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Why DON'T you believe in God?

mishtar
Posts: 31
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4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)
Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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4/10/2014 7:45:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am yet to be presented with anything I find persuasive or coherent enough to give me reason to believe in god. It's no more complicated than that.
Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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4/10/2014 7:49:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)

I value life and the well-being of my fellow person and non fellow person too much to allow a at-best-speculative worldview control every aspect of my life, hw I eat, how I have sex, etc etc etc.

That's a massive claim, and I expect to see very compelling evidence if the consequences are so severe, which I fail to see.
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mishtar
Posts: 31
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4/10/2014 8:12:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
: At 4/10/2014 7:45:56 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
I am yet to be presented with anything I find persuasive or coherent enough to give me reason to believe in god. It's no more complicated than that.

Thanks for your honest answer. I have a couple questions...
1) (the obvious question) What would be an acceptable "anything" (evidence) that is persuasive or coherent enough for you to believe God exists?

2) Is there anything that you believe exists now, though you can't prove? If so, please explain.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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4/10/2014 8:20:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 7:45:56 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
I am yet to be presented with anything I find persuasive or coherent enough to give me reason to believe in god. It's no more complicated than that.

Just curious: what do you imagine it would require for you to actually consider the existence of a creator to be likely?
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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4/10/2014 9:39:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)

The trouble with God is that God doesn't get you anywhere. People want to take "God" and then make all sorts of claims about what it can and can't do, what it will or won't do etc etc and control people in some way based on the claim that if you do X God is going punish you.

Great way to control people ? sure, can it be backed up by more than mere assertion ? I doubt it.

I mean you just said you follow Jesus. Which is just a coded way of saying you have beliefs about what God wants and doesn't want from you. Now here is the joke.....did God ever tell you what he wants from you ? or has your fellow man told you what God wants...........under threat of eternal hell fire.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
mishtar
Posts: 31
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4/11/2014 1:46:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
"I value life and the well-being of my fellow person and non fellow person too much..."

Thanks for responding, I appreciate it. From your response, I have a few questions.
I see you've made a value-judgement and an obligation. That you value fellow persons and non-persons and have an obligation or duty to them. From where do you derive this value-judgement and the obligation?

"too much to allow a at-best-speculative worldview control every aspect of my life, hw I eat, how I have sex, etc etc etc."

How is it that your current worldview itself is not speculative at best?

" That's a massive claim, and I expect to see very compelling evidence if the consequences are so severe, which I fail to see."

I'll ask you the same question I asked another poster...what would this compelling evidence consist of? Also, do you actively search out and study the possibility of God honestly? You also say that you fail to see this evidence. How is it that you would receive this evidence?

Thanks for you time
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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4/11/2014 1:58:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I have yet to see any evidence which is compelling support for any god claim. While I'm unsure what evidence would be wholly convincing, it's basically a moot point at present since there has been no compelling evidence offered whatsoever in support of the motion, that I've ever seen.
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mishtar
Posts: 31
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4/11/2014 3:01:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 9:39:39 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
"People want to take "God" and then make all sorts of claims about what it can and can't do, what it will or won't do etc etc and control people in some way based on the claim that if you do X God is going punish you."

I can't say that I disagree with you that there are people that make all sorts of claims and those looking to control. I also think that when you do in-depth research, you start to see the separation of the wild claims and those of fact. But because people do things, that does not invalidate God or attempting to seek Him out. That isn't really evidence against God, that's just a form of argumentum ad populum.

" Great way to control people ? sure, can it be backed up by more than mere assertion ? I doubt it."

Who's assertion, and what would disqualify that it is only mere assertion being used for the belief in God? Are we talking about a lack of evidence? Also, you've just made your own assertion, by the use of "I doubt it".

"I mean you just said you follow Jesus. Which is just a coded way of saying you have beliefs about what God wants and doesn't want from you."

I don't see that my statement of following Jesus is a coded way to say anything at all. Though, I do not disagree that I have beliefs about what God wants and doesn't want from me, but that is not the whole point either. What do you think those things are? I am just curious about what someone else, a nonbeliever, thinks God would want and not want from me or anyone?

"Now here is the joke.....did God ever tell you what he wants from you ? or has your fellow man told you what God wants...........under threat of eternal hell fire."

To answer your question, I believe that God has communicated with me in ways that I understand. In biblical terms, this would be of the Holy Spirit. But, this is merely anecdotal. If the Bible is believed to be God's word, well, He certainly tells many things that He desires from His creations. I believe that through the Bible is one of the main ways He communicates.
I have heard many fellow humans preach the fire and brimstone method. Finding and coming to God is not an issue to be compelled upon a person, rather a willful and purposeful choice. The fire and brimstone method reeks of attempted control.
mishtar
Posts: 31
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4/11/2014 3:27:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
" At 4/11/2014 1:58:50 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I have yet to see any evidence which is compelling support for any god claim. While I'm unsure what evidence would be wholly convincing, it's basically a moot point at present since there has been no compelling evidence offered whatsoever in support of the motion, that I've ever seen."


Thanks for responding to the post, I appreciate it.

I am not exactly sure where you stand...So, would you label yourself agnostic or athiest or...?

How would you recognize any evidence whatsoever? I know you said you don't know what it would be, but how you would think you might recognize it if you were given this information?
Illegalcombatant
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4/11/2014 3:37:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 3:01:18 AM, mishtar wrote:
At 4/10/2014 9:39:39 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
"People want to take "God" and then make all sorts of claims about what it can and can't do, what it will or won't do etc etc and control people in some way based on the claim that if you do X God is going punish you."

I can't say that I disagree with you that there are people that make all sorts of claims and those looking to control. I also think that when you do in-depth research, you start to see the separation of the wild claims and those of fact. But because people do things, that does not invalidate God or attempting to seek Him out. That isn't really evidence against God, that's just a form of argumentum ad populum.

" Great way to control people ? sure, can it be backed up by more than mere assertion ? I doubt it."

Who's assertion, and what would disqualify that it is only mere assertion being used for the belief in God? Are we talking about a lack of evidence? Also, you've just made your own assertion, by the use of "I doubt it".

To answer your question evidence would help. Even more helpful would be a God claim that is testable.

It's not enough that some one at some point has claimed God wants......XYZ. Anybody can claim anything about God, that is the world we live in, that's why a mere assertion about God means jack.

And no, the bible doesn't get special treatment. Christians want special treatment for the bible, sure don't believe something just because it's asserterd................unless it's in the bible then hell all bets are off.


"I mean you just said you follow Jesus. Which is just a coded way of saying you have beliefs about what God wants and doesn't want from you."

I don't see that my statement of following Jesus is a coded way to say anything at all. Though, I do not disagree that I have beliefs about what God wants and doesn't want from me, but that is not the whole point either. What do you think those things are? I am just curious about what someone else, a nonbeliever, thinks God would want and not want from me or anyone?

Those things will be the result of your own religious indoctrination.


"Now here is the joke.....did God ever tell you what he wants from you ? or has your fellow man told you what God wants...........under threat of eternal hell fire."

To answer your question, I believe that God has communicated with me in ways that I understand. In biblical terms, this would be of the Holy Spirit. But, this is merely anecdotal. If the Bible is believed to be God's word, well, He certainly tells many things that He desires from His creations. I believe that through the Bible is one of the main ways He communicates.

This is the whole problem I find with believers. They will nod their head about yeah you just can't believe something about God cause it has being asserted, then they will start talking about well if the bible is Gods word.

It's special pleading, your accepting some assertions about God while rejecting others on the basis.........the basis of what ? whether it is in the bible or not. I guess the muslims do the same with the quran and Mormons with the book of mormen.

And the whole holy spirit deal suffers the same problem. I don't think the holy spirit told you anything, I think the religious indoctrination came first and some where down the line the believer tells them self the story about how it is God speaking to them....

I have heard many fellow humans preach the fire and brimstone method. Finding and coming to God is not an issue to be compelled upon a person, rather a willful and purposeful choice. The fire and brimstone method reeks of attempted control.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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4/11/2014 3:46:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 1:46:14 AM, mishtar wrote:
"I value life and the well-being of my fellow person and non fellow person too much..."

Thanks for responding, I appreciate it. From your response, I have a few questions.
I see you've made a value-judgement and an obligation. That you value fellow persons and non-persons and have an obligation or duty to them. From where do you derive this value-judgement and the obligation?

From myself.

"too much to allow a at-best-speculative worldview control every aspect of my life, hw I eat, how I have sex, etc etc etc."

How is it that your current worldview itself is not speculative at best?

My worldview does make any additional unfounded knowledge claims. So it's more rational a priori via Occums razor.

" That's a massive claim, and I expect to see very compelling evidence if the consequences are so severe, which I fail to see."

I'll ask you the same question I asked another poster...what would this compelling evidence consist of? Also, do you actively search out and study the possibility of God honestly? You also say that you fail to see this evidence. How is it that you would receive this evidence?

Empirically. Or philosophically.

I was a Christian for 25 years fyi... It was pretty obvious after taking a step back and looking at things objectively that my own religion was weak at best.

Thanks for you time
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Graincruncher
Posts: 2,799
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4/11/2014 5:18:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:12:09 PM, mishtar wrote:
: At 4/10/2014 7:45:56 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
I am yet to be presented with anything I find persuasive or coherent enough to give me reason to believe in god. It's no more complicated than that.

Thanks for your honest answer. I have a couple questions...
1) (the obvious question) What would be an acceptable "anything" (evidence) that is persuasive or coherent enough for you to believe God exists?

I don't really know, to be honest. It would depend on the god being claimed, for a start; a monotheistic god I really can't say, because I find the whole idea so implausible that even the kind of evidence that would support it seems beyond imagination. It would need to be striking though, as miraculous claims require miraculous evidence. Said evidence would also have to only be reasonably explicable by divine means, in some way ruling out other explanations as being likely alternatives.

2) Is there anything that you believe exists now, though you can't prove? If so, please explain.

It depends on how you're defining 'exists' and what standard of proof you mean. At the harshest end of evidential substantiation, there are inevitably things that I consider likely to exist without having demonstrated them myself. However, these things always exist in a framework of other things of increasingly evidenced existence, which acts as a kind of pseudo-deductive scaffold for those things that are more considered merely 'likely' than 'known'.
bulproof
Posts: 25,203
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4/11/2014 5:23:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)

I don't believe in any god, so to which god do you refer?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Yoshi
Posts: 71
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4/11/2014 6:59:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:12:09 PM, mishtar wrote:
: At 4/10/2014 7:45:56 PM, Graincruncher wrote:
I am yet to be presented with anything I find persuasive or coherent enough to give me reason to believe in god. It's no more complicated than that.

Thanks for your honest answer. I have a couple questions...
1) (the obvious question) What would be an acceptable "anything" (evidence) that is persuasive or coherent enough for you to believe God exists?

2) Is there anything that you believe exists now, though you can't prove? If so, please explain.

Your second question seems like it's leading to a fallacy.

But I will answer it.

2. I don't believe in anything without a valid reason or evidence for the claim.

For example, I believe New Zeland exists because I have a valid reason to, but I don't believe in Bigfoot because there's no valid reason.

1. What I would consider an acceptable "anything" as a valid reason would be to have a deity come down from where ever and perform a task that of which only a deity could do so. (This also needs to be evidence based on a valid observation which can be verified by people who did not see this occurrence)
rross
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4/11/2014 7:45:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Oh well. I wish I were more sophisticated, but i started off not believing in God because I thought that God could not be so unfair and cruel and still exist as I had been taught. But later, I realized that God was unnecessary for understanding my experiences and in terms of formal knowledge of the universe. There was no gap in understanding that could only be filled by faith.

There are emotional and social consequences of faith, of course, and I think sometimes that that's the only way I could convert back. If I had a strong emotional faith in god, that would be enough, or if I lived in a society where the existence of god was integral to everyday routines. But I don't.
bladerunner060
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4/11/2014 8:25:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 3:27:36 AM, mishtar wrote:
" At 4/11/2014 1:58:50 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I have yet to see any evidence which is compelling support for any god claim. While I'm unsure what evidence would be wholly convincing, it's basically a moot point at present since there has been no compelling evidence offered whatsoever in support of the motion, that I've ever seen."


Thanks for responding to the post, I appreciate it.

I am not exactly sure where you stand...So, would you label yourself agnostic or athiest or...?

That depends on how you define the terms. In general, there is a trend these days to label on a foursquare--that is, to label agnostic/gnostic, theist/atheist. The gnosis parts dealing with whether we know or not, the theist parts dealing with god-belief.

I would be an agnostic atheist, under that rubric. I don't pretend to certainty, so I don't claim to "know" there is no god. But I do not believe in god any more than I believe in anything that's proposed without any evidence.

How would you recognize any evidence whatsoever? I know you said you don't know what it would be, but how you would think you might recognize it if you were given this information?

I don't know what what be wholly convincing, or definitive. But thus far, no evidence whatsoever of the supernatural beyond mere claims has ever been presented that I've seen. That would be a good starting point--at least then we'd have cause to think that the rules governing reality can be changed, something a god would have to be able to do to get the name. There are other similar evidence that at least would mean that there was something that had to be explained.
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Wyattator
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4/11/2014 8:26:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The reason I don't believe in any religions that exist right now is because if you research any of the religions that exist today or have existed at some point, they are all simply historically and scientifically inaccurate. If more people would actually research their religions themselves then the amount of religious people in the world today would plummet. As far as why I don't believe some supreme being created the universe is simply that there is no logical evidence. Us being here is not proof of a supreme being. While a lot of people follow a religion because they say, "How did we get here? We can't just appear, there has to be a creator." People should say, "How did we get here? I don't know." It's just that simple, just say I don't know.
Df0512
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4/11/2014 8:56:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't believe in the bible version of God. If someone did create this universe he/she/it /they aren't anything like the bible describes. With phenomenons like spooky action at a distance, and the quantum zeno effect, it's hard for me to deny that there is a 3rd party involved some how. I mean how would a quantum system know we were watching it. Sounds like someone knows we are watching it.
Double_R
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4/11/2014 12:21:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...

It's not a matter of something stopping your belief in God, it's a matter of what starts it.

On the day you were born, did you believe in God? I highly doubt it. So did you believe that there was no God? I highly doubt that as well. The truth of the matter is that you didn't hold a belief about the question placing you in the default position: Non-belief.

So for every person who holds a belief either way on this subject, there was a point somewhere where they moved from the default position of non-belief to a position of belief. The question each of those people have to ask themselves is what made them move away from the default position and is that a justified?

In terms of belief in God, you have to start with a definition. If it is logically impossible (like an all loving God who sends people to suffer eternally in hell) then the only logical belief is that this God doesn't exist. As far as any God that is logically impossible it now becomes a matter of whether there is evidence to support the existence or nonexistence of this God. And since most definitions of God include existing outside of time and space, something that we could never observe, detect, or experience in any way, there is no rational basis for such a belief.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/11/2014 12:37:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)

I can't reconcile a belief in God with scientific fact that contradicts the bible. And I can't pretend to reconcile it in the way that brother neutral tries to do it because I know it's just inventing excuses in order to hold up his religious beliefs.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/11/2014 12:41:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 12:37:35 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)

I can't reconcile a belief in God with scientific fact that contradicts the bible.
curious, what is it about the bible that would allow you to justify double standards?
you as well as i will agree that gullibility is not a good thing to apply to ones life, so why not apply that to the claims the bible makes...?
sure there may be a 1st uncaused cause, but you still have all the work cut out for you to prove that belief in this first uncaused cause is relevant
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
mishtar
Posts: 31
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4/11/2014 12:44:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
: At 4/11/2014 3:46:17 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 4/11/2014 1:46:14 AM, mishtar wrote:
"I value life and the well-being of my fellow person and non fellow person too much..."

Thanks for responding, I appreciate it. From your response, I have a few questions.
I see you've made a value-judgement and an obligation. That you value fellow persons and non-persons and have an obligation or duty to them. From where do you derive this value-judgement and the obligation?

From myself.


I see. Thank you. So basically, your value-judgements and obligations are derived unjustifiably and arbitrarily. Is this a statement that you agree with?

"too much to allow a at-best-speculative worldview control every aspect of my life, hw I eat, how I have sex, etc etc etc."

How is it that your current worldview itself is not speculative at best?

My worldview does make any additional unfounded knowledge claims. So it's more rational a priori via Occums razor.


Based on your worldview, what would be your take on the origin of life?

I'll ask you the same question I asked another poster...what would this compelling evidence consist of? Also, do you actively search out and study the possibility of God honestly? You also say that you fail to see this evidence. How is it that you would receive this evidence?

Empirically. Or philosophically.


Since you gave an "or", I'll focus on philosophically. What kind of philosophic evidence would you be looking for?
monty1
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4/11/2014 12:47:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 12:41:16 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:37:35 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)

I can't reconcile a belief in God with scientific fact that contradicts the bible.
curious, what is it about the bible that would allow you to justify double standards?
you as well as i will agree that gullibility is not a good thing to apply to ones life, so why not apply that to the claims the bible makes...?
sure there may be a 1st uncaused cause, but you still have all the work cut out for you to prove that belief in this first uncaused cause is relevant

I don't understand your question on me justifying double standards. Can you explain that? What do you mean. All I've said here should lead you to believe that I am strictly adhering to one standard because I can't reconcile a double standard when it comes to belief in a god.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/11/2014 12:48:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 12:47:10 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:41:16 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:37:35 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)

I can't reconcile a belief in God with scientific fact that contradicts the bible.
curious, what is it about the bible that would allow you to justify double standards?
you as well as i will agree that gullibility is not a good thing to apply to ones life, so why not apply that to the claims the bible makes...?
sure there may be a 1st uncaused cause, but you still have all the work cut out for you to prove that belief in this first uncaused cause is relevant

I don't understand your question on me justifying double standards. Can you explain that?
sure, do you normally take claims based on face value?

What do you mean. All I've said here should lead you to believe that I am strictly adhering to one standard because I can't reconcile a double standard when it comes to belief in a god.
i understand that...so do you normally believe claims based on face value?
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/11/2014 12:53:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 12:48:36 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:47:10 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:41:16 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:37:35 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)

I can't reconcile a belief in God with scientific fact that contradicts the bible.
curious, what is it about the bible that would allow you to justify double standards?
you as well as i will agree that gullibility is not a good thing to apply to ones life, so why not apply that to the claims the bible makes...?
sure there may be a 1st uncaused cause, but you still have all the work cut out for you to prove that belief in this first uncaused cause is relevant

I don't understand your question on me justifying double standards. Can you explain that?
sure, do you normally take claims based on face value?

What do you mean. All I've said here should lead you to believe that I am strictly adhering to one standard because I can't reconcile a double standard when it comes to belief in a god.
i understand that...so do you normally believe claims based on face value?

I don't understand why you would ask that either? Why do you think I believe claims based on face value? I base my acceptance of scientific facts and my rejection of religious beliefs on much more than face value. If you want to carry on a conversation with me then please try to be more honest and forthcoming. I don't need to continue in order to analyze your personality you know.
Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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4/11/2014 12:55:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 12:44:31 PM, mishtar wrote:
: At 4/11/2014 3:46:17 AM, Sswdwm wrote:
At 4/11/2014 1:46:14 AM, mishtar wrote:
"I value life and the well-being of my fellow person and non fellow person too much..."

Thanks for responding, I appreciate it. From your response, I have a few questions.
I see you've made a value-judgement and an obligation. That you value fellow persons and non-persons and have an obligation or duty to them. From where do you derive this value-judgement and the obligation?

From myself.


I see. Thank you. So basically, your value-judgements and obligations are derived unjustifiably and arbitrarily. Is this a statement that you agree with?

No, I don't, and it's more complicated than that. I didn't expand on it because it's irrelivent, the simple case is I value something highly, therefore I set a high standard of proof for theistic claims. This has no bearing on the truth to the claims, it just means I need to be more sure of the truth to the claim to accept it than I would for more mundane things (like somebody telling me who their wife is).


"too much to allow a at-best-speculative worldview control every aspect of my life, hw I eat, how I have sex, etc etc etc."

How is it that your current worldview itself is not speculative at best?

My worldview does make any additional unfounded knowledge claims. So it's more rational a priori via Occums razor.


Based on your worldview, what would be your take on the origin of life?

Yes, and it's a rational one. Abiogenesis seems the most likely candidate for OOL, but my level of confidence is lower in it than other claims (such as gravity).

I'll ask you the same question I asked another poster...what would this compelling evidence consist of? Also, do you actively search out and study the possibility of God honestly? You also say that you fail to see this evidence. How is it that you would receive this evidence?

Empirically. Or philosophically.


Since you gave an "or", I'll focus on philosophically. What kind of philosophic evidence would you be looking for?

I don't know, it's not me that's making the claims, I can only assess what's presented to me. Any compelling philosophical demonstration would work though, with sound premises and a valid argument, a valid conclusion and free of logical fallacies.

I have yet to come across one however.
Resolved: the Zombie Apocalypse Will Happen
http://www.debate.org...

The most basic living cell was Intelligently Designed:
http://www.debate.org...

God most likely exists:
http://www.debate.org...
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/11/2014 1:03:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 12:53:06 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:48:36 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:47:10 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:41:16 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:37:35 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)

I can't reconcile a belief in God with scientific fact that contradicts the bible.
curious, what is it about the bible that would allow you to justify double standards?
you as well as i will agree that gullibility is not a good thing to apply to ones life, so why not apply that to the claims the bible makes...?
sure there may be a 1st uncaused cause, but you still have all the work cut out for you to prove that belief in this first uncaused cause is relevant

I don't understand your question on me justifying double standards. Can you explain that?
sure, do you normally take claims based on face value?

What do you mean. All I've said here should lead you to believe that I am strictly adhering to one standard because I can't reconcile a double standard when it comes to belief in a god.
i understand that...so do you normally believe claims based on face value?

I don't understand why you would ask that either? Why do you think I believe claims based on face value? I base my acceptance of scientific facts and my rejection of religious beliefs on much more than face value.
like?
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/11/2014 1:12:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 1:03:11 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:53:06 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:48:36 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:47:10 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:41:16 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:37:35 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)

I can't reconcile a belief in God with scientific fact that contradicts the bible.
curious, what is it about the bible that would allow you to justify double standards?
you as well as i will agree that gullibility is not a good thing to apply to ones life, so why not apply that to the claims the bible makes...?
sure there may be a 1st uncaused cause, but you still have all the work cut out for you to prove that belief in this first uncaused cause is relevant

I don't understand your question on me justifying double standards. Can you explain that?
sure, do you normally take claims based on face value?

What do you mean. All I've said here should lead you to believe that I am strictly adhering to one standard because I can't reconcile a double standard when it comes to belief in a god.
i understand that...so do you normally believe claims based on face value?

I don't understand why you would ask that either? Why do you think I believe claims based on face value? I base my acceptance of scientific facts and my rejection of religious beliefs on much more than face value.
like?

Oh I see! You have dried up on me because you are feeling uncomfortable with my questions and uncomfortable about discussing yourself. Everything you have said up til now indicated that you wished to be the topic of discussion. I understand that you really didn't want that at all.

That'll be all for now. Thanks.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/11/2014 1:15:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 1:12:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 1:03:11 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:53:06 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:48:36 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:47:10 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:41:16 PM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:37:35 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 7:35:17 PM, mishtar wrote:
I am looking for your intelligent, well thought out, primary reason(s) that you do not believe in God (not necessarily the God mentioned in the Bible, but at least a creator god). I would like, in your answer, that you think back to and discuss the source reason that stops your belief of God in its tracks...not simply stating, for example, that it is stupid or impossible. I can find those low-brow opinions on any comment board on the internet. My purpose is to learn about and discuss the various reasons individuals may have regarding this.

Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to reason here.
(PS: I do believe in, and follow, God/Jesus of the Bible)

I can't reconcile a belief in God with scientific fact that contradicts the bible.
curious, what is it about the bible that would allow you to justify double standards?
you as well as i will agree that gullibility is not a good thing to apply to ones life, so why not apply that to the claims the bible makes...?
sure there may be a 1st uncaused cause, but you still have all the work cut out for you to prove that belief in this first uncaused cause is relevant

I don't understand your question on me justifying double standards. Can you explain that?
sure, do you normally take claims based on face value?

What do you mean. All I've said here should lead you to believe that I am strictly adhering to one standard because I can't reconcile a double standard when it comes to belief in a god.
i understand that...so do you normally believe claims based on face value?

I don't understand why you would ask that either? Why do you think I believe claims based on face value? I base my acceptance of scientific facts and my rejection of religious beliefs on much more than face value.
like?

Oh I see! You have dried up on me because you are feeling uncomfortable with my questions and uncomfortable about discussing yourself. Everything you have said up til now indicated that you wished to be the topic of discussion. I understand that you really didn't want that at all.

That'll be all for now. Thanks.

no monty i approached you with the questions you are trying to divert...
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.