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Is there free will in heaven?

Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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4/10/2014 9:33:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't think there'll be libertarian free will in heaven because, like you said, that would make it possible for people to sin in heaven.

But I do think people will be free in the compatibilist sense. That is, they will be free to do what they please. The reason they won't sin will be because they won't want to.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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4/10/2014 10:16:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

*Put's on christian theologian hat............

Sin only exists where there is law and there is some violation of that law. You can't have sin, the violation of the law unless you have the law there in the first place to be violated.

You can't be fined for speeding where there is no speed limit in the first place.

Where there is no law, there is no sin. As long as there is law there will at least in theory always be the possibility of a violation of it and thus "sin" existing.

So if you want a place not to have sinners in it, just make the area law free.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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4/10/2014 10:43:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

Good, without evil, does not make sense.
Bliss, without sorrow, does not make sense.
Heaven, alone, does not make sense.
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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4/10/2014 10:55:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

It's a very interesting argument, but if there is no free will in Heaven then that also means there are no acts of goodness, since one much choose freely to do a good act. So what would that make Heaven? Some kind of morally-neutral final stop in which to spend eternity?
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/11/2014 8:43:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

i wonder if wondering about our loved ones being eternally punished would be an act of sinning in heaven. surely knowing ones loved one is in torment would make heaven cease to be heaven, (there foes free will). or, does god give the adherent a lobotomy and erase all memory of the loved ones that are not in heaven, but how would that work our lives in the here and now are intertwined...well then i suppose god will erase all your memory...so much for reuniting with your loved ones in heaven (those that made it) you wouldn't be able to recognize them

personally the idea of heaven is horrible.
it sucks away the meaning of the here and now and appreciating the limited time we have...
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,286
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4/11/2014 9:26:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

Only that which is perfect will enter heaven. After death the physical veil which separates us from the spiritual realm will be removed. And we will either go to hell or heaven (with a possible trip trough purgatory for final purification).

Those who are in heaven will have their true desire met - the beatific vision whereby we see God and enter into his perfect love. Those who desire anything else more than this, will not enter heaven in the first place.
Angelos
Posts: 30
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4/11/2014 1:17:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The biblical God will destroy both Heaven and Earth.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." (Matthew 24:35 ESV)

Then, a new Heaven and earth will be made.

Then, I saw a "new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.(Revelation 21:1 NIV)

This means that the biblical God will destroy both heaven and earth, for the former things will pass away. The heaven and earth He will destroy are filled with sin, but the new heaven and earth, for many people, is a place where no sin exists.

Free-will does not exist; it never existed in the first place. The biblical God controls His creations. In the new heaven, God will wipe away evil and death. We know that we will be worshiping the biblical God for eternity. What does this mean? It simply means that we will be controlled by the biblical God in the new heaven just as how He is doing so right now.
12_13
Posts: 1,365
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4/11/2014 1:40:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

I disagree with that.

Sin is to reject God. If person doesn"t reject God, he has no sin.

I believe people in heaven want freely God"s will to happen. Therefore I don"t think there is sin even though I think people are free.

Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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4/11/2014 1:41:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:

Lordgrae - My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

Solid argumentation. I disagree that we won't have free will in Heaven but the logic is good. As illegalcombatant showed, (shock and awe for an intelligent, non-abusive, well thought out post) there is at least one way to have free will in Heaven and no possibility of sin. There are other ways.

But I am awed at the truth that illegalcombatant, an atheist, has reasoned (stumbled?) into. One of the Joys of Heaven is that finally, we will be truly free. "He who the son sets free is free indeed." - Jesus.

philochristos - But I do think people will be free in the compatibilist sense. That is, they will be free to do what they please. The reason they won't sin will be because they won't want to.

Exactly. This is the entire point of being born again. Jesus is going to change us into people "like" him. We are going to have free will, but along with that free will, we are going to have Jesus' nature. Just like Jesus, we will never want to.

perplexed - surely knowing ones loved one is in torment would make heaven cease to be heaven,...

Well. In Heaven we will have the same value system as God. We will value justice just as much as mercy. And we won't want one more or less than the other depending on whether we were the ones to get mercy or justice.

I don't think the Bible teaches that people are tortured in Hell forever, but that is for another thread so that this one isn't hijacked. But either way, it seems that there could be sadness. If your loved ones are not being tortured but only didn't make it to Heaven and are dead, that could be sad too.

The thing is that God has promised that there will be no sadness there, and when it comes to pleasure, I trust God. When I eat a pecan pie, hug one of my daughters, swim in the warm ocean, or get cuddly with my wife, I know that God knows a thing or two about pleasure.

So I work hard now so that my loved ones go to Heaven.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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4/13/2014 4:19:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 10:16:54 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

*Put's on christian theologian hat............

Sin only exists where there is law and there is some violation of that law. You can't have sin, the violation of the law unless you have the law there in the first place to be violated.

You can't be fined for speeding where there is no speed limit in the first place.

Where there is no law, there is no sin. As long as there is law there will at least in theory always be the possibility of a violation of it and thus "sin" existing.

So if you want a place not to have sinners in it, just make the area law free.

Well, perhaps it wouldn't be sin, but assaulting someone is harmful to that person whether or not there is a law against it. Speeding still causes higher rates of accidents whether or not a cop will pull you over and write out a ticket for it.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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4/13/2014 5:08:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

The idea is that we will become like God, as in we will become omnibenevolent. God could commit a sinful act, but he won't because that goes against his omnibenevolent nature. It is the same for all of those in Heaven. In other words, we won't sin because the idea of sin will seem so revolting and utterly out there that we simple won't sin.
bornofgod
Posts: 11,322
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4/13/2014 7:32:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 1:17:15 PM, Angelos wrote:
The biblical God will destroy both Heaven and Earth.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." (Matthew 24:35 ESV)

Then, a new Heaven and earth will be made.

Then, I saw a "new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.(Revelation 21:1 NIV)

This means that the biblical God will destroy both heaven and earth, for the former things will pass away. The heaven and earth He will destroy are filled with sin, but the new heaven and earth, for many people, is a place where no sin exists.

Free-will does not exist; it never existed in the first place. The biblical God controls His creations. In the new heaven, God will wipe away evil and death. We know that we will be worshiping the biblical God for eternity. What does this mean? It simply means that we will be controlled by the biblical God in the new heaven just as how He is doing so right now.

In the next age, the ONE language we speak to each other won't contain words to describe anything good or evil. We won't understand what death, decay, or destruction is. There won't be any accidents, disease, wars, natural disasters, storms, etc. Man won't understand what jealousy is or what addictions are. And we won't remember anything that happened in this first age to compare the new heaven and earth with.

Isaiah 65:
17: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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4/13/2014 10:27:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 10:55:01 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

It's a very interesting argument, but if there is no free will in Heaven then that also means there are no acts of goodness, since one much choose freely to do a good act. So what would that make Heaven? Some kind of morally-neutral final stop in which to spend eternity?

Not necessarily. Free will is not required for evil or good. Pure neutrality may require some lack of free will, as partiality and bias are inherent to our nature. However, if someone programs a robot to help people, the robot does good, regardless of whether it has a choice in the matter. I simply am saying that with free will, any large group of people will commit both good and evil acts, so if heaven is supposedly a perfect place, then it must either contain very few people, or must lack a free will, but have a directive for good.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
bulproof
Posts: 25,297
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4/13/2014 10:30:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 5:08:24 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

The idea is that we will become like God, as in we will become omnibenevolent. God could commit a sinful act, but he won't because that goes against his omnibenevolent nature. It is the same for all of those in Heaven. In other words, we won't sin because the idea of sin will seem so revolting and utterly out there that we simple won't sin.
So god will reprogramme us? Why not programme properly the first time?
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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4/13/2014 10:32:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 9:26:48 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

Only that which is perfect will enter heaven. After death the physical veil which separates us from the spiritual realm will be removed. And we will either go to hell or heaven (with a possible trip trough purgatory for final purification).

Those who are in heaven will have their true desire met - the beatific vision whereby we see God and enter into his perfect love. Those who desire anything else more than this, will not enter heaven in the first place.

You probably do not believe in it, but evolution causes us to have a desire for sex. It also tells us to hoard resources. It tells us to be selfish, but keep a small interest in the group, but only because their survival will increase your chances at survival. No matter how much you may suppress it, when you look at an attractive person of whatever you are into, you probably feel some lust, though you may confess it later. When you see a new device that will simplify your life or increase your pleasures or comfort, you will desire it. If you live by any money that is not the bare minimum required for you to live decent, then you hoard it from those who need it more. If you save some of your money for retirement, then you desire a comfortable life beyond that which you work.

Your standards are ridiculous.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
Lordgrae
Posts: 666
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4/13/2014 10:35:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 1:17:15 PM, Angelos wrote:
The biblical God will destroy both Heaven and Earth.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." (Matthew 24:35 ESV)

Then, a new Heaven and earth will be made.

Then, I saw a "new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.(Revelation 21:1 NIV)

This means that the biblical God will destroy both heaven and earth, for the former things will pass away. The heaven and earth He will destroy are filled with sin, but the new heaven and earth, for many people, is a place where no sin exists.

Free-will does not exist; it never existed in the first place. The biblical God controls His creations. In the new heaven, God will wipe away evil and death. We know that we will be worshiping the biblical God for eternity. What does this mean? It simply means that we will be controlled by the biblical God in the new heaven just as how He is doing so right now.

I have massive disagreements on the legitimacy of your beliefs against science, but good for you for being consistent in your beliefs.

To be honest though, I almost like the people who say 'you don't have to be perfect to go to heaven, or even believe in Jesus, but you just have to be a good person, and my faith helps me with that' better, though their views are more ridiculous in light of their texts.

Have fun with your puritanical beliefs of predetermination. I'll be having fun with my antinomianism buddies.
Birth Name: Graesil s'h'u Aln s'de Alanai'u s'se Saeron
Name: Grae
Titles: Lord, x'Sor Linniae (the false king), Elven War Chief, Heir to Aln
Class: Melee Archer/ Orator
Main Stats: Charisma, Dexterity
Weilds: Bladebow, Elven Slim Sword
Skills: Oration, Double Shot, Backstab, Snatch, Overwhelm Mind, Dominate, Parley, Restorative Sleep
Personal History: Born as the second of triplets, he was wed at an early age to a Dryad. He escaped several times, and on the last was captured and enslaved
Idealist
Posts: 2,520
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4/13/2014 11:01:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 10:27:14 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 4/10/2014 10:55:01 PM, Idealist wrote:
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

It's a very interesting argument, but if there is no free will in Heaven then that also means there are no acts of goodness, since one much choose freely to do a good act. So what would that make Heaven? Some kind of morally-neutral final stop in which to spend eternity?

Not necessarily. Free will is not required for evil or good. Pure neutrality may require some lack of free will, as partiality and bias are inherent to our nature. However, if someone programs a robot to help people, the robot does good, regardless of whether it has a choice in the matter. I simply am saying that with free will, any large group of people will commit both good and evil acts, so if heaven is supposedly a perfect place, then it must either contain very few people, or must lack a free will, but have a directive for good.

"The free will response asserts that the existence of free beings is something of very high value, because with free will comes the ability to make morally significant choices (which include the expression of love and affection.)" ~ wiki.org. I don't understand why you would say that free will is not necessary in order for someone to choose either good or bad. If they have no choice then they are not considered to be responsible for their actions. Even our courts respect this as a point of common law.

If someone programs a robot to help people then the robot hasn't done good, but the good is attributed to the programmer. If someone were to kidnap you and brainwash you into committing an assassination then who would be responsible for the killing?

I agree that with free will any random large group of persons would perform acts of both good and evil, but we can't forget that the people who would be in heaven have supposedly been culled from the pack and so are no longer part of any random group.
SemperVI
Posts: 294
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4/13/2014 11:07:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

I think its a lot less complicated than your making it out to be. That is my take anyway
SemperVI
Posts: 294
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4/13/2014 11:09:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

I think its a lot less complicated than your making it out to be. That is my take anyway
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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4/14/2014 7:33:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 10:30:37 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/13/2014 5:08:24 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

The idea is that we will become like God, as in we will become omnibenevolent. God could commit a sinful act, but he won't because that goes against his omnibenevolent nature. It is the same for all of those in Heaven. In other words, we won't sin because the idea of sin will seem so revolting and utterly out there that we simple won't sin.
So god will reprogramme us? Why not programme properly the first time?

No, but I believe he will cleanse us of our sins and then the Truth of God will be so powerful we will realize how terrible our sins are and how great God is. Sin seperated us from perfection.
bulproof
Posts: 25,297
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4/14/2014 8:03:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:33:22 AM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/13/2014 10:30:37 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/13/2014 5:08:24 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

The idea is that we will become like God, as in we will become omnibenevolent. God could commit a sinful act, but he won't because that goes against his omnibenevolent nature. It is the same for all of those in Heaven. In other words, we won't sin because the idea of sin will seem so revolting and utterly out there that we simple won't sin.
So god will reprogramme us? Why not programme properly the first time?

No, but I believe he will cleanse us of our sins and then the Truth of God will be so powerful we will realize how terrible our sins are and how great God is. Sin seperated us from perfection.

Interesting.
He started out by creating perfect sinless humans with free will and he failed miserably, now you claim he is going to cleanse sinners and get a better result?

I don't think either you or him have thought this through. Not surprising for your god, given his track record, what's your excuse?
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
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4/14/2014 8:46:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 10:32:15 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 4/11/2014 9:26:48 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

Only that which is perfect will enter heaven. After death the physical veil which separates us from the spiritual realm will be removed. And we will either go to hell or heaven (with a possible trip trough purgatory for final purification).

Those who are in heaven will have their true desire met - the beatific vision whereby we see God and enter into his perfect love. Those who desire anything else more than this, will not enter heaven in the first place.

You probably do not believe in it, but evolution causes us to have a desire for sex. It also tells us to hoard resources. It tells us to be selfish, but keep a small interest in the group, but only because their survival will increase your chances at survival. No matter how much you may suppress it, when you look at an attractive person of whatever you are into, you probably feel some lust, though you may confess it later. When you see a new device that will simplify your life or increase your pleasures or comfort, you will desire it. If you live by any money that is not the bare minimum required for you to live decent, then you hoard it from those who need it more. If you save some of your money for retirement, then you desire a comfortable life beyond that which you work.


Yes, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with feelings or desires in themselves, what's more important is what you do with them.

Your standards are ridiculous.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
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4/14/2014 8:53:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

In the exact sense of what we call "free will" no.

But our free will is an inferior sort of free will to the type of will we will have in heaven, or what the angels and demons already experience.

I think Aquinas talks somewhere in his treatise on angels that the reason demons never become angels or vice versa, is because they have a perfect will, and are able to give themselves completely to one thing. So when we die, we'll have a perfect will, and will give ourselves completely and entirely to either loving God, or rejecting God. So it's one act of the will that counts for eternity, since that act of the will is a perfect act of the will.

So we'll be able to see fully all the future effects of our choice, and will be able to give ourselves fully to choosing that. So you won't masturbate in heaven, because you've already chosen not to.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
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4/14/2014 8:56:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 8:46:36 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
At 4/13/2014 10:32:15 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
At 4/11/2014 9:26:48 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

Only that which is perfect will enter heaven. After death the physical veil which separates us from the spiritual realm will be removed. And we will either go to hell or heaven (with a possible trip trough purgatory for final purification).

Those who are in heaven will have their true desire met - the beatific vision whereby we see God and enter into his perfect love. Those who desire anything else more than this, will not enter heaven in the first place.

You probably do not believe in it, but evolution causes us to have a desire for sex. It also tells us to hoard resources. It tells us to be selfish, but keep a small interest in the group, but only because their survival will increase your chances at survival. No matter how much you may suppress it, when you look at an attractive person of whatever you are into, you probably feel some lust, though you may confess it later. When you see a new device that will simplify your life or increase your pleasures or comfort, you will desire it. If you live by any money that is not the bare minimum required for you to live decent, then you hoard it from those who need it more. If you save some of your money for retirement, then you desire a comfortable life beyond that which you work.


Yes, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with feelings or desires in themselves, what's more important is what you do with them.


I mean, there's not necessarily anything "guilty" about having those desires. They might be twisted from how the desires ought to be (and thus be "bad"), but most of the time it's a subconscious desire, so it's not like we're necessarily sinning if we have desires.

But if you realize you're having a lustful desire, and sit there and enjoy it, then yeah, that's where I think the line should be drawn.

Your standards are ridiculous.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
zmikecuber
Posts: 4,093
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4/14/2014 9:01:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here...

"The beatified angels cannot sin. The reason for this is, because their beatitude consists in seeing God through His essence. Now, God's essence is the very essence of goodness. Consequently the angel beholding God is disposed towards God in the same way as anyone else not seeing God is to the common form of goodness. Now it is impossible for any man either to will or to do anything except aiming at what is good; or for him to wish to turn away from good precisely as such. Therefore the beatified angel can neither will nor act, except as aiming towards God. Now whoever wills or acts in this manner cannot sin. Consequently the beatified angel cannot sin."

http://www.newadvent.org...

So whenever we act for something, we always act for what we THINK is "good." Even if we kill ourselves, we're doing something we think is desirable. However, in heaven, when beholding the essence of God, which is goodness in itself, our wills will be directed towards the good, which we now behold fully, which is God.

So yeah, when you're in the presence of God, you pretty much can't sin.
"Delete your fvcking sig" -1hard

"primal man had the habit, when he came into contact with fire, of satisfying the infantile desire connected with it, by putting it out with a stream of his urine... Putting out the fire by micturating was therefore a kind of sexual act with a male, an enjoyment of sexual potency in a homosexual competition."
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/14/2014 10:36:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 1:41:14 PM, ethang5 wrote:


So I work hard now so that my loved ones go to Heaven.

and if some don't make it, will heaven still be heavenly?
or are you the sort who will eventually forget about them?
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
ethang5
Posts: 4,117
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4/14/2014 12:04:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:36:09 AM, perplexed wrote:
At 4/11/2014 1:41:14 PM, ethang5 wrote:


So I work hard now so that my loved ones go to Heaven.

and if some don't make it, will heaven still be heavenly?

Yes. Where ever Jesus is, is heavenly for His beloved.

or are you the sort who will eventually forget about them?

Of course not, both my parents and a brother of mine have died. I still am happy and I still think of them often. And I'm not even yet in the presence of His Royal Majesty.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/14/2014 12:11:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 8:53:30 PM, Lordgrae wrote:
My answer would be no.

If no one is completely free from sin, then all (or almost all) people will sin given the option, at least somewhat. (perhaps not murder, but if masturbation counts....)

If people do not have free will, then they will only sin if they are directed to. Since the religious claim that god is good, then sin must be a byproduct of free will, because god would not tell us to sin. So sin is a byproduct of free will.

If god only wants the sinless or forgiven in heaven, and it is a perfect place, then there is no sin in heaven.

Therefore, there must not be free will in heaven.

I disagree with the biblical notion that heaven is a place we go to after we die. Nah; in actuality heaven is a place we make here on Earth! Heaven wont be perfect and sinless, but it will be better than the world we have now if humans get serious about creating it . . . but it's going to require us to invest a lot of our energy and to put away some of our individual pride. But it's doable!
bulproof
Posts: 25,297
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4/14/2014 12:15:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 9:01:08 AM, zmikecuber wrote:
Here...

"The beatified angels cannot sin. The reason for this is, because their beatitude consists in seeing God through His essence. Now, God's essence is the very essence of goodness. Consequently the angel beholding God is disposed towards God in the same way as anyone else not seeing God is to the common form of goodness. Now it is impossible for any man either to will or to do anything except aiming at what is good; or for him to wish to turn away from good precisely as such. Therefore the beatified angel can neither will nor act, except as aiming towards God. Now whoever wills or acts in this manner cannot sin. Consequently the beatified angel cannot sin."

http://www.newadvent.org...

So whenever we act for something, we always act for what we THINK is "good." Even if we kill ourselves, we're doing something we think is desirable. However, in heaven, when beholding the essence of God, which is goodness in itself, our wills will be directed towards the good, which we now behold fully, which is God.

So yeah, when you're in the presence of God, you pretty much can't sin.

What ever you do.

Don't tell Luci.