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Atheists: what is the right kind of evidence

Sswdwm
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3/28/2014 4:29:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Verifiable miracles and precise prophecies are probably the right way to go. In Islam they claim the moon split into two, this would work pretty well,
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the_streetsurfer
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3/28/2014 4:51:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:29:23 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Verifiable miracles and precise prophecies are probably the right way to go. In Islam they claim the moon split into two, this would work pretty well,

Precise prophecies? Have you ever read the Bible?!
Sswdwm
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3/28/2014 4:52:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:51:15 PM, the_streetsurfer wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:29:23 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Verifiable miracles and precise prophecies are probably the right way to go. In Islam they claim the moon split into two, this would work pretty well,

Precise prophecies? Have you ever read the Bible?!

Yup, which do you refer to?
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the_streetsurfer
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3/28/2014 4:52:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:52:06 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:51:15 PM, the_streetsurfer wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:29:23 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Verifiable miracles and precise prophecies are probably the right way to go. In Islam they claim the moon split into two, this would work pretty well,

Precise prophecies? Have you ever read the Bible?!

Yup, which do you refer to?

The Christian Bible... The prophecies are pretty precise...
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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3/28/2014 4:53:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hmmm . . . faith by evidence. What a novel idea! Then the people who think God is tyrannical would really have something to make their point, and no one would need to be good simply because it's right thing to do. They'd all have a reason. Bye-bye free choice.
Sswdwm
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3/28/2014 4:58:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:52:55 PM, the_streetsurfer wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:52:06 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:51:15 PM, the_streetsurfer wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:29:23 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Verifiable miracles and precise prophecies are probably the right way to go. In Islam they claim the moon split into two, this would work pretty well,

Precise prophecies? Have you ever read the Bible?!

Yup, which do you refer to?

The Christian Bible... The prophecies are pretty precise...

All the ones I have seen suffer multiple issues.

Too vague
Too mundane (there will be war next year!)
Self fulfilling
Written during/after the fulfilment
Failed prophecies

... Do you have a particular one in mind?
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Sswdwm
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3/28/2014 4:59:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:53:42 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hmmm . . . faith by evidence. What a novel idea! Then the people who think God is tyrannical would really have something to make their point, and no one would need to be good simply because it's right thing to do. They'd all have a reason. Bye-bye free choice.

So God demands he be accepted on bad/non existent evidence? What kind of god is that?
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SNP1
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3/28/2014 5:18:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Verifiable, testable, observable, repeatable, empirical evidence. You would also need to prove a specific God so, precise, not self-fulfilling or mundane, prophecies with evidence to support that the prophecies both happened and happened according to the original prediction.
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the_streetsurfer
Posts: 15
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3/28/2014 5:23:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:58:27 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:52:55 PM, the_streetsurfer wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:52:06 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:51:15 PM, the_streetsurfer wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:29:23 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Verifiable miracles and precise prophecies are probably the right way to go. In Islam they claim the moon split into two, this would work pretty well,

Precise prophecies? Have you ever read the Bible?!

Yup, which do you refer to?

The Christian Bible... The prophecies are pretty precise...

All the ones I have seen suffer multiple issues.

Too vague
Too mundane (there will be war next year!)
Self fulfilling
Written during/after the fulfilment
Failed prophecies

... Do you have a particular one in mind?

The birth of Jesus:

Jesus would be born in Bethlehem:
Micah 5:2:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans[a] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times."
Fullfilled:
Matthew 2:1: After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi[a] from the east came to Jerusalem.

This is the most important one to me. Mary and Joseph lived in Nazareth, which was quite a ways from Bethlehem. The only reason why they went to Bethlehem is because of Herod's decree. Very unlikely.

Here is the full page for you to read:
http://christianity.about.com...

This seems very, very precise to me.
Iredia
Posts: 1,608
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3/28/2014 5:57:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:29:23 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Verifiable miracles and precise prophecies are probably the right way to go. In Islam they claim the moon split into two, this would work pretty well,

IOW you want God to play sky daddy for you to believe in him. Interesting. Please respond on our debate, maybe I will make a good case.
Porn babes be distracting me. Dudes be stealing me stuff. I'm all about the cash from now. I'm not playing Jesus anymore.
Illegalcombatant
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3/28/2014 7:11:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Too vague, what are you calling God ?

Cause what is evidence for one concept of God wouldn't be for another.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Idealist
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3/28/2014 8:35:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:59:41 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:53:42 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hmmm . . . faith by evidence. What a novel idea! Then the people who think God is tyrannical would really have something to make their point, and no one would need to be good simply because it's right thing to do. They'd all have a reason. Bye-bye free choice.

So God demands he be accepted on bad/non existent evidence? What kind of god is that?

No, God creates a system where people decide their own fate, through free choice, by choosing to put other people on the same level as themselves, despite what those other people may themselves accept or believe. I don't think many people would call altruism a bad thing. All they have to decide is whether they believe in it or not. And if you are thinking of me as a Christian, remember that Christ said that all the rules that ever existed could be reduced to the single rule of universal love. Again, not a bad thing to aim for while living one's life.
Sswdwm
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3/28/2014 8:43:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 8:35:18 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:59:41 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:53:42 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hmmm . . . faith by evidence. What a novel idea! Then the people who think God is tyrannical would really have something to make their point, and no one would need to be good simply because it's right thing to do. They'd all have a reason. Bye-bye free choice.

So God demands he be accepted on bad/non existent evidence? What kind of god is that?

No, God creates a system where people decide their own fate, through free choice, by choosing to put other people on the same level as themselves, despite what those other people may themselves accept or believe. I don't think many people would call altruism a bad thing. All they have to decide is whether they believe in it or not. And if you are thinking of me as a Christian, remember that Christ said that all the rules that ever existed could be reduced to the single rule of universal love. Again, not a bad thing to aim for while living one's life.

And the free choice is to believe or to not believe based on bad/non existent evidence... Lol
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Juan_Pablo
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3/28/2014 8:50:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If there is an intelligent God out there, who created humankind as companionship, doesn't it follow that this God would want to make himself known to his humans . . . through means of communication?

The answer to this question is of course!

Does evidence exist showing that God communicates to humankind, with clarity and on a daily basis?

My answer to this question is, again, of course!

However . . . there could be issues with clarity . . . that possibility should not be removed from our minds. If God exist, is intelligent, and created humankind for companion, then it follows that this God should be capable of communicating with human (to satisfy its desire for companionship).

God does communicate with us [humans] on a daily basis - and he does this through our experiences and through coincidences I have found.
Juan_Pablo
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3/28/2014 8:53:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If an intelligent God exist, one that created humankind for friendship, then this God must be able to communicate with humans to satisfy that purpose of friendship.

Yes . . . there is evidence that God exist. He communicates with us on a daily basis, all we have to do is look carefully for blatant indicators to determine he is communicating with us.
Juan_Pablo
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3/28/2014 8:58:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
However, if this thinking is right we must also consider what happens when humans go against to primary will of God - which is friendship.

What does God do to humans that disregard his purpose of friendship and who go about life destroying society and the planet?

Well, if God created intelligent life to serve as company for him, then it follows that God would probably disapprove of intelligent life that goes out of its way to injure that company . . . it follows then that God would probably also be a devil if he had to be.
Juan_Pablo
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3/28/2014 9:20:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 8:35:18 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:59:41 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:53:42 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hmmm . . . faith by evidence. What a novel idea! Then the people who think God is tyrannical would really have something to make their point, and no one would need to be good simply because it's right thing to do. They'd all have a reason. Bye-bye free choice.

So God demands he be accepted on bad/non existent evidence? What kind of god is that?

No, God creates a system where people decide their own fate, through free choice, by choosing to put other people on the same level as themselves, despite what those other people may themselves accept or believe. I don't think many people would call altruism a bad thing. All they have to decide is whether they believe in it or not. And if you are thinking of me as a Christian, remember that Christ said that all the rules that ever existed could be reduced to the single rule of universal love. Again, not a bad thing to aim for while living one's life.

Yeah. This is also called the "golden rule". "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Jesus also explained what we should expect if we don't follow the golden rule . . . and that just as much applies to our lives.

If we don't go out of our way to treat others kindly, fairly, and justly (something which I admit I have a hard time doing frequently), we shouldn't expect to be treated kindly, fairly, and justly either.

The more people that follow the golden rule in the world, the better it's going to be for everyone; the less people that follow it, expect hell on Earth.

It comes down to that.
Idealist
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3/28/2014 10:10:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 8:43:11 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 8:35:18 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:59:41 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:53:42 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hmmm . . . faith by evidence. What a novel idea! Then the people who think God is tyrannical would really have something to make their point, and no one would need to be good simply because it's right thing to do. They'd all have a reason. Bye-bye free choice.

So God demands he be accepted on bad/non existent evidence? What kind of god is that?

No, God creates a system where people decide their own fate, through free choice, by choosing to put other people on the same level as themselves, despite what those other people may themselves accept or believe. I don't think many people would call altruism a bad thing. All they have to decide is whether they believe in it or not. And if you are thinking of me as a Christian, remember that Christ said that all the rules that ever existed could be reduced to the single rule of universal love. Again, not a bad thing to aim for while living one's life.

And the free choice is to believe or to not believe based on bad/non existent evidence... Lol

It's not "bad" or "non-existent." It's seen or not seen. I saw Stephen Hawking in a video the other day saying that the sheer number of planets in the universe made it a certainty that there was "other life out there." Yet even a moderately decent mathematician can tell you that, lacking the knowledge of how likely life was to occur on even one planet, there is no way to calculate if it's likely somewhere else in the universe, let alone certain. Yet Stephen Hawking sees a certainty. All I do is to acknowledge a belief. I'll be the first to change my mind if and when I feel that the balance of weight has shifted sufficiently. Why? Because all I really want is the truth, no matter how likely it is.
Idealist
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3/28/2014 10:22:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 9:20:00 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/28/2014 8:35:18 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:59:41 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:53:42 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hmmm . . . faith by evidence. What a novel idea! Then the people who think God is tyrannical would really have something to make their point, and no one would need to be good simply because it's right thing to do. They'd all have a reason. Bye-bye free choice.

So God demands he be accepted on bad/non existent evidence? What kind of god is that?

No, God creates a system where people decide their own fate, through free choice, by choosing to put other people on the same level as themselves, despite what those other people may themselves accept or believe. I don't think many people would call altruism a bad thing. All they have to decide is whether they believe in it or not. And if you are thinking of me as a Christian, remember that Christ said that all the rules that ever existed could be reduced to the single rule of universal love. Again, not a bad thing to aim for while living one's life.

Yeah. This is also called the "golden rule". "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Jesus also explained what we should expect if we don't follow the golden rule . . . and that just as much applies to our lives.

You are basing what you say on the Bible. I'm not. I see the Bible as the ancient writings of a particular civilization, but I see the "Golden Rule" as something that makes sense, and that would likely work if given a chance.

If we don't go out of our way to treat others kindly, fairly, and justly (something which I admit I have a hard time doing frequently), we shouldn't expect to be treated kindly, fairly, and justly either.

Even if we do go out of our way to be nice we shouldn't expect it from others. If that's your only motivation then it's selfish, and almost certain to break down somewhere along the line, because there will always be a "bad apple." The trick would be to try to see the larger picture, of which you are but a pixel.

The more people that follow the golden rule in the world, the better it's going to be for everyone; the less people that follow it, expect hell on Earth.

It comes down to that.

Yeah, I suppose that in the end it does. Almost every form of government ever invented, including monarchy, would succeed very well if everyone actually lived by the "Golden Rule." On the other hand, even the best governments ever invented, such as democracies and republics, are bound to fail if too many people ignore it. It's something which none of us can deny, as much as we try. So we try to trick a thousand Good Samaritans into honoring the rule so we can be the small percent of bad which it is able to absorb.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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3/28/2014 11:03:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 10:22:01 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 9:20:00 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/28/2014 8:35:18 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:59:41 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:53:42 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hmmm . . . faith by evidence. What a novel idea! Then the people who think God is tyrannical would really have something to make their point, and no one would need to be good simply because it's right thing to do. They'd all have a reason. Bye-bye free choice.

So God demands he be accepted on bad/non existent evidence? What kind of god is that?

No, God creates a system where people decide their own fate, through free choice, by choosing to put other people on the same level as themselves, despite what those other people may themselves accept or believe. I don't think many people would call altruism a bad thing. All they have to decide is whether they believe in it or not. And if you are thinking of me as a Christian, remember that Christ said that all the rules that ever existed could be reduced to the single rule of universal love. Again, not a bad thing to aim for while living one's life.

Yeah. This is also called the "golden rule". "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Jesus also explained what we should expect if we don't follow the golden rule . . . and that just as much applies to our lives.

You are basing what you say on the Bible. I'm not. I see the Bible as the ancient writings of a particular civilization, but I see the "Golden Rule" as something that makes sense, and that would likely work if given a chance.

If we don't go out of our way to treat others kindly, fairly, and justly (something which I admit I have a hard time doing frequently), we shouldn't expect to be treated kindly, fairly, and justly either.

Even if we do go out of our way to be nice we shouldn't expect it from others. If that's your only motivation then it's selfish, and almost certain to break down somewhere along the line, because there will always be a "bad apple." The trick would be to try to see the larger picture, of which you are but a pixel.

I absolutely agree with you. The golden rule should still be followed even in cases where others around you aren't following it. However, it's totally fair to call these people bad apples and to let them know what effects their actions are having in the world. That's important, too.

The more people that follow the golden rule in the world, the better it's going to be for everyone; the less people that follow it, expect hell on Earth.

It comes down to that.

Yeah, I suppose that in the end it does. Almost every form of government ever invented, including monarchy, would succeed very well if everyone actually lived by the "Golden Rule." On the other hand, even the best governments ever invented, such as democracies and republics, are bound to fail if too many people ignore it. It's something which none of us can deny, as much as we try. So we try to trick a thousand Good Samaritans into honoring the rule so we can be the small percent of bad which it is able to absorb.

I agee with you here. The "golden rule" is at the heart of any civilized, functioning society. Whenever it is not followed, society will necessary break down.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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3/28/2014 11:56:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 11:03:23 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/28/2014 10:22:01 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 9:20:00 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/28/2014 8:35:18 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:59:41 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:53:42 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hmmm . . . faith by evidence. What a novel idea! Then the people who think God is tyrannical would really have something to make their point, and no one would need to be good simply because it's right thing to do. They'd all have a reason. Bye-bye free choice.

So God demands he be accepted on bad/non existent evidence? What kind of god is that?

No, God creates a system where people decide their own fate, through free choice, by choosing to put other people on the same level as themselves, despite what those other people may themselves accept or believe. I don't think many people would call altruism a bad thing. All they have to decide is whether they believe in it or not. And if you are thinking of me as a Christian, remember that Christ said that all the rules that ever existed could be reduced to the single rule of universal love. Again, not a bad thing to aim for while living one's life.

Yeah. This is also called the "golden rule". "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Jesus also explained what we should expect if we don't follow the golden rule . . . and that just as much applies to our lives.

You are basing what you say on the Bible. I'm not. I see the Bible as the ancient writings of a particular civilization, but I see the "Golden Rule" as something that makes sense, and that would likely work if given a chance.

If we don't go out of our way to treat others kindly, fairly, and justly (something which I admit I have a hard time doing frequently), we shouldn't expect to be treated kindly, fairly, and justly either.

Even if we do go out of our way to be nice we shouldn't expect it from others. If that's your only motivation then it's selfish, and almost certain to break down somewhere along the line, because there will always be a "bad apple." The trick would be to try to see the larger picture, of which you are but a pixel.

I absolutely agree with you. The golden rule should still be followed even in cases where others around you aren't following it. However, it's totally fair to call these people bad apples and to let them know what effects their actions are having in the world. That's important, too.

The more people that follow the golden rule in the world, the better it's going to be for everyone; the less people that follow it, expect hell on Earth.

It comes down to that.

Yeah, I suppose that in the end it does. Almost every form of government ever invented, including monarchy, would succeed very well if everyone actually lived by the "Golden Rule." On the other hand, even the best governments ever invented, such as democracies and republics, are bound to fail if too many people ignore it. It's something which none of us can deny, as much as we try. So we try to trick a thousand Good Samaritans into honoring the rule so we can be the small percent of bad which it is able to absorb.

I agee with you here. The "golden rule" is at the heart of any civilized, functioning society. Whenever it is not followed, society will necessary break down.

Isn't it both strange and wonderful how, when you strip-away all the unnecessary "dressings" we are all basically just people inside with the desire to be loved for who we are?
Magic8000
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3/28/2014 11:57:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Does it matter if atheists cannot come up with a standard of evidence? If god exists, he knows what would be convincing.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.

"So Magic8000 believes Einstein was a proctologist who was persuaded by the Government and Hitler to fabricate the Theory of Relativity"- GWL-CPA
Juan_Pablo
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3/29/2014 12:13:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 11:56:06 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 11:03:23 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/28/2014 10:22:01 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 9:20:00 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/28/2014 8:35:18 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:59:41 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:53:42 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hmmm . . . faith by evidence. What a novel idea! Then the people who think God is tyrannical would really have something to make their point, and no one would need to be good simply because it's right thing to do. They'd all have a reason. Bye-bye free choice.

So God demands he be accepted on bad/non existent evidence? What kind of god is that?

No, God creates a system where people decide their own fate, through free choice, by choosing to put other people on the same level as themselves, despite what those other people may themselves accept or believe. I don't think many people would call altruism a bad thing. All they have to decide is whether they believe in it or not. And if you are thinking of me as a Christian, remember that Christ said that all the rules that ever existed could be reduced to the single rule of universal love. Again, not a bad thing to aim for while living one's life.

Yeah. This is also called the "golden rule". "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Jesus also explained what we should expect if we don't follow the golden rule . . . and that just as much applies to our lives.

You are basing what you say on the Bible. I'm not. I see the Bible as the ancient writings of a particular civilization, but I see the "Golden Rule" as something that makes sense, and that would likely work if given a chance.

If we don't go out of our way to treat others kindly, fairly, and justly (something which I admit I have a hard time doing frequently), we shouldn't expect to be treated kindly, fairly, and justly either.

Even if we do go out of our way to be nice we shouldn't expect it from others. If that's your only motivation then it's selfish, and almost certain to break down somewhere along the line, because there will always be a "bad apple." The trick would be to try to see the larger picture, of which you are but a pixel.

I absolutely agree with you. The golden rule should still be followed even in cases where others around you aren't following it. However, it's totally fair to call these people bad apples and to let them know what effects their actions are having in the world. That's important, too.

The more people that follow the golden rule in the world, the better it's going to be for everyone; the less people that follow it, expect hell on Earth.

It comes down to that.

Yeah, I suppose that in the end it does. Almost every form of government ever invented, including monarchy, would succeed very well if everyone actually lived by the "Golden Rule." On the other hand, even the best governments ever invented, such as democracies and republics, are bound to fail if too many people ignore it. It's something which none of us can deny, as much as we try. So we try to trick a thousand Good Samaritans into honoring the rule so we can be the small percent of bad which it is able to absorb.

I agee with you here. The "golden rule" is at the heart of any civilized, functioning society. Whenever it is not followed, society will necessary break down.

Isn't it both strange and wonderful how, when you strip-away all the unnecessary "dressings" we are all basically just people inside with the desire to be loved for who we are?

This is very true, idealist. And when people know they are not being loved society falls apart. This is also the reason why I believe that compassionate, kind, and equal societies are the only kind that can really proceed in the long run. All the others inevitably fail because of their own internal cancers.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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3/29/2014 12:30:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 12:13:42 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/28/2014 11:56:06 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 11:03:23 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/28/2014 10:22:01 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 9:20:00 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 3/28/2014 8:35:18 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:59:41 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:53:42 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hmmm . . . faith by evidence. What a novel idea! Then the people who think God is tyrannical would really have something to make their point, and no one would need to be good simply because it's right thing to do. They'd all have a reason. Bye-bye free choice.

So God demands he be accepted on bad/non existent evidence? What kind of god is that?

No, God creates a system where people decide their own fate, through free choice, by choosing to put other people on the same level as themselves, despite what those other people may themselves accept or believe. I don't think many people would call altruism a bad thing. All they have to decide is whether they believe in it or not. And if you are thinking of me as a Christian, remember that Christ said that all the rules that ever existed could be reduced to the single rule of universal love. Again, not a bad thing to aim for while living one's life.

Yeah. This is also called the "golden rule". "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Jesus also explained what we should expect if we don't follow the golden rule . . . and that just as much applies to our lives.

You are basing what you say on the Bible. I'm not. I see the Bible as the ancient writings of a particular civilization, but I see the "Golden Rule" as something that makes sense, and that would likely work if given a chance.

If we don't go out of our way to treat others kindly, fairly, and justly (something which I admit I have a hard time doing frequently), we shouldn't expect to be treated kindly, fairly, and justly either.

Even if we do go out of our way to be nice we shouldn't expect it from others. If that's your only motivation then it's selfish, and almost certain to break down somewhere along the line, because there will always be a "bad apple." The trick would be to try to see the larger picture, of which you are but a pixel.

I absolutely agree with you. The golden rule should still be followed even in cases where others around you aren't following it. However, it's totally fair to call these people bad apples and to let them know what effects their actions are having in the world. That's important, too.

The more people that follow the golden rule in the world, the better it's going to be for everyone; the less people that follow it, expect hell on Earth.

It comes down to that.

Yeah, I suppose that in the end it does. Almost every form of government ever invented, including monarchy, would succeed very well if everyone actually lived by the "Golden Rule." On the other hand, even the best governments ever invented, such as democracies and republics, are bound to fail if too many people ignore it. It's something which none of us can deny, as much as we try. So we try to trick a thousand Good Samaritans into honoring the rule so we can be the small percent of bad which it is able to absorb.

I agee with you here. The "golden rule" is at the heart of any civilized, functioning society. Whenever it is not followed, society will necessary break down.

Isn't it both strange and wonderful how, when you strip-away all the unnecessary "dressings" we are all basically just people inside with the desire to be loved for who we are?

This is very true, idealist. And when people know they are not being loved society falls apart. This is also the reason why I believe that compassionate, kind, and equal societies are the only kind that can really proceed in the long run. All the others inevitably fail because of their own internal cancers.

On that point, my friend, there is no debate. :)
Jingram994
Posts: 211
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3/29/2014 1:20:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Hard, observable, repeatable, evidence of this God directly interacting with the world or large numbers of people in it, that is publicly available for viewing and/or critique. Accurate, precise prophecies which could not even conceptually have been the result of anything other than direct divine insight. An actual *good* argument for the existence of God in reality (not merely conceptually) that is not subject to logical fallacies, inconsistencies or double-standards.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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3/29/2014 1:25:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?
The kind of proofs only an almighty, omnipotent etc. Supernatural god knows what would convince me!
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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3/29/2014 6:54:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/28/2014 4:52:55 PM, the_streetsurfer wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:52:06 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:51:15 PM, the_streetsurfer wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:29:23 PM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 3/28/2014 4:17:25 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
to make you believe in God?

Verifiable miracles and precise prophecies are probably the right way to go. In Islam they claim the moon split into two, this would work pretty well,

Precise prophecies? Have you ever read the Bible?!

Yup, which do you refer to?

The Christian Bible... The prophecies are pretty precise...

The only Christian part of the Bible is the new testament that was written by antichrists ( Christians ) who stole written and spoken words by the saints of God and mixed in their religious ideas with them to thoroughly confuse anyone from understanding the prophecies. If you look at the prophecies from a Christian perspective who is looking for their false deity "Jesus" in them, you will be totally deceived of the Truth.