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Qur'an faulty

FLMinistries
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4/11/2014 9:56:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Qur'an, Muslims, and Mohammad all declare that "Jesus Christ" was a good man and a prophet of God.

This is a contradiction and shows the Qur'an is out right error in its stance and let me show you how.

Jesus Christ lived, said, and maintained that:
1) He was the Son of God which Islam denies
2) He forgave sins which only God can do
3) He allowed apostles to call Him "The Lord thy God" which is reserved only for God
4) He did miracles which only God could do. (This shows He was of God and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he never did miracles.)
5) He allowed people to worship Him which only worship is reserved for God.
6) He called Himself by the name of God given to Moses "I AM"
7) He told people to believe on Him(not just the Father) and they would have eternal life and again only a statement that God could make.
8) In Revelation 1 John says Jesus reveals things to him and Jesus calls Himself "First & Last", "Alpha & Omega", and "Beginning & End". Terms only God could claim.
9) In Isaiah 9:6 we are told a child shall be given "Christ" and He shall be called "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" again terms only reserved for God.

Now when the Qur'an claims Jesus Christ was just a prophet of God and just a man they commit a huge contradiction.

The claims Christ makes above are only three things and all three contradict the Qur'an.

1) He is a lair
2) He was a lunatic
3) He was the Son of God(who He said He was)

All three contradict the Qur'an. If He was a Liar then He was not a prophet of God. If He was a lunatic then He did not know what He was saying and He was unknowingly lying and not a prophet of God. And thirdly if He was the Son of God as He claimed then He was not just a man and prophet.

No matter which way you cut it the Qur'an is in serious error. Hence the Qur'an is not the book of truth.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,757
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4/11/2014 10:28:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 9:56:39 PM, FLMinistries wrote:
The Qur'an, Muslims, and Mohammad all declare that "Jesus Christ" was a good man and a prophet of God.

This is a contradiction and shows the Qur'an is out right error in its stance and let me show you how.

Jesus Christ lived, said, and maintained that:
1) He was the Son of God which Islam denies
2) He forgave sins which only God can do
3) He allowed apostles to call Him "The Lord thy God" which is reserved only for God
4) He did miracles which only God could do. (This shows He was of God and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he never did miracles.)
5) He allowed people to worship Him which only worship is reserved for God.
6) He called Himself by the name of God given to Moses "I AM"
7) He told people to believe on Him(not just the Father) and they would have eternal life and again only a statement that God could make.
8) In Revelation 1 John says Jesus reveals things to him and Jesus calls Himself "First & Last", "Alpha & Omega", and "Beginning & End". Terms only God could claim.
9) In Isaiah 9:6 we are told a child shall be given "Christ" and He shall be called "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" again terms only reserved for God.

Now when the Qur'an claims Jesus Christ was just a prophet of God and just a man they commit a huge contradiction.

The claims Christ makes above are only three things and all three contradict the Qur'an.

1) He is a lair
2) He was a lunatic
3) He was the Son of God(who He said He was)

All three contradict the Qur'an. If He was a Liar then He was not a prophet of God. If He was a lunatic then He did not know what He was saying and He was unknowingly lying and not a prophet of God. And thirdly if He was the Son of God as He claimed then He was not just a man and prophet.

No matter which way you cut it the Qur'an is in serious error. Hence the Qur'an is not the book of truth.

Response: Your own Bible shows that Jesus himself never says "I am God" or "worship me" Instead he says in John 5:30 that he can of his own self do nothing and seeks on the will of the Father. And in Acts 2:22 it clearly states that Jesus is a man approved by God through miracles and Wonders which God did by him. Clearly Jesus is a prophet.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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4/11/2014 11:55:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 9:56:39 PM, FLMinistries wrote:
The Qur'an, Muslims, and Mohammad all declare that "Jesus Christ" was a good man and a prophet of God.

This is a contradiction and shows the Qur'an is out right error in its stance and let me show you how.

Jesus Christ lived, said, and maintained that:
1) He was the Son of God which Islam denies

No, we don't deny all the meaning of son of God, but the meaning commonly believed by Christians, they believe Jesus is progeny of God, not like any other worshipper of God.
2) He forgave sins which only God can do

If God allowed him there is no issue, after all he is His messenger, isn't he ?!

3) He allowed apostles to call Him "The Lord thy God" which is reserved only for God

That's not true that is was then reserved to God !

4) He did miracles which only God could do. (This shows He was of God and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he never did miracles.)

He still said he couldn't do anything on his own !! and for Islam, at least this spared us from your confusion, but Mohamed still did miracles by the will of God.

5) He allowed people to worship Him which only worship is reserved for God.

Josef was worshiped too (it was a jest of respect or a testimony of superiority) not saying he actually was the creator.

6) He called Himself by the name of God given to Moses "I AM"

I think everybody does that !!" I am " sure.

7) He told people to believe on Him(not just the Father) and they would have eternal life and again only a statement that God could make.

Yes Muslims too have to believe in him and in every prophet of God in addition to believing in God, this doesn't make prophets of God gods!!

8) In Revelation 1 John says Jesus reveals things to him and Jesus calls Himself "First & Last", "Alpha & Omega", and "Beginning & End". Terms only God could claim.

You have to put these in context, bring the scripture here please.

9) In Isaiah 9:6 we are told a child shall be given "Christ" and He shall be called "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" again terms only reserved for God.

No, all these terms can be accepted for a man and not make him God the creator.

Now when the Qur'an claims Jesus Christ was just a prophet of God and just a man they commit a huge contradiction.

Not really, Jesus himself worshiped God and didn't think of himself as God, as he said to his mother to tell the disciples that he will ascent to his Father and their father, and his God and their God, if there was only this verse it would be enough to deny deity to Jesus, but you are blinded by Paul!

The claims Christ makes above are only three things and all three contradict the Qur'an.

1) He is a lair
2) He was a lunatic
3) He was the Son of God(who He said He was)

son of God in the sense you believing all people are sons of god, not in the new sense invented by Paul.

All three contradict the Qur'an. If He was a Liar then He was not a prophet of God. If He was a lunatic then He did not know what He was saying and He was unknowingly lying and not a prophet of God. And thirdly if He was the Son of God as He claimed then He was not just a man and prophet.

It's just you being blind to truth.

No matter which way you cut it the Qur'an is in serious error. Hence the Qur'an is not the book of truth.

so you take some un-authentically transmitted books and because you think they can't be consistent with Quran then the Quran is wrong ?! what logic is this ?

Quran is consistent with Gospels, but inconsistent with your belief and understanding.
FLMinistries
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4/12/2014 2:33:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 11:55:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:

Jesus Christ lived, said, and maintained that:
1) He was the Son of God which Islam denies

No, we don't deny all the meaning of son of God, but the meaning commonly believed by Christians, they believe Jesus is progeny of God, not like any other worshipper of God.

Jesus Christ taught and believed He was God in the flesh hence why we believe this.

2) He forgave sins which only God can do

If God allowed him there is no issue, after all he is His messenger, isn't he ?!

Show where Mohammad was allowed to forgive sins and then show where else in scripture where prophets forgave sins. Does one forgive sins in the name of the prophet or God?

3) He allowed apostles to call Him "The Lord thy God" which is reserved only for God

That's not true that is was then reserved to God !

Lord thy God is only reserved for God. Again show where else MEN are called Lord thy God in the Bible and Qur'an.

4) He did miracles which only God could do. (This shows He was of God and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he never did miracles.)

He still said he couldn't do anything on his own !! and for Islam, at least this spared us from your confusion, but Mohamed still did miracles by the will of God.

Mohammad never did miracles and was rejected by comtemperaries of his time because he couldn't. What miracles did Mohammad do?

5) He allowed people to worship Him which only worship is reserved for God.

Josef was worshiped too (it was a jest of respect or a testimony of superiority) not saying he actually was the creator.

Josef? Joseph was not worshipped by Israelites. Joseph was worshipped by Pagans who worshipped men normally and hardly an example supporting your notion.

6) He called Himself by the name of God given to Moses "I AM"

I think everybody does that !!" I am " sure.

So you say before Abraham was "I am" as Jesus did? A mighty big statement there.

7) He told people to believe on Him(not just the Father) and they would have eternal life and again only a statement that God could make.

Yes Muslims too have to believe in him and in every prophet of God in addition to believing in God, this doesn't make prophets of God gods!!

So your Mohammad says believe in Him? Never heard or read that one. He said believe the words of Allah but not IN HIM. He said believe the words given to him but IN HIM. Biblical prophets said believe the words given by God to them but not IN THEM. They taught the opposite actually. Jesus said believe IN HIM separate from the Father.

8) In Revelation 1 John says Jesus reveals things to him and Jesus calls Himself "First & Last", "Alpha & Omega", and "Beginning & End". Terms only God could claim.

You have to put these in context, bring the scripture here please.

Sure

Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

9) In Isaiah 9:6 we are told a child shall be given "Christ" and He shall be called "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" again terms only reserved for God.

No, all these terms can be accepted for a man and not make him God the creator.

Men can be called "The mighty God; The everlasting Father"? Yea right.

Now when the Qur'an claims Jesus Christ was just a prophet of God and just a man they commit a huge contradiction.

Not really, Jesus himself worshiped God and didn't think of himself as God, as he said to his mother to tell the disciples that he will ascent to his Father and their father, and his God and their God, if there was only this verse it would be enough to deny deity to Jesus, but you are blinded by Paul!

Jesus certainly thought He was God and only denial would suggest less. I have arms and legs and a voice which are me and when you hear me or see my arms and legs move you say Hey that's me. As such God the Father is God but so is Christ as Christ is the right arm of God and His Word(voice) and besides Him there is no other.

The claims Christ makes above are only three things and all three contradict the Qur'an.

1) He is a lair
2) He was a lunatic
3) He was the Son of God(who He said He was)

son of God in the sense you believing all people are sons of god, not in the new sense invented by Paul.

Well Paul also claims to be an apostle of Christ. Peter supported Pauls gospel as well as all the apostles and you then have a huge problem because it is not just Paul but all the apostles who supported Paul.

All three contradict the Qur'an. If He was a Liar then He was not a prophet of God. If He was a lunatic then He did not know what He was saying and He was unknowingly lying and not a prophet of God. And thirdly if He was the Son of God as He claimed then He was not just a man and prophet.


It's just you being blind to truth.

No actually you have no idea what the truth is. You believe in a book and prophet six hundred years after Christ. Thousands of years after Abraham. Tell me why does Abraham sacrifice to God and yet Islam claims to serve the same God and yet do not perform the same worship as Abraham? Christian answer that because Jesus Christ is our sacrifice but Muslims have no sacrifice and that shows. Why do Muslims worship a god(Allah) that was worshipped as a moon god atop of a pagan pantheon for hundreds of years before Islam by Arabs. Hence the cresent moon on Islams flag in which the same symbol was used hundreds of years before Islam by Arbas worshipping a moon god as well as Babylonians who worshipped the same god. This is known historical fact. Mohammads family worshipped the same moon god before Islam. Amazing what little Muslims know about their origin and prophet.

No matter which way you cut it the Qur'an is in serious error. Hence the Qur'an is not the book of truth.

so you take some un-authentically transmitted books and because you think they can't be consistent with Quran then the Quran is wrong ?! what logic is this ?

Unauthentic? Historians would disagree. What authenticity does the Qur'an have other then ONE man saying it is so? NONE.

Quran is consistent with Gospels, but inconsistent with your belief and understanding.

Oh...really....where is it consistant? I'll wait on that one.
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,489
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4/12/2014 2:54:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 9:56:39 PM, FLMinistries wrote:
The Qur'an, Muslims, and Mohammad all declare that "Jesus Christ" was a good man and a prophet of God.

This is a contradiction and shows the Qur'an is out right error in its stance and let me show you how.

Jesus Christ lived, said, and maintained that:
1) He was the Son of God which Islam denies

"Son of God" was a common expression among jews, it means "a pious person" . for examples in the bible:
- the LORD hath said unto me (David the king), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee".
- Israel is my son, even my firstborn
- Solomon is God's son
- "Adam, which was the son of God.

So isreal,Adam,solomon and david are all his sons. In the time of the Quran came, this expression is prohibited because many poeple took it literally.

2) He forgave sins which only God can do

Jesus forgave sins because:
Matthew 28:18 : And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
So the authority to forgive is given to him by God its not his own power:
John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

3) He allowed apostles to call Him "The Lord thy God" which is reserved only for God

Any reference?

4) He did miracles which only God could do. (This shows He was of God and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he never did miracles.)

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Jesus says: John 17:6-8
"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

All his power to do mircales is given to him by the Father.

"and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he 'never did miracles'." - that is a big lie.

5) He allowed people to worship Him which only worship is reserved for God.

Daniel 2:46-49
king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel...

so Prophet Daniel did NOT reject the worship that was given to him, He did not rebuke the king, he did nothing, he accepted the worship, so therefore Daniel is God.

6) He called Himself by the name of God given to Moses "I AM"

6) "I AM"
Before Exodus 3:14, lets go back to verse 3:13:

13 "Then Moses said to God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you," and they ask me, "What is his name?" what shall I say to them?"

14 God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."

in Hebrow its says "i will be what ever i will be". its not " I Am". Hebrow -אהיה אשר אהיה
"(אהיה/i will be) /that/which/who/אשר )". (and yes i know hebrow).
the problem is must translations say "i Am" instead of "i will be". in the context we see that when Moses (pbuh) asked he replied "Im what ever im".

nevertheless, the word "im" in Exodus 3:14 and what Jesus said is not the same word (in Greek EGO EIMI & HO ON). If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost. now lets examine what Jesus said.

How many people existed before Abraham? In the Bible Jeremiah being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. when Jesus says "before Abraham was born, I am", he was existing in the knowledge of God, everybody were there.

7) He told people to believe on Him(not just the Father) and they would have eternal life and again only a statement that God could make.

Wrong. For every prophet at his time had this privilege to give eternal life through them (believing in them and in God).

8) In Revelation 1 John says Jesus reveals things to him and Jesus calls Himself "First & Last", "Alpha & Omega", and "Beginning & End". Terms only God could claim.

https://www.youtube.com... - cant explain it better.

9) In Isaiah 9:6 we are told a child shall be given "Christ" and He shall be called "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" again terms only reserved for God.


ISAIAH 9:6-7:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty Gd, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the Etrnl of hosts will perform this.

- When did Jesus ever run any government?
- When was Jesus ever called a Wonderful Counselor, or a Mighty Gd, or an Everlasting Father, or a Prince of Peace in the new testment?

Now when the Qur'an claims Jesus Christ was just a prophet of God and just a man they commit a huge contradiction.

The claims Christ makes above are only three things and all three contradict the Qur'an.

1) He is a lair
2) He was a lunatic
3) He was the Son of God(who He said He was)

All three contradict the Qur'an. If He was a Liar then He was not a prophet of God. If He was a lunatic then He did not know what He was saying and He was unknowingly lying and not a prophet of God. And thirdly if He was the Son of God as He claimed then He was not just a man and prophet.

No matter which way you cut it the Qur'an is in serious error. Hence the Qur'an is not the book of truth.

To talk about the Quran you need some knowlage about it and not writing nonsense.

According to Quran:
Jesus never said "Im God" or "worship me" - which parallel to the bible.
he did his mircales by God power, not by him self. - same for the bible.
Jesus was the Messiah & a Prophet - in bible too.

So i dont know where you coming from...
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
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4/12/2014 3:10:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
FLMinistries 2 questions for you

1) If Jesus is God, how he didnt know about the hour?
Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[a] but the Father only

God is all-knowing,Jesus fails this main qualification and he himself makes a distinction between everything and the Father, there is no room for Jesus or the holy ghost as christains claim he is God too.

2)if Jesus is God, how can he didnt say even one time "im God" or "Worship me"?

In the old testmant we can see God claiming to be "God" many many times repeating himself, yet not once in the new testment with Jesus. Had Jesus been God, he would have told people to worship him. Truly, he did the exact opposite.
Never fart near dog
FLMinistries
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4/12/2014 3:57:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 2:54:49 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
Jesus Christ lived, said, and maintained that:
1) He was the Son of God which Islam denies

"Son of God" was a common expression among jews, it means "a pious person" . for examples in the bible:

Really why didn't they not use it in their Old Testament scripture?

- the LORD hath said unto me (David the king), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee".

This is talking about the Messiah(Christ) notice the whole chapter. Almost all commentaries agree.

- Israel is my son, even my firstborn

Israel is a nation and indeed the children of God. Not a person as Christ was.

- Solomon is God's son

Show the scripture for this

- "Adam, which was the son of God.

Yes Adam was. Adam was the first man created by God but scripture says:
1 Corinthians 15:47
"The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man(Jesus Christ) is the Lord from heaven.

So isreal,Adam,solomon and david are all his sons. In the time of the Quran came, this expression is prohibited because many poeple took it literally.

Muslims prohibited it, not Jews or Christians.

2) He forgave sins which only God can do

Jesus forgave sins because:
Matthew 28:18 : And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

So, all authority was given Mohammad and any other prophet? Scripture to show this?

So the authority to forgive is given to him by God its not his own power:

I do not disagree. Does not change my right arm do I give power and yet my right arm is still me.

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Again correct as my right arm does what I send it to do yet it is me as Jesus is God.

3) He allowed apostles to call Him "The Lord thy God" which is reserved only for God

Any reference?

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

4) He did miracles which only God could do. (This shows He was of God and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he never did miracles.)

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Jesus says: John 17:6-8
"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.

All his power to do mircales is given to him by the Father.

Does not disprove my point or disagrees with my stance, I agree.

"and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he 'never did miracles'." - that is a big lie.

Actually no it is not a lie and if it was not then you'd show the miracles. Mohammad was rejected as a prophet because he could not do miracles in front of people as all other prophets before him could.

5) He allowed people to worship Him which only worship is reserved for God.

Daniel 2:46-49
king Nebuchadnezzar fell upon his face, and worshipped Daniel...

Nebuchadnezzar was a pagan and worshipped men as he himself sought worship. Jews never worshipped men and never taught men to do so.

so Prophet Daniel did NOT reject the worship that was given to him, He did not rebuke the king, he did nothing, he accepted the worship, so therefore Daniel is God.

Oh... apply a pagan king to Jews who only worshipped God. To make this point you must show that Daniel wanted worship. Plus the fact that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who refused the same of a man worship you contend.

6) He called Himself by the name of God given to Moses "I AM"

in Hebrow its says "i will be what ever i will be". its not " I Am".

Actually it "I AM" means the same thing.

nevertheless

I know it because "I AM" means the same thing.

the word "im" in Exodus 3:14 and what Jesus said is not the same word (in Greek EGO EIMI & HO ON). If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God:

Actually He was if you would have looked further "HO ON" means "THE GOD".

How many people existed before Abraham? In the Bible Jeremiah being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart;I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Yet no one says that his pre-human existence qualifies him for deity. when Jesus says "before Abraham was born, I am", he was existing in the knowledge of God, everybody were there.

Stretch. God relays HE knows before we are born but that does not relate to Jesus saying HE WAS before Abraham. Jeremiah did not say HE was before Abraham and in fact no prophet did except Jesus.

7) He told people to believe on Him(not just the Father) and they would have eternal life and again only a statement that God could make.

Wrong. For every prophet at his time had this privilege to give eternal life through them (believing in them and in God).

Really show one who claimed this.

8) In Revelation 1 John says Jesus reveals things to him and Jesus calls Himself "First & Last", "Alpha & Omega", and "Beginning & End". Terms only God could claim.

9) In Isaiah 9:6 we are told a child shall be given "Christ" and He shall be called "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" again terms only reserved for God.

- When did Jesus ever run any government?

This is referring to His return.

- When was Jesus ever called a Wonderful Counselor, or a Mighty Gd, or an Everlasting Father, or a Prince of Peace in the new testment?

In Revelations; 2 Thessalonians 3:16; Matthew 21:15; Romans 11:34

No matter which way you cut it the Qur'an is in serious error. Hence the Qur'an is not the book of truth.

To talk about the Quran you need some knowlage about it and not writing nonsense.

I know the Qur'an buddy :(

According to Quran:
Jesus never said "Im God" or "worship me" - which parallel to the bible.
he did his mircales by God power, not by him self. - same for the bible.
Jesus was the Messiah & a Prophet - in bible too.

Show us where the Qur'an says Jesus is the Messiah. And if it does(which I do not think it does) it contradicts your whole belief in Him and therefore your religion. If He is the Messiah then where do you get that concept? Jews. Then which you fail to recongnize as they the Messiah which came. What was the Messiah for? To bring peace between God and man. For what? Mans sin. How does the Qur'an deal with sin? It does not. It contends man works for salvation even though he is sinful and has not relationship with God. All of which is in contrast which the Bible and Jewish teaching. The Qur'an is all messed up in logic.

So i dont know where you coming

Well I know that your in a false religion serving a pagan moon god whom your prophet inserted as your only god. Even though Allah was the name of a moon god Arabs and Babylonians worshipped for hundreds of years before Islam. Tough luck.
POPOO5560
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4/12/2014 6:41:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 3:57:17 AM, FLMinistries wrote:

Really why didn't they not use it in their Old Testament scripture?
Yes Adam was. Adam was the first man created by God but scripture says:

So adam is son of God.
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair..
Job 1:6 The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God!

You said Jesus is the only son of God. there are plenty.

I do not disagree. Does not change my right arm do I give power and yet my right arm is still me.
Again correct as my right arm does what I send it to do yet it is me as Jesus is God.

Dude you missing the point. God owns his power, God's isnt given by somebody else. Jesus says by his own he cant do nothing.

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

https://www.youtube.com... :)

Nebuchadnezzar was a pagan and worshipped men as he himself sought worship. Jews never worshipped men and never taught men to do so
Oh... apply a pagan king to Jews who only worshipped God. To make this point you must show that Daniel wanted worship. Plus the fact that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who refused the same of a man worship you contend.

You evading the situation. the matter is why he didnt rebuke him when he worshiped him. its not about pagan or jews.

I know it because "I AM" means the same thing.

You dont know hebrew and its not the same thing.

Actually He was if you would have looked further "HO ON" means "THE GOD".

Jesus says IM not GOD. what you trying to confuse us.

Stretch. God relays HE knows before we are born but that does not relate to Jesus saying HE WAS before Abraham. Jeremiah did not say HE was before Abraham and in fact no prophet did except Jesus.

Jeremiah is said to have been made a Prophet before his birth.how could Jeremiah be a prophet even when he didnt born yet? in what form? in the knowledge of God, as Jesus was.

This is referring to His return.
In Revelations; 2 Thessalonians 3:16; Matthew 21:15; Romans 11:34

who called him the everlasting father? non.

I know the Qur'an buddy :(

no you dont know.

Show us where the Qur'an says Jesus is the Messiah.

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say anything concerning Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers . . ." (Quran 4:171)

And if it does(which I do not think it does) it contradicts your whole belief in Him and therefore your religion.

?

If He is the Messiah then where do you get that concept? Jews. Then which you fail to recongnize as they the Messiah which came. What was the Messiah for? To bring peace between God and man. For what? Mans sin. How does the Qur'an deal with sin? It does not. It contends man works for salvation even though he is sinful and has not relationship with God.

You dont know nothing about Islam so dont spread nonsense here. his is your understanding of islam?

All of which is in contrast which the Bible and Jewish teaching. The Qur'an is all messed up in logic.

haaaaa what you talking about?

Well I know that your in a false religion serving a pagan moon god whom your prophet inserted as your only god. Even though Allah was the name of a moon god Arabs and Babylonians worshipped for hundreds of years before Islam. Tough luck.

"pagan moon god". you are so embarrassing only to yourself. this stupid accusation chasing after a ghost. if you read your Bible in Arabic the name of God is "ALLAH". how embarrassing. its only in Arabic, in hebrew its "alohim" ( aloh=allah/god) + (im=plural of respect). you mocking your own God stupid.

us me see you have little understanding of the bible, quran and islam.
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FLMinistries
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4/12/2014 2:11:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 6:41:38 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 3:57:17 AM, FLMinistries wrote:

Really why didn't they not use it in their Old Testament scripture?
Yes Adam was. Adam was the first man created by God but scripture says:

So adam is son of God.
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair..
Job 1:6 The sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God!

You said Jesus is the only son of God. there are plenty.

I did not say Jesus was the only Son of God. Angels are sons of God as well as the verse you just posted say. Job 38:4-7 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" No where in the Old Testament are man called sons unless it refers to a future redemption by the Messiah.

I do not disagree. Does not change my right arm do I give power and yet my right arm is still me.
Again correct as my right arm does what I send it to do yet it is me as Jesus is God.

Dude you missing the point. God owns his power, God's isnt given by somebody else. Jesus says by his own he cant do nothing.

Indeed like my arm cannot function without me. Yet my arm is me as Jesus is God but He cannot function without the Father like my arm cannot without me. No other but Jesus can claim to be the Word of God and Right arm of God.

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

https://www.youtube.com... :)

I do not care about Youtube videos they are not sources for evidence.

Nebuchadnezzar was a pagan and worshipped men as he himself sought worship. Jews never worshipped men and never taught men to do so
Oh... apply a pagan king to Jews who only worshipped God. To make this point you must show that Daniel wanted worship. Plus the fact that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego who refused the same of a man worship you contend.

You evading the situation. the matter is why he didnt rebuke him when he worshiped him. its not about pagan or jews.

It is indeed about pagans and monotheist. Why would Daniel rebuke him when the king worshipped as a pagan? The king did not adhere to Jewish belief and law and hence it would be unlawful for Daniel to rebuke the king.

I know it because "I AM" means the same thing.

You dont know hebrew and its not the same thing.

I do know Hebrew and in any language it means the same thing. You need to stop acting like you are all-knowing and go learn. You do not even properly capitalize and spell yet you are telling me your fluent in Hebrew. Nice try.

Actually He was if you would have looked further "HO ON" means "THE GOD".

Jesus says IM not GOD. what you trying to confuse us.

Jesus never said He was not God so appears your just flat out lying. "HO ON" means "The God" plain and simple.

Jeremiah is said to have been made a Prophet before his birth.how could Jeremiah be a prophet even when he didnt born yet? in what form? in the knowledge of God, as Jesus was.

Actually God was saying that not Jeremiah. That is why they are prophecies given BY GOD.

This is referring to His return.
In Revelations; 2 Thessalonians 3:16; Matthew 21:15; Romans 11:34

who called him the everlasting father? non.

Isaiah did. Revelations calls Him everlasting, first and last, beginning and end, and Alpha and Omega.

I know the Qur'an buddy :(

no you dont know.

If you say so....Ignorance.

Show us where the Qur'an says Jesus is the Messiah.

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say anything concerning Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers . . ." (Quran 4:171)

Ah... Good glad you admit that. An Messiah is a Savior and exactly what the New Testament says about Jesus. He was the awaited redeemer of the Jews, to be sent by God to free them and the world. Therefore here is twice Qur'an contradicts itself. How could Jesus Christ be the Messiah prophetic about in the Old Testament(meaning to give Him all attributes given in the Old Testament) and then only be a man when the Old Testament gives the Messiah Godlike attributes? Do you even know what Messiah means and what it is?

And if it does(which I do not think it does) it contradicts your whole belief in Him and therefore your religion.

?

Are you telling me you serve Christ, declare Him your Savior, and the means of your salvation? That is what the Messiah is and was hence the Qur'an wants its cake and ice cream too. They want to call Christ the Messiah while denying all the attributes given to the Messiah.

If He is the Messiah then where do you get that concept? Jews. Then which you fail to recognize as they the Messiah which came. What was the Messiah for? To bring peace between God and man. For what? Mans sin. How does the Qur'an deal with sin? It does not. It contends man works for salvation even though he is sinful and has not relationship with God.

You dont know nothing about Islam so dont spread nonsense here. his is your understanding of islam?

I know plenty about Islam buddy, read the Qur'an and learned from Muslims themselves. Hence it is only nonsense because you have no answer to why you call Christ the Messiah yet either do not know what the Messiah was prophesied to do and what Messiah means or you deliberately are a liar, either or.

All of which is in contrast which the Bible and Jewish teaching. The Qur'an is all messed up in logic.

haaaaa what you talking about?

I am talking about you claim things and then contradict that claim. You say one thing then turn around and say another. You want to accept Christ as much as you can to fool people and then deny what you have claimed to accept. Anyone with any common sense would see right thru it.

"pagan moon god". you are so embarrassing only to yourself. this stupid accusation chasing after a ghost. if you read your Bible in Arabic the name of God is "ALLAH". how embarrassing. its only in Arabic, in hebrew its "alohim" ( aloh=allah/god) + (im=plural of respect). you mocking your own God stupid.

It is Elohim and no Alohim. Who looks stupid? You do not even know your own language Arabic. "Ilah" means God in Arabic. "Al'ilah means "The God" and neither are Allah. Seriously fellow do some reading and study. Your soul depends on it. You have no idea whom you are serving. Before the advent of Islam, the Arabs referred to Pagan deities, such as Hubul (the major god of the Kaa'bah and the city of Mecca), as "allah". Likewise, the English term "god" can refer to the God of the Bible or to other deities such as Allah, Brahma, Osiris, Shiva, or Krishna who ARE NOT the same as the God of the Bible. Hence forth when a Christian uses Allah to refer to God they are serving the Bible God but the Islam Allah and the Christian Arab Allah are not the same by person, attributes, description, and purpose. They are in exact contrast as such the God of the Qur'an calls himself the 'best deceiver' multiple times yet the Biblical God says He cannot lie or deceive, ever.

us me see you have little understanding of the bible, quran and islam.

It seems you have no learned what words to capitalize and how to spell correctly then telling other people they do not know even deeper things than spelling
jh1234l
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4/12/2014 4:11:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 9:56:39 PM, FLMinistries wrote:
The Qur'an, Muslims, and Mohammad all declare that "Jesus Christ" was a good man and a prophet of God.

This is a contradiction and shows the Qur'an is out right error in its stance and let me show you how.

Jesus Christ lived, said, and maintained that:
1) He was the Son of God which Islam denies
2) He forgave sins which only God can do
3) He allowed apostles to call Him "The Lord thy God" which is reserved only for God
4) He did miracles which only God could do. (This shows He was of God and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he never did miracles.)
5) He allowed people to worship Him which only worship is reserved for God.
6) He called Himself by the name of God given to Moses "I AM"
7) He told people to believe on Him(not just the Father) and they would have eternal life and again only a statement that God could make.
8) In Revelation 1 John says Jesus reveals things to him and Jesus calls Himself "First & Last", "Alpha & Omega", and "Beginning & End". Terms only God could claim.
9) In Isaiah 9:6 we are told a child shall be given "Christ" and He shall be called "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" again terms only reserved for God.

Now when the Qur'an claims Jesus Christ was just a prophet of God and just a man they commit a huge contradiction.

The claims Christ makes above are only three things and all three contradict the Qur'an.

1) He is a lair
2) He was a lunatic
3) He was the Son of God(who He said He was)

All three contradict the Qur'an. If He was a Liar then He was not a prophet of God. If He was a lunatic then He did not know what He was saying and He was unknowingly lying and not a prophet of God. And thirdly if He was the Son of God as He claimed then He was not just a man and prophet.

No matter which way you cut it the Qur'an is in serious error. Hence the Qur'an is not the book of truth.

Premise 1: I assume the Bible is true.
Premise 2: The Qur'an contradicts with the bible.
Conclusion: The Qur'an is false.

You are assuming that Jesus in the Bible is the "true" depiction of him without any proof.
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Stephen_Hawkins
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4/12/2014 4:37:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 4:11:41 PM, jh1234l wrote:
Premise 1: I assume the Bible is true.
Premise 2: The Qur'an contradicts with the bible.
Conclusion: The Qur'an is false.

You are assuming that Jesus in the Bible is the "true" depiction of him without any proof.

I'm amazed the conversation took so long for someone to say this.
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Fruitytree
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4/12/2014 5:18:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 2:33:30 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:55:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:

Jesus Christ lived, said, and maintained that:
1) He was the Son of God which Islam denies: :
Jesus Christ taught and believed He was God in the flesh hence why we believe this.

Where did he claim that? in the Gospel or in Paul influenced books? (scripture please)

2) He forgave sins which only God can do
Show where Mohammad was allowed to forgive sins and then show where else in scripture where prophets forgave sins. Does one forgive sins in the name of the prophet or God?

In the name of God, if you happen to be a prophet and God allowed you of course. He forgave Meccans who repressed and oppressed and killed Muslims in the beginning, when he was finally stronger he forgave them.

3) He allowed apostles to call Him "The Lord thy God" which is reserved only for God

Ok please bring scripture for this one as well.

4) He did miracles which only God could do. (This shows He was of God and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he never did miracles.)

He still said he couldn't do anything on his own !! and for Islam, at least this spared us from your confusion, but Mohamed still did miracles by the will of God.

Mohammad never did miracles and was rejected by comtemperaries of his time because he couldn't. What miracles did Mohammad do?

Was Jesus refected because his miracles weren't enough good ?! come on, you should know that is has nothing to do with miracles.

Yes for Mohammed miracles, some are here :

http://www.islamweb.net...

5) He allowed people to worship Him which only worship is reserved for God.

About Joseph, he was worshipped even by his father and brothers, who bowed down to him, I don't memorise the bible by heart I just know it's somewhere in Genesis.

6) He called Himself by the name of God given to Moses "I AM"

I think everybody does that !!" I am " sure.

So you say before Abraham was "I am" as Jesus did? A mighty big statement there.

No; I'm saying not every time a person says " I am" should you conclude he claimed to be God!!

7) He told people to believe on Him(not just the Father) and they would have eternal life and again only a statement that God could make.

Yes Muslims too have to believe in him and in every prophet of God in addition to believing in God, this doesn't make prophets of God gods!!

So your Mohammad says believe in Him? Never heard or read that one. He said believe the words of Allah but not IN HIM. He said believe the words given to him but IN HIM. Biblical prophets said believe the words given by God to them but not IN THEM. They taught the opposite actually. Jesus said believe IN HIM separate from the Father.

Yes testimony of faith to enter Islam is ( I bear witness that that there is no god worthy of worship except God, and Mohamed is a messenger of God" you can't be a Muslim and not believe in Mohamed, actually even if you disbelieve in Jesus or other prophets you can't be a Muslim.

8) "Alpha & Omega"

Sure

Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Thank you it's clearer now. Jesus is the word of God, so him saying Alpha and omega is not about his own but about God, God gave it unto him.

it's like in Quran, Quran was said by Mohamed to the people, but to him revealed by God, you find verses like this one :

His is the dominion of the heavens and the earth; He giveth life and He causeth to die; and He is over everything Potent. (2) He is the First and the Last, and the OutWard and the inward, and He is of everything the Knower. (3) He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days; then He established Himself on the Throne. He knoweth whatsoever plungeth into the earth and whatsoever cometh forth therefrom, and whatsoever descendeth from the heaven and whatsoever ascendeth thereto; and He is with you wheresoever ye be. And Allah is of whatsoever ye work a Beholder. (4) His is the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and Unto Allah will all affairs be brought back. (5) chapter 57 The iron.

If a Muslim was dumb he would say Mohammed is saying he is God! but the Quran is the word of God, like Jesus is the word of God. so all these verses are said about God, not about the prophet.

9) In Isaiah 9:6 we are told a child shall be given "Christ" and He shall be called "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace" again terms only reserved for God.

No, all these terms can be accepted for a man and not make him God the creator.

Men can be called "The mighty God; The everlasting Father"? Yea right.

god has two words for it in semantic languages, one of which can be used for men, so you need to go back to Hebrew and see what is said.

Now when the Qur'an claims Jesus Christ was just a prophet of God and just a man they commit a huge contradiction.

Not really, Jesus himself worshiped God and didn't think of himself as God, as he said to his mother to tell the disciples that he will ascent to his Father and their father, and his God and their God, if there was only this verse it would be enough to deny deity to Jesus, but you are blinded by Paul!

Jesus certainly thought He was God and only denial would suggest less. I have arms and legs and a voice which are me and when you hear me or see my arms and legs move you say Hey that's me. As such God the Father is God but so is Christ as Christ is the right arm of God and His Word(voice) and besides Him there is no other.

Hahaha, the right arm is used for something else, why do you mix up everything ?!

Jesus always compared himself to Prophets, to men, never to God. and he made it very clear , for people who understand, tat he was a messenger from God to them and that they have to follow him as he is the way to God, like all previous prophets did!

I don't say he is "just a prophet," because he is a great prophet, he is the Messiah, the word of God and a spirit from God, so he is amongst the most important prophets of God, but he definitely isn't God, and never claimed to be!
bulproof
Posts: 25,290
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4/12/2014 11:33:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 3:10:31 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
FLMinistries 2 questions for you

1) If Jesus is God, how he didnt know about the hour?
Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[a] but the Father only

God is all-knowing,Jesus fails this main qualification and he himself makes a distinction between everything and the Father, there is no room for Jesus or the holy ghost as christains claim he is God too.

2)if Jesus is God, how can he didnt say even one time "im God" or "Worship me"?

In the old testmant we can see God claiming to be "God" many many times repeating himself, yet not once in the new testment with Jesus. Had Jesus been God, he would have told people to worship him. Truly, he did the exact opposite.

Why did muhammad think that mary was a part of the trinity? You guys hate that don't you. Mr Sulu initiate squirm effect warp 8.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/12/2014 11:40:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 11:33:27 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/12/2014 3:10:31 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
FLMinistries 2 questions for you

1) If Jesus is God, how he didnt know about the hour?
Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[a] but the Father only

God is all-knowing,Jesus fails this main qualification and he himself makes a distinction between everything and the Father, there is no room for Jesus or the holy ghost as christains claim he is God too.

2)if Jesus is God, how can he didnt say even one time "im God" or "Worship me"?

In the old testmant we can see God claiming to be "God" many many times repeating himself, yet not once in the new testment with Jesus. Had Jesus been God, he would have told people to worship him. Truly, he did the exact opposite.

Why did muhammad think that mary was a part of the trinity? You guys hate that don't you. Mr Sulu initiate squirm effect warp 8.

The Christians here are above your little boy type of attacks. It only gives them strength. And it isn't giving you the satisfaction you are craving.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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4/12/2014 11:57:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 11:33:27 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/12/2014 3:10:31 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
FLMinistries 2 questions for you

1) If Jesus is God, how he didnt know about the hour?
Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[a] but the Father only

God is all-knowing,Jesus fails this main qualification and he himself makes a distinction between everything and the Father, there is no room for Jesus or the holy ghost as christains claim he is God too.

2)if Jesus is God, how can he didnt say even one time "im God" or "Worship me"?

In the old testmant we can see God claiming to be "God" many many times repeating himself, yet not once in the new testment with Jesus. Had Jesus been God, he would have told people to worship him. Truly, he did the exact opposite.

Why did muhammad think that mary was a part of the trinity? You guys hate that don't you. Mr Sulu initiate squirm effect warp 8.

No he did not think this nor did he say it.

But in Quran God said that she too was worshiped besides God. meaning prayed and bowed down to, or any kind of worship some Christians do, that they should only do with God.
bulproof
Posts: 25,290
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4/13/2014 12:00:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 11:57:37 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:33:27 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/12/2014 3:10:31 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
FLMinistries 2 questions for you

1) If Jesus is God, how he didnt know about the hour?
Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[a] but the Father only

God is all-knowing,Jesus fails this main qualification and he himself makes a distinction between everything and the Father, there is no room for Jesus or the holy ghost as christains claim he is God too.

2)if Jesus is God, how can he didnt say even one time "im God" or "Worship me"?

In the old testmant we can see God claiming to be "God" many many times repeating himself, yet not once in the new testment with Jesus. Had Jesus been God, he would have told people to worship him. Truly, he did the exact opposite.

Why did muhammad think that mary was a part of the trinity? You guys hate that don't you. Mr Sulu initiate squirm effect warp 8.

No he did not think this nor did he say it.

But in Quran God said that she too was worshiped besides God. meaning prayed and bowed down to, or any kind of worship some Christians do, that they should only do with God.
So it was god who thought she was part of the trinity? Wow how wrong can he get?
Fruitytree
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4/13/2014 12:13:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 12:00:24 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:57:37 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:33:27 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/12/2014 3:10:31 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
FLMinistries 2 questions for you

1) If Jesus is God, how he didnt know about the hour?
Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[a] but the Father only

God is all-knowing,Jesus fails this main qualification and he himself makes a distinction between everything and the Father, there is no room for Jesus or the holy ghost as christains claim he is God too.

2)if Jesus is God, how can he didnt say even one time "im God" or "Worship me"?

In the old testmant we can see God claiming to be "God" many many times repeating himself, yet not once in the new testment with Jesus. Had Jesus been God, he would have told people to worship him. Truly, he did the exact opposite.

Why did muhammad think that mary was a part of the trinity? You guys hate that don't you. Mr Sulu initiate squirm effect warp 8.

No he did not think this nor did he say it.

But in Quran God said that she too was worshiped besides God. meaning prayed and bowed down to, or any kind of worship some Christians do, that they should only do with God.
So it was god who thought she was part of the trinity? Wow how wrong can he get?

No the verse does not speak about trinity at all !

Here you got that verse :

And call to mind what time Allah will say: O Isa, son of Maryam! was it thou who said to the people: take me and my mother as two god beside Allah! Isa will say: hallowed be Thou! it was not for me to say that to which had no right; had I said it, Thou would have surely known it; Thou knowest that which is in my mind and know not that which is in Thy mind. Verily Thou! Thou art the Great Knower of the things hidden. (116) I spake not unto them aught save that for which Thou badest me: worship Allah, mine Lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them so long as abode amongst them: then when Thou tookest up Thou hast been the Watcher. And over everything Thou art a Witness. (117) Chapter 5

And here the verse regarding the trinity:

O ye people of the Book; exceed not the bounds in Your religion, and say not of Allah save that which is the truth. The Messiah Isa, son of Maryam, is but an apostle of Allah and His word --He cast it upon Maryam-- and a spirit from Him. Believe wherefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not: three. Desist, that it may be well for you. Allah is but the One God: hallowed be He that there should be unto Him a son! His is whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth, and sufficeth Allah as a Trustee. (171) The Messiah disdaineth not that he should be a bondman of Allah, nor do the angels brought near. And whosoever disdaineth serving Him and stiff-necked, anon He shall gather them all unto Him. (172) Chapter 4

You see in the second verse He makes mention of Jesus and the angels , as the holy spirit as actually an angel. and that's where it speaks about trinity

But Christians (not all of course) aren't guilty only of trinity, they also worship Jesus mother and some other saints and sometimes even their priests.
bulproof
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4/13/2014 12:21:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 12:13:23 AM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 4/13/2014 12:00:24 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:57:37 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:33:27 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/12/2014 3:10:31 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
FLMinistries 2 questions for you

1) If Jesus is God, how he didnt know about the hour?
Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[a] but the Father only

God is all-knowing,Jesus fails this main qualification and he himself makes a distinction between everything and the Father, there is no room for Jesus or the holy ghost as christains claim he is God too.

2)if Jesus is God, how can he didnt say even one time "im God" or "Worship me"?

In the old testmant we can see God claiming to be "God" many many times repeating himself, yet not once in the new testment with Jesus. Had Jesus been God, he would have told people to worship him. Truly, he did the exact opposite.

Why did muhammad think that mary was a part of the trinity? You guys hate that don't you. Mr Sulu initiate squirm effect warp 8.

No he did not think this nor did he say it.

But in Quran God said that she too was worshiped besides God. meaning prayed and bowed down to, or any kind of worship some Christians do, that they should only do with God.
So it was god who thought she was part of the trinity? Wow how wrong can he get?

No the verse does not speak about trinity at all !

Here you got that verse :

And call to mind what time Allah will say: O Isa, son of Maryam! was it thou who said to the people: take me and my mother as two god beside Allah! Isa will say: hallowed be Thou! it was not for me to say that to which had no right; had I said it, Thou would have surely known it; Thou knowest that which is in my mind and know not that which is in Thy mind. Verily Thou! Thou art the Great Knower of the things hidden. (116) I spake not unto them aught save that for which Thou badest me: worship Allah, mine Lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them so long as abode amongst them: then when Thou tookest up Thou hast been the Watcher. And over everything Thou art a Witness. (117) Chapter 5

And here the verse regarding the trinity:

O ye people of the Book; exceed not the bounds in Your religion, and say not of Allah save that which is the truth. The Messiah Isa, son of Maryam, is but an apostle of Allah and His word --He cast it upon Maryam-- and a spirit from Him. Believe wherefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not: three. Desist, that it may be well for you. Allah is but the One God: hallowed be He that there should be unto Him a son! His is whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth, and sufficeth Allah as a Trustee. (171) The Messiah disdaineth not that he should be a bondman of Allah, nor do the angels brought near. And whosoever disdaineth serving Him and stiff-necked, anon He shall gather them all unto Him. (172) Chapter 4

You see in the second verse He makes mention of Jesus and the angels , as the holy spirit as actually an angel. and that's where it speaks about trinity

But Christians (not all of course) aren't guilty only of trinity, they also worship Jesus mother and some other saints and sometimes even their priests.

As long as muslims tell you what christians do you can't possibly be wrong. Oh dear.

Is this the first part of the shahadah?
I bear witness that that there is no Allah worthy of worship except Allah
POPOO5560
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4/13/2014 3:14:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 2:11:01 PM, FLMinistries wrote:

i gave you a generall understanding on the name "Alllah"/ The God and allh/ god, to show how sematic languages are similar in their root. anyway you mocking the God moon, what you do is open your bible in Arabic and read it. instead of God they put ALLAH, you genius.
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POPOO5560
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4/13/2014 3:16:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 4:37:15 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/12/2014 4:11:41 PM, jh1234l wrote:
Premise 1: I assume the Bible is true.
Premise 2: The Qur'an contradicts with the bible.
Conclusion: The Qur'an is false.

You are assuming that Jesus in the Bible is the "true" depiction of him without any proof.

I'm amazed the conversation took so long for someone to say this.

Quoting the bible means proving to christains not all poeple.
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POPOO5560
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4/13/2014 3:17:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 11:40:19 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:33:27 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/12/2014 3:10:31 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
FLMinistries 2 questions for you

1) If Jesus is God, how he didnt know about the hour?
Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[a] but the Father only

God is all-knowing,Jesus fails this main qualification and he himself makes a distinction between everything and the Father, there is no room for Jesus or the holy ghost as christains claim he is God too.

2)if Jesus is God, how can he didnt say even one time "im God" or "Worship me"?

In the old testmant we can see God claiming to be "God" many many times repeating himself, yet not once in the new testment with Jesus. Had Jesus been God, he would have told people to worship him. Truly, he did the exact opposite.

Why did muhammad think that mary was a part of the trinity? You guys hate that don't you. Mr Sulu initiate squirm effect warp 8.

The Christians here are above your little boy type of attacks. It only gives them strength. And it isn't giving you the satisfaction you are craving.

Yeah they above and they cant answer the questions.
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4/13/2014 3:33:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 11:33:27 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/12/2014 3:10:31 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
FLMinistries 2 questions for you

1) If Jesus is God, how he didnt know about the hour?
Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[a] but the Father only

God is all-knowing,Jesus fails this main qualification and he himself makes a distinction between everything and the Father, there is no room for Jesus or the holy ghost as christains claim he is God too.

2)if Jesus is God, how can he didnt say even one time "im God" or "Worship me"?

In the old testmant we can see God claiming to be "God" many many times repeating himself, yet not once in the new testment with Jesus. Had Jesus been God, he would have told people to worship him. Truly, he did the exact opposite.

Why did muhammad think that mary was a part of the trinity? You guys hate that don't you. Mr Sulu initiate squirm effect warp 8.

Its not says part of trinity, mixing things without any reference is absurd. this accusation is among the ghosts that chasing islam.
In the Quran it says:
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. [Qur'an 5:116]

when the Quran mentions Jesus and Mary being worshiped as gods it never mentions the Trinity.

Now the quran on trinity:
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (5:73)

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171)

Even today Catholics praying to Mary, in islam if someone prays to anyone beside Allah, its regarded as a "Shirk" or making partners with God, and it makes worshiping somebody beside GOD. because in islam you only able to ask and pray to God not involving nonsense like asking priests to forgive you. UNDERSTAND BUDDY?
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FLMinistries
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4/13/2014 3:37:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If you recongnize Jesus as the Messiah then why do not you follow His commands?

He Establishes a new covenant

"Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David. Behold, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander for the peoples. (Isaiah 55:3-4)

Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,...But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (Jeremiah 31:31)
"for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood. (Luke 22:20)


But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises... For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them upon their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people. (Hebrews 8:6-10)

Jesus obviously taught His blood cleanses your sins yet when have you accepted His blood for the atonement for your sins? Why also do not you come to Him to come to God to intercede for the people? Not mohammad.

Christ taught you could not have any safety with God without coming to Him.

Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. (Isaiah 53:12)

And He saw that there was no man, And was astonished that there was no one to intercede; Then His own arm brought salvation to Him; And His righteousness upheld Him. (Isaiah 59:16)
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (Romans 8:34)

Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)
FLMinistries
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4/13/2014 3:48:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 5:18:48 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Where did he claim that? in the Gospel or in Paul influenced books? (scripture please)

Again you speak of Paul as if his books are not directly inspired by Christ. Again denying the apostles who wrote the gospels and the other apostles who wrote the N.T. whom agreed with Paul both in letter and history.

Finally, if Jesus is God, we might expect Him to say so. Have you ever wondered why He didn't simply state, "I am God?" and put an end to any possibility of confusion?
Actually, He did. What He says in John 8:58 was to His Jewish audience a far more explicit statement than if He had merely said "I am God." It is important to see this passage in its context. In verse 53, we see that the Pharisees were becoming uncomfortable with Jesus' claims, beginning to suspect that He was putting Himself on a level of authority no mere man would have any right to. They said:

53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I shall be a liar like you, but I do know Him, and keep His word.
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.

Notice that these men understood precisely what Jesus was saying. And because He obviously also understood what they were asking, His reply is all that much more significant. He was telling them He was God, using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning bush, "I AM." He could have made no stronger claim of deity. If that had not been His meaning, if he were claiming only to be the firstborn angel, He would have said, "before Abraham was born, I was."

The gospel of John includes a whole series of statements Jesus made about Himself using this name "I AM""I am the way, the truth, and the life (Jn. 14:6); I am the good shepherd; I am the door; I am the bread of life; I am the light of the world. Each one of these statements, studied in context, reveals that He was making claim after claim of absolute deity.

The biblical evidence for the deity of Christ is conclusive. It is overwhelming, irrefutable evidence. In fact, what we have covered here is only a representative sample. I haven't even mentioned John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." That, and many other similar passages could be adduced to prove even more conclusively that according to Scripture, He is God.

So much evidence cannot be swept aside or ignored. You either believe it, or you condemn yourself to an unthinkable eternity. In fact, Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins" (Jn. 8:24). There Jesus holds forth His "I am""without a predicate"as the object of our faith. He is very obviously setting Himself in the place of God, and He can do that only because He is God. Those who know that Scripture is the Word of God can only believe, and join in the worship of Him at whose name every knee shall bow.


3) He allowed apostles to call Him "The Lord thy God" which is reserved only for God

Ok please bring scripture for this one as well.

John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
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4/13/2014 4:00:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 9:56:39 PM, FLMinistries wrote:
Jesus Christ lived, said, and maintained that:
2) He forgave sins which only God can do

I hope you don"t get offended by this, but I think you have few mistakes.

Jesus did just wahat God had commanded him to do. He was speaking on behalf of God. John 12:49-50, John 7:16-17

Also disciples had right to forgive sins. John 20:23

4) He did miracles which only God could do. (This shows He was of God and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he never did miracles.)

Most assuredly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these will he do; because I am going to my Father. Whatever you will ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you will ask anything in my name, I will do it.
John 14:10-14

5) He allowed people to worship Him which only worship is reserved for God.

I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
John 14:10-14

God dwells in Jesus. They didn"t worship Jesus, but the God who dwells in Jesus.

6) He called Himself by the name of God given to Moses "I AM"

Also Paul uses "I am" from himself (2 Cor. 12:10), so I think we can"t say that all "I am" parts mean that the person is claiming to be God.

7) He told people to believe on Him(not just the Father) and they would have eternal life and again only a statement that God could make.

Again we have to remember that Jesus said:
I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
John 14:10-14
FLMinistries
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4/13/2014 4:30:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 4:00:47 AM, 12_13 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 9:56:39 PM, FLMinistries wrote:
Jesus Christ lived, said, and maintained that:
2) He forgave sins which only God can do

I hope you don"t get offended by this, but I think you have few mistakes.

Jesus did just wahat God had commanded him to do. He was speaking on behalf of God. John 12:49-50, John 7:16-17

Also disciples had right to forgive sins. John 20:23

4) He did miracles which only God could do. (This shows He was of God and shows the weakness of Mohammad prophet-hood because he never did miracles.)

Most assuredly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these will he do; because I am going to my Father. Whatever you will ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you will ask anything in my name, I will do it.
John 14:10-14

5) He allowed people to worship Him which only worship is reserved for God.

I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
John 14:10-14

God dwells in Jesus. They didn"t worship Jesus, but the God who dwells in Jesus.

6) He called Himself by the name of God given to Moses "I AM"

Also Paul uses "I am" from himself (2 Cor. 12:10), so I think we can"t say that all "I am" parts mean that the person is claiming to be God.

7) He told people to believe on Him(not just the Father) and they would have eternal life and again only a statement that God could make.

Again we have to remember that Jesus said:
I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works.
John 14:10-14

Actually none of what you claimed address anything I have claimed. I agree with everything you stated but you miss the boldness of the claims. No person or prophet ever made these claims. The apostles did miracles because of Christ, thru Christ, as stated "I will do" and "in my name". Also you said Paul said "I am" in 2 Cor. and indeed he did but lets look at the context in each statement:

2 Corinthians 12:10
"Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

John 8:58
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

The "I am" here is not the same wording in as when Christ said it. Here for Paul it is "otan gar asqenw, tote dunatoV eimi" and Jesus "egw eimi." What Jesus said "egw" was a primary pronoun of the first person I (only expressed when emphatic) and it means "I, me, my" and the "eimi" means "to be, to exist, to happen, to be present" compared with Paul when He said "otan gar asqenw, tote dunatoV eimi" in his there is no definitive article or no "I, me, my" or "to exist, to be, to happen, to be present" and hence are not the same in language or words. Though compared to Exodus 3:14 which says:

Exodus 3:14
"And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you."

"I am" here means "to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out". So, Jesus was saying the exact same thing as Exodus. Jesus was telling them exactly that Before Abraham was "I exist". Paul and Jesus was not saying close to the same thing.
Sswdwm
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4/13/2014 6:45:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I thought it was only in the Synoptic Gospel of John that mentioned Jesus' divinity. Matthew Mark and Luke which precede John do not. And the later writings that did mentioned the divinity of Jesus has John as a source.

Right?
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Fruitytree
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4/13/2014 10:15:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 12:21:08 AM, bulproof wrote:

As long as muslims tell you what christians do you can't possibly be wrong. Oh dear.

You're so twisted! some of the of the very first Muslims were converted from Christianity and Judaism, some were even Priests and Rabbis, so we don't get out knowledge from ignorance, and if you want to be sure just watch Christian videos made by Christians inside the Church.

Is this the first part of the shahadah?
I bear witness that that there is no Allah worthy of worship except Allah

No. It's : there is no "Ilah = god with lower case" worthy of worship except "Allah = God with upper case".

Allah is used exclusively for the creator, even before Islam in the Arabic peninsula, Allah was the name of the God of Abraham.
Stephen_Hawkins
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4/13/2014 12:03:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 3:16:03 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 4:37:15 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 4/12/2014 4:11:41 PM, jh1234l wrote:
Premise 1: I assume the Bible is true.
Premise 2: The Qur'an contradicts with the bible.
Conclusion: The Qur'an is false.

You are assuming that Jesus in the Bible is the "true" depiction of him without any proof.

I'm amazed the conversation took so long for someone to say this.

Quoting the bible means proving to christains not all poeple.

Yet he is using this argument to convince muslims. I find it incredibly uncharitable to believe that he is arguing to Christians that the Islamic faith is wrong.
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