surface but in the end I think you just end up causing more problems for yourself adhering to this cause when people bring up objections you need to come up with extra stuff and perform all sorts of questionable rationlisations to make this conception of a perfect God fit with the real world.

Hey.................he works in mysterious ways ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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3/26/2014 8:26:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
God certainly does make mistakes: whoppers, in fact!

Let's take a random story from the Bible....I don't know, what about Noah and the Flood for instance?

Okay, some men down on earth have been badly behaved so God, without thinking it through properly, decided to teach them a lesson by drowning them all in a great flood that inundated the entire planet.

This was a mistake for the following reasons:

A. Because reincarnation is a feature of Hinduism only errant Hindus benefitted from this lesson, the Jews and proto-Christians were none the wiser.

B. Innocent men, women and children drowned as well as the bad guys.

C. As well as gurgling little babies, sweet little baa-lambs, cute little bunny rabbits, darling little chick-chicks, frisky little puppies and adorable little kittens were scoffed in a mass feeding frenzy, the main beneficiaries of which were sharks, crocodiles, anacondas and piranhas, who of course were delighted God had decided to flood the Earth.

Given God's clear fallibility; long record of avoidable and unnecessary disasters; along with His refusal to admonish paedophile priests, it is no wonder the Church is haemorrhaging support these days.
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rroberts
Posts: 27
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3/26/2014 8:52:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The sad thing is that one soon discovers it is a useless waste of time asking questions about the actions of a believer's god. No mater what irrational thing he is reported to do in the very bible itself, they have an excuse for it. When his actions defy logic they say he is above logic. When he violates the laws of physics they say he can make and change them at will. No mater what enigma is presented, they just add some characteristic to his almightyness to cover it. I really think that if their god said 2 + 3 = 6, they would buy it.
Their god is a magician who can do anything he wants. And they know this is so because it is all written down in "the book". And they have been taught if it is in the book it must be true. And you dare not question the book, or that egotistical, genicidal, dictatorial, angry god just might destroy them like he destroyed millions of innocent peaceful people in that supposed flood. Someone said he did not act out of anger, his feelings were hurt. What a lot of horse droppings. Do you really think a supreme being could have hurt feelings? Quit making god in your immage. It's supposed to be the other way around.
rr
Haroush
Posts: 1,329
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3/26/2014 9:46:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/26/2014 8:52:34 AM, rroberts wrote:
The sad thing is that one soon discovers it is a useless waste of time asking questions about the actions of a believer's god. No mater what irrational thing he is reported to do in the very bible itself, they have an excuse for it. When his actions defy logic they say he is above logic. When he violates the laws of physics they say he can make and change them at will. No mater what enigma is presented, they just add some characteristic to his almightyness to cover it. I really think that if their god said 2 + 3 = 6, they would buy it.
Their god is a magician who can do anything he wants. And they know this is so because it is all written down in "the book". And they have been taught if it is in the book it must be true. And you dare not question the book, or that egotistical, genicidal, dictatorial, angry god just might destroy them like he destroyed millions of innocent peaceful people in that supposed flood. Someone said he did not act out of anger, his feelings were hurt. What a lot of horse droppings. Do you really think a supreme being could have hurt feelings? Quit making god in your immage. It's supposed to be the other way around.

Not everyone has been taught this from a kid on up. I myself am a good example of this. I was once atheist and for majority of my life up to now was I an atheist. I actually didn't start getting into the Bible until I was 21 years old (Now, I am 24). Furthermore, the God that was a magician was Ra not YHWH. Lastly, the tanakh and the NT are a literature masterpiece. Therefore, if you treat it as some simple reading, you will not understand it.. at ALL.