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The Atheist's Frustration

RoderickSpode
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4/1/2014 10:21:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Not only do Christians know that God is good, I would say that it's a universal concept that all men know. Deep down even an atheist knows even from the standpoint that if God exists, He must be good. From the most (for lack of a better term) primitive standpoint, one looks at nature/creation, and concludes that the Creator (God) must be good. Of course some have somehow interpreted science as being God, attempting to remove the personality trait of God.

One of the frustrations is that the book that they right off as (not for a lack of a better word) primitive is the most popular book in the world. And there's probably one sitting on their shelf. And what's frustrating is that God as represented in this book has His own personality, concept of morality, that we can't adjust to our preference. It doesn't change. We can't mold God into contemporary thinking. And so consequently, arguments made by atheists almost inevitably target God's (or the God of the Bible) character.....and yes, as is noticed, to the point of obsession (although expect some denial of this). This supposed fictional character becomes a meanie of sorts. So this ironic scenario plays out where the argument starts out as God not existing (or no evidence).....to God (of the Bible) is a bully, is narcissistic, is a megalomaniac, etc.

There's also a false notion that Christianity only thrives due to aggressive evangelizing (or proselytizing). And this is simply not true. And as long as we live in a free society, this will continue to not be true. It will take a totalitarian type system to resort to attempted force just like we've seen (and see today) in anti-theistic systems and regimes. The idea is that through secular education (indoctrination) somehow magically without force, religion will just sort of phase out.

One of the paradoxes an atheist must face (and a possible avenue of frustration) is why would homosexual individuals even wish to bother with becoming clergymen, forming gay churches, etc.? Religion/Christianity is the bad guy. Secular Humanism/Atheism is the knight in shining armor coming to their rescue. Why do they even bother associating at all with an institution called the Church? Aside from the evidence that some clergymen in general use the position of a minister to promote secularism, for the most part I would say it goes right back to the understanding that God is good. But the struggle, which is not relegated to homosexuals is that yes, God is good, but God doesn't conform to our personal concepts of morality. And there are those in ministry who were at one time homosexuals, who realized that homosexuality is not their identity. They are not a minority. They are just like everyone else who has to deal with the issue of sin. And I don't mean to diminish their struggle. I believe many of them will be highly rewarded in Heaven for following Christ while in the midst of their struggle.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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4/1/2014 10:26:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Generally speaking, I find the following to be a very useful rule to follow:

If your argument requires that you tell other people what they think and ignore what they tell you they think, it is a terrible argument.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,372
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4/1/2014 10:34:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:26:51 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
Generally speaking, I find the following to be a very useful rule to follow:

If your argument requires that you tell other people what they think and ignore what they tell you they think, it is a terrible argument.
Perhaps I should make clear, this doesn't address all atheists. Not all atheists deal with these types of frustrations, any religion related frustration at all. These are however general observations of the more activist type of atheism. Does that help?
Graincruncher
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4/1/2014 10:47:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
And, for that matter, contradicts the very first line of your opening post. Otherwise I think you're really onto a winner here.
Graincruncher
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4/1/2014 10:52:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:50:49 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
All people know there is a God. Some just refuse to accept it because they have daddy issues.

Excellent example.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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4/1/2014 10:54:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:52:12 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:50:49 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
All people know there is a God. Some just refuse to accept it because they have daddy issues.

Excellent example.

Excellent example of what exactly.
bulproof
Posts: 25,221
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4/1/2014 10:59:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:50:49 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
All people know there is a God. Some just refuse to accept it because they have daddy issues.

And that god is Shiva.

Everybody knows that. They also know that every other god is just man made.

Well done grasshopper.

Let go of the orange and you will release your hand from the jar.
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Graincruncher
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4/1/2014 11:01:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:54:20 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:52:12 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:50:49 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
All people know there is a God. Some just refuse to accept it because they have daddy issues.

Excellent example.

Excellent example of what exactly.

Don't let that worry you too much, just be content that you gave an excellent example of something.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,372
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4/1/2014 11:04:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:47:56 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
And, for that matter, contradicts the very first line of your opening post. Otherwise I think you're really onto a winner here.
Sure, I'll bite. How does that contradict the very first line of my opening post?
Graincruncher
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4/1/2014 11:07:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 11:04:53 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:47:56 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
And, for that matter, contradicts the very first line of your opening post. Otherwise I think you're really onto a winner here.
Sure, I'll bite. How does that contradict the very first line of my opening post?

*facepalm*

Arguing I'm happy with. Explaining and learning I enjoy. I am not, however, doing people's basic thinking for them.
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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4/1/2014 11:13:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:21:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Not only do Christians know that God is good,

Well, I'll allow that you believe that. And, for the sake of argument, I'll allow that you are justified in that belief. But I don't think it's true, so I don't think it counts as knowledge.

I would say that it's a universal concept that all men know.

Since not all men believe it, not all mean can know it.

Deep down even an atheist knows even from the standpoint that if God exists, He must be good.

Which is not the same thing as saying God is good. You've established a conditional and that condition doesn't exist in the mind of the atheist. It says nothing of God if he doesn't exist.

And that's giving the generous assumption that the atheist accepts the conditional. I certainly don't.

From the most (for lack of a better term) primitive standpoint, one looks at nature/creation, and concludes that the Creator (God) must be good.

I don't. Nature seems largely neutral and indifferent to the human concepts of good, evil, or morality. If there is some intelligence behind it, it's most certainly antagonistic toward life in general, given the structure and composition of the universe.

Of course some have somehow interpreted science as being God, attempting to remove the personality trait of God.

I'm not sure what kind of theists you are talking about here, but I thought this was a discussion about atheists, who don't believe in a god or gods.

One of the frustrations is that the book that they right off as (not for a lack of a better word) primitive is the most popular book in the world.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to anything.

And there's probably one sitting on their shelf.

Nope.

And what's frustrating is that God as represented in this book has His own personality, concept of morality, that we can't adjust to our preference.

I'm not sure why that would be frustrating to atheists. All fictional characters of all fictional books have their own personality and such. In fact, that's one of the joys of reading books, is to immerse yourself in a world full of other characters that appear to have their own life.

However, I see this would be immensely frustrating to Christians, who believe this character to be real, but disagree on the nature of that personality. Some believe him to be all forgiving and all loving, others believe him to be wrathful and vengeful. It must be very difficult. I don't envy you.

It doesn't change. We can't mold God into contemporary thinking.

The success of a myriad of Christian denominations would contradict that statement. You Christians have no problems molding God to fit your way of thinking when it suits your ends.

And so consequently, arguments made by atheists almost inevitably target God's (or the God of the Bible) character.....and yes, as is noticed, to the point of obsession (although expect some denial of this). This supposed fictional character becomes a meanie of sorts. So this ironic scenario plays out where the argument starts out as God not existing (or no evidence).....to God (of the Bible) is a bully, is narcissistic, is a megalomaniac, etc.

It makes sense that atheists would make such arguments as the depiction of God in the Bible is almost certainly at odds with how many contemporary Christians depict him in their rhetoric.

There's also a false notion that Christianity only thrives due to aggressive evangelizing (or proselytizing). And this is simply not true. And as long as we live in a free society, this will continue to not be true. It will take a totalitarian type system to resort to attempted force just like we've seen (and see today) in anti-theistic systems and regimes. The idea is that through secular education (indoctrination) somehow magically without force, religion will just sort of phase out.

One of the paradoxes an atheist must face (and a possible avenue of frustration) is why would homosexual individuals even wish to bother with becoming clergymen, forming gay churches, etc.? Religion/Christianity is the bad guy.

Because not everyone believes that Christian doctrine is inherently homophobic.

Secular Humanism/Atheism is the knight in shining armor coming to their rescue. Why do they even bother associating at all with an institution called the Church?

I don't know. Ask them?

Aside from the evidence that some clergymen in general use the position of a minister to promote secularism, for the most part I would say it goes right back to the understanding that God is good.

No, it speaks to their character as humans, not God's.

But the struggle, which is not relegated to homosexuals is that yes, God is good, but God doesn't conform to our personal concepts of morality.

When you say "God is good" you are making a judgement based upon our concept of morality. You can't use our morality to judge God as good then tell others they can't use our concept of morality to judge God as bad.

And there are those in ministry who were at one time homosexuals, who realized that homosexuality is not their identity. They are not a minority. They are just like everyone else who has to deal with the issue of sin. And I don't mean to diminish their struggle. I believe many of them will be highly rewarded in Heaven for following Christ while in the midst of their struggle.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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4/1/2014 11:26:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:21:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Not only do Christians know that God is good, I would say that it's a universal concept that all men know. Deep down even an atheist knows even from the standpoint that if God exists, He must be good.

Really? Look at all the crap that goes on in the world? Look at all the crap God was responsible for in the Bible? If a God does exist then he/she is certainly not good.

From the most (for lack of a better term) primitive standpoint, one looks at nature/creation, and concludes that the Creator (God) must be good. Of course some have somehow interpreted science as being God, attempting to remove the personality trait of God.

How has science been interpreted as God? Are you the type that think atheists secretly believe in God?

One of the frustrations is that the book that they right off as (not for a lack of a better word) primitive is the most popular book in the world.

Ad populum much? It is also not the most popular in the way that it is liked, it is the book that has been read the most in the world.

And there's probably one sitting on their shelf.

First, why do you assume that? Second, maybe it is there so can find more contradictions in it? You need to know it is there and why.

And what's frustrating is that God as represented in this book has His own personality, concept of morality, that we can't adjust to our preference. It doesn't change.

God changes his mind quite a bit in the Bible, so that point is moot.

We can't mold God into contemporary thinking. And so consequently, arguments made by atheists almost inevitably target God's (or the God of the Bible) character.....

Some arguments do, but not all, not even most.

and yes, as is noticed, to the point of obsession (although expect some denial of this). This supposed fictional character becomes a meanie of sorts.

Can you elaborate on this point?

So this ironic scenario plays out where the argument starts out as God not existing (or no evidence).....to God (of the Bible) is a bully, is narcissistic, is a megalomaniac, etc.

Well, fictional characters can have attributes assigned to them. I can point out that Yoda is a wise, powerful being, he does not have to be real for that. Besides, you miss the point of a hypothetical. If God does exist then those attributes are said to be assigned to him/her.

There's also a false notion that Christianity only thrives due to aggressive evangelizing (or proselytizing). And this is simply not true. And as long as we live in a free society, this will continue to not be true.

That is not the only reason, people brainwash their kids as well. At the point in time where you can convince your child that Santa is real you also tell them God is. Eventually a kid can just stay up and see that Santa is not real, but God is supposedly not observable, making the brainwashing/indoctrination of the children worse.

It will take a totalitarian type system to resort to attempted force just like we've seen (and see today) in anti-theistic systems and regimes. The idea is that through secular education (indoctrination) somehow magically without force, religion will just sort of phase out.

Secular education is not about getting rid of religion, it is about having an education without bringing religion into it. Science does not have to do with religion, so why bring it in? It is about having a better education without discriminating agaisnt people of different religions.

One of the paradoxes an atheist must face (and a possible avenue of frustration) is why would homosexual individuals even wish to bother with becoming clergymen, forming gay churches, etc.?

Why do atheists have to face this at all?

Religion/Christianity is the bad guy. Secular Humanism/Atheism is the knight in shining armor coming to their rescue. Why do they even bother associating at all with an institution called the Church? Aside from the evidence that some clergymen in general use the position of a minister to promote secularism, for the most part I would say it goes right back to the understanding that God is good.

And why is God "good"?

But the struggle, which is not relegated to homosexuals is that yes, God is good,

Can you prove that God is good? Can you? You must also point out what God is even real (if one does exist).

but God doesn't conform to our personal concepts of morality. And there are those in ministry who were at one time homosexuals, who realized that homosexuality is not their identity.

Except that homosexuality is not a choice, it is caused by epi-genetics. Someone who is born bisexual can appear to have a choice, but they will still be bisexual.

They are not a minority. They are just like everyone else who has to deal with the issue of sin. And I don't mean to diminish their struggle. I believe many of them will be highly rewarded in Heaven for following Christ while in the midst of their struggle.

You are saying homosexuality is wrong, okay, let's say that. That means that we also must say that woman are not allowed to talk back to a man. Every discriminatory thing in the Bible that puts woman as lower than man must be enforced. If times can change for woman in the church, why not for homosexuals?
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
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Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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4/1/2014 11:33:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 11:01:02 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:54:20 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:52:12 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:50:49 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
All people know there is a God. Some just refuse to accept it because they have daddy issues.

Excellent example.

Excellent example of what exactly.

Don't let that worry you too much, just be content that you gave an excellent example of something.

I think you realize you made a nonsensical statement but, like most atheists, you regard yourself as a God and therefore you refuse to admit it. It's okay, you can adit to your problems here. Daddy isn't here, after all.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/1/2014 11:34:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:21:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Not only do Christians know that God is good, I would say that it's a universal concept that all men know. Deep down even an atheist knows even from the standpoint that if God exists, He must be good. From the most (for lack of a better term) primitive standpoint, one looks at nature/creation, and concludes that the Creator (God) must be good. Of course some have somehow interpreted science as being God, attempting to remove the personality trait of God.

One of the frustrations is that the book that they right off as (not for a lack of a better word) primitive is the most popular book in the world. And there's probably one sitting on their shelf. And what's frustrating is that God as represented in this book has His own personality, concept of morality, that we can't adjust to our preference. It doesn't change. We can't mold God into contemporary thinking. And so consequently, arguments made by atheists almost inevitably target God's (or the God of the Bible) character.....and yes, as is noticed, to the point of obsession (although expect some denial of this). This supposed fictional character becomes a meanie of sorts. So this ironic scenario plays out where the argument starts out as God not existing (or no evidence).....to God (of the Bible) is a bully, is narcissistic, is a megalomaniac, etc.

There's also a false notion that Christianity only thrives due to aggressive evangelizing (or proselytizing). And this is simply not true. And as long as we live in a free society, this will continue to not be true. It will take a totalitarian type system to resort to attempted force just like we've seen (and see today) in anti-theistic systems and regimes. The idea is that through secular education (indoctrination) somehow magically without force, religion will just sort of phase out.

One of the paradoxes an atheist must face (and a possible avenue of frustration) is why would homosexual individuals even wish to bother with becoming clergymen, forming gay churches, etc.? Religion/Christianity is the bad guy. Secular Humanism/Atheism is the knight in shining armor coming to their rescue. Why do they even bother associating at all with an institution called the Church? Aside from the evidence that some clergymen in general use the position of a minister to promote secularism, for the most part I would say it goes right back to the understanding that God is good. But the struggle, which is not relegated to homosexuals is that yes, God is good, but God doesn't conform to our personal concepts of morality. And there are those in ministry who were at one time homosexuals, who realized that homosexuality is not their identity. They are not a minority. They are just like everyone else who has to deal with the issue of sin. And I don't mean to diminish their struggle. I believe many of them will be highly rewarded in Heaven for following Christ while in the midst of their struggle.

god is good like condoning racism is good.
if you are speaking from the stand point that jesus is the source of good....jesus was ALSO the source of evil.
it is evil to demean a person based on their race...never once did jesus treat another jew with such contempt to the canaanite woman in matthew 15
i don't understand how anything good can come out of that UNLESS tribalism is seen as a good thing...
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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4/1/2014 11:36:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 11:33:39 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:01:02 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:54:20 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:52:12 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:50:49 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
All people know there is a God. Some just refuse to accept it because they have daddy issues.

Excellent example.

Excellent example of what exactly.

Don't let that worry you too much, just be content that you gave an excellent example of something.

I think you realize you made a nonsensical statement but, like most atheists, you regard yourself as a God and therefore you refuse to admit it. It's okay, you can adit to your problems here. Daddy isn't here, after all.

Irony isn't really your strong point, is it? Intentionally, I mean. Unintentionally you're pretty much top of the game.
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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4/1/2014 11:37:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 11:36:34 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:33:39 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:01:02 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:54:20 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:52:12 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:50:49 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
All people know there is a God. Some just refuse to accept it because they have daddy issues.

Excellent example.

Excellent example of what exactly.

Don't let that worry you too much, just be content that you gave an excellent example of something.

I think you realize you made a nonsensical statement but, like most atheists, you regard yourself as a God and therefore you refuse to admit it. It's okay, you can adit to your problems here. Daddy isn't here, after all.

Irony isn't really your strong point, is it? Intentionally, I mean. Unintentionally you're pretty much top of the game.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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4/1/2014 11:39:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 11:37:25 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:36:34 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:33:39 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:01:02 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:54:20 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:52:12 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:50:49 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
All people know there is a God. Some just refuse to accept it because they have daddy issues.

Excellent example.

Excellent example of what exactly.

Don't let that worry you too much, just be content that you gave an excellent example of something.

I think you realize you made a nonsensical statement but, like most atheists, you regard yourself as a God and therefore you refuse to admit it. It's okay, you can adit to your problems here. Daddy isn't here, after all.

Irony isn't really your strong point, is it? Intentionally, I mean. Unintentionally you're pretty much top of the game.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

No no, trust me; it most certainly does. I refer you to post #2 in this thread, if you'd like a clue as to why. Do you think you can rev up the old brain cell for long enough to work it out?
Installgentoo
Posts: 1,420
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4/1/2014 11:42:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 11:39:04 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:37:25 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:36:34 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:33:39 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:01:02 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:54:20 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:52:12 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:50:49 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
All people know there is a God. Some just refuse to accept it because they have daddy issues.

Excellent example.

Excellent example of what exactly.

Don't let that worry you too much, just be content that you gave an excellent example of something.

I think you realize you made a nonsensical statement but, like most atheists, you regard yourself as a God and therefore you refuse to admit it. It's okay, you can adit to your problems here. Daddy isn't here, after all.

Irony isn't really your strong point, is it? Intentionally, I mean. Unintentionally you're pretty much top of the game.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

No no, trust me; it most certainly does. I refer you to post #2 in this thread, if you'd like a clue as to why. Do you think you can rev up the old brain cell for long enough to work it out?

The word irony still doesn't mean what you think it means though, you fvcking moron.

Now please stop wasting mine and everybody else's time, deary.
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,372
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4/1/2014 11:45:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 11:13:45 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:21:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Not only do Christians know that God is good,

Well, I'll allow that you believe that. And, for the sake of argument, I'll allow that you are justified in that belief. But I don't think it's true, so I don't think it counts as knowledge.

That goes deeper into an issue of whether or not a Christian can know that God exists (as I think we briefly discussed in another thread). So the question would become, if a Christian can know that God exists (which would entail knowledge), can they also know that God is good?
I would say that it's a universal concept that all men know.

Since not all men believe it, not all mean can know it.

In my opinion I think the position of an atheist is a stance against belief that isn't necessarily natural. I don't think atheism is a natural tendency. I know that people argue that we all start out as atheists, but infancy is pretty much a mystery to us. Our recollections are fairly vague. But the concept of God presents no difficulty to a child. Don't atheists generally come to a conclusion over a period of time that God doesn't exist?
Deep down even an atheist knows even from the standpoint that if God exists, He must be good.

Which is not the same thing as saying God is good. You've established a conditional and that condition doesn't exist in the mind of the atheist. It says nothing of God if he doesn't exist.

When I'm referring to a possible god from the standpoint of an atheist, I'm not really talking about the God of the Bible. The general theme tends to be that whatever higher power brought us here has at least displayed goodness in the provisional sense.
And that's giving the generous assumption that the atheist accepts the conditional. I certainly don't.

You don't think that there's any possibility that a higher power exists?
From the most (for lack of a better term) primitive standpoint, one looks at nature/creation, and concludes that the Creator (God) must be good.

I don't. Nature seems largely neutral and indifferent to the human concepts of good, evil, or morality. If there is some intelligence behind it, it's most certainly antagonistic toward life in general, given the structure and composition of the universe.

I thought you didn't accept the conditional.
Of course some have somehow interpreted science as being God, attempting to remove the personality trait of God.

I'm not sure what kind of theists you are talking about here, but I thought this was a discussion about atheists, who don't believe in a god or gods.

That's true. I wasn't referring to theists. I was referring to atheists (and/or agnostics like Carl Sagan).
One of the frustrations is that the book that they right off as (not for a lack of a better word) primitive is the most popular book in the world.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to anything.

It's probably also the most outlawed.

And there's probably one sitting on their shelf.

Nope.

I do understand that not everyone has one.
And what's frustrating is that God as represented in this book has His own personality, concept of morality, that we can't adjust to our preference.

I'm not sure why that would be frustrating to atheists. All fictional characters of all fictional books have their own personality and such. In fact, that's one of the joys of reading books, is to immerse yourself in a world full of other characters that appear to have their own life.

I'll give you that to some degree. Basically what I'm referring to is the more activist atheist. There are atheists that are not absorbed by religion/Christianity to where I would agree that they experience no frustration regarding God. However, a good number of atheist activists (in their various forms) were of course former professed Christians. And their occupation, and lifestyle involves disproving God, primarily because of a dissatisfaction of what is contained in the Bible in terms of God's character.
Graincruncher
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4/1/2014 11:46:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 11:42:26 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:39:04 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:37:25 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:36:34 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:33:39 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:01:02 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:54:20 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:52:12 AM, Graincruncher wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:50:49 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
All people know there is a God. Some just refuse to accept it because they have daddy issues.

Excellent example.

Excellent example of what exactly.

Don't let that worry you too much, just be content that you gave an excellent example of something.

I think you realize you made a nonsensical statement but, like most atheists, you regard yourself as a God and therefore you refuse to admit it. It's okay, you can adit to your problems here. Daddy isn't here, after all.

Irony isn't really your strong point, is it? Intentionally, I mean. Unintentionally you're pretty much top of the game.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

No no, trust me; it most certainly does. I refer you to post #2 in this thread, if you'd like a clue as to why. Do you think you can rev up the old brain cell for long enough to work it out?

The word irony still doesn't mean what you think it means though, you fvcking moron.

Now please stop wasting mine and everybody else's time, deary.

It just keeps getting better and better.

Which type of irony do you mean, by the way? You're aware, of course, that there are several different forms. Clearly a man of such erudition could not help but know that. So I'm interested as to which of the ironic forms you think I'm failing to adhere.
TheGreatAndPowerful
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4/1/2014 11:57:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 11:45:10 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:13:45 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:
At 4/1/2014 10:21:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Not only do Christians know that God is good,

Well, I'll allow that you believe that. And, for the sake of argument, I'll allow that you are justified in that belief. But I don't think it's true, so I don't think it counts as knowledge.

That goes deeper into an issue of whether or not a Christian can know that God exists (as I think we briefly discussed in another thread). So the question would become, if a Christian can know that God exists (which would entail knowledge), can they also know that God is good?

When I say it isn't true, I don't mean to say that it isn't true because he doesn't exist. I'm saying it isn't true because God, as described, isn't good, which is irrespective of his existence.

I would say that it's a universal concept that all men know.

Since not all men believe it, not all mean can know it.

In my opinion I think the position of an atheist is a stance against belief that isn't necessarily natural. I don't think atheism is a natural tendency. I know that people argue that we all start out as atheists, but infancy is pretty much a mystery to us. Our recollections are fairly vague. But the concept of God presents no difficulty to a child. Don't atheists generally come to a conclusion over a period of time that God doesn't exist?

Explicitly, yes. Implicitly we are born without a belief system since we lack the cognitive capacity and thus, are atheists. But how we are born is irrelevant to the question at hand which is that all mean, even atheists, know that God is good. To know that requires that they believe that, and they don't.

Deep down even an atheist knows even from the standpoint that if God exists, He must be good.

Which is not the same thing as saying God is good. You've established a conditional and that condition doesn't exist in the mind of the atheist. It says nothing of God if he doesn't exist.

When I'm referring to a possible god from the standpoint of an atheist, I'm not really talking about the God of the Bible. The general theme tends to be that whatever higher power brought us here has at least displayed goodness in the provisional sense.

This doesn't refute what I've said. You've established a condition where the condition isn't true.

And that's giving the generous assumption that the atheist accepts the conditional. I certainly don't.

You don't think that there's any possibility that a higher power exists?

Sure. I also concede there's also the possibility that all of reality exists in an unstable vaccuum that could collapse in the next instant, too. I'm not planning my day around it, though.

From the most (for lack of a better term) primitive standpoint, one looks at nature/creation, and concludes that the Creator (God) must be good.

I don't. Nature seems largely neutral and indifferent to the human concepts of good, evil, or morality. If there is some intelligence behind it, it's most certainly antagonistic toward life in general, given the structure and composition of the universe.

I thought you didn't accept the conditional.

I don't.

Of course some have somehow interpreted science as being God, attempting to remove the personality trait of God.

I'm not sure what kind of theists you are talking about here, but I thought this was a discussion about atheists, who don't believe in a god or gods.

That's true. I wasn't referring to theists. I was referring to atheists (and/or agnostics like Carl Sagan).

If you are referring to a class of people that treat something as being a god, they are, by definition, theists.

One of the frustrations is that the book that they right off as (not for a lack of a better word) primitive is the most popular book in the world.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to anything.

It's probably also the most outlawed.

Also irrelevant.

And there's probably one sitting on their shelf.

Nope.

I do understand that not everyone has one.
And what's frustrating is that God as represented in this book has His own personality, concept of morality, that we can't adjust to our preference.

I'm not sure why that would be frustrating to atheists. All fictional characters of all fictional books have their own personality and such. In fact, that's one of the joys of reading books, is to immerse yourself in a world full of other characters that appear to have their own life.

I'll give you that to some degree. Basically what I'm referring to is the more activist atheist. There are atheists that are not absorbed by religion/Christianity to where I would agree that they experience no frustration regarding God. However, a good number of atheist activists (in their various forms) were of course former professed Christians. And their occupation, and lifestyle involves disproving God, primarily because of a dissatisfaction of what is contained in the Bible in terms of God's character.


Makes sense. The most damning evidence against Christian are the things it presents as evidence in support of itself.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/1/2014 12:11:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The only thing frustrating for this atheist is that the Christians who consider themselves the most informed are running and trying to hide from their lies.

There is no place to hide from the truth. Modern day knowledge and science is going to deconstruct every last remaining bit of religious superstition.

New religions will spring up and they may even claim to be a new interpretation of Christianity but none of them will be capable of standing the test of time.
neutral
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4/1/2014 12:24:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:21:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Not only do Christians know that God is good, I would say that it's a universal concept that all men know. Deep down even an atheist knows even from the standpoint that if God exists, He must be good. From the most (for lack of a better term) primitive standpoint, one looks at nature/creation, and concludes that the Creator (God) must be good. Of course some have somehow interpreted science as being God, attempting to remove the personality trait of God.

One of the frustrations is that the book that they right off as (not for a lack of a better word) primitive is the most popular book in the world. And there's probably one sitting on their shelf. And what's frustrating is that God as represented in this book has His own personality, concept of morality, that we can't adjust to our preference. It doesn't change. We can't mold God into contemporary thinking. And so consequently, arguments made by atheists almost inevitably target God's (or the God of the Bible) character.....and yes, as is noticed, to the point of obsession (although expect some denial of this). This supposed fictional character becomes a meanie of sorts. So this ironic scenario plays out where the argument starts out as God not existing (or no evidence).....to God (of the Bible) is a bully, is narcissistic, is a megalomaniac, etc.

There's also a false notion that Christianity only thrives due to aggressive evangelizing (or proselytizing). And this is simply not true. And as long as we live in a free society, this will continue to not be true. It will take a totalitarian type system to resort to attempted force just like we've seen (and see today) in anti-theistic systems and regimes. The idea is that through secular education (indoctrination) somehow magically without force, religion will just sort of phase out.

One of the paradoxes an atheist must face (and a possible avenue of frustration) is why would homosexual individuals even wish to bother with becoming clergymen, forming gay churches, etc.? Religion/Christianity is the bad guy. Secular Humanism/Atheism is the knight in shining armor coming to their rescue. Why do they even bother associating at all with an institution called the Church? Aside from the evidence that some clergymen in general use the position of a minister to promote secularism, for the most part I would say it goes right back to the understanding that God is good. But the struggle, which is not relegated to homosexuals is that yes, God is good, but God doesn't conform to our personal concepts of morality. And there are those in ministry who were at one time homosexuals, who realized that homosexuality is not their identity. They are not a minority. They are just like everyone else who has to deal with the issue of sin. And I don't mean to diminish their struggle. I believe many of them will be highly rewarded in Heaven for following Christ while in the midst of their struggle.

So what moral concept does God need to adjust to for contemporary views?

As the ENTIRE point of the Bible is PRINCIPLE based morality APPLIED CORRECTLY IN CONTEXT, the Higher Law, then I am failing to see what need adjustment?

So we need to adjust the view on lying?

Adultery?

Stealing?

Should we suddenly start worshipping money?

Charity somehow bad now?

Is promiscuity suddenly good? (Do you understand why homosexuality is bad in a tribal society? Like REALLY bad?)

We need to adjust the view on murder? Or do we need to re-examine the ethics of war in the context of war? A major theme in the OT.

Is the Sabbath wrong? Should we work and never have any fun or hobbies?

In the absence of clarity should we stop striving for right and wait to be told what to do?

Should we just start swearing for no particular reason or is professionalism stupid in this contemporary time of ours?

Should we treat others horribly? Or threat them as we expect to be treated? You know thy neighbor as thyself and all?

What part of this do you view as primitive?
el_em_en_oh
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4/1/2014 12:26:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:21:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
The Atheist's Frustration

I'm only going to respond to the topic of your post, as it presents enough for me to chat with you about.

As an atheist, I have no frustration, as I'm quite happy going about my day thinking about things I want to think about, and not thinking about things I don't want to think about. My belief, non-belief in the god concept is as irrelevant to you as your belief & thoughts on the subject are to me (at least I have hopes you don't spend your days pining over my non belief in the god concept).

The 'frustration' enters the picture when a christian, such as yourself, enters the room and attempts to push your beliefs down my throat. And I don't mean frustration on my part either... it's on YOUR part.

As I said, I have NO problem with thinking there isn't a god, and i don't feel compelled to try and make you think what I think. You, on the other hand, are frustrated by my not thinking there's a god, and feel compelled to make me think otherwise.

Re-title your post.

"The Christian's Frustration"

FTFY

I think that the 1971 Ferrari 246GT Dino Coupe is the greatest car ever built, but I'm not going to try and convince you of it, because frankly, I don't give a $hit one way or the other what you think. To me, it matters that *I* think it's a great car, no one else.

Why do you feel it necessary to MAKE me believe what you believe? Do you, and other Christians, feel it's your job to make all non-believers of the god concept, believers?
RoderickSpode
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4/1/2014 1:19:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 11:13:45 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:


However, I see this would be immensely frustrating to Christians, who believe this character to be real, but disagree on the nature of that personality. Some believe him to be all forgiving and all loving, others believe him to be wrathful and vengeful. It must be very difficult. I don't envy you.

I have no difficulty with it.

It doesn't change. We can't mold God into contemporary thinking.

The success of a myriad of Christian denominations would contradict that statement. You Christians have no problems molding God to fit your way of thinking when it suits your ends.

If I had my way, I would have God condone many things that fit my way of thinking that I know does not fit His way of thinking.

And so consequently, arguments made by atheists almost inevitably target God's (or the God of the Bible) character.....and yes, as is noticed, to the point of obsession (although expect some denial of this). This supposed fictional character becomes a meanie of sorts. So this ironic scenario plays out where the argument starts out as God not existing (or no evidence).....to God (of the Bible) is a bully, is narcissistic, is a megalomaniac, etc.

It makes sense that atheists would make such arguments as the depiction of God in the Bible is almost certainly at odds with how many contemporary Christians depict him in their rhetoric.

Like what?

There's also a false notion that Christianity only thrives due to aggressive evangelizing (or proselytizing). And this is simply not true. And as long as we live in a free society, this will continue to not be true. It will take a totalitarian type system to resort to attempted force just like we've seen (and see today) in anti-theistic systems and regimes. The idea is that through secular education (indoctrination) somehow magically without force, religion will just sort of phase out.

One of the paradoxes an atheist must face (and a possible avenue of frustration) is why would homosexual individuals even wish to bother with becoming clergymen, forming gay churches, etc.? Religion/Christianity is the bad guy.

Because not everyone believes that Christian doctrine is inherently homophobic.

What do you mean by Christian doctrine? Are you talking about the interpretation of what scripture actually states, or more along the lines of an errant Bible theme, where the Bible shouldn't be taken literally?
Secular Humanism/Atheism is the knight in shining armor coming to their rescue. Why do they even bother associating at all with an institution called the Church?

I don't know. Ask them?

I think the belief that God is a very real and loving entity plays a big part.

Aside from the evidence that some clergymen in general use the position of a minister to promote secularism, for the most part I would say it goes right back to the understanding that God is good.

No, it speaks to their character as humans, not God's.

How do you know?
But the struggle, which is not relegated to homosexuals is that yes, God is good, but God doesn't conform to our personal concepts of morality.

When you say "God is good" you are making a judgement based upon our concept of morality. You can't use our morality to judge God as good then tell others they can't use our concept of morality to judge God as bad.

I'm not making any demand on anyone. But this brings up the issue of whether or not one is referring to the God of the Bible, or a god in general (including a deistic god).
TheGreatAndPowerful
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4/1/2014 2:08:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 1:19:50 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 4/1/2014 11:13:45 AM, TheGreatAndPowerful wrote:


However, I see this would be immensely frustrating to Christians, who believe this character to be real, but disagree on the nature of that personality. Some believe him to be all forgiving and all loving, others believe him to be wrathful and vengeful. It must be very difficult. I don't envy you.

I have no difficulty with it.

It doesn't change. We can't mold God into contemporary thinking.

The success of a myriad of Christian denominations would contradict that statement. You Christians have no problems molding God to fit your way of thinking when it suits your ends.

If I had my way, I would have God condone many things that fit my way of thinking that I know does not fit His way of thinking.

For example?


And so consequently, arguments made by atheists almost inevitably target God's (or the God of the Bible) character.....and yes, as is noticed, to the point of obsession (although expect some denial of this). This supposed fictional character becomes a meanie of sorts. So this ironic scenario plays out where the argument starts out as God not existing (or no evidence).....to God (of the Bible) is a bully, is narcissistic, is a megalomaniac, etc.

It makes sense that atheists would make such arguments as the depiction of God in the Bible is almost certainly at odds with how many contemporary Christians depict him in their rhetoric.

Like what?

For example, suggesting that a god that would destroy the entire world is a loving, forgiving god.


There's also a false notion that Christianity only thrives due to aggressive evangelizing (or proselytizing). And this is simply not true. And as long as we live in a free society, this will continue to not be true. It will take a totalitarian type system to resort to attempted force just like we've seen (and see today) in anti-theistic systems and regimes. The idea is that through secular education (indoctrination) somehow magically without force, religion will just sort of phase out.

One of the paradoxes an atheist must face (and a possible avenue of frustration) is why would homosexual individuals even wish to bother with becoming clergymen, forming gay churches, etc.? Religion/Christianity is the bad guy.

Because not everyone believes that Christian doctrine is inherently homophobic.

What do you mean by Christian doctrine? Are you talking about the interpretation of what scripture actually states, or more along the lines of an errant Bible theme, where the Bible shouldn't be taken literally?

That depends on the Christian.

Secular Humanism/Atheism is the knight in shining armor coming to their rescue. Why do they even bother associating at all with an institution called the Church?

I don't know. Ask them?

I think the belief that God is a very real and loving entity plays a big part.

Are you them?



Aside from the evidence that some clergymen in general use the position of a minister to promote secularism, for the most part I would say it goes right back to the understanding that God is good.

No, it speaks to their character as humans, not God's.

How do you know?

As a convention, we generally judge a person's character based upon their actions.

But the struggle, which is not relegated to homosexuals is that yes, God is good, but God doesn't conform to our personal concepts of morality.

When you say "God is good" you are making a judgement based upon our concept of morality. You can't use our morality to judge God as good then tell others they can't use our concept of morality to judge God as bad.

I'm not making any demand on anyone. But this brings up the issue of whether or not one is referring to the God of the Bible, or a god in general (including a deistic god).

I didn't say you were making a demand. You were, however, imposing a limitation.
Skikx
Posts: 132
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4/1/2014 2:17:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:21:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Not only do Christians know that God is good, I would say that it's a universal concept that all men know. Deep down even an atheist knows even from the standpoint that if God exists, He must be good.

Well, I don't.

From the most (for lack of a better term) primitive standpoint, one looks at nature/creation, and concludes that the Creator (God) must be good.

No, I totally do not come to that conclusion.
God is supposed to be omnipotent, right? And he created everything (except himself), right?
So the only possibility is, that he created everything, not out of the goodness of his heart, but simply for his own gain. If there is nothing except god, then there is nobody who would benefit, except god.
Ergo, we are all just entertainment for this selfish god.

Of course some have somehow interpreted science as being God, attempting to remove the personality trait of God.

One of the frustrations is that the book that they right off as (not for a lack of a better word) primitive is the most popular book in the world.

Is that supposed to be an argumentum ad populum?

And there's probably one sitting on their shelf. And what's frustrating is that God as represented in this book has His own personality, concept of morality, that we can't adjust to our preference. It doesn't change. We can't mold God into contemporary thinking. And so consequently, arguments made by atheists almost inevitably target God's (or the God of the Bible) character.....and yes, as is noticed, to the point of obsession (although expect some denial of this). This supposed fictional character becomes a meanie of sorts. So this ironic scenario plays out where the argument starts out as God not existing (or no evidence).....to God (of the Bible) is a bully, is narcissistic, is a megalomaniac, etc.

What Irony? Saying that a character is mean inside a story and saying that this character does not exist outside this story, in the real world,is not mutually exclusive.

You can say, that the god of the bible, as a character inside a story, is a bully, without acknowledging that he exists in the real world, just as you can say that Batman, inside the comics, movies, TV shows, etc. is a hero, without acknowledging that batman exists in reality.
The point why atheists say that the god of the bible is a bad guy, is not because they admit in any way that he actually exists, it is because Christians describe their god as omnibenevolent and the moral absolute, while they usually ignore all the atrocities he committed. The problem here is, that it's usually the Christians, who are inconsistent and hypocritical and atheist just point that out.


There's also a false notion that Christianity only thrives due to aggressive evangelizing (or proselytizing). And this is simply not true. And as long as we live in a free society, this will continue to not be true. It will take a totalitarian type system to resort to attempted force just like we've seen (and see today) in anti-theistic systems and regimes. The idea is that through secular education (indoctrination) somehow magically without force, religion will just sort of phase out.

Yes, because (almost) nobody will feel the need to believe in a fairly tail, when they are properly educated, instead of being indoctrinated.


One of the paradoxes an atheist must face (and a possible avenue of frustration) is why would homosexual individuals even wish to bother with becoming clergymen, forming gay churches, etc.?
First tell me where exactly the paradox is. Are you saying that it is impossible to be homosexual and to be religious at the same time?

Religion/Christianity is the bad guy. Secular Humanism/Atheism is the knight in shining armor coming to their rescue. Why do they even bother associating at all with an institution called the Church? Aside from the evidence that some clergymen in general use the position of a minister to promote secularism, for the most part I would say it goes right back to the understanding that God is good. But the struggle, which is not relegated to homosexuals is that yes, God is good, but God doesn't conform to our personal concepts of morality. And there are those in ministry who were at one time homosexuals, who realized that homosexuality is not their identity. They are not a minority. They are just like everyone else who has to deal with the issue of sin. And I don't mean to diminish their struggle. I believe many of them will be highly rewarded in Heaven for following Christ while in the midst of their struggle.

But not if they're eating shell fish or wearing clothes made out of wool and clothes made out of linen at the same time, right?
TS-387
Posts: 382
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4/2/2014 6:04:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/1/2014 10:21:52 AM, RoderickSpode wrote:
Not only do Christians know that God is good, I would say that it's a universal concept that all men know. Deep down even an atheist knows even from the standpoint that if God exists, He must be good.

Why exactly 'must' he be good?
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