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To Christians who believe..

GOP
Posts: 453
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3/30/2014 5:02:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
that salvation can be lost:

If this is true, then wouldn't that mean you yourselves don't know if you're going to heaven or hell in the ultimate sense?

Let's say somebody got saved one day. What if he loses his salvation (assuming that conditional security is true) and then dies?
So, if you're a Christian who believes that salvation can be lost, then couldn't it also mean that you could be that one person who loses it the next day and then dies? So, in the ultimate sense, wouldn't it mean that you yourself don't know if you're going to heaven or hell? Sure, if you were to die right now, then you would go to heaven, but you don't know if you're going to die in unbelief later on.

So, from this perspective, doesn't committing suicide (as a believer) look like a logical choice (because you may very well become an unbeliever in the future, get hardened in your heart beyond hope, and then die in unbelief)?

If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,372
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3/30/2014 8:02:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/30/2014 5:02:06 AM, GOP wrote:
that salvation can be lost:

If this is true, then wouldn't that mean you yourselves don't know if you're going to heaven or hell in the ultimate sense?

Let's say somebody got saved one day. What if he loses his salvation (assuming that conditional security is true) and then dies?
So, if you're a Christian who believes that salvation can be lost, then couldn't it also mean that you could be that one person who loses it the next day and then dies? So, in the ultimate sense, wouldn't it mean that you yourself don't know if you're going to heaven or hell? Sure, if you were to die right now, then you would go to heaven, but you don't know if you're going to die in unbelief later on.

So, from this perspective, doesn't committing suicide (as a believer) look like a logical choice (because you may very well become an unbeliever in the future, get hardened in your heart beyond hope, and then die in unbelief)?

If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me.
I'm not one who adheres to the conditional security doctrine, so this thread is not really addressed to me, but yes, this view does have it's problems.

To answer the question, can a born gain believer lose their salvation?, I would personally say the answer to that is yes.........and no.

The question really needs to be more specific.

Can God decide to change His mind at any point and remove the status of a believer as being saved? What about someone already in Heaven? Can God decide to remove them from their Heavenly residency? In other words, is their some sort of law like gravity that demands that what goes up has to come down, that would prohibit God from removing someone's salvation even if God wanted to? And I don't see any reason to think that God couldn't change His mind in regards to the status of a believer if He so chose to, and remove a person's status of being saved. It's sort of like the question can God lie? God cannot lie in the sense that it would violate His character. It's not that there's some force that would prevent God from being able to give false information if He chose to. So in that sense....yes, a believer could lose their salvation, if there is a change in God's character.

That being said, I think the question is really; will God allow a believer to lose their salvation? To which I would say....no. There are a number of scriptures I would say that suggest that God sustains that status of a saved individual for that individual.

I've heard a number of suggestions that a believer can lose their salvation, and the reasons seem to vary. The most common one would suggest that it's actually quite difficult, as it would be highly unlikely, that a believer makes a choice at some point that they basically don't want to go to Heaven. And that's pretty unlikely, so it presents the idea of losing one's salvation as something not to worry much about. And on the other spectrum, I've heard it expressed just as you've stated, that we ultimately don't know if we will be that one that God says "I never knew you" to. And that view appears rather contradictory, because the apostle indicated that we can know.

Some have suggested that Judas Iscariot was a saved person who lost his salvation. I don't see any reason to think that he ever was. That would have to be proven, and I would say it hasn't been proven to be the case.