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I hope You so called Atheists Are Right!

ironsmile360
Posts: 42
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4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon... Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale). So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?
take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be... Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.
For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.
please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.
But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.
Ironsmile360
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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4/14/2014 7:37:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Evolution.

Although you could argue that evolution itself is an intelligent design and I would agree.
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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4/14/2014 7:45:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon...

Anecdotal evidence. Were you on LSD? I encountered a leprechaun once when I was too stoned.

Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale).

Anecdotal evidence. Contradictory religions make such claims. But they can never heal things like a detached leg, just things in the body which naturally heal by themselves or are resolved by psychology and placebo.

So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?

Natural selection can produce complex structures.

take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be...

False comparison fallacy. Cars are not biological creatures with the capability to evolve.

Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.

How do you mean human minds can regenerate? Do you mean overcome memory loss when brains are damaged?

For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.

Argument from personal incredulity.

please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.

I think I have provided you with a couple of logical fallacies you are making.

But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

Pascal wager fallacy. When you die, an array of possibilities where you are punished are possible. For instance, you can wake up to a God who punishes faith and encourages skeptical and logical thinking, or a God only concerned with bodily health who punishes people for being fat. The pascal wager fallacy is to assume that there will either be your God or Nothing when you wake up, which is a confident but ignorant dichotomy.
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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4/14/2014 7:47:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon... Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale). So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?
take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be... Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.
For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.
please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.
But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

What does Quetzalcoatl have to say about an afterlife and why don't you believe him?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Dwint
Posts: 47
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4/14/2014 7:47:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon... Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale). So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?
take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be... Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.
For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.
please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.
But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

http://www.debate.org...
Hitchens is the way!
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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4/14/2014 7:47:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:37:18 AM, Intrepid wrote:

Although you could argue that evolution itself is an intelligent design and I would agree.

Care to elaborate? Evolution, by definition, doesn't seem to be "intelligent" in me, since it is basely a bruteforcing algorithm that naturally occurs when the factor of death is involved.
Dwint
Posts: 47
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4/14/2014 7:49:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:47:35 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:37:18 AM, Intrepid wrote:

Although you could argue that evolution itself is an intelligent design and I would agree.

Care to elaborate? Evolution, by definition, doesn't seem to be "intelligent" in me, since it is basely a bruteforcing algorithm that naturally occurs when the factor of death is involved.

I've heard it a few times, it's BS. They claim that evolution is a process created by god. They dodge the need to disprove a perfectly reasonable theory by hiding behind God and his unlimited power.
Hitchens is the way!
RoderickSpode
Posts: 2,370
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4/14/2014 9:44:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:49:53 AM, Dwint wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:47:35 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:37:18 AM, Intrepid wrote:

Although you could argue that evolution itself is an intelligent design and I would agree.

Care to elaborate? Evolution, by definition, doesn't seem to be "intelligent" in me, since it is basely a bruteforcing algorithm that naturally occurs when the factor of death is involved.

I've heard it a few times, it's BS. They claim that evolution is a process created by god. They dodge the need to disprove a perfectly reasonable theory by hiding behind God and his unlimited power.
That might depend on what is meant by intelligent design, or how broad one is using. It's usually relegated to a divine spiritual being, but panspermia is one of the theories used to solve the problem of life originating on earth without outside origin. Panspermia might include alien intelligent life spermeating earth. That would still be a form of intelligent design.

For those who wish to (unlike Richard Dawkins) completely avoid any reference to intelligent design.....and the fantasy aspect of aliens in general, they leave that part out by suggesting a more natural form of panspermia.
Fanath
Posts: 830
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4/14/2014 10:06:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
You've lost every Sunday morning.

Well, first off you have to ask the question of where god came to be. If you're asserting that something cannot come from nothing-(And using intelligent design for support)- Then you should ask yourself what designed god. If we're saying something as petty as the human eye needs an intelligent designer, then a perfect god absolutely demands one. God is more complex. It's more likely that an imperfect earth came into being from nothing than it is for a perfect god to.

Secondly, we DO have plausible explanations for how the universe came to be. Take simultaneous causation for example: Imagine states A B and C come into the universe at the same time. A causes B, B causes C, and C causes A. The cause and effect are simultaneous. Why should we assume god over simultaneous causation?

If simultaneous causation is impossible, then there really is no way god could have come to be. Most theists have to concede to simultaneous causation at this point.

The multiverse could explain the earth being finely tuned. This is basically the idea that many different universes come to be, so it's only likely that one finely tuned one would appear.

Why accept god over a multiverse?
Dude... Stop...
Dwint
Posts: 47
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4/14/2014 10:15:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:06:13 AM, Fanath wrote:
You've lost every Sunday morning.


Well, first off you have to ask the question of where god came to be. If you're asserting that something cannot come from nothing-(And using intelligent design for support)- Then you should ask yourself what designed god. If we're saying something as petty as the human eye needs an intelligent designer, then a perfect god absolutely demands one. God is more complex. It's more likely that an imperfect earth came into being from nothing than it is for a perfect god to.


Secondly, we DO have plausible explanations for how the universe came to be. Take simultaneous causation for example: Imagine states A B and C come into the universe at the same time. A causes B, B causes C, and C causes A. The cause and effect are simultaneous. Why should we assume god over simultaneous causation?

If simultaneous causation is impossible, then there really is no way god could have come to be. Most theists have to concede to simultaneous causation at this point.

The multiverse could explain the earth being finely tuned. This is basically the idea that many different universes come to be, so it's only likely that one finely tuned one would appear.

Why accept god over a multiverse?

I think god is more reasonable than the multiverse theory. The fact is there is no reasonable explanation for the beginning of the universe. The Big Bang Theory is just as unreasonable as Creationism. Theists think Creationism in more reasonable, atheists believe TBBT is more reasonable, but I don't think any of them offer a plausible explanation for the beginning of the universe.
Hitchens is the way!
Fanath
Posts: 830
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4/14/2014 10:17:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:15:11 AM, Dwint wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:06:13 AM, Fanath wrote:
You've lost every Sunday morning.


Well, first off you have to ask the question of where god came to be. If you're asserting that something cannot come from nothing-(And using intelligent design for support)- Then you should ask yourself what designed god. If we're saying something as petty as the human eye needs an intelligent designer, then a perfect god absolutely demands one. God is more complex. It's more likely that an imperfect earth came into being from nothing than it is for a perfect god to.


Secondly, we DO have plausible explanations for how the universe came to be. Take simultaneous causation for example: Imagine states A B and C come into the universe at the same time. A causes B, B causes C, and C causes A. The cause and effect are simultaneous. Why should we assume god over simultaneous causation?

If simultaneous causation is impossible, then there really is no way god could have come to be. Most theists have to concede to simultaneous causation at this point.

The multiverse could explain the earth being finely tuned. This is basically the idea that many different universes come to be, so it's only likely that one finely tuned one would appear.

Why accept god over a multiverse?

I think god is more reasonable than the multiverse theory. The fact is there is no reasonable explanation for the beginning of the universe. The Big Bang Theory is just as unreasonable as Creationism. Theists think Creationism in more reasonable, atheists believe TBBT is more reasonable, but I don't think any of them offer a plausible explanation for the beginning of the universe.

I never said Big Bang Theory. I asked why we should accept god over simultaneous causation and the multiverse. Do you have an answer? ...
Dude... Stop...
Dwint
Posts: 47
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4/14/2014 10:24:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:17:51 AM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:15:11 AM, Dwint wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:06:13 AM, Fanath wrote:
You've lost every Sunday morning.


Well, first off you have to ask the question of where god came to be. If you're asserting that something cannot come from nothing-(And using intelligent design for support)- Then you should ask yourself what designed god. If we're saying something as petty as the human eye needs an intelligent designer, then a perfect god absolutely demands one. God is more complex. It's more likely that an imperfect earth came into being from nothing than it is for a perfect god to.


Secondly, we DO have plausible explanations for how the universe came to be. Take simultaneous causation for example: Imagine states A B and C come into the universe at the same time. A causes B, B causes C, and C causes A. The cause and effect are simultaneous. Why should we assume god over simultaneous causation?

If simultaneous causation is impossible, then there really is no way god could have come to be. Most theists have to concede to simultaneous causation at this point.

The multiverse could explain the earth being finely tuned. This is basically the idea that many different universes come to be, so it's only likely that one finely tuned one would appear.

Why accept god over a multiverse?

I think god is more reasonable than the multiverse theory. The fact is there is no reasonable explanation for the beginning of the universe. The Big Bang Theory is just as unreasonable as Creationism. Theists think Creationism in more reasonable, atheists believe TBBT is more reasonable, but I don't think any of them offer a plausible explanation for the beginning of the universe.

I never said Big Bang Theory. I asked why we should accept god over simultaneous causation and the multiverse. Do you have an answer? ...

Basically the multiverse theory says everything that can exist does exist in a certain universe. First of all, an infinite number of universes is very unreasonable, when you think about it. Also, there must be a universe where a supreme, all-powerful, all-knowing being exists. There must be a universe where God exists, a universe where Zeus exists, a universe where Brahma exists. I think the existence of one god is unreasonable and the multiverse allows hundreds of gods to exist.
Hitchens is the way!
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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4/14/2014 10:30:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:24:52 AM, Dwint wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:17:51 AM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:15:11 AM, Dwint wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:06:13 AM, Fanath wrote:
You've lost every Sunday morning.


Well, first off you have to ask the question of where god came to be. If you're asserting that something cannot come from nothing-(And using intelligent design for support)- Then you should ask yourself what designed god. If we're saying something as petty as the human eye needs an intelligent designer, then a perfect god absolutely demands one. God is more complex. It's more likely that an imperfect earth came into being from nothing than it is for a perfect god to.


Secondly, we DO have plausible explanations for how the universe came to be. Take simultaneous causation for example: Imagine states A B and C come into the universe at the same time. A causes B, B causes C, and C causes A. The cause and effect are simultaneous. Why should we assume god over simultaneous causation?

If simultaneous causation is impossible, then there really is no way god could have come to be. Most theists have to concede to simultaneous causation at this point.

The multiverse could explain the earth being finely tuned. This is basically the idea that many different universes come to be, so it's only likely that one finely tuned one would appear.

Why accept god over a multiverse?

I think god is more reasonable than the multiverse theory. The fact is there is no reasonable explanation for the beginning of the universe. The Big Bang Theory is just as unreasonable as Creationism. Theists think Creationism in more reasonable, atheists believe TBBT is more reasonable, but I don't think any of them offer a plausible explanation for the beginning of the universe.

I never said Big Bang Theory. I asked why we should accept god over simultaneous causation and the multiverse. Do you have an answer? ...

Basically the multiverse theory says everything that can exist does exist in a certain universe. First of all, an infinite number of universes is very unreasonable, when you think about it. Also, there must be a universe where a supreme, all-powerful, all-knowing being exists. There must be a universe where God exists, a universe where Zeus exists, a universe where Brahma exists. I think the existence of one god is unreasonable and the multiverse allows hundreds of gods to exist.

The multiverse would only allow those Gods to exist if they were a product of the universe. Every possible outcome within a universe happened in one of the universes within the multiverse, not literally everything that can be imagined.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Fanath
Posts: 830
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4/14/2014 11:21:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:24:52 AM, Dwint wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:17:51 AM, Fanath wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:15:11 AM, Dwint wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:06:13 AM, Fanath wrote:
You've lost every Sunday morning.


Well, first off you have to ask the question of where god came to be. If you're asserting that something cannot come from nothing-(And using intelligent design for support)- Then you should ask yourself what designed god. If we're saying something as petty as the human eye needs an intelligent designer, then a perfect god absolutely demands one. God is more complex. It's more likely that an imperfect earth came into being from nothing than it is for a perfect god to.


Secondly, we DO have plausible explanations for how the universe came to be. Take simultaneous causation for example: Imagine states A B and C come into the universe at the same time. A causes B, B causes C, and C causes A. The cause and effect are simultaneous. Why should we assume god over simultaneous causation?

If simultaneous causation is impossible, then there really is no way god could have come to be. Most theists have to concede to simultaneous causation at this point.

The multiverse could explain the earth being finely tuned. This is basically the idea that many different universes come to be, so it's only likely that one finely tuned one would appear.

Why accept god over a multiverse?

I think god is more reasonable than the multiverse theory. The fact is there is no reasonable explanation for the beginning of the universe. The Big Bang Theory is just as unreasonable as Creationism. Theists think Creationism in more reasonable, atheists believe TBBT is more reasonable, but I don't think any of them offer a plausible explanation for the beginning of the universe.

I never said Big Bang Theory. I asked why we should accept god over simultaneous causation and the multiverse. Do you have an answer? ...

Basically the multiverse theory says everything that can exist does exist in a certain universe. First of all, an infinite number of universes is very unreasonable, when you think about it. Also, there must be a universe where a supreme, all-powerful, all-knowing being exists. There must be a universe where God exists, a universe where Zeus exists, a universe where Brahma exists. I think the existence of one god is unreasonable and the multiverse allows hundreds of gods to exist.

Why would gods be forced to exist in a multiverse? Give us the body of your argument, not just the conclusion where you say something is unreasonable or that gods would absolutely have to exist.
Dude... Stop...
ironsmile360
Posts: 42
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4/14/2014 12:36:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:45:49 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon...

Anecdotal evidence. Were you on LSD? I encountered a leprechaun once when I was too stoned.

Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale).

Anecdotal evidence. Contradictory religions make such claims. But they can never heal things like a detached leg, just things in the body which naturally heal by themselves or are resolved by psychology and placebo.

So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?

Natural selection can produce complex structures.

take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be...

False comparison fallacy. Cars are not biological creatures with the capability to evolve.

Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.

How do you mean human minds can regenerate? Do you mean overcome memory loss when brains are damaged?

For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.

Argument from personal incredulity.

please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.

I think I have provided you with a couple of logical fallacies you are making.

But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

Pascal wager fallacy. When you die, an array of possibilities where you are punished are possible. For instance, you can wake up to a God who punishes faith and encourages skeptical and logical thinking, or a God only concerned with bodily health who punishes people for being fat. The pascal wager fallacy is to assume that there will either be your God or Nothing when you wake up, which is a confident but ignorant dichotomy.

misstatement about the human mind. I meant the human body (on a molecular level... Well, maybe not, pul a hair from your body & watch it grow back?).

No, I'm. Not on LSD, and my very real experiences have been shared by other people throughout history. Also, you need to be careful or the angel I met will smite you.
Ironsmile360
ironsmile360
Posts: 42
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4/14/2014 12:40:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:47:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon... Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale). So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?
take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be... Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.
For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.
please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.
But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

What does Quetzalcoatl have to say about an afterlife and why don't you believe him?

I have no idea what Quetzalcoatl said, so I can't speak on anything about that. I choose to believe in the Hebrew God, Yahweh.
Ironsmile360
bulproof
Posts: 25,168
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4/14/2014 12:58:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 12:40:42 PM, ironsmile360 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:47:18 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon... Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale). So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?
take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be... Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.
For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.
please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.
But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

What does Quetzalcoatl have to say about an afterlife and why don't you believe him?

I have no idea what Quetzalcoatl said, so I can't speak on anything about that. I choose to believe in the Hebrew God, Yahweh.

So you deny the existence of Quetzalcoatl? How can you deny the one true god? Don't you want to be saved from his wrath?
Religion is just mind control. George Carlin
Sswdwm
Posts: 1,398
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4/14/2014 1:21:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon... Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale). So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?
take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be... Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.
For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.
please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.
But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

To quote thett3:
"I am always right, I though I was wrong once but I was mistaken"

Checkmate.
Resolved: the Zombie Apocalypse Will Happen
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The most basic living cell was Intelligently Designed:
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God most likely exists:
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tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/14/2014 1:43:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon... Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale). So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?

Evolution.

take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be... Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.

The designer, the builder, was nature.

It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that the planets rotating around the sun, with all of its complex interactions and predestined routes, were being pushed around by invisible space pixies..... Without Nature, without gravity....

Nature, the natural laws, explain this. You can call the rotation of the planets around the sun, as "Designed", "Complex", etc, but the thing is, we have a good, natural explanation that accounts for why planets rotate around the sun without being flung off into a random path, or zigzag in a random pattern around the sun.

For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.
please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.

Youve just committed a logical fallacy, demonstrating that your position is illogical and irrational.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

Another logical fallacy. You assume that the only two options are "Either Im right, and the religion I chose is right, or I am wrong, and nothing happens."

Congrats. What if you are wrong, and I am wrong, and the Muslim is right? What will you say to the Creator? What if Judaism is right? Hinduism? What if the Westboro Baptist Church was right?
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/14/2014 1:49:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The horrible truth for Christians is that the Westboro Baptist church is adhering closer to the gospel than any other church.

They aren't backsliders and secretly in the Christian mind they wish that they too could be so loyal to the traditional teaching. But alas, Satan's word has turned the church into something that must adapt to the 21st. century. Literal belief in the bible is now unacceptable because of His interference with the word of god.
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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4/14/2014 4:10:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:47:35 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:37:18 AM, Intrepid wrote:

Although you could argue that evolution itself is an intelligent design and I would agree.

Care to elaborate? Evolution, by definition, doesn't seem to be "intelligent" in me, since it is basely a bruteforcing algorithm that naturally occurs when the factor of death is involved.

Its a system, which is self sufficient and very well could have been created by God.
ironsmile360
Posts: 42
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4/14/2014 5:49:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 1:43:44 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon... Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale). So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?

Evolution.

take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be... Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.

The designer, the builder, was nature.

It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that the planets rotating around the sun, with all of its complex interactions and predestined routes, were being pushed around by invisible space pixies..... Without Nature, without gravity....

Nature, the natural laws, explain this. You can call the rotation of the planets around the sun, as "Designed", "Complex", etc, but the thing is, we have a good, natural explanation that accounts for why planets rotate around the sun without being flung off into a random path, or zigzag in a random pattern around the sun.

For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.
please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.

Youve just committed a logical fallacy, demonstrating that your position is illogical and irrational.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

Another logical fallacy. You assume that the only two options are "Either Im right, and the religion I chose is right, or I am wrong, and nothing happens."

Congrats. What if you are wrong, and I am wrong, and the Muslim is right? What will you say to the Creator? What if Judaism is right? Hinduism? What if the Westboro Baptist Church was right?

Decent argument.. Except at the end:
Muslim? Still judged by a higher power (Allah), and your infidel tongue would be cut out of your mouth, your testicles would be removed in much the same way & you would serve a good & faithful cleric (+his harem of virgin women) in the afterlife.
Hindu? Prepare, again prepare those two body parts for Shiva, and enjoy the next life you might be granted as a cockroach.
Judaism: Jehovah grants an eternal reward to the righteous, so your testicles might be safe, but your tongue might be tossed into hell.
Westboro Baptist? All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ & you're in for life, no matter what you do after that.
I like the Baptist way of thinking, so pass me a beer and shut up sinner.
Ironsmile360
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/14/2014 6:31:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 5:49:03 PM, ironsmile360 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:43:44 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon... Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale). So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?

Evolution.

take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be... Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.

The designer, the builder, was nature.

It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that the planets rotating around the sun, with all of its complex interactions and predestined routes, were being pushed around by invisible space pixies..... Without Nature, without gravity....

Nature, the natural laws, explain this. You can call the rotation of the planets around the sun, as "Designed", "Complex", etc, but the thing is, we have a good, natural explanation that accounts for why planets rotate around the sun without being flung off into a random path, or zigzag in a random pattern around the sun.

For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.
please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.

Youve just committed a logical fallacy, demonstrating that your position is illogical and irrational.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

Another logical fallacy. You assume that the only two options are "Either Im right, and the religion I chose is right, or I am wrong, and nothing happens."

Congrats. What if you are wrong, and I am wrong, and the Muslim is right? What will you say to the Creator? What if Judaism is right? Hinduism? What if the Westboro Baptist Church was right?

Decent argument.. Except at the end:
Muslim? Still judged by a higher power (Allah), and your infidel tongue would be cut out of your mouth, your testicles would be removed in much the same way & you would serve a good & faithful cleric (+his harem of virgin women) in the afterlife.

Sure. But dont you think the same thing might happen to you, if you are a christian? You heathen infidel unbeliever follower of a false religion lead by satan.

Hindu? Prepare, again prepare those two body parts for Shiva, and enjoy the next life you might be granted as a cockroach.

Again, sure.

Judaism: Jehovah grants an eternal reward to the righteous, so your testicles might be safe, but your tongue might be tossed into hell.

To nonbelievers who do not follow the commandments of the Torah? Last time I checked, no.

Westboro Baptist? All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ & you're in for life, no matter what you do after that.

Nope. As evidenced by their claims that all f@g enablers, including those that still accept Jesus Christ but allow or enable f@ggots, will still burn in hell.

I like the Baptist way of thinking, so pass me a beer and shut up sinner.

Okay.

But you see the point, dont you? No one could be a muslim and a hindu and a Jew and a Westboro Baptist member, at the same time. So, one way or another, if you are wrong, you could still end up in hell, tortured for eternity.

You have everything to lose. If you are wrong and the Muslims are right, you lose EVERYTHING.
ironsmile360
Posts: 42
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4/14/2014 7:21:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 6:31:26 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/14/2014 5:49:03 PM, ironsmile360 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:43:44 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon... Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale). So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?

Evolution.

take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be... Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.

The designer, the builder, was nature.

It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that the planets rotating around the sun, with all of its complex interactions and predestined routes, were being pushed around by invisible space pixies..... Without Nature, without gravity....

Nature, the natural laws, explain this. You can call the rotation of the planets around the sun, as "Designed", "Complex", etc, but the thing is, we have a good, natural explanation that accounts for why planets rotate around the sun without being flung off into a random path, or zigzag in a random pattern around the sun.

For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.
please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.

Youve just committed a logical fallacy, demonstrating that your position is illogical and irrational.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

Another logical fallacy. You assume that the only two options are "Either Im right, and the religion I chose is right, or I am wrong, and nothing happens."

Congrats. What if you are wrong, and I am wrong, and the Muslim is right? What will you say to the Creator? What if Judaism is right? Hinduism? What if the Westboro Baptist Church was right?

Decent argument.. Except at the end:
Muslim? Still judged by a higher power (Allah), and your infidel tongue would be cut out of your mouth, your testicles would be removed in much the same way & you would serve a good & faithful cleric (+his harem of virgin women) in the afterlife.

Sure. But dont you think the same thing might happen to you, if you are a christian? You heathen infidel unbeliever follower of a false religion lead by satan.

Hindu? Prepare, again prepare those two body parts for Shiva, and enjoy the next life you might be granted as a cockroach.

Again, sure.

Judaism: Jehovah grants an eternal reward to the righteous, so your testicles might be safe, but your tongue might be tossed into hell.

To nonbelievers who do not follow the commandments of the Torah? Last time I checked, no.

Westboro Baptist? All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ & you're in for life, no matter what you do after that.

Nope. As evidenced by their claims that all f@g enablers, including those that still accept Jesus Christ but allow or enable f@ggots, will still burn in hell.

I like the Baptist way of thinking, so pass me a beer and shut up sinner.

Okay.

But you see the point, dont you? No one could be a muslim and a hindu and a Jew and a Westboro Baptist member, at the same time. So, one way or another, if you are wrong, you could still end up in hell, tortured for eternity.

You have everything to lose. If you are wrong and the Muslims are right, you lose EVERYTHING.

This question& comment is ridiculous. I never once wrote in my statement that a person could be a member of those religions simultaneously, so stop watching The Life of Pi, and get back to reality. 2nd, I have a better chance of gaining access into heaven by Allah than you do, so wake up - you are farther away than you think.
Ironsmile360
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/14/2014 7:33:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 7:21:07 PM, ironsmile360 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 6:31:26 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/14/2014 5:49:03 PM, ironsmile360 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:43:44 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/14/2014 7:34:29 AM, ironsmile360 wrote:
Religion/worship of a higher being has played a dominant role throughout the history of Mankind. In EVERY culture, race & creed. I myself have encountered both angels & a demon... Experienced miraculous healings, and prophetic events (on a small scale). So I ask, if there is no Creative higher power driving Mankind towards Itself, then how are we, being EXTREMELY complex... How are we all here, existing?

Evolution.

take a look at your car (if you have one) with all of its moving parts. It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that a car, with all of its complexity, just came to be... Just appear... Without a designer or builder, or anything with a creative consciousness to make it work. At this point I'm only talking about the body, and I haven't breached the complexity of the human mind, or it's ability to regenerate (though not infinitely), or the ability to procreate.

The designer, the builder, was nature.

It would be the same as YOU trying to convince me that the planets rotating around the sun, with all of its complex interactions and predestined routes, were being pushed around by invisible space pixies..... Without Nature, without gravity....

Nature, the natural laws, explain this. You can call the rotation of the planets around the sun, as "Designed", "Complex", etc, but the thing is, we have a good, natural explanation that accounts for why planets rotate around the sun without being flung off into a random path, or zigzag in a random pattern around the sun.

For me, it's impossible to think we are here by accident or chance.
please convince me with a logical argument against my statement in its entirety.

Youve just committed a logical fallacy, demonstrating that your position is illogical and irrational.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose... We will both be in the same place (the grave)... BUT if I'm right, then we would have to stand in front of our Creator. What happens after that would be according to His judgment.

Another logical fallacy. You assume that the only two options are "Either Im right, and the religion I chose is right, or I am wrong, and nothing happens."

Congrats. What if you are wrong, and I am wrong, and the Muslim is right? What will you say to the Creator? What if Judaism is right? Hinduism? What if the Westboro Baptist Church was right?

Decent argument.. Except at the end:
Muslim? Still judged by a higher power (Allah), and your infidel tongue would be cut out of your mouth, your testicles would be removed in much the same way & you would serve a good & faithful cleric (+his harem of virgin women) in the afterlife.

Sure. But dont you think the same thing might happen to you, if you are a christian? You heathen infidel unbeliever follower of a false religion lead by satan.

Hindu? Prepare, again prepare those two body parts for Shiva, and enjoy the next life you might be granted as a cockroach.

Again, sure.

Judaism: Jehovah grants an eternal reward to the righteous, so your testicles might be safe, but your tongue might be tossed into hell.

To nonbelievers who do not follow the commandments of the Torah? Last time I checked, no.

Westboro Baptist? All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ & you're in for life, no matter what you do after that.

Nope. As evidenced by their claims that all f@g enablers, including those that still accept Jesus Christ but allow or enable f@ggots, will still burn in hell.

I like the Baptist way of thinking, so pass me a beer and shut up sinner.

Okay.

But you see the point, dont you? No one could be a muslim and a hindu and a Jew and a Westboro Baptist member, at the same time. So, one way or another, if you are wrong, you could still end up in hell, tortured for eternity.

You have everything to lose. If you are wrong and the Muslims are right, you lose EVERYTHING.

This question& comment is ridiculous. I never once wrote in my statement that a person could be a member of those religions simultaneously, so stop watching The Life of Pi, and get back to reality.

You specifically said:

"But know that when we die, I have NOTHING to lose..."

I brought up the example of being in one religion, and another religion being correct, as an example of how your claim is WRONG.

My argument necessarily demonstrates how you are wrong.

2nd, I have a better chance of gaining access into heaven by Allah than you do, so wake up - you are farther away than you think.

How so? What if there is a God, but he rewards the Atheists for being rational, reasonable, and logical? And all the gullible christians, are burning in hell?
RHEMA.97
Posts: 42
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4/15/2014 11:13:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If atheist are right (which they arent) then theres nothing to loose after death.

If Im right and the atheist are wrong then They loose 4 ever.

If Im right means Im talking about religion. There are countless religions on earth how do I know which one is right. Its easy I would look on how that religion has affected the lives of its followers and I would look at how many people convert to that religion.

From what Ive stated then Christianity is the real deal . Then Ill try that religion out myself If I notice any positive change in myself then Yes I made the right choice.

And yes from being a christian ( not the so called christians of today ) I can see that Jesus is the only way and Christianity is the right way. Thats the reason why it tops other religions (due to the result it had on people's lives and their testimonies which make other religion want to convert).

Pascal wager shouldn't be about; being an atheist vs being a theist but,

should be between being an atheist vs a being a Christuan ( since christianity is the true religion that saves) ,

therefore we Christians would only loose some thing finte if we were wrong. e.g some luxury, pleasures

But If atheist were wrong then their loss is infinite. Eternal torment

In that sense we win (as always)

although pascal wager shouldnt be a motivation towards being a christian. The real motivation towards being a christian is genuine repantance , wanting to turn on a new leaf.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/15/2014 11:20:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 11:13:18 PM, RHEMA.97 wrote:
If atheist are right (which they arent) then theres nothing to loose after death.

If Im right and the atheist are wrong then They loose 4 ever.

If Im right means Im talking about religion. There are countless religions on earth how do I know which one is right. Its easy I would look on how that religion has affected the lives of its followers and I would look at how many people convert to that religion.

From what Ive stated then Christianity is the real deal . Then Ill try that religion out myself If I notice any positive change in myself then Yes I made the right choice.

And yes from being a christian ( not the so called christians of today ) I can see that Jesus is the only way and Christianity is the right way. Thats the reason why it tops other religions (due to the result it had on people's lives and their testimonies which make other religion want to convert).

Pascal wager shouldn't be about; being an atheist vs being a theist but,

should be between being an atheist vs a being a Christuan ( since christianity is the true religion that saves) ,

therefore we Christians would only loose some thing finte if we were wrong. e.g some luxury, pleasures

But If atheist were wrong then their loss is infinite. Eternal torment

In that sense we win (as always)

although pascal wager shouldnt be a motivation towards being a christian. The real motivation towards being a christian is genuine repantance , wanting to turn on a new leaf.

Being an atheist is sort of like masturbating. If you keep doing it you will grow hair on the palms of your hands and then go blind. So we intend to convert to Christianity in the future but we want to continue to be atheists until we need glasses.
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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4/15/2014 11:32:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Atheists do not claim to be right, Atheists do however, deploy reason and install rational thinking to better understand the universe rather than assert dogmatic claims and rely on faith to derive information, which I find to be profoundly asinine.