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Born Depraved

FLMinistries
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4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable. Therefore, children must be under grace or held without blame until they are aware and capable of learning about and dealing with their sin. Though persuasive, this is not Biblical whatsoever, on the contrary the Word teaches to the opposite.

Adam ate of tree of good and evil but this was not a matter of merely doing something wrong. The significance of Adam taking the fruit of the tree was that he received "sin" into himself. The fruit being sin. As such Jesus states "Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit." Man is considered by scripture as a olive tree, a olive tree produces fruit and man's fruit is their offspring. If man be corrupt by sin and death in his members then his fruit which is his offspring also bears the same corruptness in its members.

The unregenerated man is wholly disordered and depraved. In Mark 7:21 we read "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts". Here "men" is generically, to include all human individuals. Titus 1:15 says "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled". The natural state is quite frail and prone to sin. Scripture tells us that the light of the natural conscience is in evil, sin, it is very defective; it cannot check sin, because it spiritually discerns it not.

In Romans 5:6 Paul says "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly". To whom does the terms "without strength" and "ungodly" not apply? "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Rom. 5:12. "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" Rom. 5:18. "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Rom 3:10. "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one" Psa. 14:3. In Psalms we see that "gone aside" means several things: i. depart by own will , ii. to be removed by force, and iii. by position to leave undone. Which one fits this statement by David? We are answered in the next statement with "all together" which means united or all alike and hence David is saying by "gone aside" to mean by position all are left undone. The common understanding is that we are born under, and in the state of sin. Hence all men are born guilty and a sinner. "What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?" Job 15:14.

Scripture also teaches that "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Rom. 3:23. "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" Rom. 3:19. The sin of man is not out of ignorance or innocence but instead a deliberate act of our natural fallen stature. It is not truth that only by the grace of God are any saved being that we all deserve eternal death and hell? Would it not be more horrendous to allow children to grow into condemnation?

The issue is solved by Scripture. Eternal damnation is the result for all born by the wicked world, outside the community of faith. "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies" Psa. 58:3. "The seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities. For I will rise up against them, saith the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the Lord" Isa 14:20-22. "Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men" Psa. 21:10.

Therefore unless the entire world including infants are under sin from birth, Christ's death on the cross is of no effect. If God could save people by other means than Christ, then people of any age or location could be saved apart from faith in Christ. This also applies to arguments of ignorance and innocence as well (where I have changed my view). The scripture should be littered with statements that show age requirements or ignorance but in actuality there is no passages that can attest to this belief. "But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men" 1 Cor. 1:23-25. From the time of Adam only one person at all has been Holy and innocent and that is Jesus Christ.

Many willfully reject God and by such teach their children to and hold their children under condemnation. Does not the work on the cross illustrate the seriousness of the human condition? The underlining Biblical doctrine shows the total depravity of man from birth yet man looks at himself and his children to find his own justification separate from Christ.

Why are children of the wicked born graceless while children of faith are accounted righteous? "But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children" Psa 103:17. "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy" 1 Cor. 7:14. To those who teach the age of accountability; their theory collapses under the fact that many children have full awareness of their sinfulness and need of repentance as early as 4, 5 and 6. Furthermore, if a child in a family of faith dies prior to their own convert they are imputed grace under the promise of God under "the solidarity of the family".

Didn't Jesus give special blessing on Children? These passages are (Mat 18:1-6; Mark 9:34-37, 42; Mark 18:10, 14; Mark 19:13-15, Luke 18:15-17; Mark 10:13-16) If one looks carefully there is no statement declaring grace or salvation because a child is a child. But on the contrary the example of the child brings to light the need for "Humbleness" and "simple believing". Jesus is pointing to the ease of simple faith in a child and that is which one needs for entering heaven.

The scriptures teach to raise our children "in the admonition of the Lord" and to "train up our children in the way he should go". It would make no sense to teach children in Sunday school, Vacation Bible schools, and etc etc if salvation of children is sure. It would be better to leave them be in ignorance and innocence. It further would make sense to stop preaching salvation to the unknowing heathen so they can be saved by ignorance themselves. If salvation and grace could come in any other way but the gospel of Christ then the Great Commission is a joke and cruel to all who have been taught the need of salvation. The truth is that every person is born under the seed of Adam, is in need of Christ, and without Him alone is dead, bound to sin, and without any hope. Hence forth all are born into sin and must have the blood of Christ for salvation
arielmessenger
Posts: 30
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4/16/2014 7:57:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
FLMinistries is what is depraved. Please stop posting blasphemy.

Read your Bible: Genesis One where God told you God made men and women in God's image and made them "good, very good indeed." So when you take Paul's blasphemy as your own and try to preach human beings, each one born in the image of God, are born as sinners, then you, blasphemer, are accusing God of being a sinner too!

Do not preach your religious baloney any more. You obviously do not know what you're talking about when you preach Pauline Gentile nonsense instead of following Jesus' where again, you blaspheme, this time Jesus' teachings to never ever harm children and here you are condemning innocent children to be worthy of attack as sinners. You are one sick twist and not a Christian. Go and learn what it is to be a Christian which is not being a Bible idolator.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/16/2014 8:06:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable. Therefore, children must be under grace or held without blame until they are aware and capable of learning about and dealing with their sin. Though persuasive, this is not Biblical whatsoever, on the contrary the Word teaches to the opposite.

I'm sorry, this is where I stopped reading. If this is true, God is evil. Full stop.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,482
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4/16/2014 8:35:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable. Therefore, children must be under grace or held without blame until they are aware and capable of learning about and dealing with their sin. Though persuasive, this is not Biblical whatsoever, on the contrary the Word teaches to the opposite.

Everybody must be innocent without blame, free from original sin including you because Adam didnt affirm you that he is going to eat the apple, why should i be punished for Adams sin!? where is the logic? did you punish your child for other evil people like rapists? you know God is must just and he wont do such thing.
Never fart near dog
POPOO5560
Posts: 2,482
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4/16/2014 8:37:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 8:35:15 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable. Therefore, children must be under grace or held without blame until they are aware and capable of learning about and dealing with their sin. Though persuasive, this is not Biblical whatsoever, on the contrary the Word teaches to the opposite.

Everybody must be innocent without blame, free from original sin including you because Adam didnt affirm you that he is going to eat the apple, why should i be punished for Adams sin!? where is the logic? did you punish your child for other evil people like rapists? you know God is must just and he wont do such thing.

must to be*
Never fart near dog
FLMinistries
Posts: 133
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4/16/2014 8:48:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 8:06:32 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable. Therefore, children must be under grace or held without blame until they are aware and capable of learning about and dealing with their sin. Though persuasive, this is not Biblical whatsoever, on the contrary the Word teaches to the opposite.

I'm sorry, this is where I stopped reading. If this is true, God is evil. Full stop.

Nah you got that backwards buddy, man is evil. Totally depraved from his beginnings.
FLMinistries
Posts: 133
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4/16/2014 8:50:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 8:35:15 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable. Therefore, children must be under grace or held without blame until they are aware and capable of learning about and dealing with their sin. Though persuasive, this is not Biblical whatsoever, on the contrary the Word teaches to the opposite.

Everybody must be innocent without blame, free from original sin including you because Adam didnt affirm you that he is going to eat the apple, why should i be punished for Adams sin!? where is the logic? did you punish your child for other evil people like rapists? you know God is must just and he wont do such thing.

It is totally just and who is man that he knows better than God? If we are born separated from God, in sin, and in our members corrupt then we deserve hell. What is unjust is the not the punishment from a Holy God.
POPOO5560
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4/16/2014 9:15:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 8:50:52 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
At 4/16/2014 8:35:15 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable. Therefore, children must be under grace or held without blame until they are aware and capable of learning about and dealing with their sin. Though persuasive, this is not Biblical whatsoever, on the contrary the Word teaches to the opposite.

Everybody must be innocent without blame, free from original sin including you because Adam didnt affirm you that he is going to eat the apple, why should i be punished for Adams sin!? where is the logic? did you punish your child for other evil people like rapists? you know God is must just and he wont do such thing.

It is totally just and who is man that he knows better than God? If we are born separated from God, in sin, and in our members corrupt then we deserve hell. What is unjust is the not the punishment from a Holy God.

Its true God knows best, but this is simple basic reasoning and its allways true, like 1+1 =2 not 5. like that basic logic telling us that you did evil thing, you will get what you deserve according to your evil deed and vice versa, also you did nothing evil, the result will be nothing. everybody, every nation is ruled by these things. we dont go out of our way and punish the innocent instead of the murderers. or you have a good reason to believe its true, i cant see it.
Never fart near dog
FLMinistries
Posts: 133
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4/16/2014 9:22:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 9:15:08 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 4/16/2014 8:50:52 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
At 4/16/2014 8:35:15 AM, POPOO5560 wrote:
At 4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable. Therefore, children must be under grace or held without blame until they are aware and capable of learning about and dealing with their sin. Though persuasive, this is not Biblical whatsoever, on the contrary the Word teaches to the opposite.

Everybody must be innocent without blame, free from original sin including you because Adam didnt affirm you that he is going to eat the apple, why should i be punished for Adams sin!? where is the logic? did you punish your child for other evil people like rapists? you know God is must just and he wont do such thing.

It is totally just and who is man that he knows better than God? If we are born separated from God, in sin, and in our members corrupt then we deserve hell. What is unjust is the not the punishment from a Holy God.


Its true God knows best, but this is simple basic reasoning and its allways true, like 1+1 =2 not 5. like that basic logic telling us that you did evil thing, you will get what you deserve according to your evil deed and vice versa, also you did nothing evil, the result will be nothing. everybody, every nation is ruled by these things. we dont go out of our way and punish the innocent instead of the murderers. or you have a good reason to believe its true, i cant see it.

One our reasoning is vain. Our logic is vain. There is abundant reasoning Biblically, none are innocent.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/16/2014 9:26:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 8:48:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
At 4/16/2014 8:06:32 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable. Therefore, children must be under grace or held without blame until they are aware and capable of learning about and dealing with their sin. Though persuasive, this is not Biblical whatsoever, on the contrary the Word teaches to the opposite.

I'm sorry, this is where I stopped reading. If this is true, God is evil. Full stop.

Nah you got that backwards buddy, man is evil. Totally depraved from his beginnings.

And apparently so is God according to you.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/16/2014 9:31:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark.

exclusively?
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
popculturepooka
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4/16/2014 9:36:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
"The notion that a creature born imperfect, nay born with impulses to evil not of his own generating, and which he could not help having, a creature to whom the true face of God was never presented, and by whom it never could have been seen, should be thus condemned (to hell), is as loathsome a lie against God as could find place in a heart too undeveloped to understand what justice is, and too low to look up into the face of Jesus. It never in truth found a place in any heart, though in many a pettifogging brain. There is but one thing lower than deliberately to believe such a lie, and that is to worship the God of whom it is believed."

-- George MacDonald
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/16/2014 9:37:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 7:57:15 AM, arielmessenger wrote:
FLMinistries is what is depraved. Please stop posting blasphemy.

Read your Bible: Genesis One where God told you God made men and women in God's image and made them "good, very good indeed."
hmmm but then you can't ignore this
gen 8:21
"21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though[a] every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood."

something isn't adding up with your humanistic view verses gods inconsistent view of humanity...also you are going to have to reconcile your sentiment with 2 cor 6:14
the unbeliever is still born in the image of god, yet is wicked and of the dark because of their unbelief, i find that very problematic...again a rather strange position you are holding, although i agree, but being that you seem to know who this god is, i'm just curious as to how you reconcile these very different sentiments you gravitate to while ignoring the parts you don't agree with...

So when you take Paul's blasphemy as your own and try to preach human beings, each one born in the image of God, are born as sinners, then you, blasphemer, are accusing God of being a sinner too!

Do not preach your religious baloney any more. You obviously do not know what you're talking about when you preach Pauline Gentile nonsense instead of following Jesus' where again, you blaspheme, this time Jesus' teachings to never ever harm children and here you are condemning innocent children to be worthy of attack as sinners. You are one sick twist and not a Christian. Go and learn what it is to be a Christian which is not being a Bible idolator.
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
FLMinistries
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4/16/2014 9:40:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 9:26:11 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/16/2014 8:48:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
At 4/16/2014 8:06:32 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable. Therefore, children must be under grace or held without blame until they are aware and capable of learning about and dealing with their sin. Though persuasive, this is not Biblical whatsoever, on the contrary the Word teaches to the opposite.

I'm sorry, this is where I stopped reading. If this is true, God is evil. Full stop.

Nah you got that backwards buddy, man is evil. Totally depraved from his beginnings.

And apparently so is God according to you.

No actually it is according to the Bible and who are you to question a Holy God? Who are you to impute your human logic and reason upon a Holy God? If children are innocent then the Bible should clearly state it for us right? I mean it must to be true shouldn't it? Hence unless you supply scripture showing as such then all your logic and reason means nothing, it is vain.
annanicole
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4/16/2014 9:41:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
FLMinistries: "Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable."

Anna: Are you now holding that God WILL all a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation? I thought in the past you had claimed that they would sin as infants (although 'tis true that you never pointed out the sin), but since they were ignorant of the sin, God let them get by with it.

"the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Eze 18: 20)

FLMinistries; "This also applies to arguments of ignorance and innocence as well (where I have changed my view). The scripture should be littered with statements that show age requirements or ignorance but in actuality there is no passages that can attest to this belief."

Anna: Again, are you saying that you have "changed your view" within just the last few days? You are now saying that God will condemn an infant to hell?

FLMinistries: "Why are children of the wicked born graceless while children of faith are accounted righteous?"

Anna: Surely you are kidding. That Opening Statement up there ranks right along with MadCornish's Jehovah's Witness nonsense.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
FLMinistries
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4/16/2014 9:51:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 9:41:30 AM, annanicole wrote:
FLMinistries: "Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable."

Anna: Are you now holding that God WILL all a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation?

I am.

I thought in the past you had claimed that they would sin as infants (although 'tis true that you never pointed out the sin), but since they were ignorant of the sin, God let them get by with it.

It is not scriptural.

"the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Eze 18: 20)

Exodus 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 34:7
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18
The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

etc. etc.

But the children commit the same iniquity and hence pay for their sin and their fathers sin consequence comes upon them after their father as Adams upon all his sons.

FLMinistries; "This also applies to arguments of ignorance and innocence as well (where I have changed my view). The scripture should be littered with statements that show age requirements or ignorance but in actuality there is no passages that can attest to this belief."

Anna: Again, are you saying that you have "changed your view" within just the last few days? You are now saying that God will condemn an infant to hell?

I can change my view when it is wrong and SCRIPTURE shows it wrong. You helped some but it was lack of scriptural support that did it. Yes God can condemn a infant to hell. Got scripture that says He will not, that they are innocent, have grace, blameless, are without sin?

FLMinistries: "Why are children of the wicked born graceless while children of faith are accounted righteous?"

Anna: Surely you are kidding. That Opening Statement up there ranks right along with MadCornish's Jehovah's Witness nonsense.

Yet you gave not one piece of scripture, not ONE, that is regular with you. You live by Annas logic and not God's Word. Anna will never change hear doctrine because it is Annas doctrine and not God's. I have just shown I will change when it is not Biblically supportive. Yet infants sinless and innocent is not in scripture and you will not give any to show it either and hence it is not sound doctrine. I could careless about you logic and reason, I care about scriptures.
perplexed
Posts: 863
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4/16/2014 10:01:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 9:51:40 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
At 4/16/2014 9:41:30 AM, annanicole wrote:
FLMinistries: "Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable."

Anna: Are you now holding that God WILL all a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation?

I am.

I thought in the past you had claimed that they would sin as infants (although 'tis true that you never pointed out the sin), but since they were ignorant of the sin, God let them get by with it.

It is not scriptural.

"the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." (Eze 18: 20)

Exodus 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 34:7
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18
The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

etc. etc.

But the children commit the same iniquity and hence pay for their sin and their fathers sin consequence comes upon them after their father as Adams upon all his sons.

FLMinistries; "This also applies to arguments of ignorance and innocence as well (where I have changed my view). The scripture should be littered with statements that show age requirements or ignorance but in actuality there is no passages that can attest to this belief."

Anna: Again, are you saying that you have "changed your view" within just the last few days? You are now saying that God will condemn an infant to hell?

I can change my view when it is wrong and SCRIPTURE shows it wrong. You helped some but it was lack of scriptural support that did it. Yes God can condemn a infant to hell. Got scripture that says He will not, that they are innocent, have grace, blameless, are without sin?

FLMinistries: "Why are children of the wicked born graceless while children of faith are accounted righteous?"

Anna: Surely you are kidding. That Opening Statement up there ranks right along with MadCornish's Jehovah's Witness nonsense.

Yet you gave not one piece of scripture, not ONE, that is regular with you. You live by Annas logic and not God's Word.

interesting...is god so stupid that he can't work with Anna's logic? or is that you?
and we all know that gods word interpreted by you is the word we should all live by, wait are you god?
: At 4/29/2014 3:14:36 AM, annanicole wrote:

:
: I'll be happy to concede the raping of virgin girls, if you can find it somewhere.
annanicole
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4/16/2014 10:24:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
FLMinistries: "Why are children of the wicked born graceless while children of faith are accounted righteous?"

Anna: Surely you are kidding. That Opening Statement up there ranks right along with MadCornish's Jehovah's Witness nonsense.

FLMinistries: Yet you gave not one piece of scripture, not ONE, that is regular with you. You live by Annas logic and not God's Word. Anna will never change hear doctrine because it is Annas doctrine and not God's. I have just shown I will change when it is not Biblically supportive. Yet infants sinless and innocent is not in scripture and you will not give any to show it either and hence it is not sound doctrine. I could careless about you logic and reason, I care about scriptures.

Anna: All you did was went off further into error. I said that full-blown Calvinistic total hereditary depravity was more consistent than what you were teaching. I said that "having a little Calvinism is like having a little bit of AIDS, or a little touch of herpes." I did say that a full-blown Calvinist would eat your lunch - not because he is right, but because you were inconsistent.

FLMinistries: "I care about scriptures."

Anna: That's why you repeatedly cite certain scriptures as "proof", when they do not come close to teaching what you are teaching.

Example: you cite Psa. 58:3,

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies"

You cite it as if David was not employing any poetic license, as if he was not utilizing figures of speech. God expects you and everyone else to use a little common sense. Have you ever seen or heard of an infant who "went astray as soon as it be born, speaking lies"? Have you? You tried to imply earlier that the gibberish they speak might be a lie or might be deceptive. Pffffffft.

On that particular passage, you ultimately said, "I don't have to demonstrate it or prove it. The Bible says it, and I believe it: I take it at face value." And that's the problem. The Bible, and David especially, frequently employs high figures (although this is not one). David is merely lamenting the pervasiveness of sin and the sinful state of Israel at the time.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
FLMinistries
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4/16/2014 10:25:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 7:57:15 AM, arielmessenger wrote:
FLMinistries is what is depraved. Please stop posting blasphemy.

We will see. Blasphemy is going against scripture and/or holding doctrine not in scripture, lets see if you pass the test.

Read your Bible: Genesis One where God told you God made men and women in God's image and made them "good, very good indeed."

Indeed he did but what happened? Did you miss the verses where Adam ate the tree God said do not eat and hence fell from grace and became sinful, was cursed? Surely you did not miss that.

So when you take Paul's blasphemy as your own and try to preach human beings, each one born in the image of God, are born as sinners, then you, blasphemer, are accusing God of being a sinner too!

Paul's blasphemy, well, I could now cease from responding to you because you are without the Spirit of God and are a living vile thing in the sight of God. Me, I am covered by the blood of Christ and His righteousness covers me as it did Paul. Hence you speak against Paul whom all the apostles supported and the early saints and hence you call them supporting blasphemers. You are lost in confusion. We are born sinners, dead in trespasses. God is not able to sin, it is against his nature regardless if in flesh or in spirit. Hence you do not even know God and His character to even bring such a silly remark up. Jesus Christ being God could no more sin than the Father.

Do not preach your religious baloney any more. You obviously do not know what you're talking about when you preach Pauline Gentile nonsense instead of following Jesus' where again, you blaspheme, this time Jesus' teachings to never ever harm children and here you are condemning innocent children to be worthy of attack as sinners. You are one sick twist and not a Christian. Go and learn what it is to be a Christian which is not being a Bible idolator.

I will preach and preach till Jesus comes as the Great Commission commands. You need preaching and specifically from Paul but any Paul supporting apostles will do. It appears you do not know what you are talking about. You know not scripture and neither did you use scripture to show I am wrong and it behooves you to when discussing the Bible. A Bible idolator? Well that is such stupid. Jesus said how many times "Ye know not scriptures" and what did Paul, Titus, Peter say? "Follow our doctrines" "Study to shew yourself approved" and etc. etc. Again you are not worth respond to in the future you bring no substance to such a discussion.
popculturepooka
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4/16/2014 10:27:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 9:40:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
At 4/16/2014 9:26:11 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/16/2014 8:48:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
At 4/16/2014 8:06:32 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/16/2014 5:33:25 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
Depravity is the mark of corruption or wickedness and I will contend here that man is born with this mark. An emotional appeal (as I have held) is that God would never allow a small, innocent child to suffer eternal damnation because if He did it is not only unjust but despicable. Therefore, children must be under grace or held without blame until they are aware and capable of learning about and dealing with their sin. Though persuasive, this is not Biblical whatsoever, on the contrary the Word teaches to the opposite.

I'm sorry, this is where I stopped reading. If this is true, God is evil. Full stop.

Nah you got that backwards buddy, man is evil. Totally depraved from his beginnings.

And apparently so is God according to you.

No actually it is according to the Bible and who are you to question a Holy God? Who are you to impute your human logic and reason upon a Holy God? If children are innocent then the Bible should clearly state it for us right? I mean it must to be true shouldn't it? Hence unless you supply scripture showing as such then all your logic and reason means nothing, it is vain.

Fun fact: your interpretation if God's word =/= God's word. It amazes me how people can put abolutely no distance between their interpretation of God and God. So anyone who questions their interpretation is tantamount to questioning God. smh

Also, the bible defines God's holiness in terms of his mercy. How do you consider it a mercy to damn a child to eternal torment?

How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
""""How can I hand you over, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
""""How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart recoils within me;
""""my compassion grows warm and tender.
9"I will not execute my burning anger;
""""I will not again destroy Ephraim;
for I am God and not a man,
""""the Holy One in your midst,
""""and I will not come in wrath
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
FLMinistries
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4/16/2014 10:36:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 10:24:01 AM, annanicole wrote:

Anna: All you did was went off further into error. I said that full-blown Calvinistic total hereditary depravity was more consistent than what you were teaching. I said that "having a little Calvinism is like having a little bit of AIDS, or a little touch of herpes." I did say that a full-blown Calvinist would eat your lunch - not because he is right, but because you were inconsistent.

I looked and nope there was not any scriptures just Anna spouting her opinion which means very little.

FLMinistries: "I care about scriptures."

Anna: That's why you repeatedly cite certain scriptures as "proof", when they do not come close to teaching what you are teaching.

Show the are not Anna. That is the point all you do is spout Anna heretical doctrine that needs no scripture.

Example: you cite Psa. 58:3,

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies"

You cite it as if David was not employing any poetic license, as if he was not utilizing figures of speech. God expects you and everyone else to use a little common sense.

Really? Where is this in scripture? Where does God expect us to use our own sense and logic out of scripture? No scripture Teaches GOD is knowledge and wisdom and seek His, not your own.

Have you ever seen or heard of an infant who "went astray as soon as it be born, speaking lies"? Have you? You tried to imply earlier that the gibberish they speak might be a lie or might be deceptive. Pffffffft.

Scripture is from God, given by God, and hence God knows your heart. Your heart and mind speaks within itself, you know you do think do not you? God knows that and yes I, you, and anyone including infants can lie within our minds and hearts. Pffffttt. Now show infants cannot lie in their heart! Show they are not sinners or cannot commit sin.

On that particular passage, you ultimately said, "I don't have to demonstrate it or prove it. The Bible says it, and I believe it: I take it at face value." And that's the problem. The Bible, and David especially, frequently employs high figures (although this is not one). David is merely lamenting the pervasiveness of sin and the sinful state of Israel at the time.

Now your reasoning of not listening to the Bible. Well you do not have too but I will. Ignore the Word of God. David is very clear "went astray as soon as it be born".

"I.belly, womb, body"

I.to err, wander, go astray, stagger
annanicole
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4/16/2014 10:39:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
"So anyone who questions their interpretation is tantamount to questioning God. smh"

And anyone who opposes their frequently absurd notions is "attacking God".

First Witness: MadCornishBiker

"So, bring it on people, serious questions preferred but even Anna, composer and Bulproof are welcome to keep up their manic attacks on God here. Attacks on God? Yes because as he has shown in the past, attacking his people has always meant attacking him in is eyes."

I learned from that that opposing the peculiar doctrines of the WatchTower/Jehovah's Witnesses is, in reality, attacking God! Now I find that opposing the total depravity doctrines of FLMinistries is "questioning God". The trouble with all of this is that MadCornish and FLMinistries teach contradictory doctrines! Yet to oppose the former is to "attack God" and to oppose the latter is to "question God". Rather amazing.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
TheWarrior
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4/16/2014 10:47:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
FLMinistries, this is some of the most twisted theology I have heard. Yes, we are born sinful. No, babies are not condemned to hell if they die. As for your condemnation of them, do you know the mind of God? Who are you to condemn anyone? When did God give you the right to condemn? We are never told to condemn. We are told to love.
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FLMinistries
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4/16/2014 10:48:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 10:27:18 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

Fun fact: your interpretation if God's word =/= God's word.

Fun fact: It amazes me how people can claim heretical teaching yet cannot use scripture to do it. Points to the state of todays fallen away Christianity, they do not care about God's Word, they care about their vain thinking, logic, and reasoning. It is futurism and apostasy.

put abolutely no distance between their interpretation of God and God.

If God does not consider infants sinful are will not condemn them it should be quite easy to show, right? Seriously come on now.

So anyone who questions their interpretation is tantamount to questioning God.

I am not questioning you questioning me. I am questioning you questioning without using scripture. DO YOU NOT REALIZE YOUR REASON AND LOGIC IS NOT NOTHING. VAIN. VOID. NOT USEFUL TO DOCTRINE? HUH? smh

Also, the bible defines God's holiness in terms of his mercy. How do you consider it a mercy to damn a child to eternal torment?

Well grace is elected.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

No person elected will die in lost. All whom live can hear the call and accept or refuse (free-will) but the elect will always accept and those not elected will always refuse by choice. Hence if babies die and are of Christian parents are given grace by their salvation. The unsaved from unsaved parents have no grace.

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.


How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
""""How can I hand you over, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
""""How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart recoils within me;
""""my compassion grows warm and tender.
9"I will not execute my burning anger;
""""I will not again destroy Ephraim;
for I am God and not a man,
""""the Holy One in your midst,
""""and I will not come in wrath

Grown people imputed grace really does not count here.
Hosea 11:10 "They shall walk after the Lord: he shall roar like a lion: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west."
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4/16/2014 10:51:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 10:47:42 AM, TheWarrior wrote:
FLMinistries, this is some of the most twisted theology I have heard. Yes, we are born sinful. No, babies are not condemned to hell if they die. As for your condemnation of them, do you know the mind of God? Who are you to condemn anyone? When did God give you the right to condemn? We are never told to condemn. We are told to love.

I have not condemned anyone. That like using "Judge not lest ye be judge" on someone telling you something is wrong from scripture. It is not dividing the Word correctly at all. God expects to deliver His Word because it is His judgment and to declare what scripture says because He is judge. If you show how I am wrong by SCRIPTURE then I am wrong it is as simple as that. Again you opinion means nothing to the Word of God.
annanicole
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4/16/2014 10:56:03 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Anna: Have you ever seen or heard of an infant who "went astray as soon as it be born, speaking lies"? Have you? You tried to imply earlier that the gibberish they speak might be a lie or might be deceptive. Pffffffft.

FLMinistries: Scripture is from God, given by God, and hence God knows your heart. Your heart and mind speaks within itself, you know you do think do not you? God knows that and yes I, you, and anyone including infants can lie within our minds and hearts. Pffffttt. Now show infants cannot lie in their heart! Show they are not sinners or cannot commit sin.


Anna: Oh, so the infants go astray as soon as they are born - and go astray by speaking lies - but NOBODY HEARS THE LIES! According to FL, they are just lying there in the crib with their bottles, lying in their hearts. They "speak lies", but nobody hears them! We now learn, through the discernment of FL, that infants tell silent lies. He thus concludes with the momentous challenge: "Now show infants cannot lie in their heart!" LMAO

Sir, why do you now set forth an example or two of what they might lie about? After all, you set forth an absurdity then ask me to disprove the absurdity. You might as well as me to prove that a puppy or kitten isn't "lying in its heart".

It seems to me that the burden of proof on the matter lies solidly upon you. You are the one asking us to take hyperbolic language literally. You are the one asking us to believe that infants are "born astray" whereas the passage says they "go astray" - then it tells HOW they go astray, and you tell us that nobody can hear it. It's all "in their mind" or "in their heart". Well, what could an infant possibly lie about? Any ideas?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
FLMinistries
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4/16/2014 10:57:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 10:39:21 AM, annanicole wrote:
"So anyone who questions their interpretation is tantamount to questioning God. smh"

And anyone who opposes their frequently absurd notions is "attacking God".

First Witness: MadCornishBiker

"So, bring it on people, serious questions preferred but even Anna, composer and Bulproof are welcome to keep up their manic attacks on God here. Attacks on God? Yes because as he has shown in the past, attacking his people has always meant attacking him in is eyes."

I learned from that that opposing the peculiar doctrines of the WatchTower/Jehovah's Witnesses is, in reality, attacking God! Now I find that opposing the total depravity doctrines of FLMinistries is "questioning God". The trouble with all of this is that MadCornish and FLMinistries teach contradictory doctrines! Yet to oppose the former is to "attack God" and to oppose the latter is to "question God". Rather amazing.

I do not know that guy. I already by scripture shown him in error in another post. I expect the same. I find it very dishonest Anna to suggest I stand firm to not admitting when I am wrong when I have in this post OP and clearly you know I do. No, the problem is you do not. You cannot provide scripture here and the other OP to the error with scripture to support. If you are a Christian and child of God then should you not be able to provide scripture to show me I am wrong or at least show I am misapplying scripture? You did before and I admitted it was so, I am honest, I changed a whole stance(the one - children are blameless) because it was not supported by scripture but total depravity and born in sin from birth to grave is Biblical fact. We are in sinful flesh from birth, fall to the flesh because we are weak and under bondage, and are guilty because we have not the righteousness of Christ.
annanicole
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4/16/2014 10:59:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
FLMinistries: "Furthermore, if a child in a family of faith dies prior to their own convert they are imputed grace under the promise of God under "the solidarity of the family".

Anna: Are you trying to tell us that, if they both die as very young children, an unconverted child of Christians goes right on to heaven, while an unconverted child of atheists goes to hell?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
TheWarrior
Posts: 126
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4/16/2014 11:01:02 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/16/2014 10:51:22 AM, FLMinistries wrote:
At 4/16/2014 10:47:42 AM, TheWarrior wrote:
FLMinistries, this is some of the most twisted theology I have heard. Yes, we are born sinful. No, babies are not condemned to hell if they die. As for your condemnation of them, do you know the mind of God? Who are you to condemn anyone? When did God give you the right to condemn? We are never told to condemn. We are told to love.

I have not condemned anyone. That like using "Judge not lest ye be judge" on someone telling you something is wrong from scripture. It is not dividing the Word correctly at all. God expects to deliver His Word because it is His judgment and to declare what scripture says because He is judge. If you show how I am wrong by SCRIPTURE then I am wrong it is as simple as that. Again you opinion means nothing to the Word of God.
Neither does your opinion mean anything to the word of God.
https://docs.google.com...
Lead Enforcer of the DDO Revolutionary Party