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why gay marriage should be legal

jkerr3
Posts: 177
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4/14/2014 8:09:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
First I want to make it clear that I am not gay nor am I pro gay, I just don't understand the anti gay marriage argument..... it's completely baseless. Here in america "IDK about other countries" we make our laws in alignment with the constitution. If something violates an individuals constitutional rights it should be illegal and if it doesn't then it should be legal. When two gay people get married what constitutional amendment is violated? Your free speech? your right to property?..... The fact is that the liberties of straight people are complete unaffected by gay marriage. The only real reasoning for people to be against gay marriage is their own religious bias. As far as I'm concerned you have every right to dislike gay people or choose not to associate with gay people, you can even go out in the street and protest against gay people. but when you try and make it a law you are now violating other peoples constitutional rights. We have a right to freedom of religion and if you pass a law based on biblical principals my freedom of religion has now been violated. I am being forced by law to do what the bible says, I am no longer free! Regardless of your moral/religious bias freedom comes first!

what are your thoughts?
jkerr3
Posts: 177
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4/14/2014 9:23:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 8:53:30 PM, Intrepid wrote:
My thoughts are that this belongs in the Society forum and not in the Religious forum.

hmm.... at first I thought it should go in politics, but there is a religious aspect to it which is why I put it here.
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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4/14/2014 9:23:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 9:23:13 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 8:53:30 PM, Intrepid wrote:
My thoughts are that this belongs in the Society forum and not in the Religious forum.

hmm.... at first I thought it should go in politics, but there is a religious aspect to it which is why I put it here.

Well do you want a religious arguments against gay marriage or do you want a secular argument against gay marriage?
bulproof
Posts: 25,309
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4/14/2014 10:12:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 9:23:55 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:23:13 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 8:53:30 PM, Intrepid wrote:
My thoughts are that this belongs in the Society forum and not in the Religious forum.

hmm.... at first I thought it should go in politics, but there is a religious aspect to it which is why I put it here.

Well do you want a religious arguments against gay marriage or do you want a secular argument against gay marriage?

I've never heard a secular argument against gay marriage. Unless by secular you mean non-religious based homophobia? But please do present a secualr argument against gay marriage.
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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4/14/2014 10:16:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:12:52 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:23:55 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:23:13 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 8:53:30 PM, Intrepid wrote:
My thoughts are that this belongs in the Society forum and not in the Religious forum.

hmm.... at first I thought it should go in politics, but there is a religious aspect to it which is why I put it here.

Well do you want a religious arguments against gay marriage or do you want a secular argument against gay marriage?

I've never heard a secular argument against gay marriage. Unless by secular you mean non-religious based homophobia? But please do present a secualr argument against gay marriage.

Now now, bulproof--you've heard a secular argument against gay marriage. You just haven't heard a good secular argument against gay marriage. Mostly, I suspect, because there aren't any.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/14/2014 10:27:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 8:09:19 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
First I want to make it clear that I am not gay nor am I pro gay,

what does that mean?
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
bulproof
Posts: 25,309
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4/14/2014 10:28:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:16:42 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:12:52 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:23:55 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:23:13 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 8:53:30 PM, Intrepid wrote:
My thoughts are that this belongs in the Society forum and not in the Religious forum.

hmm.... at first I thought it should go in politics, but there is a religious aspect to it which is why I put it here.

Well do you want a religious arguments against gay marriage or do you want a secular argument against gay marriage?

I've never heard a secular argument against gay marriage. Unless by secular you mean non-religious based homophobia? But please do present a secualr argument against gay marriage.

Now now, bulproof--you've heard a secular argument against gay marriage. You just haven't heard a good secular argument against gay marriage. Mostly, I suspect, because there aren't any.

I stand corrected Blade. mea culpa.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/14/2014 10:29:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 8:53:30 PM, Intrepid wrote:
My thoughts are that this belongs in the Society forum and not in the Religious forum.

most of societies ills are connected to religious ideology
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
Intrepid
Posts: 372
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4/14/2014 11:13:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 10:12:52 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:23:55 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:23:13 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 8:53:30 PM, Intrepid wrote:
My thoughts are that this belongs in the Society forum and not in the Religious forum.

hmm.... at first I thought it should go in politics, but there is a religious aspect to it which is why I put it here.

Well do you want a religious arguments against gay marriage or do you want a secular argument against gay marriage?

I've never heard a secular argument against gay marriage. Unless by secular you mean non-religious based homophobia? But please do present a secualr argument against gay marriage.

Ha, your talking to the best gay marriage debater since Contradiction. There are very good secular reasons to deny gay marriage. However, I prefer to keep my arguments a secret until I comeback to do my gay marriage debate with bsh1. It.'a going to be a grand time. In the meanwhile, you should look at some of xXCryptoXx's gay marriage arguments if you want the secular argument against gay marriage.
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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4/14/2014 11:18:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
By the way, why DO same-sex couples want to marry in the first place? What's the difference between marriage and an equivalent civil union? Sometimes it just seems to me like it's all about making a statement of equality to heterosexuals, and that gay people don't really want to get married for the marriage itself. What am I missing? This is a legitimate question.

In any civilized society, nobody should discriminate against gay people or tell them who to be with; that doesn't mean we have to agree with their lifestyle, or that I'm being discriminating by disapproving their lifestyle.
bulproof
Posts: 25,309
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4/14/2014 11:20:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:13:08 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/14/2014 10:12:52 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:23:55 PM, Intrepid wrote:
At 4/14/2014 9:23:13 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 8:53:30 PM, Intrepid wrote:
My thoughts are that this belongs in the Society forum and not in the Religious forum.

hmm.... at first I thought it should go in politics, but there is a religious aspect to it which is why I put it here.

Well do you want a religious arguments against gay marriage or do you want a secular argument against gay marriage?

I've never heard a secular argument against gay marriage. Unless by secular you mean non-religious based homophobia? But please do present a secualr argument against gay marriage.

Ha, your talking to the best gay marriage debater since Contradiction. There are very good secular reasons to deny gay marriage. However, I prefer to keep my arguments a secret until I comeback to do my gay marriage debate with bsh1. It.'a going to be a grand time. In the meanwhile, you should look at some of xXCryptoXx's gay marriage arguments if you want the secular argument against gay marriage.

Bragging obviously makes you feel better. Either bring it or f*ck off.
bulproof
Posts: 25,309
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4/14/2014 11:22:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:18:42 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
By the way, why DO same-sex couples want to marry in the first place? What's the difference between marriage and an equivalent civil union? Sometimes it just seems to me like it's all about making a statement of equality to heterosexuals, and that gay people don't really want to get married for the marriage itself. What am I missing? This is a legitimate question.

In any civilized society, nobody should discriminate against gay people or tell them who to be with; that doesn't mean we have to agree with their lifestyle, or that I'm being discriminating by disapproving their lifestyle.

Christians will henceforth only be permitted a civil union, everybody else can get married.

Happy now?
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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4/14/2014 11:31:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:22:44 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:18:42 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
By the way, why DO same-sex couples want to marry in the first place? What's the difference between marriage and an equivalent civil union? Sometimes it just seems to me like it's all about making a statement of equality to heterosexuals, and that gay people don't really want to get married for the marriage itself. What am I missing? This is a legitimate question.

In any civilized society, nobody should discriminate against gay people or tell them who to be with; that doesn't mean we have to agree with their lifestyle, or that I'm being discriminating by disapproving their lifestyle.

Christians will henceforth only be permitted a civil union, everybody else can get married.

Happy now?

No need to be aggressive. I come in peace.

The Christian view of marriage is that it is a covenant before God, and not the state. Anything else (the legal repercussions, changing surname etc) is man-made; a civil union, if you will.

And so, I ask again: What is the difference between a marriage and a civil union that is legally equal, from a secular point of view?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/14/2014 11:32:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:18:42 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
By the way, why DO same-sex couples want to marry in the first place? What's the difference between marriage and an equivalent civil union? Sometimes it just seems to me like it's all about making a statement of equality to heterosexuals, and that gay people don't really want to get married for the marriage itself. What am I missing? This is a legitimate question.

In any civilized society, nobody should discriminate against gay people or tell them who to be with; that doesn't mean we have to agree with their lifestyle, or that I'm being discriminating by disapproving their lifestyle.

There are still some laws and benefits that apply to marriage that do not apply to civil unions. Id have to look into to it to find out which ones.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
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4/14/2014 11:38:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:31:28 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:22:44 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:18:42 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
By the way, why DO same-sex couples want to marry in the first place? What's the difference between marriage and an equivalent civil union? Sometimes it just seems to me like it's all about making a statement of equality to heterosexuals, and that gay people don't really want to get married for the marriage itself. What am I missing? This is a legitimate question.

In any civilized society, nobody should discriminate against gay people or tell them who to be with; that doesn't mean we have to agree with their lifestyle, or that I'm being discriminating by disapproving their lifestyle.

Christians will henceforth only be permitted a civil union, everybody else can get married.

Happy now?

No need to be aggressive. I come in peace.

The Christian view of marriage is that it is a covenant before God, and not the state. Anything else (the legal repercussions, changing surname etc) is man-made; a civil union, if you will.

And so, I ask again: What is the difference between a marriage and a civil union that is legally equal, from a secular point of view?

Separate but equal, to sum it up in three words. Either call everything a marriage, or everything a civil union. I don't really care which word you use, but it has long been established that setting up two separate, discriminatory systems and then claiming that they're equal doesn't quite suffice.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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4/14/2014 11:48:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:18:42 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
By the way, why DO same-sex couples want to marry in the first place? What's the difference between marriage and an equivalent civil union? Sometimes it just seems to me like it's all about making a statement of equality to heterosexuals, and that gay people don't really want to get married for the marriage itself. What am I missing? This is a legitimate question.


God forbid they want to actually be equal with heterosexuals.

In any civilized society, nobody should discriminate against gay people or tell them who to be with; that doesn't mean we have to agree with their lifestyle, or that I'm being discriminating by disapproving their lifestyle.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
bulproof
Posts: 25,309
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4/14/2014 11:56:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:31:28 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:22:44 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:18:42 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
By the way, why DO same-sex couples want to marry in the first place? What's the difference between marriage and an equivalent civil union? Sometimes it just seems to me like it's all about making a statement of equality to heterosexuals, and that gay people don't really want to get married for the marriage itself. What am I missing? This is a legitimate question.

In any civilized society, nobody should discriminate against gay people or tell them who to be with; that doesn't mean we have to agree with their lifestyle, or that I'm being discriminating by disapproving their lifestyle.

Christians will henceforth only be permitted a civil union, everybody else can get married.

Happy now?

No need to be aggressive. I come in peace.

The Christian view of marriage is that it is a covenant before God, and not the state. Anything else (the legal repercussions, changing surname etc) is man-made; a civil union, if you will.

And so, I ask again: What is the difference between a marriage and a civil union that is legally equal, from a secular point of view?

What is the difference between a marriage and a marriage that is legally equal?
Religions, none of them no not one, invented marriage and therefore have no ownership rights to the word. If they don't like the idea have your god invent a new word for whatever it is your god wants it to be. He must spend his entire day talking to all the people he talks to, just get him to give the same message to those millions simultaneously and you'll know what word he wants. Easy as.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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4/14/2014 11:59:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:18:42 PM, Kerfluffer wrote:
By the way, why DO same-sex couples want to marry in the first place? What's the difference between marriage and an equivalent civil union? Sometimes it just seems to me like it's all about making a statement of equality to heterosexuals, and that gay people don't really want to get married for the marriage itself. What am I missing? This is a legitimate question.

In any civilized society, nobody should discriminate against gay people or tell them who to be with; that doesn't mean we have to agree with their lifestyle, or that I'm being discriminating by disapproving their lifestyle.

"...(M)aking a statement of equality...". By George! I think you've got it! It's all about equality. Last time I checked, this was America; in which all men, and women, are created equal.
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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4/15/2014 12:06:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Separate but equal, to sum it up in three words. Either call everything a marriage, or everything a civil union. I don't really care which word you use, but it has long been established that setting up two separate, discriminatory systems and then claiming that they're equal doesn't quite suffice.

Thank you for actually answering my question. My idea was that keeping two kinds of unions as legally equal would be a fair kind of compromise on both parts. But I agree that it will not help with discrimination.
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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4/15/2014 12:18:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
God forbid they want to actually be equal with heterosexuals.
They should be. That was not the point I wanted to make. I'm just saying that marriage might not be what some people want, but do it anyway to stick it to those who discriminate against them. Not saying they do it consciously, or that people who want to marry for legitimate reasons should be forbidden because of it.

I just believe that marriage in the current state of society is overrated, with people living together years before marriage and with divorce rates being so high. Once same-sex marriage becomes accessible and more mainstream, there will be less same-sex couples who want to get married.
bulproof
Posts: 25,309
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4/15/2014 12:21:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 12:18:49 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
God forbid they want to actually be equal with heterosexuals.
They should be. That was not the point I wanted to make. I'm just saying that marriage might not be what some people want, but do it anyway to stick it to those who discriminate against them. Not saying they do it consciously, or that people who want to marry for legitimate reasons should be forbidden because of it.

I just believe that marriage in the current state of society is overrated, with people living together years before marriage and with divorce rates being so high. Once same-sex marriage becomes accessible and more mainstream, there will be less same-sex couples who want to get married.

And you have the results of legitimate surveys to support this? Or you're just whistling dixie?
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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4/15/2014 12:27:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 12:21:15 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/15/2014 12:18:49 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
God forbid they want to actually be equal with heterosexuals.
They should be. That was not the point I wanted to make. I'm just saying that marriage might not be what some people want, but do it anyway to stick it to those who discriminate against them. Not saying they do it consciously, or that people who want to marry for legitimate reasons should be forbidden because of it.

I just believe that marriage in the current state of society is overrated, with people living together years before marriage and with divorce rates being so high. Once same-sex marriage becomes accessible and more mainstream, there will be less same-sex couples who want to get married.

And you have the results of legitimate surveys to support this? Or you're just whistling dixie?
And you continue to be aggressive for no reason. I was going to ignore your previous message, but you really do want to pick a fight. Well, I'm not giving you a fight. Now go sit in the corner.
Fruitytree
Posts: 2,176
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4/15/2014 12:30:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 8:09:19 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
First I want to make it clear that I am not gay nor am I pro gay, I just don't understand the anti gay marriage argument..... it's completely baseless. Here in america "IDK about other countries" we make our laws in alignment with the constitution. If something violates an individuals constitutional rights it should be illegal and if it doesn't then it should be legal. When two gay people get married what constitutional amendment is violated? Your free speech? your right to property?..... The fact is that the liberties of straight people are complete unaffected by gay marriage. The only real reasoning for people to be against gay marriage is their own religious bias. As far as I'm concerned you have every right to dislike gay people or choose not to associate with gay people, you can even go out in the street and protest against gay people. but when you try and make it a law you are now violating other peoples constitutional rights. We have a right to freedom of religion and if you pass a law based on biblical principals my freedom of religion has now been violated. I am being forced by law to do what the bible says, I am no longer free! Regardless of your moral/religious bias freedom comes first!

what are your thoughts?

Answering the title:

Your gay union shouldn't be called marriage, marriage is for heterosexuals only, the purpose is establishing rights and obligations towards each other and towards legitimate children.

Why would a gay couple want their union to be called marriage?! this is abuse!
bulproof
Posts: 25,309
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4/15/2014 1:03:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 12:27:20 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
At 4/15/2014 12:21:15 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/15/2014 12:18:49 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
God forbid they want to actually be equal with heterosexuals.
They should be. That was not the point I wanted to make. I'm just saying that marriage might not be what some people want, but do it anyway to stick it to those who discriminate against them. Not saying they do it consciously, or that people who want to marry for legitimate reasons should be forbidden because of it.

I just believe that marriage in the current state of society is overrated, with people living together years before marriage and with divorce rates being so high. Once same-sex marriage becomes accessible and more mainstream, there will be less same-sex couples who want to get married.

And you have the results of legitimate surveys to support this? Or you're just whistling dixie?
And you continue to be aggressive for no reason. I was going to ignore your previous message, but you really do want to pick a fight. Well, I'm not giving you a fight. Now go sit in the corner.
Grow up. You made a claim I asked you to support the claim and in reply you snivel and feel attacked.

It's your totally stupid claim that I attacked, grow up.
Kerfluffer
Posts: 123
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4/15/2014 1:12:14 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 1:03:37 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/15/2014 12:27:20 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
At 4/15/2014 12:21:15 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/15/2014 12:18:49 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
God forbid they want to actually be equal with heterosexuals.
They should be. That was not the point I wanted to make. I'm just saying that marriage might not be what some people want, but do it anyway to stick it to those who discriminate against them. Not saying they do it consciously, or that people who want to marry for legitimate reasons should be forbidden because of it.

I just believe that marriage in the current state of society is overrated, with people living together years before marriage and with divorce rates being so high. Once same-sex marriage becomes accessible and more mainstream, there will be less same-sex couples who want to get married.

And you have the results of legitimate surveys to support this? Or you're just whistling dixie?
And you continue to be aggressive for no reason. I was going to ignore your previous message, but you really do want to pick a fight. Well, I'm not giving you a fight. Now go sit in the corner.
Grow up. You made a claim I asked you to support the claim and in reply you snivel and feel attacked.

It's your totally stupid claim that I attacked, grow up.
Right way:
Do you have any sources to backup your claim?
Wrong way:
...Or you're just whistling dixie?

Right way:
I'm sorry if I seemed offensive, but all I did was to ask for any sources that backup your claim. Please do tell me how you came up with it.
Wrong way:
[...]You snivel and feel attacked. It's your totally stupid claim that I attacked, grow up.

See the difference?
bulproof
Posts: 25,309
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4/15/2014 1:31:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 1:17:11 AM, Kerfluffer wrote:
I asked you to support the claim
Also, if you ask me nicely enough, I might think about it.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to pretend that I care for your hurt feelings, I'm not here to stroke anybody's ego.

I'm here to ask the believer questions that scare the sh1t out of him and hopefully shock him into thinking.

Not an effective tactic, perhaps, but more enjoyable than playing nursemaid to him.
Jingram994
Posts: 211
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4/15/2014 1:50:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/15/2014 12:30:08 AM, Fruitytree wrote:

Answering the title:

Your gay union shouldn't be called marriage, marriage is for heterosexuals only, the purpose is establishing rights and obligations towards each other and towards legitimate children.

No, the 'purpose' of marriage in the modern, civilized world is to affirm actual legal rights and benefits to a romantically and sexually involved couple's relationship. The fact that people can get married and not have children, and that sterile and old people can get married, shows that reproduction does not have anything at all to do with this. There is no legitimate, non-religious reason for there to be any difference in any aspect, right down to the name, in this regard.

Why would a gay couple want their union to be called marriage?! this is abuse!

How? Please explain how other people being legally allowed to get married and have the same rights and benefits as you get violates your rights.